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So I took someone climbing the other day. He wanted to go. Climbing, not bouldering. I don't climb much these days but I thought it wouldn't be too hard to take him up something, what with my bouldering going ok these days.
How wrong I was.
Took him up something on stanage I first led over ten years ago when I was a beginner. HS it was. Wall End Holly Tree Flake. The name isn't important though. What matters is it was "easy" and I jibbed like an idiot on it. He called up "I thought you were going to take me up something easy that you could do in trainers"? I called back "I think I'm going to have to abandon this one" and there ensued much down climbing and generally uninspiring faffdom.
It's all a whole lot harder than bouldering a few 6's or even 7's. At least when you fail on a 7 you don't have to gibber and faff.
Anyone similar to share?
How wrong I was.
Took him up something on stanage I first led over ten years ago when I was a beginner. HS it was. Wall End Holly Tree Flake. The name isn't important though. What matters is it was "easy" and I jibbed like an idiot on it. He called up "I thought you were going to take me up something easy that you could do in trainers"? I called back "I think I'm going to have to abandon this one" and there ensued much down climbing and generally uninspiring faffdom.
It's all a whole lot harder than bouldering a few 6's or even 7's. At least when you fail on a 7 you don't have to gibber and faff.
Anyone similar to share?
4
In reply to Mutl3y:
I can find low level thrutchyness a bit intimidating when I haven't climbed for a while but will be quite happy on stuff I might fall on that doesn't have ankle breaking ledges or the prospect of a rasping slide that would grate chunks of skin off. I sometimes get the willies soloing down diffs and so on too til my head pops back into its relaxed place. I am pretty much always terrified when stood up after topping out when I haven't climbed for a while and am sorting a belay out. I don't necessarily see these as bad things, more natural evolutionary traits that stopped my ancestors walking off of precipices and complacency is a lot more likely to get someone killed or hurt than some starting back timidity.
I can find low level thrutchyness a bit intimidating when I haven't climbed for a while but will be quite happy on stuff I might fall on that doesn't have ankle breaking ledges or the prospect of a rasping slide that would grate chunks of skin off. I sometimes get the willies soloing down diffs and so on too til my head pops back into its relaxed place. I am pretty much always terrified when stood up after topping out when I haven't climbed for a while and am sorting a belay out. I don't necessarily see these as bad things, more natural evolutionary traits that stopped my ancestors walking off of precipices and complacency is a lot more likely to get someone killed or hurt than some starting back timidity.
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In reply to ultrabumbly:
Yeah that's it - the thrutchyness of it. I was fine later on a more "open" VS with normal moves, but this thing was all cracks and off width. The type that doesn't climb itself.
Just out of practice I guess. Will have to remember to not get complacent next time...
Yeah that's it - the thrutchyness of it. I was fine later on a more "open" VS with normal moves, but this thing was all cracks and off width. The type that doesn't climb itself.
Just out of practice I guess. Will have to remember to not get complacent next time...
Post edited at 21:33
In reply to Mutl3y:
HS it was.
That's your first major mistake, should have gone VS.
Hard Severe's are notoriously bastard routes!
HS it was.
That's your first major mistake, should have gone VS.
Hard Severe's are notoriously bastard routes!
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In reply to Lusk:
Aye. The VS was pretty easy. Easier even than the other Vdiff we did. I'll not make the same mistake again.
Aye. The VS was pretty easy. Easier even than the other Vdiff we did. I'll not make the same mistake again.
In reply to Mutl3y:
I wouldn't worry: the only two times I've had a proper heart-thumper were totally ridiculous.
Once, on a fine day, on my xxth crossing of Crib Goch: I was hung over, but no excuse for my feet refusing to move properly for what seemed like an hour (probably a couple of mins).
Another time, crossing an easy (but hard) snow-track on a glacier without crampons, suddenly becoming convinced I wasn't going to make it to the far side of the slope without pinging off into a waiting crevasse.
Hardly the most challenging situations I've ever been in!
On another day, you'll probably be fine.
I wouldn't worry: the only two times I've had a proper heart-thumper were totally ridiculous.
Once, on a fine day, on my xxth crossing of Crib Goch: I was hung over, but no excuse for my feet refusing to move properly for what seemed like an hour (probably a couple of mins).
Another time, crossing an easy (but hard) snow-track on a glacier without crampons, suddenly becoming convinced I wasn't going to make it to the far side of the slope without pinging off into a waiting crevasse.
Hardly the most challenging situations I've ever been in!
On another day, you'll probably be fine.
Post edited at 11:10
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In reply to Mutl3y:
Well, it's all mental, isn't it?
I was okay to free solo, rope lead solo or lead routes while protecting just the crux bit with a dodgy cam. Sometimes not even with climbing shoes, just trainers or approach shoes. I was never bold, but I was confident.
Recently, I have witnessed a climbing accident where my climbing partner hit the deck and had to be taken to hospital. I am glad he got away with very minimal damage, but I am so scared now that I bailed off HS, barely lead VS (which I climbed couple times before) and even well protected Severes seemed challenging. I used to lead up to French 6c+ indoors but the last time I have been to climbing wall I had a disco leg on a 6a and fell off that route.
However, I am still fairly decent at bouldering. I am still trying to get back to climbing and I am getting better, but I have never realized it's going to make such a huge difference.
Well, it's all mental, isn't it?
I was okay to free solo, rope lead solo or lead routes while protecting just the crux bit with a dodgy cam. Sometimes not even with climbing shoes, just trainers or approach shoes. I was never bold, but I was confident.
Recently, I have witnessed a climbing accident where my climbing partner hit the deck and had to be taken to hospital. I am glad he got away with very minimal damage, but I am so scared now that I bailed off HS, barely lead VS (which I climbed couple times before) and even well protected Severes seemed challenging. I used to lead up to French 6c+ indoors but the last time I have been to climbing wall I had a disco leg on a 6a and fell off that route.
However, I am still fairly decent at bouldering. I am still trying to get back to climbing and I am getting better, but I have never realized it's going to make such a huge difference.
In reply to PPP:
Yes! It's the most difficult bit to train too. It's all very well practicing dropping off the overhanging wall down the foundry but when you are outside on something traditional and your pro isn't that great and falling off will probably involve hitting one or more ledges etc.....then it's a different game.
The solution of course is to "be confident" but that's easier said...
> Well, it's all mental, isn't it?
Yes! It's the most difficult bit to train too. It's all very well practicing dropping off the overhanging wall down the foundry but when you are outside on something traditional and your pro isn't that great and falling off will probably involve hitting one or more ledges etc.....then it's a different game.
The solution of course is to "be confident" but that's easier said...
In reply to top cat:
Agreed! Ended up climbing a "harder" climb - a VS - but much less traditional so I found it easier. Much more straightforward anyway.
Agreed! Ended up climbing a "harder" climb - a VS - but much less traditional so I found it easier. Much more straightforward anyway.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Quite a bit I reckon. It's not as simple as don't climb much these days therefore shit....as I certainly used to be able to climb things like that but since having a bit of a fall out of fern crack + inversion + near miss things haven't been the same....
> What more is there to say?
Quite a bit I reckon. It's not as simple as don't climb much these days therefore shit....as I certainly used to be able to climb things like that but since having a bit of a fall out of fern crack + inversion + near miss things haven't been the same....
In reply to Mutl3y:
The solution is to go climbing!
Do you live somewhere where you can get out during the week (presuming you work full time/Mon-Fri)? Don't wait until your normal partners are available, get partners off here, go soloing, go bouldering so you're out on the rock a lot. Then hey presto, you will be confident - sadly you can't magic that out of the mind, you have to learn it.
> The solution of course is to "be confident" but that's easier said...
The solution is to go climbing!
Do you live somewhere where you can get out during the week (presuming you work full time/Mon-Fri)? Don't wait until your normal partners are available, get partners off here, go soloing, go bouldering so you're out on the rock a lot. Then hey presto, you will be confident - sadly you can't magic that out of the mind, you have to learn it.
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In reply to Mutl3y:
It can definitely be hard to get confidence back after that kind of thing. There's only one solution...
> since having a bit of a fall out of fern crack + inversion + near miss things haven't been the same....
It can definitely be hard to get confidence back after that kind of thing. There's only one solution...
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In reply to PPP:
Watching someone I knew deck and taking care of them (thankfully only a fairly badly broken leg in the end)dented my confidence way more and for longer than the couple of times I did so myself. She was up and leading happily 5 months later while I was still a bit wobbly. It passed over time but I would say it was a factor for a good 18 months.
Watching someone I knew deck and taking care of them (thankfully only a fairly badly broken leg in the end)dented my confidence way more and for longer than the couple of times I did so myself. She was up and leading happily 5 months later while I was still a bit wobbly. It passed over time but I would say it was a factor for a good 18 months.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I can get to Stanage in ten minutes. Small child commitment limits passes to a few hours at a time though and I tend to prefer bouldering than co ordinating with partners.
It'll come back I'm sure. Bouldering ain't the answer for me tho...need to practice on the big stuff again.
I can get to Stanage in ten minutes. Small child commitment limits passes to a few hours at a time though and I tend to prefer bouldering than co ordinating with partners.
It'll come back I'm sure. Bouldering ain't the answer for me tho...need to practice on the big stuff again.
In reply to Mutl3y:
Yep, it's a very different feeling. And again being on big cliffs is a different feeling to being comfortable on grit outcrops - you just need to get used to whatever it is you want to be confident at.
> ...need to practice on the big stuff again.
Yep, it's a very different feeling. And again being on big cliffs is a different feeling to being comfortable on grit outcrops - you just need to get used to whatever it is you want to be confident at.
In reply to Mutl3y:
Ha, great story.
Leading is scary though. If it wasn't there would no point to it. But a lot of it is what you're used to. When I first climbed on bolts I wasn't sure I could trust them, coz I hadn't placed them myself. Soon got over that. Indoor lead walls felt scary at first compared to outside. But now after a winter on inside its outside that at first seems scary. I generally don't mind a bit of soloing but high ball bouldering - far too scary for me.
There's a bit in Dave Macleod's book about fear of falling. He says you need to take 5 - 10 lead falls every time you go climbing. Then you need to keep that up for about a year. After that you'll hopefully be over it. But if you stop taking lead falls that fear will soon return.
Ha, great story.
Leading is scary though. If it wasn't there would no point to it. But a lot of it is what you're used to. When I first climbed on bolts I wasn't sure I could trust them, coz I hadn't placed them myself. Soon got over that. Indoor lead walls felt scary at first compared to outside. But now after a winter on inside its outside that at first seems scary. I generally don't mind a bit of soloing but high ball bouldering - far too scary for me.
There's a bit in Dave Macleod's book about fear of falling. He says you need to take 5 - 10 lead falls every time you go climbing. Then you need to keep that up for about a year. After that you'll hopefully be over it. But if you stop taking lead falls that fear will soon return.
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In reply to Mutl3y:
Rock climbing on trad & bouldering are different sports. More than physicality trad is more in the head. Most e5/6,s are seldom harder than 6b to 7a but how many people can on sight them. Prob less now than 2030 years ago as life now is ever more sanitised and risk averse
Rock climbing on trad & bouldering are different sports. More than physicality trad is more in the head. Most e5/6,s are seldom harder than 6b to 7a but how many people can on sight them. Prob less now than 2030 years ago as life now is ever more sanitised and risk averse
In reply to rocksol:
Haha! I'm not sure why you think there are less people onsighting E5/6 now? Check this:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/topascents.html?sort=g
You've got quite eccentric standards of what "risk averse" means if you think that to be anything other than a namby-pamby-wrapped-in-cotton-wool child of the health and safety culture you've got to be onsighting E6! Isn't an E3 on South Stack risky enough to separate one from the office and sofa-bound masses?
> Rock climbing on trad & bouldering are different sports. More than physicality trad is more in the head. Most e5/6,s are seldom harder than 6b to 7a but how many people can on sight them. Prob less now than 2030 years ago as life now is ever more sanitised and risk averse
Haha! I'm not sure why you think there are less people onsighting E5/6 now? Check this:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/topascents.html?sort=g
You've got quite eccentric standards of what "risk averse" means if you think that to be anything other than a namby-pamby-wrapped-in-cotton-wool child of the health and safety culture you've got to be onsighting E6! Isn't an E3 on South Stack risky enough to separate one from the office and sofa-bound masses?
In reply to Mutl3y:
be confident when you have reason to be yes, not when you haven't!
> The solution of course is to "be confident" but that's easier said...
be confident when you have reason to be yes, not when you haven't!
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Yes! I was at Tremadog the other week and totally jibbered up Valerie's Rib HS on well-protected 4a moves, when I had been on 7a sport and E3s this year. The difference was just the length of pitch and the sight possibility of going off route. So daft!
The day after I did an E1 at Tremadog with similar exposure as smooth as you like. I just had to get the initial fear over with the day before
> And again being on big cliffs is a different feeling to being comfortable on grit outcrops.
Yes! I was at Tremadog the other week and totally jibbered up Valerie's Rib HS on well-protected 4a moves, when I had been on 7a sport and E3s this year. The difference was just the length of pitch and the sight possibility of going off route. So daft!
The day after I did an E1 at Tremadog with similar exposure as smooth as you like. I just had to get the initial fear over with the day before
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In reply to rocksol:
Ha! Well until I get into BASE jumping, proximity wing-suiting and start soloing choss routes on the Llyn (E5 and up), I will consider myself a namby-pamby-wrapped-in-cotton-wool child of the health and safety culture then... Well to be fair I did just shit myself doing a highball HVS with a slopey top-out.
> No that's why it's only E3!
Ha! Well until I get into BASE jumping, proximity wing-suiting and start soloing choss routes on the Llyn (E5 and up), I will consider myself a namby-pamby-wrapped-in-cotton-wool child of the health and safety culture then... Well to be fair I did just shit myself doing a highball HVS with a slopey top-out.
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In reply to rocksol:
Wow E3's first done in 15BC. Wonder what gear they used?
> Rock climbing on trad & bouldering are different sports. More than physicality trad is more in the head. Most e5/6,s are seldom harder than 6b to 7a but how many people can on sight them. Prob less now than 2030 years ago as life now is ever more sanitised and risk averse
Wow E3's first done in 15BC. Wonder what gear they used?
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In reply to Mutl3y:
Everyone gets scared leading, the technical difficulty varies but the experience is the same. It's how you deal with that fear is what best needs training, IMHO.
Peter
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Everyone gets scared leading, the technical difficulty varies but the experience is the same. It's how you deal with that fear is what best needs training, IMHO.
Peter
--
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In reply to Mutl3y:
Realise that easy grades, can still take you to scary and very dangerous places.
How does that saying go? A can do attitude and a trad rack will get you to places you might regret?
Massacred it probably.
Realise that easy grades, can still take you to scary and very dangerous places.
How does that saying go? A can do attitude and a trad rack will get you to places you might regret?
Massacred it probably.
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In reply to stp:
On bolts, presumably? I don't think I've taken 5 leader falls ever.
> He says you need to take 5 - 10 lead falls every time you go climbing.
On bolts, presumably? I don't think I've taken 5 leader falls ever.
In reply to Orgsm:
Those round things you see aren't really millstones. They are an artefact of Roman climbing gear shops and the equivalent of a size 6+ cam that everyone looked at the price tag upon and thought something like "no way, Bonosus can buy that seeing as the fat bastard has flattened my last two crash donkeys"
> Wow E3's first done in 15BC. Wonder what gear they used?
Those round things you see aren't really millstones. They are an artefact of Roman climbing gear shops and the equivalent of a size 6+ cam that everyone looked at the price tag upon and thought something like "no way, Bonosus can buy that seeing as the fat bastard has flattened my last two crash donkeys"
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In reply to Mutl3y:
Personally I feel extremely calm on lead, far more so than whilst seconding. I find it easy to get into a state of mind that makes concentration and focus straightforward, and allows the route to flow naturally.
When leading on ice/mixed, I've never had the hot aches, but whenever seconding get them continously. Overall everything feels better when on lead!
Have only taken one big lead fall (and numerous small falls of no more than a couple of meters), on the Etive Slabs. Got straight back on and climbed again, but about 30m up the pitch went to pieces, and was stuck for a good 10 minutes on simple moves.
Personally I feel extremely calm on lead, far more so than whilst seconding. I find it easy to get into a state of mind that makes concentration and focus straightforward, and allows the route to flow naturally.
When leading on ice/mixed, I've never had the hot aches, but whenever seconding get them continously. Overall everything feels better when on lead!
Have only taken one big lead fall (and numerous small falls of no more than a couple of meters), on the Etive Slabs. Got straight back on and climbed again, but about 30m up the pitch went to pieces, and was stuck for a good 10 minutes on simple moves.
In reply to Orgsm:
They wouldn't even be able to place a Jesus piece.
> Wow E3's first done in 15BC. Wonder what gear they used?
They wouldn't even be able to place a Jesus piece.
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In reply to JackM92:
Thanks for sharing jack. It's an incredibly complicated muscle, the brain, eh?
My experiences have certainly gone through the range of supreme confidence soloing as a beginner - soloing stuff I definitely wouldn't do at the moment, through confident leading but also really nerve racking seconding. I certainly empathise with your experience of finding seconding a bit more mentally taxing than a good lead on occasion.
Thanks for sharing jack. It's an incredibly complicated muscle, the brain, eh?
My experiences have certainly gone through the range of supreme confidence soloing as a beginner - soloing stuff I definitely wouldn't do at the moment, through confident leading but also really nerve racking seconding. I certainly empathise with your experience of finding seconding a bit more mentally taxing than a good lead on occasion.
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