UKC

I recently bought some cheap GM carabiners from a Chinese company via Ebay. (Can't post Ebay URL on forum, but they're easy to find.)

They have adequate strength ratings, and claim to be certified by UIAA and to meet CE requirements. So, I was quite happy to get 5 for around £12 (now up to £17).

However, I've recently read that they don't have a UIAA certificate: http://www.theuiaa.org/Black-List-and-Advice-Notices.html

In light of this, I wonder whether they really meet CE standards.

Can anyone else shed any light on whether these carabiners, and other GM equipment, is safe or dangerous?

Thanks!
CW

In reply to C Witter:

If they have lied about their UIAA, then I wouldn't trust them with having met the CE standards. I also wouldn't trust them with my life just on that initial lie.

In reply to C Witter:
If they haven't bothered getting the UIAA mark through official channels, are you really going to trust that they've got CE rating, or that their product meets their claimed rating? It's your life, or worse still somebody elses life on the line, using your gear. IMO, blatantly not worth the risk. Work a few extra hours and get the right stuff.

Edit: had a look at ebay - it all looks like open mold stuff and could be from any number of manufacturers out there. It will be coming direct from there most likely, which means you have absolutely no quality guarantee what so ever. How do you know if the parts are made from the correct material, have been correctly heat treated etc afterwards? Most european and US companies will have extra quality checks in place to make sure what they are selling is right...

In reply to C Witter:

Quality gear is worth every penny. Not just for safety (which is a prerequisite for known brands) but for performance too. Wouldnt you rather pay a little more for a quality, lightweight biner that is not only safe but also smooth to use and well designed?

I know what I'd do.

In reply to C Witter:

Would you be happy to go out right now and take a 15ft leader fall onto them?

If there is any doubt in your mind bin them and buy some from a proper climbing shop.

In reply to C Witter:

Presumably you could contact 'the CE' and ask them to verify the claimed certification on said product?

In reply to C Witter:

How much is your life worth?

I would bin/recycle them and learn from the experience.

I expected as much. I will just have to try for a refund (wishful thinking?).

It's interesting, though, because if you search for cheap climbing gear on ebay there is a lot of GM stuff up there - and people are buying it. So, that's a lot of people using potentially dangerous gear....

Thanks,
CW

In reply to C Witter:

If you can't get a refund it would be interesting if DMM or someone with a gear pulling device could see what their actual breaking strain was.

In reply to C Witter:

Just file it for "not as described" giving the UIAA page details and the fact they are fraudulent.

In reply to C Witter:

In a recent case of dodgy dental equipment sold/purchased through eBay the (fake) CE marking was eventually described as 'Chinese Export'!! If a deal looks too good to be true, it usually is

In reply to C Witter:

Have you seen the latest Volkswagen TV ad campaign?

Andy

In reply to C Witter:

I wouldn't use those. Just not worth the risk imho. I have no idea how expensive the biners are in the UK, but you can usually get them for 9-10 EUR/piece (see some european online shops). It may not be as cheap, but at least you know what you get.

In reply to C Witter:

How can one genetically modify a carabiner?

In reply to NottsRich:


Verification is carried out by your local trading standards officer for items sold in the EU. CEN have nothing to do with enforcement.
However!!! As the OP imported them into the EU they are liable for ensuring they conform so should contact the maufacturer direct for access to the technical file. Easier to bin them I´d guess.

In reply to C Witter:

If you own any other cheap mass produced products from china you'll know how crappy they are, no doubt these will be of the same quality.not really worth risking life and limb for.im sure you'll find many other uses for them around the home/garden so they're still useful.

In reply to C Witter:


Indeed, but maybe not all of the purchasers will use it for climbing, and maybe not all of them will get the lemon. 99% of the crabs might be okay, but it's the lemon that will kill you. Buying from a certified manufacturer that actually tests each piece, weeds out those lemons for you.
So you're not paying for a chunk of metal, but for someone to sort out the lemons for you.

In reply to C Witter:

I know of a maker of bags and things from recycled climbing gear who could use them as clips to keep the lids fastened shut.

In reply to C Witter:

http://www.madebyscavenger.com/

In reply to C Witter:
If there's one things it's worth buying proper decent quality gear for, it's for going climbing, if they'll lie about the UIAA, you don't know what integrity anything else they say has, or what the quality of their metal is, or anything really.

In reply to C Witter:

I've always worked on the basis that I'd hate my last conscious as something broke thought to be:
"I wish I hadn't bought that cheap crap kit"

As I accelerated past it to a terminal finality.

Life's short enough. Stay alive longer by buying good kit.

In reply to C Witter

No good goods cheaper. I think it is better to find the gear in climbing shop .

In reply to NottsRich:

I think at least in many cases the 'CE' mark is only a statement of conformance from the manufacturer. There is no external body that actually tests the thing - you don't earn CE certification, you simply claim it. You may be required to do internal testing, which may even have to be from an approved body, but it is the responsibility of the importer to check up on this...

What law have a Chinese company broken for sticking a CE label on something that does not conform with the CE regulations? Possibly copyright, but do you think they care?

PS the 'China Export' thing is a bit of a myth... the dodgy cheaper ends of the Chinese market just don't care. They only put the CE mark on, or some dodgy approximation of it to save space, because the customer requests or expects it... the CE logo just means that the Chinese factory stamped two semicircles and a line into the plastic, nothing more...

Summary: don't import goods from outside the EU unless you are in a position to ascertain the safety of the goods and the conformance of the goods to EU legislation.

In reply to andrewmcleod:


For a great number of products this is so but nearly all climbing equipment must conform to a European standard (EN) and be independently certified as doing so. The CE mark is then applied to show it has been certified and conforms to the appropriate directive for sale in the EU. Some items are not CE marked as they fall into category 0 such as belay devices and bolts.

In the case of the OP´s karabiner the issue isn´t really clear and nor is the UIAA´s warning, the items may well be certified to the UIAA requirements by the testing laboratory who did the EN testing but the manufacturer is not prepared to pay the licence fee to use the UIAA Safety Label mark. This isn´t unusual, I have a test certificate for my bolts stating they conform but don´t bother with the Safety Label and there are other companies with a similar position, when you are already doing the EN testing then the extra reqirements cost generally nothing to certify but to use the UIAA mark costs a considerable amount for little benefit.
You will notice that the UIAA´s statement leaves room for intepretation " We consider this to be an unacceptable use of UIAA name in order to create the impression that these products have been tested and approved by the UIAA. The UIAA therefore, cannot guarantee that the products from GM meet up to the standard set by the UIAA Safety Label."

In reply to C Witter:

use them for racking gear and such-like but I wouldn't use them for climbing if I was you.

Maybe as tat to abb off on, but I'd use two instead of one, only after trying to break them in a safe environment.

In reply to krikoman:

Ab off them and leave them for somebody to pick and put on their rack? Nice.

In reply to jimtitt:

I've been in touch with the UIAA and the manufacturer, and it seems you're on the mark here. It seems the manufacturer got UIAA approval for their factory, but let their certification lapse and a dispute seems to have developed out of a name change, from Handy Man to GM, as it seems each company requires a separate UIAA certificate and that GM didn't want to pay to arrange this.

This is from the UIAA: "[We] never received any laboratory documents or papers that the gear [GM] bought was from Handyman. Handyman is an UIAA certified manufacturer, however their Labels have been suspended due to non-payment and we do not have their updated laboratory reports. "

This from GM: "This is the problem that we are negotiating with UIAA. GM is a registered brand in the United States. Our products are produced in our factory in Taiwan named HANDY MAN ENTERPRISE CO., LTD. The certification number is TPE 12-3155 under our factory name. As a matter of fact, we have talked to UIAA to combine two names and we are still on the way solving this problem. We are quite aware of how serious the problem will be."

Interestingly, it appears to me that Handy Man might also be manufacturing the same products for GrandWall, although I've no way of confirming this. GrandWall does have UIAA certification for the products it sells.

In reply to C Witter:

A decent amount of manufacturers in the Russian bloc don't bother with UIAA certifications because of the cost. That doesn't mean the gear is suspect. There was a good video of someone testing to destruction krabs and nuts from a couple of different manufacturers and they easily matched the breaking strength of the well known brands.

In reply to C Witter:

Its not either safe or dangerous, it's probability of failure.

I will buy cheap goods where the consequences of failure are limited.

With climbing gear, any hardware failure is too high a risk to add to an already risky sport.