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Hi , I've seen a few articles mention tri cams to be useful for the many pockets found in the dolomitic rock , does anyone know a particular size that they found most common/useful / worth doubling up maybe ? Any advice much appreciated
Post edited at 12:59
In reply to solomonkey:
I found them useful but not really essential. I think I took 3 or 4 no larger than size 3 possibly 2.5. I can check when I get home but I wasn't using them frequently enough to need lots of inbetween sizes.
Maybe 0.5,1,2,3 or 0.5,1.5,2.5
Like I said though not necessary but useful.
I found them useful but not really essential. I think I took 3 or 4 no larger than size 3 possibly 2.5. I can check when I get home but I wasn't using them frequently enough to need lots of inbetween sizes.
Maybe 0.5,1,2,3 or 0.5,1.5,2.5
Like I said though not necessary but useful.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Ok cheers stevo , 0.5 1,2,3 sounds good to me , I'm guessing once the pockets get so big you can stuff cams in them !? Either way I suppose time will tell
Ok cheers stevo , 0.5 1,2,3 sounds good to me , I'm guessing once the pockets get so big you can stuff cams in them !? Either way I suppose time will tell
In reply to solomonkey:
I wouldn't bother, for routes up to VIII I would only carry one set of wires, 3 cams, 7 quick draws and a few slings. There will be bundles of run out pitches and old crappy pegs to clip....and tri cams take too long to place anyway don't they?!
I wouldn't bother, for routes up to VIII I would only carry one set of wires, 3 cams, 7 quick draws and a few slings. There will be bundles of run out pitches and old crappy pegs to clip....and tri cams take too long to place anyway don't they?!
In reply to GirlieEyes: cheers for that girlieeyes ,
They might be fiddly to get in but surely that's part of the fun ?¿
Might take a couple even if just for novelty sake
They might be fiddly to get in but surely that's part of the fun ?¿
Might take a couple even if just for novelty sake
1
In reply to GirlieEyes:
Wow you are braver than me!
Did you really lead VIII with your best uk grade being E1?
> I wouldn't bother, for routes up to VIII I would only carry one set of wires, 3 cams, 7 quick draws and a few slings. There will be bundles of run out pitches and old crappy pegs to clip....and tri cams take too long to place anyway don't they?!
Wow you are braver than me!
Did you really lead VIII with your best uk grade being E1?
In reply to solomonkey:
I took a standard uk mountain rack for the same grade route you would attempt here.
Anything multi pitch near my limit I'd carry 2.5 sets of nuts (the half set are super lights), cams, a few hexes (these are useful on crozzly mountain rock), plenty of slings (those ones made of cord are nifty in the doloies), when carrying tricams you can carry less nets / hexes of the same passive size, and/or possibly less cams depending on route difficulty.
I think I did my best multipitch lead in the dollies (hard HVS E1 border)
I was climbing around Sella and the rock there is dolomite not limestone as you can find some other places. I found there was quite a lot of gear and cams were pretty reliable in the rock (although I didn't actually fall on them, they felt good when tested if you know what I mean - I've climbed on a lot of limestone where they don't). That said runouts do occur also, pretty standard stuff overall compared with UK mountain rock.
You certainly can't rely on there being pegs, however when there are pegs they are often good and maintained. It's not uncommon to find them on the crux pitch on the crux moves, but far from always being the case. The belays are quite often pegs, but IMO they often need backing up as one of the two may be old or wobble or in slightly dubious rock etc.
Cheers,
Stevo
I took a standard uk mountain rack for the same grade route you would attempt here.
Anything multi pitch near my limit I'd carry 2.5 sets of nuts (the half set are super lights), cams, a few hexes (these are useful on crozzly mountain rock), plenty of slings (those ones made of cord are nifty in the doloies), when carrying tricams you can carry less nets / hexes of the same passive size, and/or possibly less cams depending on route difficulty.
I think I did my best multipitch lead in the dollies (hard HVS E1 border)
I was climbing around Sella and the rock there is dolomite not limestone as you can find some other places. I found there was quite a lot of gear and cams were pretty reliable in the rock (although I didn't actually fall on them, they felt good when tested if you know what I mean - I've climbed on a lot of limestone where they don't). That said runouts do occur also, pretty standard stuff overall compared with UK mountain rock.
You certainly can't rely on there being pegs, however when there are pegs they are often good and maintained. It's not uncommon to find them on the crux pitch on the crux moves, but far from always being the case. The belays are quite often pegs, but IMO they often need backing up as one of the two may be old or wobble or in slightly dubious rock etc.
Cheers,
Stevo
Post edited at 08:52
In reply to solomonkey:
Regarding the tricams they definitely went in places nothing else would (quite often shallow crozzly pockets but not always the smallest tricams.) and sometimes when I was starting to get run out. I probably placed at least one on every climb but not every pitch.
Regarding the tricams they definitely went in places nothing else would (quite often shallow crozzly pockets but not always the smallest tricams.) and sometimes when I was starting to get run out. I probably placed at least one on every climb but not every pitch.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Thanks for the great Reply stevo , much appreciated , I have read other accounts of their usefulness , - I could pick your brains on info , but ,,,,, if you were to double up on any particular sizes of tri cam what would you choose ? Very small/ small or medium ? Just looking at getting a few more
Thanks for the great Reply stevo , much appreciated , I have read other accounts of their usefulness , - I could pick your brains on info , but ,,,,, if you were to double up on any particular sizes of tri cam what would you choose ? Very small/ small or medium ? Just looking at getting a few more
In reply to solomonkey:
Don't think I would double up on a size of tricam for the Dollies carrying a nut / hex / cam of the same size would be more useful.
As a point of interest I carried about 3-4 tricams on most climbs, my bolder and slightly better climbing partner didn't use them.
Don't think I would double up on a size of tricam for the Dollies carrying a nut / hex / cam of the same size would be more useful.
As a point of interest I carried about 3-4 tricams on most climbs, my bolder and slightly better climbing partner didn't use them.
In reply to solomonkey:
I think the amount of gear you carry should depend on a lot of factors such as route difficulty, length, walkin, likelihood of peg belays and pegs / bolts on the routes (don't think I saw a bolt on a trad route btw).
If you are just climbing a 200 odd metre route near the road, near your limit you will likely need nearly as much gear as you would in the UK. Especially if you partner is better than you and climbing the harder better pegged crux pitches leaving you on the easier (but hard enough for you) less pegged pitches. We probably did whittle down the nuts and cams from a full uk rack on most routes but its handy to have all your gear with you so you can do it on a per route basis.
I found the camp size 2 red ballnut and micro cams going down to 8-9mm really handy.
I think the amount of gear you carry should depend on a lot of factors such as route difficulty, length, walkin, likelihood of peg belays and pegs / bolts on the routes (don't think I saw a bolt on a trad route btw).
If you are just climbing a 200 odd metre route near the road, near your limit you will likely need nearly as much gear as you would in the UK. Especially if you partner is better than you and climbing the harder better pegged crux pitches leaving you on the easier (but hard enough for you) less pegged pitches. We probably did whittle down the nuts and cams from a full uk rack on most routes but its handy to have all your gear with you so you can do it on a per route basis.
I found the camp size 2 red ballnut and micro cams going down to 8-9mm really handy.
Post edited at 09:49
In reply to GirlieEyes:
Not sure if you know what VIII is......??
http://i.stack.imgur.com/YxnxW.gif - VIII is E4 or E5 so I would recommend a bit more gear and more respect for the route.
But that just me
> I wouldn't bother, for routes up to VIII I would only carry one set of wires, 3 cams, 7 quick draws and a few slings. .....
Not sure if you know what VIII is......??
http://i.stack.imgur.com/YxnxW.gif - VIII is E4 or E5 so I would recommend a bit more gear and more respect for the route.
But that just me
In reply to solomonkey:
I tend not to bother with tricams - can't say I've ever thought "damn - I could really use a tricam here". My rack out there is normally 4-7 cams (0.5-2 or 3 camalot, and micros) depending on the route - there are often wide cracks and on less traveled routes it can be useful to have a large cam or two, but more often than not there will be pegs on these sorts of sections as most italians don't carry large gear. I usually carry a set of nuts and 8-12 extenders depending on the difficulty of the route, and a bunch of dyneema slings for threads. Especially at easier grades where routes tend to be on slabbier water worn solid grey rock, you tend to get plenty of good threads. Often these will have insitu threads but they are often a bit old and buggered. I rarely use micro placements and on easy routes I don't carry them. You do often get finicky placements and it can take some time to get your eye in. So tailor your rack. Practice climbing with less gear before you get out there as it makes walk ins much more pleasant carrying a light rack, and if you are on well established routes, the fixed gear is usually frequent, if not always good. Very often you can slide in a nut above a dodgy old peg and clip both with the same runner, or equalise them with a sling. Yes, sometimes you get little round pockets which would suit tricams, but would I buy some especially? Probably not - you can often sneak a cam in...
I tend not to bother with tricams - can't say I've ever thought "damn - I could really use a tricam here". My rack out there is normally 4-7 cams (0.5-2 or 3 camalot, and micros) depending on the route - there are often wide cracks and on less traveled routes it can be useful to have a large cam or two, but more often than not there will be pegs on these sorts of sections as most italians don't carry large gear. I usually carry a set of nuts and 8-12 extenders depending on the difficulty of the route, and a bunch of dyneema slings for threads. Especially at easier grades where routes tend to be on slabbier water worn solid grey rock, you tend to get plenty of good threads. Often these will have insitu threads but they are often a bit old and buggered. I rarely use micro placements and on easy routes I don't carry them. You do often get finicky placements and it can take some time to get your eye in. So tailor your rack. Practice climbing with less gear before you get out there as it makes walk ins much more pleasant carrying a light rack, and if you are on well established routes, the fixed gear is usually frequent, if not always good. Very often you can slide in a nut above a dodgy old peg and clip both with the same runner, or equalise them with a sling. Yes, sometimes you get little round pockets which would suit tricams, but would I buy some especially? Probably not - you can often sneak a cam in...
In reply to beardy mike:
Ok thanks mike , very helpful , as for the tri cams , think I might take a small one if just for novelty sake , planning to go light as poss but regarding number of quickdraws , , , would you suggest all long , mostly long , or a mix ?
Ok thanks mike , very helpful , as for the tri cams , think I might take a small one if just for novelty sake , planning to go light as poss but regarding number of quickdraws , , , would you suggest all long , mostly long , or a mix ?
In reply to solomonkey:
I usually use a mix of:
120 slings for threads, most likely 8mm with a wiregate crab, probably 4-5
60 slings as a sling draw, probably 4 of them
all other extenders as a doubled up sling draw with 30cm slings.
Go for 8-10mm dyneema. The sling draws give you potentially 8-12 15cm extenders, plus threads for difficult to clip pegs which have been hammered into corners, slings for flakes, slings for belays or stacking ropes with.
I'd also suggest a rope lanyard, like the Beal ones or maybe the adjustable petzl lanyards as these can make setting belays up more efficient, especially if you are lading in blocks rather than swinging leads - I much prefer doing it this way as the second gets a proper break, the leader gets into the groove and you don't have to swap gear at every belay which can cut a lot of time off each belay, especially when you hit routes with masses of fixed gear and all you're doing is giving the leader a load of extenders back... but that's my system, everybody else will have their own version. I've also gone for untying and retying at each belay to avoid flaking a rope - it's actually surprisingly quick, but you must stay on the ball while you're retying obviously. but then I guess it depends on the length of the route you are doing and the rope system you're using - with a single rope its fantastic...
I usually use a mix of:
120 slings for threads, most likely 8mm with a wiregate crab, probably 4-5
60 slings as a sling draw, probably 4 of them
all other extenders as a doubled up sling draw with 30cm slings.
Go for 8-10mm dyneema. The sling draws give you potentially 8-12 15cm extenders, plus threads for difficult to clip pegs which have been hammered into corners, slings for flakes, slings for belays or stacking ropes with.
I'd also suggest a rope lanyard, like the Beal ones or maybe the adjustable petzl lanyards as these can make setting belays up more efficient, especially if you are lading in blocks rather than swinging leads - I much prefer doing it this way as the second gets a proper break, the leader gets into the groove and you don't have to swap gear at every belay which can cut a lot of time off each belay, especially when you hit routes with masses of fixed gear and all you're doing is giving the leader a load of extenders back... but that's my system, everybody else will have their own version. I've also gone for untying and retying at each belay to avoid flaking a rope - it's actually surprisingly quick, but you must stay on the ball while you're retying obviously. but then I guess it depends on the length of the route you are doing and the rope system you're using - with a single rope its fantastic...
In reply to beardy mike:
My reasoning on the micro cams and ballnut (which we already owned) was it meant we didn't need to carry pegs and are good get out of jail cards if you do end up off route and at little weight cost. Depending on the route and advice even pegs and a hammer are sometimes advised!
My reasoning on the micro cams and ballnut (which we already owned) was it meant we didn't need to carry pegs and are good get out of jail cards if you do end up off route and at little weight cost. Depending on the route and advice even pegs and a hammer are sometimes advised!
In reply to solomonkey:
My take on the advice given so far is:
tricams, ballnut, micro cams not essential, but if you end up off route somehow could be very and you will place them anyway quite often on rock that wouldn't yield a good placement of other types.
Climbing something more remote you will likely want to: drop your grade anyway as its remote, carry less gear for the walk in, both these go hand in hand.
If you want to push your grade, likely it won't be remote and you'll may well be glad of the extra gear, carrying something close to what a UK rack would give you, depending how bold your are. Also bare in mind the majority of the pegs tend to be on the crux pitch, if your partner is better than you and leading these it may leave you on the less pegged pitches and more in need of gear.
If you are climbing something 200 metres long (ie quite short) near the road close to your limit I don't see the point in unnecessarily running it out. it's decreasing safety not adding to it, as an early start can still see you done by lunch time anyway on a possibly stormy pm forecast.
My take on the advice given so far is:
tricams, ballnut, micro cams not essential, but if you end up off route somehow could be very and you will place them anyway quite often on rock that wouldn't yield a good placement of other types.
Climbing something more remote you will likely want to: drop your grade anyway as its remote, carry less gear for the walk in, both these go hand in hand.
If you want to push your grade, likely it won't be remote and you'll may well be glad of the extra gear, carrying something close to what a UK rack would give you, depending how bold your are. Also bare in mind the majority of the pegs tend to be on the crux pitch, if your partner is better than you and leading these it may leave you on the less pegged pitches and more in need of gear.
If you are climbing something 200 metres long (ie quite short) near the road close to your limit I don't see the point in unnecessarily running it out. it's decreasing safety not adding to it, as an early start can still see you done by lunch time anyway on a possibly stormy pm forecast.
Post edited at 17:46
In reply to CurlyStevo: Hi Stevo, sorry, should have qualified what i said, i meant microwires rather than cams. I often carry a yellow and blue wc zero or metolius tcu, which go in pockets rather well. As for peg hammer, I can honestly say, in 17-18 years of climbing in the Dolomites, I've never carried either pegs or a hammer, nor felt the need. Admittedly I'm only climbing routes up to VI or maybe a few A0 moves, and usually of decent repute, i.e. Routes often climbed, but if I haven't managed to place a peg in that time...
In reply to beardy mike:
Just a swift hijack of the thread. (please).
Ropes for the dolomites? 1st time out there so I guess well travelled/classic/top rated routes will be the aim.
70m x2 skinny ones
60m x2 normal diameter
or 80m single (9.1)?
I have a skinny 60m single too, did think about one half and one single @60m. Though if I can fit 3 ropes in, then it give maximum versatility.
Thanks. Kev
NB. I'm not worried about the "can't use a single as a half rope" thing.
Cheers
Just a swift hijack of the thread. (please).
Ropes for the dolomites? 1st time out there so I guess well travelled/classic/top rated routes will be the aim.
70m x2 skinny ones
60m x2 normal diameter
or 80m single (9.1)?
I have a skinny 60m single too, did think about one half and one single @60m. Though if I can fit 3 ropes in, then it give maximum versatility.
Thanks. Kev
NB. I'm not worried about the "can't use a single as a half rope" thing.
Cheers
In reply to Kevster:
70s are way too long... Just too much drag as most of the time the lines on classic routes aren't that direct, and you'll just end up yarding through rope at belays. More often than not I'll use 50m or 60m skinny doubles, Mammut Phoenix or Edelrid Apus' but have also used a 50m skinny mammut serenity whilst carrying a pull down cord. Having said that, this was extremely commiting. If there is even the slightest chance that you might need to back off, I would think about it very seriously, as they can jam quite easily. Having said that, on classic routes, descents are often bolted at 30m intervals and if they are only a few abs long, a standard single 60 can be pretty much perfect as long as you extend your runners etc. Many climbers in Italy have no idea what doubles even are, and are used to moving fast and often operate at a much higher sport grade than UK climbers so there is some extra juice in the tank. So take a look at what sort of climbs you are likely to be doing - if you can manage it with baggage allowances, I'd go for a pair of skinny 50m doubles and a 60m single... That would cover all eventualities. If you can't and you think you'll be doing grade IV classics with shortish pitches and bolted belays, a 60m single will often suffice, or if you are aiming to do long technical routes, then skinny doubles...
70s are way too long... Just too much drag as most of the time the lines on classic routes aren't that direct, and you'll just end up yarding through rope at belays. More often than not I'll use 50m or 60m skinny doubles, Mammut Phoenix or Edelrid Apus' but have also used a 50m skinny mammut serenity whilst carrying a pull down cord. Having said that, this was extremely commiting. If there is even the slightest chance that you might need to back off, I would think about it very seriously, as they can jam quite easily. Having said that, on classic routes, descents are often bolted at 30m intervals and if they are only a few abs long, a standard single 60 can be pretty much perfect as long as you extend your runners etc. Many climbers in Italy have no idea what doubles even are, and are used to moving fast and often operate at a much higher sport grade than UK climbers so there is some extra juice in the tank. So take a look at what sort of climbs you are likely to be doing - if you can manage it with baggage allowances, I'd go for a pair of skinny 50m doubles and a 60m single... That would cover all eventualities. If you can't and you think you'll be doing grade IV classics with shortish pitches and bolted belays, a 60m single will often suffice, or if you are aiming to do long technical routes, then skinny doubles...
2
In reply to beardy mike:
Hi mike , yet again a great Reply to kevster - my rounded off question to you is ,,,,
Would two 50m ropes do for all multi
pitch routes / length of pitches/ length of abseil's ? Ie have you come across any 55/60 m abseil or pitches ?¿
Hi mike , yet again a great Reply to kevster - my rounded off question to you is ,,,,
Would two 50m ropes do for all multi
pitch routes / length of pitches/ length of abseil's ? Ie have you come across any 55/60 m abseil or pitches ?¿
In reply to solomonkey:
Yes 50m double ropes will do for all trad multipitch routes. The only advantage you have with 60's is if you get 2 30 metre pitches in a row and the line is direct enough to link the pitches thereby cutting out a belay. Having said that, this is only really relevant on long routes where every belay adds to your overall time on the face. If you are doing 100-400m routes, you're just not going to have a problem with 50's. As for abseils, either yoou're walking off the top, or the belay stations will be bolted usually at 45ish m intervals, or 30m intervals. So again, never a problem...
Yes 50m double ropes will do for all trad multipitch routes. The only advantage you have with 60's is if you get 2 30 metre pitches in a row and the line is direct enough to link the pitches thereby cutting out a belay. Having said that, this is only really relevant on long routes where every belay adds to your overall time on the face. If you are doing 100-400m routes, you're just not going to have a problem with 50's. As for abseils, either yoou're walking off the top, or the belay stations will be bolted usually at 45ish m intervals, or 30m intervals. So again, never a problem...
In reply to CurlyStevo:
^This is why I always carry a set of brass offsets and IMPs - extra pro options for virtually no weight. Tricam wise - the small pink fits anywhere my thumb does. My 'second set' of nuts on my trad rack is a set of alloy offsets and small white, black and pink tricams.
> My reasoning on the micro cams and ballnut (which we already owned) was it meant we didn't need to carry pegs and are good get out of jail cards if you do end up off route and at little weight cost. Depending on the route and advice even pegs and a hammer are sometimes advised!
^This is why I always carry a set of brass offsets and IMPs - extra pro options for virtually no weight. Tricam wise - the small pink fits anywhere my thumb does. My 'second set' of nuts on my trad rack is a set of alloy offsets and small white, black and pink tricams.
In reply to Toerag:
Thought I'd update this thread. Having recently returned. Thanks for the advice btw. This is what I found:
Climbed up to 6c sport & 6+ trad. Though more 5's than 6's. Mostly 3 star routes as expected for a cherry picking trip. The stars are quite liberal in the rockfax, and if it were I, I may have been a little less free with them. Sport grades I felt were tough compared to UK, Spain & Orpierre. Maybe the altitude? Or the numerous long days.
350m height routes were plenty in a day. They took 6-7 hours and descent 2-3hrs. Needed a rest day after a big route day. Could fit in 2 long routes at cinque tor in a day and still have lunch at the cafe.
I did not place a single tricam, micro cam or micro nut. Nor did I feel the need to when I did not carry them.
60m ropes is fine (though I ran out twice on lead). light shoes are a godsend for the descents.
Many routes have lots of insitu gear - some are basically sport routes (eg Finlandia), though the 1 set of nuts and one set of cams & plenty of slings/extenders worked well.
It was hot all day, even on the top of sella towers/cinque tor/piz ciavasis. (early july) No need for insulation even walking back from the pub. I realise this may vary.
The views are awesome, some pitches are run out (deal with it! - what else are you going to do?) and Casa alfredo (where we stayed) was great self catering accommodation (thanks).
Hope that rounds off some of this thread for those researching their trip.
K.
Thought I'd update this thread. Having recently returned. Thanks for the advice btw. This is what I found:
Climbed up to 6c sport & 6+ trad. Though more 5's than 6's. Mostly 3 star routes as expected for a cherry picking trip. The stars are quite liberal in the rockfax, and if it were I, I may have been a little less free with them. Sport grades I felt were tough compared to UK, Spain & Orpierre. Maybe the altitude? Or the numerous long days.
350m height routes were plenty in a day. They took 6-7 hours and descent 2-3hrs. Needed a rest day after a big route day. Could fit in 2 long routes at cinque tor in a day and still have lunch at the cafe.
I did not place a single tricam, micro cam or micro nut. Nor did I feel the need to when I did not carry them.
60m ropes is fine (though I ran out twice on lead). light shoes are a godsend for the descents.
Many routes have lots of insitu gear - some are basically sport routes (eg Finlandia), though the 1 set of nuts and one set of cams & plenty of slings/extenders worked well.
It was hot all day, even on the top of sella towers/cinque tor/piz ciavasis. (early july) No need for insulation even walking back from the pub. I realise this may vary.
The views are awesome, some pitches are run out (deal with it! - what else are you going to do?) and Casa alfredo (where we stayed) was great self catering accommodation (thanks).
Hope that rounds off some of this thread for those researching their trip.
K.
1
In reply to Kevster:
Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the plug! Don't forget, theres even more awesome stuff in the winter... I wrote an article about the Serrai just up the road from us and it really is one of the best ice climbing spots in europe...
Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the plug! Don't forget, theres even more awesome stuff in the winter... I wrote an article about the Serrai just up the road from us and it really is one of the best ice climbing spots in europe...
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