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So at the sprightly age of 48 Ben Moon climbs Rainshadow. It turns out of only four ascents only one was by a "young" Brit ( Jordan Buys) and he was 31. According to the interweb only 10 to 15 Brit climbers have even done 9A.
What's wrong with the youth of today?
More seriously, it is very difficult to think of a sport, except perhaps endurance running (?), in which people approaching 50 can participate at around the highest levels. Even snooker and golf players are pretty much finished by 40 and gymnasts and athletes are done much younger. Ben Moon obviously has an outstanding talent but so do equivalent gymnasts and athletes so why can this happen in climbing?
Post edited at 13:22
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Because we are not yet at the cutting edge of what is possible i.e. when tech 7a is approaching a rest.
Also, although the current Tory government will decimate the country in the coming decade and create an unemployment crisis of epic scale, IDS will ensure that there is no possibility of a full-time dole generation of climbers pushing standards like in the 80s.
Because we are not yet at the cutting edge of what is possible i.e. when tech 7a is approaching a rest.
Also, although the current Tory government will decimate the country in the coming decade and create an unemployment crisis of epic scale, IDS will ensure that there is no possibility of a full-time dole generation of climbers pushing standards like in the 80s.
Post edited at 13:07
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In reply to Removed User:
Yeah, exactly why the music scene was so good in the '80s.
> Also, although the current Tory government will decimate the country in the coming decade and create an unemployment crisis of epic scale, IDS will ensure that there is no possibility of a full-time dole generation of climbers pushing standards like in the 80s.
Yeah, exactly why the music scene was so good in the '80s.
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In reply to Postmanpat: Most of the talented younger climbers probably cant be bothered to spend half their life working a sports climb, they are busy bouldering,doing Trad routes or Alpine stuff, and having a social life.
A very impressive and inspiring acheivement by Ben, but it is just a bit of athletic sport up a line of bolts, its not proper climbing.
A very impressive and inspiring acheivement by Ben, but it is just a bit of athletic sport up a line of bolts, its not proper climbing.
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In reply to Martin Haworth:
> Most of the talented younger climbers probably cant be bothered to spend half their life working a sports climb, they are busy bouldering,doing Trad routes or Alpine stuff, and having a social life.
>
Given the repeated threads noting the lack of people of hard trad routes this doesn't really seem to be the explanation.
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In reply to Postmanpat:
You could be right.
Maybe they spend too much time in MacDonalds or on social media.
You could be right.
Maybe they spend too much time in MacDonalds or on social media.
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In reply to Postmanpat:
No dis respect to Ben Moon but 9a is two, maybe three, grades short of cutting edge these days, isn't it ?
No dis respect to Ben Moon but 9a is two, maybe three, grades short of cutting edge these days, isn't it ?
Post edited at 13:25
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Youths are not trying hard? Strongest climbers on Earth are in their early 20s (Ondra, Megos, etc). If you refer to Alpine or trad, those disciplines require a lot of experience to push the limits, so it’s only good that younger people do not jump into it too early. Plus, climbing has changed, people are less keen to risk their neck and more keen to enjoy the actual climbing. The technical and physical side of climbing prevails on the bold and committing side (fortunately I’d say). If you refer to Britain only, I have no idea though…
Youths are not trying hard? Strongest climbers on Earth are in their early 20s (Ondra, Megos, etc). If you refer to Alpine or trad, those disciplines require a lot of experience to push the limits, so it’s only good that younger people do not jump into it too early. Plus, climbing has changed, people are less keen to risk their neck and more keen to enjoy the actual climbing. The technical and physical side of climbing prevails on the bold and committing side (fortunately I’d say). If you refer to Britain only, I have no idea though…
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Golf was actually going to be my suggestion of a sport where age doesn't really hinder advancement or [relative] success.
> ... golf players are pretty much finished by 40
Golf was actually going to be my suggestion of a sport where age doesn't really hinder advancement or [relative] success.
In reply to odari:
Think he's referring to British climbers...and it's a fair point I think. Maybe they just don't want to , which would be fair enough.
Think he's referring to British climbers...and it's a fair point I think. Maybe they just don't want to , which would be fair enough.
In reply to Postmanpat:
I guess the difference between climbing 9a outside in the UK and other sports is that it depends on having a car, living close enough to a crag with a 9a that suits you to get there a lot and the freedom to go when the conditions are perfect.
Success in competition climbing is far more accessible to young people and winning competitions is, arguably, a more 'useful' achievement for them because success in competitions is also impressive to non-climbers, including future employers.
I guess the difference between climbing 9a outside in the UK and other sports is that it depends on having a car, living close enough to a crag with a 9a that suits you to get there a lot and the freedom to go when the conditions are perfect.
Success in competition climbing is far more accessible to young people and winning competitions is, arguably, a more 'useful' achievement for them because success in competitions is also impressive to non-climbers, including future employers.
Post edited at 14:03
In reply to Postmanpat:
Crown green bowling
> More seriously, it is very difficult to think of a sport, except perhaps endurance running (?), in which people approaching 50 can participate at around the highest levels. Even snooker and golf players are pretty much finished by 40 and gymnasts and athletes
Crown green bowling
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Are we specifically referring to Brits? Because it seems that every other week I read a story about some continental foetus strolling up 8a's and beyond.
> What's wrong with the youth of today?
Are we specifically referring to Brits? Because it seems that every other week I read a story about some continental foetus strolling up 8a's and beyond.
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In reply to Postmanpat:
The reason that climbing success in general is a lot less age dependant than other sports is that the limiting factor for 99% of people is finger strenght/endurance as opposed to gross muscle strength or cardio fitness. as finger strenght is supplied by such a small muscle group it takes a long time to make gains and the only real way to do it is by climbing, so lots of mileage. the rest of your body may be past its physical peak in your mid twenties but that doesnt really matter for climbing.
as an aside i would argue that golf is also non-age dependant, a 60yr old will be just as good as they were in their 20's, but the difference is that the current crop of 20 somethings are at a level way beyond that due to advancements in technology, training, psycology, high tech analysis etc. so the courses get harder and longer to challange the new kids on the block, leaving the past generation behind who are less able to make improvements
The reason that climbing success in general is a lot less age dependant than other sports is that the limiting factor for 99% of people is finger strenght/endurance as opposed to gross muscle strength or cardio fitness. as finger strenght is supplied by such a small muscle group it takes a long time to make gains and the only real way to do it is by climbing, so lots of mileage. the rest of your body may be past its physical peak in your mid twenties but that doesnt really matter for climbing.
as an aside i would argue that golf is also non-age dependant, a 60yr old will be just as good as they were in their 20's, but the difference is that the current crop of 20 somethings are at a level way beyond that due to advancements in technology, training, psycology, high tech analysis etc. so the courses get harder and longer to challange the new kids on the block, leaving the past generation behind who are less able to make improvements
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In reply to Postmanpat:
As others have said, the point is 9a is not cutting edge. Although an incredible achievement, I wonder if 9a is comparable to lets say a 10.5 second 100m sprint of which there are some older sprinters capable of. Whereas 9b / 9b+ is cutting edge. i.e. 9.5 second 100m.
if you get what i am trying to say....
As others have said, the point is 9a is not cutting edge. Although an incredible achievement, I wonder if 9a is comparable to lets say a 10.5 second 100m sprint of which there are some older sprinters capable of. Whereas 9b / 9b+ is cutting edge. i.e. 9.5 second 100m.
if you get what i am trying to say....
In reply to Postmanpat:
How many british parents are there in strong climbing families taking their kids to the wall 5 days a week? Look at the upbringing of megos, ondra, the horst kids or any other continental/american crusher. They started really young and climbed a hell of alot.
Population of USA = 300m
population of europe = 700m
population of uk = 64m
Bigger pool of atheletes means there is an increased chance for a 'prodigy' to come along. In all honesty it seems that the continent especially has alot more choice for hard routes where people can find one to suit their style. Brits in general are climbing very hard at trad though, surely world class? e.g the wideboys, hazel findley pre-injury, emma twyfords e9 etc.
How many british parents are there in strong climbing families taking their kids to the wall 5 days a week? Look at the upbringing of megos, ondra, the horst kids or any other continental/american crusher. They started really young and climbed a hell of alot.
Population of USA = 300m
population of europe = 700m
population of uk = 64m
Bigger pool of atheletes means there is an increased chance for a 'prodigy' to come along. In all honesty it seems that the continent especially has alot more choice for hard routes where people can find one to suit their style. Brits in general are climbing very hard at trad though, surely world class? e.g the wideboys, hazel findley pre-injury, emma twyfords e9 etc.
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Did you miss the thread about Josh?:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69789
> What's wrong with the youth of today?
Did you miss the thread about Josh?:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69789
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In reply to Webster:
Is it?
> (In reply to Postmanpat)
>
> The reason that climbing success in general is a lot less age dependant than other sports
>
> The reason that climbing success in general is a lot less age dependant than other sports
Is it?
In reply to billb:
Which reinforces the original point, 9a isn't cutting edge but the youngest ascent of one by a Brit is still Malcolm Smith back when it was. Since then there are loads more kids being introduced to the sport at ever earlier ages with better access to decent facilities and coaching (virtually every wall has a junior team etc.). I think the issue is that the indoor scene is more than enough to keep them happy and that there is probably a whole glut of youngsters who could crush outdoors if they were so inclined (and some obviously are)
> As others have said, the point is 9a is not cutting edge.
Which reinforces the original point, 9a isn't cutting edge but the youngest ascent of one by a Brit is still Malcolm Smith back when it was. Since then there are loads more kids being introduced to the sport at ever earlier ages with better access to decent facilities and coaching (virtually every wall has a junior team etc.). I think the issue is that the indoor scene is more than enough to keep them happy and that there is probably a whole glut of youngsters who could crush outdoors if they were so inclined (and some obviously are)
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In reply to Tyler:
I made a list earlier of Brits who've climbed 9a. As I couldn't find one elsewhere. So there's a pretty good range age wise. Lots of 'young guns' and some older ones as well. So I'd say that there are lots of younger climbers trying hard.
Name, Route, Date 9a climbed @ age, Current Age
Steve Haston, Descente Lolitta, 2009 @ 52, 58
Ben Moon, Rainshadow , 2015 @ 48, 49
Malcom Smith, Hubble, ?? @ 18, 42
Steve Mcclure, Overshadow , 2007 @ 37, 44
Dave Macleod, A Muerte , 2007 @ 28, 36
John Gaskins, Violent New Breed, 2004 @ ??, 40s?
James Mchaffie, Big Bang, 2011 @ 29, 33
Neil Carson, Big Bang, 1996 @ ??, ??
James Pearson, Escalatamàsters , 2012 @ 25, 28
Jordan Buys, Rainshadow, 2013 @ ??, Mid 20s?
Tom Bolger, Era Vella, 2011 @ 23?, 27
Ryan Pasquil, Jungle Speed, 2013 @ ??, ??
I'm working off either their hardest route (as Gaskins and Mcclure have climbed 9a+) or their first 9a. So for people who've only ever climbed 9a, I've gone for their first 9a. For people who've done 9a and 9a+ I've gone for their first 9a+. Not sure if Stevie Haston has done harder before the 9a at 52, couldn't find a reference.
I'm going with Hubble being 9a, not 8c+. However Malc Smith has done other 9as.
There's probably some inaccuracies, please feel free to fix stuff.
I made a list earlier of Brits who've climbed 9a. As I couldn't find one elsewhere. So there's a pretty good range age wise. Lots of 'young guns' and some older ones as well. So I'd say that there are lots of younger climbers trying hard.
Name, Route, Date 9a climbed @ age, Current Age
Steve Haston, Descente Lolitta, 2009 @ 52, 58
Ben Moon, Rainshadow , 2015 @ 48, 49
Malcom Smith, Hubble, ?? @ 18, 42
Steve Mcclure, Overshadow , 2007 @ 37, 44
Dave Macleod, A Muerte , 2007 @ 28, 36
John Gaskins, Violent New Breed, 2004 @ ??, 40s?
James Mchaffie, Big Bang, 2011 @ 29, 33
Neil Carson, Big Bang, 1996 @ ??, ??
James Pearson, Escalatamàsters , 2012 @ 25, 28
Jordan Buys, Rainshadow, 2013 @ ??, Mid 20s?
Tom Bolger, Era Vella, 2011 @ 23?, 27
Ryan Pasquil, Jungle Speed, 2013 @ ??, ??
I'm working off either their hardest route (as Gaskins and Mcclure have climbed 9a+) or their first 9a. So for people who've only ever climbed 9a, I've gone for their first 9a. For people who've done 9a and 9a+ I've gone for their first 9a+. Not sure if Stevie Haston has done harder before the 9a at 52, couldn't find a reference.
I'm going with Hubble being 9a, not 8c+. However Malc Smith has done other 9as.
There's probably some inaccuracies, please feel free to fix stuff.
Post edited at 21:40
In reply to mattrm:
I think it gets 8c+ in the latest Siurana guide, but I haven't checked.
And I think Steve Dunning has done Hubble.
> Dave Macleod, A Muerte , 9a @ 28, 36
I think it gets 8c+ in the latest Siurana guide, but I haven't checked.
And I think Steve Dunning has done Hubble.
Post edited at 21:46
In reply to mattrm:
Born April 1970, so 26 when he did it & 45 now.
> I made a list earlier of Brits who've climbed 9a. As I couldn't find one elsewhere. So there's a pretty good range age wise. Lots of 'young guns' and some older ones as well. So I'd say that there are lots of younger climbers trying hard.
> Name, Route, Date 9a climbed @ age, Current Age
> Neil Carson, Big Bang, 1996 @ ??, ??
Born April 1970, so 26 when he did it & 45 now.
In reply to mattrm:
Add to that the two Scottish 9as, Hunger and Fight The Feeling by Smith and MacLeod respectively.
> I made a list earlier of Brits who've climbed 9a. As I couldn't find one elsewhere. So there's a pretty good range age wise. Lots of 'young guns' and some older ones as well. So I'd say that there are lots of younger climbers trying hard.
> Malcom Smith, Hubble, ?? @ 18, 42
> Dave Macleod, A Muerte , 2007 @ 28, 36
Add to that the two Scottish 9as, Hunger and Fight The Feeling by Smith and MacLeod respectively.
In reply to Postmanpat:
You would imagine that someone like Franco Cookson who does new ascents of E8 - E10's on a regular basis would have loads of 9a sport ticks.
Boggy
You would imagine that someone like Franco Cookson who does new ascents of E8 - E10's on a regular basis would have loads of 9a sport ticks.
Boggy
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In reply to kwoods:
I'm just putting down the first 9a the climber has done, not listing all the 9as that they've done. Most folk on the list have done more than one 9a.
Anyway updates:
Name, Route, Date 9a climbed @ age, Current Age
Steve Haston, Descente Lolitta, 2009 @ 52, 58
Ben Moon, Rainshadow , 2015 @ 48, 49
Malcom Smith, Hubble, 1991 @ 18, 42
Steve Mcclure, Overshadow , 2007 @ 37, 44
Dave Macleod, A Muerte , 2007 @ 28, 36
John Gaskins, Violent New Breed, 2004 @ ??, 40s?
James Mchaffie, Big Bang, 2011 @ 29, 33
Neil Carson, Big Bang, 1996 @ 26, 45
James Pearson, Escalatamàsters , 2012 @ 25, 28
Jordan Buys, Rainshadow, 2013 @ ??, Mid 20s?
Tom Bolger, Era Vella, 2011 @ 23?, 27
Ryan Pasquil, Jungle Speed, 2013 @ ??, ??
Alex Barrows, Era Vella, 2015 @ 20s?, 20s?
I'm working off either their hardest route (as Gaskins and Mcclure have climbed 9a+) or their first 9a. So for people who've only ever climbed 9a, I've gone for their first 9a. For people who've done 9a and 9a+ I've gone for their first 9a+. Not sure if Stevie Haston has done harder before the 9a at 52, couldn't find a reference.
1poundsocks - This Steve Dunning? - http://www.scarpa.co.uk/scarpa-team/steve-dunning/ - no reference to 9a there. Any one got a source?
Anyone else?
I'm just putting down the first 9a the climber has done, not listing all the 9as that they've done. Most folk on the list have done more than one 9a.
Anyway updates:
Name, Route, Date 9a climbed @ age, Current Age
Steve Haston, Descente Lolitta, 2009 @ 52, 58
Ben Moon, Rainshadow , 2015 @ 48, 49
Malcom Smith, Hubble, 1991 @ 18, 42
Steve Mcclure, Overshadow , 2007 @ 37, 44
Dave Macleod, A Muerte , 2007 @ 28, 36
John Gaskins, Violent New Breed, 2004 @ ??, 40s?
James Mchaffie, Big Bang, 2011 @ 29, 33
Neil Carson, Big Bang, 1996 @ 26, 45
James Pearson, Escalatamàsters , 2012 @ 25, 28
Jordan Buys, Rainshadow, 2013 @ ??, Mid 20s?
Tom Bolger, Era Vella, 2011 @ 23?, 27
Ryan Pasquil, Jungle Speed, 2013 @ ??, ??
Alex Barrows, Era Vella, 2015 @ 20s?, 20s?
I'm working off either their hardest route (as Gaskins and Mcclure have climbed 9a+) or their first 9a. So for people who've only ever climbed 9a, I've gone for their first 9a. For people who've done 9a and 9a+ I've gone for their first 9a+. Not sure if Stevie Haston has done harder before the 9a at 52, couldn't find a reference.
1poundsocks - This Steve Dunning? - http://www.scarpa.co.uk/scarpa-team/steve-dunning/ - no reference to 9a there. Any one got a source?
Anyone else?
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Meanwhile in Austria:
14 year old Jakob Kronberger from Saltzburg, Austria, has repeated Klem Loskot's Intermezzo XY gelöst, 9a, at Plombergstein not far from his home.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69798
I dunno does this prove or disprove whatever it was you were trying to say :p
Meanwhile in Austria:
14 year old Jakob Kronberger from Saltzburg, Austria, has repeated Klem Loskot's Intermezzo XY gelöst, 9a, at Plombergstein not far from his home.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69798
I dunno does this prove or disprove whatever it was you were trying to say :p
In reply to Postmanpat:
Surely the question should be 'why aren't all the older climbers trying harder!'
J
Surely the question should be 'why aren't all the older climbers trying harder!'
J
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In reply to mattrm:
Well, he's climbed Hubble which is now 9a?
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=54795 (That
does have Rich Simpson down as an ascentionist though......)
> 1poundsocks - This Steve Dunning? - http://www.scarpa.co.uk/scarpa-team/steve-dunning/ - no reference to 9a there. Any one got a source?
Well, he's climbed Hubble which is now 9a?
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=54795 (That
does have Rich Simpson down as an ascentionist though......)
In reply to mattrm:
Hmm, soyou list Ben's 1st 9a as Rainshadow but on the very next line you list Malc's 1st 9a as Hubble. Can you remind me who did the FA of Hubble?
Hmm, soyou list Ben's 1st 9a as Rainshadow but on the very next line you list Malc's 1st 9a as Hubble. Can you remind me who did the FA of Hubble?
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In reply to Graeme Alderson:
Valid point. When I started the list, I just put Ben down first, without thinking about Hubble. Amending:
Name, Route, Date 9a climbed @ age, Current Age
Steve Haston, Descente Lolitta, 2009 @ 52, 58
Ben Moon, Hubble , 1990 @ 24, 49
Malcom Smith, Hubble, 1991 @ 18, 42
Steve Mcclure, Overshadow , 2007 @ 37, 44
Dave Macleod, A Muerte , 2007 @ 28, 36
John Gaskins, Violent New Breed, 2004 @ ??, 40s?
James Mchaffie, Big Bang, 2011 @ 29, 33
Alex Barrows, Era Vella, 2015 @ 28, 28
Neil Carson, Big Bang, 1996 @ 26, 45
James Pearson, Escalatamàsters , 2012 @ 25, 28
Jordan Buys, Rainshadow, 2013 @ ??, Mid 20s?
Tom Bolger, Era Vella, 2011 @ 23?, 27
Ryan Pasquil, Jungle Speed, 2013 @ ??, ??
Steve Dunning, Hubble, ?? @ ??, ??
AJM - Thanks, added Steve to the list.
John Roberts - So Jordan is really? Late 20s? Early 30s? He looks young I'll give him that.
Any other folk who I'm missing?
Valid point. When I started the list, I just put Ben down first, without thinking about Hubble. Amending:
Name, Route, Date 9a climbed @ age, Current Age
Steve Haston, Descente Lolitta, 2009 @ 52, 58
Ben Moon, Hubble , 1990 @ 24, 49
Malcom Smith, Hubble, 1991 @ 18, 42
Steve Mcclure, Overshadow , 2007 @ 37, 44
Dave Macleod, A Muerte , 2007 @ 28, 36
John Gaskins, Violent New Breed, 2004 @ ??, 40s?
James Mchaffie, Big Bang, 2011 @ 29, 33
Alex Barrows, Era Vella, 2015 @ 28, 28
Neil Carson, Big Bang, 1996 @ 26, 45
James Pearson, Escalatamàsters , 2012 @ 25, 28
Jordan Buys, Rainshadow, 2013 @ ??, Mid 20s?
Tom Bolger, Era Vella, 2011 @ 23?, 27
Ryan Pasquil, Jungle Speed, 2013 @ ??, ??
Steve Dunning, Hubble, ?? @ ??, ??
AJM - Thanks, added Steve to the list.
John Roberts - So Jordan is really? Late 20s? Early 30s? He looks young I'll give him that.
Any other folk who I'm missing?
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In reply to galpinos:
well when you consider there are 14 yr olds climbing 9a and some guy recently climbing his first 8c (i think, something hard anyway) in his 60's that kinda proves my point
> Is it?
well when you consider there are 14 yr olds climbing 9a and some guy recently climbing his first 8c (i think, something hard anyway) in his 60's that kinda proves my point
In reply to Webster:
How does that prove your point? The current cutting edge (for men) is 9a onsight, 9b+ redpoint. I don't see any old dudes doing this, it guys in their late teens through to early/mid thirties. The same "window of top end performance" as most sports. The dip in physical prowess as you approach the mid thirties is offset by experience/technique.
Climbing 8c in your sixties is very impressive (who is this, some context might help) but is a fair way of the cutting edge and maybe hints that this guy could have climbed 9b in his youth, if in his formative years he could have made good use of the training knowledge and facilities available today. I hope to climb better when I'm 40 than I did when I was 20 (I climb harder now than I did when I was 20). That's not because age doesn't matter, it's because I didn't put the effort in back then.
> well when you consider there are 14 yr olds climbing 9a and some guy recently climbing his first 8c (i think, something hard anyway) in his 60's that kinda proves my point
How does that prove your point? The current cutting edge (for men) is 9a onsight, 9b+ redpoint. I don't see any old dudes doing this, it guys in their late teens through to early/mid thirties. The same "window of top end performance" as most sports. The dip in physical prowess as you approach the mid thirties is offset by experience/technique.
Climbing 8c in your sixties is very impressive (who is this, some context might help) but is a fair way of the cutting edge and maybe hints that this guy could have climbed 9b in his youth, if in his formative years he could have made good use of the training knowledge and facilities available today. I hope to climb better when I'm 40 than I did when I was 20 (I climb harder now than I did when I was 20). That's not because age doesn't matter, it's because I didn't put the effort in back then.
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In reply to galpinos:
Could be Edu Marin's dad....i think he ticked 8b+.
> Climbing 8c in your sixties is very impressive (who is this, some context might help)
Could be Edu Marin's dad....i think he ticked 8b+.
In reply to galpinos:
This isnt who i was thinking of, but...http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/florida-514b-8c-project-ag...
and...http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/lee-sheftel-climbs-5-13b-at-68-years-o...
This isnt who i was thinking of, but...http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/florida-514b-8c-project-ag...
and...http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/lee-sheftel-climbs-5-13b-at-68-years-o...
Post edited at 15:14
In reply to Webster:
Your links, though impressive, say old people don't climb as hard as young people. Isn't that the opposite of your point?
Your links, though impressive, say old people don't climb as hard as young people. Isn't that the opposite of your point?
In reply to galpinos:
they are climbing significntly harder than probably 99.9% of young people, i think that backs up my point!
they are climbing significntly harder than probably 99.9% of young people, i think that backs up my point!
In reply to Bogwalloper:
but what sport grade would those E8-E10 equate to?
7bish maybe to around 8a ish ?
but what sport grade would those E8-E10 equate to?
7bish maybe to around 8a ish ?
In reply to Tony Simpson: Bold, death E10 would be in the 8a/+ range. Safer E10 in the 8b/+ range. For reference McCloud's Hells Lum E10 is very dangerous 8a+, Mawsons Pembroke E10 is bold but safeish 8b+.
There is a new group of hard sport climbing youths coming through. I expect some big ascents in the next few years.
Andy F.
There is a new group of hard sport climbing youths coming through. I expect some big ascents in the next few years.
Andy F.
In reply to Webster:
I think we'll have to agree to disagree but I'll have one last go......
These three examples wouldn't be in the top one, five, ten thousand ascents this year. That doesn't seem very significant statistically?
I think we'll have to agree to disagree but I'll have one last go......
These three examples wouldn't be in the top one, five, ten thousand ascents this year. That doesn't seem very significant statistically?
In reply to Webster:
Ryan Giggs was significantly better than 99% of young footballers at 40, does that mean football ability is non-age dependant or is it that I've cherry picked one example and ignored the fact that his ability did deteriorate with age and also that, good as he was, there are people younger than him who were better?
> they are climbing significntly harder than probably 99.9% of young people, i think that backs up my point!
Ryan Giggs was significantly better than 99% of young footballers at 40, does that mean football ability is non-age dependant or is it that I've cherry picked one example and ignored the fact that his ability did deteriorate with age and also that, good as he was, there are people younger than him who were better?
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In reply to Postmanpat:
I don't know why there aren't more top British sport climbers in their 20's, I'd hazard a guess that the best climbers get syphoned off into comps, bouldering or trad at the moment whereas in the 80's almost all our best climbers were totally focussed on sport, at least for a large part of their prime. So in that sense young British climbers aren't trying, at least not at sport climbing.
As to why Ben Moon has peaked (again) at 48? In almost every sport you can think of where physical ability is the dominant requirement for success people peak in their 20's or early 30's and there's no good reason to see why climbing and sport climbing in particular should be different, at any given time the best climbers in the world are that age as was Ben when he was at the top. I think the reason he is now able to replicate the standard he was at when in his 20's must be down to better training.
Training techniques and our understanding of training has advanced hugely since the 80's. Moon and co were certainly training hard back then, the first generation to push training to that level, hence the massive rise in standards through the 80's but they were making it up as they went along and probably spent a lot of time doing things that weren't as beneficial as they thought they were and not doing things that would have been.
I don't know why there aren't more top British sport climbers in their 20's, I'd hazard a guess that the best climbers get syphoned off into comps, bouldering or trad at the moment whereas in the 80's almost all our best climbers were totally focussed on sport, at least for a large part of their prime. So in that sense young British climbers aren't trying, at least not at sport climbing.
As to why Ben Moon has peaked (again) at 48? In almost every sport you can think of where physical ability is the dominant requirement for success people peak in their 20's or early 30's and there's no good reason to see why climbing and sport climbing in particular should be different, at any given time the best climbers in the world are that age as was Ben when he was at the top. I think the reason he is now able to replicate the standard he was at when in his 20's must be down to better training.
Training techniques and our understanding of training has advanced hugely since the 80's. Moon and co were certainly training hard back then, the first generation to push training to that level, hence the massive rise in standards through the 80's but they were making it up as they went along and probably spent a lot of time doing things that weren't as beneficial as they thought they were and not doing things that would have been.
In reply to Postmanpat:
9a soon? Incredibly highball for her too!
https://www.facebook.com/LittleZenMonkey?pnref=story
(sorry for non FB users (I'm too lazy to find another link)
9a soon? Incredibly highball for her too!
https://www.facebook.com/LittleZenMonkey?pnref=story
(sorry for non FB users (I'm too lazy to find another link)
In reply to pec:
It's also worth bearing in mind the fact the routes are very different. Ben said (can't find the source) that he isn't as strong as he was in his prime but has managed to get very fit and he's climbed a 9a that suited his current strengths. Hubble is a different kettle of fish.
It's also worth bearing in mind the fact the routes are very different. Ben said (can't find the source) that he isn't as strong as he was in his prime but has managed to get very fit and he's climbed a 9a that suited his current strengths. Hubble is a different kettle of fish.
In reply to Postmanpat:
I might be being over simplistic here, but do you think that the wonderful British climate may have a bearing on things?
European and US climbers probably get a much longer season of good weather in which to develop on actual rock, than British climbers do.
Just a thought?
I might be being over simplistic here, but do you think that the wonderful British climate may have a bearing on things?
European and US climbers probably get a much longer season of good weather in which to develop on actual rock, than British climbers do.
Just a thought?
1
In reply to GrahamD:
I think the topic is aimed at this country because there seem to be plenty of younger climbers doing amazing things elsewhere in the world. And in that case its only one grade off, and only one person has climbed harder and on only one occasion.
>
> No dis respect to Ben Moon but 9a is two, maybe three, grades short of cutting edge these days, isn't it ?
> No dis respect to Ben Moon but 9a is two, maybe three, grades short of cutting edge these days, isn't it ?
I think the topic is aimed at this country because there seem to be plenty of younger climbers doing amazing things elsewhere in the world. And in that case its only one grade off, and only one person has climbed harder and on only one occasion.
In reply to Postmanpat:
Very interesting topic. I've been up to Malham and Kilnsey several times over the past couple of years. At first I was fully expecting to see hyper strong young climbers cruising up the hard routes. But on every visit its been the exact opposite. Most of the climbers were in their 40s and 50s. The lone exceptions were Jordan Buys at Kilnsey and Josh Ibbetson at Malham.
Interestingly though this seems to only apply to male climbers. The most cutting edge climbs by British women are by young women at the moment. However overseas Muriel Sarkany climbed 9a (still the top female grade) at age 40.
One possible reason for the ability for climbers to climb hard across a large age range could be that climbing is primarily mental. I've heard it said climbing is 70% mental and so one's mental abilities probably don't decline anywhere near as fast as the physical with age.
Very interesting topic. I've been up to Malham and Kilnsey several times over the past couple of years. At first I was fully expecting to see hyper strong young climbers cruising up the hard routes. But on every visit its been the exact opposite. Most of the climbers were in their 40s and 50s. The lone exceptions were Jordan Buys at Kilnsey and Josh Ibbetson at Malham.
Interestingly though this seems to only apply to male climbers. The most cutting edge climbs by British women are by young women at the moment. However overseas Muriel Sarkany climbed 9a (still the top female grade) at age 40.
One possible reason for the ability for climbers to climb hard across a large age range could be that climbing is primarily mental. I've heard it said climbing is 70% mental and so one's mental abilities probably don't decline anywhere near as fast as the physical with age.
In reply to pec:
I'm surprised if the best of the younger crop gravitate more towards trad than sport. Logically one would have thought the opposite given the way most climbers start nowadays (sport climbing indoors). Also there seem to be more news articles etc about teens climbing 8a than E6.
I'm surprised if the best of the younger crop gravitate more towards trad than sport. Logically one would have thought the opposite given the way most climbers start nowadays (sport climbing indoors). Also there seem to be more news articles etc about teens climbing 8a than E6.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Isn't that just a reporting bias? I.e. Youth climbs 8a probably gets a news article, but parents helping their kids headpoint an E6 isn't news per se. (still a terrific effort, both for the climber and the no doubt as gripped belayer!)
Isn't that just a reporting bias? I.e. Youth climbs 8a probably gets a news article, but parents helping their kids headpoint an E6 isn't news per se. (still a terrific effort, both for the climber and the no doubt as gripped belayer!)
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Ask the next dozen climbers you meet to name Britains top 3 climbers, chances are the names that will crop up are Dave Macleod, Dave Birkett, James McHaffie, Ryan Pasquill etc. They all do some sport climbing but they've all made their name on trad. For the past decade or two most of our top climbers have gravitated towards trad as their main activity and presumably this influences the next generation.
I don't know why our top climbers drifted from sport which dominated in the eighties and nineties to trad this century but they did. Perhaps one day it will flip back again?
> I'm surprised if the best of the younger crop gravitate more towards trad than sport. Logically one would have thought the opposite given the way most climbers start nowadays (sport climbing indoors). Also there seem to be more news articles etc about teens climbing 8a than E6. >
Ask the next dozen climbers you meet to name Britains top 3 climbers, chances are the names that will crop up are Dave Macleod, Dave Birkett, James McHaffie, Ryan Pasquill etc. They all do some sport climbing but they've all made their name on trad. For the past decade or two most of our top climbers have gravitated towards trad as their main activity and presumably this influences the next generation.
I don't know why our top climbers drifted from sport which dominated in the eighties and nineties to trad this century but they did. Perhaps one day it will flip back again?
In reply to stp:
Are you referring to Steve McClure and Overshadow? John Gaskins has climbed 9a+, Violent New Breed at Giggleswick, but I don't think it's been repeated.
> And in that case its only one grade off, and only one person has climbed harder and on only one occasion.
Are you referring to Steve McClure and Overshadow? John Gaskins has climbed 9a+, Violent New Breed at Giggleswick, but I don't think it's been repeated.
In reply to pec:
All near the top of the game in terms of UK sport climbing as well of course.
I think it's more likely competitions and bouldering has occupied many of the best young climbers than trad.
> Dave Macleod, ... James McHaffie, Ryan Pasquill
>
>
All near the top of the game in terms of UK sport climbing as well of course.
I think it's more likely competitions and bouldering has occupied many of the best young climbers than trad.
1
In reply to dr_botnik:
It could be but I get the impression the latter is less common, perhaps for good reason!
> Isn't that just a reporting bias? I.e. Youth climbs 8a probably gets a news article, but parents helping their kids headpoint an E6 isn't news per se. (still a terrific effort, both for the climber and the no doubt as gripped belayer!)
It could be but I get the impression the latter is less common, perhaps for good reason!
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Yeah, I remembered that after I posted. Thanks for pointing that out.
> John Gaskins has climbed 9a+, Violent New Breed at Giggleswick
Yeah, I remembered that after I posted. Thanks for pointing that out.
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