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Are V grades used just by old & lonely tradders..?
V1, what the font is that even?
Thus, a proposal for the boulderer... why don't we just scrap the vermin. Write them out of the books, stop talking about them! And no hypocritical rubbish here about grades not existing.. we all know that they do, even if we struggle with our self-created sense of subjectivity. Much better is the F grade: more meaningful, more emotional, plus its not another thoughtless import from north america :p
So Font grades...what's not to like x
V1, what the font is that even?
Thus, a proposal for the boulderer... why don't we just scrap the vermin. Write them out of the books, stop talking about them! And no hypocritical rubbish here about grades not existing.. we all know that they do, even if we struggle with our self-created sense of subjectivity. Much better is the F grade: more meaningful, more emotional, plus its not another thoughtless import from north america :p
So Font grades...what's not to like x
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3
In reply to olliebristol:
Tempted to flick you the V sign, but instead will simply tell you to F off.
Tempted to flick you the V sign, but instead will simply tell you to F off.
23
In reply to olliebristol:
Are they not just the same? Thought they went up in the same intervals anyway.
Are they not just the same? Thought they went up in the same intervals anyway.
1
In reply to olliebristol:
I use both interchangeably. As that guy said, they go up in (nearly) the same increments so what's the problem (well apart from v8+ which kinda sorta things out.) v7 is 7a+/ v2 is 6b etc etc. it's not the same as the other grade debate as you get different information from either system. Both the font and v grades are exactly the same.
I use both interchangeably. As that guy said, they go up in (nearly) the same increments so what's the problem (well apart from v8+ which kinda sorta things out.) v7 is 7a+/ v2 is 6b etc etc. it's not the same as the other grade debate as you get different information from either system. Both the font and v grades are exactly the same.
In reply to olliebristol:
V grades are adopted in the UK because they're supposed to describe the easier problems better than Font.
However am out in Cham at the moment, where yellow is Font 2/3 (children's circuit), 4 green, 5 blue, 6a/b red etc. seems to work ok for everyone even at the low grades. The Vermin Va/b gradings were added as a bolt on for stuff which isn't really bouldering.
V grades are adopted in the UK because they're supposed to describe the easier problems better than Font.
However am out in Cham at the moment, where yellow is Font 2/3 (children's circuit), 4 green, 5 blue, 6a/b red etc. seems to work ok for everyone even at the low grades. The Vermin Va/b gradings were added as a bolt on for stuff which isn't really bouldering.
In reply to olliebristol:
As I understand it Vgrades tell you JUST how difficult the climb is. There's no objective difficulty weighting such as if it's over a shapr pointy rock or soft sand. it gets the same grade. I think Font grades take this into account which for indoors is pretty pointless as it's generally above 18" of soft foam.
As I understand it Vgrades tell you JUST how difficult the climb is. There's no objective difficulty weighting such as if it's over a shapr pointy rock or soft sand. it gets the same grade. I think Font grades take this into account which for indoors is pretty pointless as it's generally above 18" of soft foam.
In reply to olliebristol:
They are pretty common in the lakes, although we seem to use font and V grades interchangeably. Although I lose track below about V6.
They are pretty common in the lakes, although we seem to use font and V grades interchangeably. Although I lose track below about V6.
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
Really? That's crazy! V grades are useless for really easy stuff, because V0 is (IIRC) about UK 5a / 5b, and hence rather than the nice simple V0, V1, V2, V3 that was advertised, you end up having to use a complicated mash of VB+, V0- and so on for all the stuff that John Sherman considered too easy to be interesting.
Font grades are often badly used in practice for beginnerish problems (ie in Font), but V grades don't even work in principle!
> V grades are adopted in the UK because they're supposed to describe the easier problems better than Font.
Really? That's crazy! V grades are useless for really easy stuff, because V0 is (IIRC) about UK 5a / 5b, and hence rather than the nice simple V0, V1, V2, V3 that was advertised, you end up having to use a complicated mash of VB+, V0- and so on for all the stuff that John Sherman considered too easy to be interesting.
Font grades are often badly used in practice for beginnerish problems (ie in Font), but V grades don't even work in principle!
8
In reply to olliebristol:
I reckon as we are in Britain then we should be using just Brit tech grades
After all they dont use British trad grades in France do they?
I reckon as we are in Britain then we should be using just Brit tech grades
After all they dont use British trad grades in France do they?
Post edited at 09:24
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1
In reply to olliebristol:
No, we still use UK tech grades. If we're feeling down with the youth we might try B grades but we're always scared of getting them wrong...
> Are V grades used just by old & lonely tradders..?
No, we still use UK tech grades. If we're feeling down with the youth we might try B grades but we're always scared of getting them wrong...
1
In reply to olliebristol:
Historically Font grades were poor in the lower grades as many who have been spanked by supposedly f3 and f4 problems in Font will testify. However this appears to be being sorted out these days and there is now much better coverage or easier boulder problems and more consistent grading.
There was also the problem that many less experienced climbers couldn't tell the difference between a Font grade - written 7a+ - and a sport grade - written 7a+. The addition of an 'f' in front of this for 'Font' or 'French' didn't help much.
This also has now been sorted a bit better although there is no international agreed standard, but using capitals for the font grade does help (although not in the lower grades ironically).
We are now moving all our books and databases towards Font grades for bouldering.
Alan
Historically Font grades were poor in the lower grades as many who have been spanked by supposedly f3 and f4 problems in Font will testify. However this appears to be being sorted out these days and there is now much better coverage or easier boulder problems and more consistent grading.
There was also the problem that many less experienced climbers couldn't tell the difference between a Font grade - written 7a+ - and a sport grade - written 7a+. The addition of an 'f' in front of this for 'Font' or 'French' didn't help much.
This also has now been sorted a bit better although there is no international agreed standard, but using capitals for the font grade does help (although not in the lower grades ironically).
We are now moving all our books and databases towards Font grades for bouldering.
Alan
4
In reply to olliebristol:
British trad grades up to 5b
Then use French grades for routes, font grades for boulders or to describe crux sequences.
British adjective grades are sometimes useful, but there seems to be a lack of coherence for example VS 5a is sometimes used for routes with no protection where HVS 4c is used in others, or where there is a safe but sustained sequence. Sometimes the R or X abbreviation would be better, but sometimes this is obvious when under the route, sometimes crucial or fiddly gear is not and in those instances the guidebook text is used.
British trad grades up to 5b
Then use French grades for routes, font grades for boulders or to describe crux sequences.
British adjective grades are sometimes useful, but there seems to be a lack of coherence for example VS 5a is sometimes used for routes with no protection where HVS 4c is used in others, or where there is a safe but sustained sequence. Sometimes the R or X abbreviation would be better, but sometimes this is obvious when under the route, sometimes crucial or fiddly gear is not and in those instances the guidebook text is used.
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Simple. Use "Bleau" as nature intended - not the hideous "font" which means that any search turns up "Ariel X" and stuff about bird baths in church.
Simple. Use "Bleau" as nature intended - not the hideous "font" which means that any search turns up "Ariel X" and stuff about bird baths in church.
> There was also the problem that many less experienced climbers couldn't tell the difference between a Font grade - written 7a+ - and a sport grade - written 7a+. The addition of an 'f' in front of this for 'Font' or 'French' didn't help much.
1
1
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
It's interest though, as NIBAS is starting to come in now too & appears to be based on V grades..
V1 = anything from what, F5-6b?! How is that useful to work with, both as a climber & an instructor?
It's interest though, as NIBAS is starting to come in now too & appears to be based on V grades..
V1 = anything from what, F5-6b?! How is that useful to work with, both as a climber & an instructor?
1
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
Subtle difference in grading styles here though between routes & boulders..
route grade is for the single hardest move
font grade is for the technical difficulty of movement up the whole problem...?
One might suggest they don't use trad grades in france because they're not man enough to climb trad
However, they did discover bouldering a lot earlier than here in the Uk so I'll still eat their croissants
Subtle difference in grading styles here though between routes & boulders..
route grade is for the single hardest move
font grade is for the technical difficulty of movement up the whole problem...?
One might suggest they don't use trad grades in france because they're not man enough to climb trad
However, they did discover bouldering a lot earlier than here in the Uk so I'll still eat their croissants
Post edited at 16:57
In reply to olliebristol:
Why not!?! Don't you love those odd V3 6a grades? Quirky and very British...you do realise, don't you, that half the world thinks that the Brits are excentrics?
Living here for so long, I must say that you've never disappointed me! French climbing forums are so boring! The little that I've read of american climbing forums, I found way too earnest. I have never read (though I could) Italian or Spanish ones.
Keep the quirky grades. Argue the toss of the fine blend of dogged traditions vs futuristic outlooks. Britain punches well above its belt in climbing terms (IMHO) not just because of it's rock variety (though it is varied) but also thanks to its climbing scene and ethics.
Let's face it a lot of the rock faces do not exceed 10m (particularly on grit) so nothing to write home about
Why not!?! Don't you love those odd V3 6a grades? Quirky and very British...you do realise, don't you, that half the world thinks that the Brits are excentrics?
Living here for so long, I must say that you've never disappointed me! French climbing forums are so boring! The little that I've read of american climbing forums, I found way too earnest. I have never read (though I could) Italian or Spanish ones.
Keep the quirky grades. Argue the toss of the fine blend of dogged traditions vs futuristic outlooks. Britain punches well above its belt in climbing terms (IMHO) not just because of it's rock variety (though it is varied) but also thanks to its climbing scene and ethics.
Let's face it a lot of the rock faces do not exceed 10m (particularly on grit) so nothing to write home about
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In reply to olliebristol:
France with a capital please! I can come climb with you anytime to show you how bad we are... I see that you're close to the Avon gorge? A place, I've wanted to visit for a while due to its historic place in British climbing. I also have close friends on both sides of the border within an hours drive. Can we have a climbing date? October would be good.
Sport and bouldering are good but trad is prefered (particularly multipitch)
> One might suggest they don't use trad grades in france because they're not man enough to climb trad
France with a capital please! I can come climb with you anytime to show you how bad we are... I see that you're close to the Avon gorge? A place, I've wanted to visit for a while due to its historic place in British climbing. I also have close friends on both sides of the border within an hours drive. Can we have a climbing date? October would be good.
Sport and bouldering are good but trad is prefered (particularly multipitch)
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In reply to olliebristol:
One of the changes we've made in the development version of the logbooks is the ability to choose your preferred boulder grade system. Then the grade and voting for all boulder problems are shown in that system.
We had to add V3+, V4+ and V5+ to make it work but think it's a fair trade off.
The changes should be live in the next month or so depending on how testing goes of the other changes.
One of the changes we've made in the development version of the logbooks is the ability to choose your preferred boulder grade system. Then the grade and voting for all boulder problems are shown in that system.
We had to add V3+, V4+ and V5+ to make it work but think it's a fair trade off.
The changes should be live in the next month or so depending on how testing goes of the other changes.
1
In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:
Or we could all just use font grades & keep it simples, rather than some silly split of V/F? Many boulderers don't even know what Vermin actually graded for but experientially understand the Font numerical system
Hay Erik, happy for some trad sometime. I'm a bit bored of Avon at the mo though. Good routes but just don't really enjoy the noise of the Portway when there are other nicer spots...
Or we could all just use font grades & keep it simples, rather than some silly split of V/F? Many boulderers don't even know what Vermin actually graded for but experientially understand the Font numerical system
Hay Erik, happy for some trad sometime. I'm a bit bored of Avon at the mo though. Good routes but just don't really enjoy the noise of the Portway when there are other nicer spots...
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In reply to olliebristol:
I still support the BMC peak and Rockfax modification for lower grade stuff. Most lower grade boulderers would still probably consider themselves climbers and are most familiar UK tech (which fit better with V grades). Bad grades matter for these people and they form the largest section of the climbing public, hence the largest market for guidebooks. I'd say that no one definitively knows what lower grade font means but the UK is doing a good job of reinvention: the YMC and VG peak bouldering meanings are converging well. In the end, the two systems are linear, easily translatable systems so for performance boulderers, despite all this hot air of protestation, it doesnt matter.
I still support the BMC peak and Rockfax modification for lower grade stuff. Most lower grade boulderers would still probably consider themselves climbers and are most familiar UK tech (which fit better with V grades). Bad grades matter for these people and they form the largest section of the climbing public, hence the largest market for guidebooks. I'd say that no one definitively knows what lower grade font means but the UK is doing a good job of reinvention: the YMC and VG peak bouldering meanings are converging well. In the end, the two systems are linear, easily translatable systems so for performance boulderers, despite all this hot air of protestation, it doesnt matter.
Post edited at 00:56
In reply to Offwidth:
what is that exactly?
My idea is to just use British tech grade up to 5c ( and add adjecteval grade if highball/micro route) then above that, where performance bouldering sort of starts use V and Font grades together (V3/f6A upwards).
Does that work?
> I still support the BMC peak and Rockfax modification for lower grade stuff.
what is that exactly?
My idea is to just use British tech grade up to 5c ( and add adjecteval grade if highball/micro route) then above that, where performance bouldering sort of starts use V and Font grades together (V3/f6A upwards).
Does that work?
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
BMC peak grit was V and UK tech. Rockfax Peak Bouldering was pretty much your suggestion (but with V grades for all). I also helped a bit on the YMC and the latest peak VG bouldering guide and low grade font worked there because stuff was based on an understandable alternative system and checked better by mortals. YMC pretty much translate from UK tech with fiddle factors for sustained stuff: f3 ~ 4a, f3+ ~ 4b, f4 ~4c, f4+ ~5a and although this is way easier than grades in 'the forest' it fits better under the better established standards from f6A up.
V or font is better if you have lots of sustained problems (on your system you should fairly call a sustained prangable, 5c a F6a as it is, but a similar 5b may be better at 5c )
BMC peak grit was V and UK tech. Rockfax Peak Bouldering was pretty much your suggestion (but with V grades for all). I also helped a bit on the YMC and the latest peak VG bouldering guide and low grade font worked there because stuff was based on an understandable alternative system and checked better by mortals. YMC pretty much translate from UK tech with fiddle factors for sustained stuff: f3 ~ 4a, f3+ ~ 4b, f4 ~4c, f4+ ~5a and although this is way easier than grades in 'the forest' it fits better under the better established standards from f6A up.
V or font is better if you have lots of sustained problems (on your system you should fairly call a sustained prangable, 5c a F6a as it is, but a similar 5b may be better at 5c )
Post edited at 11:20
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
or just use Font grades, which work seamlessly from f1a to f8c+
I have climbed a f1a, and it was worthwhile! According to UKC I have climbed ~75 boulder problems at f2+ and below... (unsurprisingly in Font!) :P
or just use Font grades, which work seamlessly from f1a to f8c+
I have climbed a f1a, and it was worthwhile! According to UKC I have climbed ~75 boulder problems at f2+ and below... (unsurprisingly in Font!) :P
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In reply to olliebristol:
I prefer the V grade. Much more logical to have a simple incremental integer than a number, then a letter between A and C, then maybe a +
I prefer the V grade. Much more logical to have a simple incremental integer than a number, then a letter between A and C, then maybe a +
1
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In reply to olliebristol:
Isn't that UK Tech grades? If we are going to start replacing things with Font grades UK Tech grades should be first against the wall.
> Are V grades used just by old & lonely tradders..?
Isn't that UK Tech grades? If we are going to start replacing things with Font grades UK Tech grades should be first against the wall.
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In reply to Jimbo C:
Unless you're a fat traddy or a beginner, in which case you suddenly have to work out how a letter and possibly a plus or a minus fits in with the simple incremental integers.
> I prefer the V grade. Much more logical to have a simple incremental integer than a number, then a letter between A and C, then maybe a +
Unless you're a fat traddy or a beginner, in which case you suddenly have to work out how a letter and possibly a plus or a minus fits in with the simple incremental integers.
In reply to olliebristol:
I'm still trying to figure out how a 'tradder' can be lonely, since Trad is usually performed by climbing as a pair or more.........boulderers on the other hand...
I'm still trying to figure out how a 'tradder' can be lonely, since Trad is usually performed by climbing as a pair or more.........boulderers on the other hand...
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In reply to Jimbo C:
Simpler? This is how they 'work' for low grades on Dartmoor:
3c
4a
4b
4c
5a or V0-
5a or V0
5a or V0+
V1
V2
...
(OK a little bit unfair as the low grades are done with English tech grades but the alternative is just VB, which isn't even an integer!)
> I prefer the V grade. Much more logical to have a simple incremental integer than a number, then a letter between A and C, then maybe a +
Simpler? This is how they 'work' for low grades on Dartmoor:
3c
4a
4b
4c
5a or V0-
5a or V0
5a or V0+
V1
V2
...
(OK a little bit unfair as the low grades are done with English tech grades but the alternative is just VB, which isn't even an integer!)
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Ok I'll rise to this nonsense defence of lower grade font grades in font., First off I really appreciate the effort put in by UK guidebook teams but in font I have the following experiences from hundreds of hours on lower grade stuff and attempts at the odd harder problem:
f1: UK Diff moves to UK VS 4b
f2: UK VD moves to UK 5a weird moves I had to back off and retry as someone who is super experienced on sandstone and has flashed f6a.
f3 UK 4a to solid Uk 6a slab (UK f6A+/f6B). I have failed on many.
f4 a rare UK 4c to impossible to the power of 4 (with the exception ot the Uk 4b jamming crack at Diplodocus)
f5 UK 5b to f*cking f*ckers f*cking f*cked f*ck
f6A UK 5c to pretty tough for UK 6a. Is the the start of a grading system I can rely on?
f6B upwards: bloody hard but sanity restored.
You are either deluded or an idiot supporting low grade font in font as a basis for a system for lower grade climbers. It's all driven from the top or reinvented in the UK. The grades are stick the tail in the donkey with a blindfold and if anything worse in the most popular areas.
Ok I'll rise to this nonsense defence of lower grade font grades in font., First off I really appreciate the effort put in by UK guidebook teams but in font I have the following experiences from hundreds of hours on lower grade stuff and attempts at the odd harder problem:
f1: UK Diff moves to UK VS 4b
f2: UK VD moves to UK 5a weird moves I had to back off and retry as someone who is super experienced on sandstone and has flashed f6a.
f3 UK 4a to solid Uk 6a slab (UK f6A+/f6B). I have failed on many.
f4 a rare UK 4c to impossible to the power of 4 (with the exception ot the Uk 4b jamming crack at Diplodocus)
f5 UK 5b to f*cking f*ckers f*cking f*cked f*ck
f6A UK 5c to pretty tough for UK 6a. Is the the start of a grading system I can rely on?
f6B upwards: bloody hard but sanity restored.
You are either deluded or an idiot supporting low grade font in font as a basis for a system for lower grade climbers. It's all driven from the top or reinvented in the UK. The grades are stick the tail in the donkey with a blindfold and if anything worse in the most popular areas.
Post edited at 17:40
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In reply to Offwidth:
I'd be interested in a list of your Font 3s in the forest that correspond to 6A+/B in the U.K.
I'd be interested in a list of your Font 3s in the forest that correspond to 6A+/B in the U.K.
In reply to Offwidth:
Since I have (with one dubious exception) never managed to climb anything harder than 6a in Font (or elsewhere? and then only very few), you may be correct and if I climbed the harder grades perhaps I would see that the grades there were much less variable. I would certainly agree that most grades are at least +/- 1 number grade (arguing over the details of '2c+' vs '3a-' is obviously nonsense!). But even assuming that all grades in the Forest below 6a are complete rubbish, the problem isn't with the grading system itself but with the ability of climbers (usually better climbers?) to grade problems that are 'easy' but are often polished in the popular areas (often making the slabs a nightmare!). The grading system is just a series of numbers after all...
The British trad solution seems to simply be not to bother grading anything below 4a, and it is still often difficult to tell the difference between 4a/4b. I often ask myself where the crux was on a 4b pitch and have no idea; how can I then argue what is the hardest move?
Is it better just not to bother trying to grade stuff below Font 4? Is stuff that 'easy' just too difficult to grade for a grade to be meaningful? If you can, then Font grades are a better grading _system_ to reflect that, as you can split the lower grades (although I would suggest just f1, f2, f3, f4, f4+, f5, f5+ would do).
Next time I go to Font I'm going to try and do a circuit and estimate grades myself, and see how badly they correlate to the actual grades. I am fully prepared to find out the grades are rubbish
Since I have (with one dubious exception) never managed to climb anything harder than 6a in Font (or elsewhere? and then only very few), you may be correct and if I climbed the harder grades perhaps I would see that the grades there were much less variable. I would certainly agree that most grades are at least +/- 1 number grade (arguing over the details of '2c+' vs '3a-' is obviously nonsense!). But even assuming that all grades in the Forest below 6a are complete rubbish, the problem isn't with the grading system itself but with the ability of climbers (usually better climbers?) to grade problems that are 'easy' but are often polished in the popular areas (often making the slabs a nightmare!). The grading system is just a series of numbers after all...
The British trad solution seems to simply be not to bother grading anything below 4a, and it is still often difficult to tell the difference between 4a/4b. I often ask myself where the crux was on a 4b pitch and have no idea; how can I then argue what is the hardest move?
Is it better just not to bother trying to grade stuff below Font 4? Is stuff that 'easy' just too difficult to grade for a grade to be meaningful? If you can, then Font grades are a better grading _system_ to reflect that, as you can split the lower grades (although I would suggest just f1, f2, f3, f4, f4+, f5, f5+ would do).
Next time I go to Font I'm going to try and do a circuit and estimate grades myself, and see how badly they correlate to the actual grades. I am fully prepared to find out the grades are rubbish
Post edited at 18:32
1
In reply to Offwidth:
But the Font system is at least meant to be able to usefully grade both UK Diff standard moves and cutting edge hard stuff. In the long run it could be made to work in UK guidebooks by picking a consistent mapping to UK trad for the low end and sticking to it, and you'd then have a fairly neat system that describes easy routes well, is consistent with Font grades to the extent that Font grades are consistent with themselves, and that doesn't involve squashing together two grading systems to make up for each others' failings or having a grading system that's a nice clean progression of integers at one end and a horrible mash of Bs and minuses at the other.
But the Font system is at least meant to be able to usefully grade both UK Diff standard moves and cutting edge hard stuff. In the long run it could be made to work in UK guidebooks by picking a consistent mapping to UK trad for the low end and sticking to it, and you'd then have a fairly neat system that describes easy routes well, is consistent with Font grades to the extent that Font grades are consistent with themselves, and that doesn't involve squashing together two grading systems to make up for each others' failings or having a grading system that's a nice clean progression of integers at one end and a horrible mash of Bs and minuses at the other.
Post edited at 18:51
In reply to Ramblin dave:
One thing I have noticed is that the notional "average" climber that they seem to grade for in Bleau is both shorter and weaker than a UK climber might expect but has better footwork.
This makes sense as the "community" has historically not been as dominated by young males as it is here and have learned to climb on rock not plastic.
This means that, for example, that a route on which you can avoid the crux by a long reach can get a higher grade than you might expect.
One thing I have noticed is that the notional "average" climber that they seem to grade for in Bleau is both shorter and weaker than a UK climber might expect but has better footwork.
This makes sense as the "community" has historically not been as dominated by young males as it is here and have learned to climb on rock not plastic.
This means that, for example, that a route on which you can avoid the crux by a long reach can get a higher grade than you might expect.
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Couldn't agree more. I've been spending the last few days following colour circuits (not in Font) without knowing the exact grades, with the expectation that if I get spanked on a particular problem, I'm in working it for the long haul. The Font 2s and 3s are the Jaune (enfants et debutants) circuit, with the proper circuits starting at Font 4 (green circuit). The Rock is either Granite or Gneiss, and once you've got used to the vagaries of being away from grit, the grades make sense. You can throw whatever numbers you like at it, but bouldering starts around Font 4.
> Is it better just not to bother trying to grade stuff below Font 4? Is stuff that 'easy' just too difficult to grade for a grade to be meaningful? If you can, then Font grades are a better grading _system_ to reflect that, as you can split the lower grades (although I would suggest just f1, f2, f3, f4, f4+, f5, f5+ would do).
Couldn't agree more. I've been spending the last few days following colour circuits (not in Font) without knowing the exact grades, with the expectation that if I get spanked on a particular problem, I'm in working it for the long haul. The Font 2s and 3s are the Jaune (enfants et debutants) circuit, with the proper circuits starting at Font 4 (green circuit). The Rock is either Granite or Gneiss, and once you've got used to the vagaries of being away from grit, the grades make sense. You can throw whatever numbers you like at it, but bouldering starts around Font 4.
Post edited at 20:20
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
Maybe because the stuff we have graded on grit below f4 includes many of the most popular problems in the UK. Good coverage of V0 and below stuff sells guidebooks. Yellow circuits are a proxy grade in any case (in font, yellow, orange and white kids circuits are the most popular) and also sell guidebooks. Font has been showing the way for decades but the wonderful modern indoor facilities and an increased coverage of the lower grade stuff means UK bouldering as family fun or just puntering about is becoming as much a subculture as the beanie brigade.
Maybe because the stuff we have graded on grit below f4 includes many of the most popular problems in the UK. Good coverage of V0 and below stuff sells guidebooks. Yellow circuits are a proxy grade in any case (in font, yellow, orange and white kids circuits are the most popular) and also sell guidebooks. Font has been showing the way for decades but the wonderful modern indoor facilities and an increased coverage of the lower grade stuff means UK bouldering as family fun or just puntering about is becoming as much a subculture as the beanie brigade.
1
In reply to olliebristol:
I suppose its what you're used to. The first bouldering grades I encountered were at Hueco so I was pretty used to them and I can still relate to them much better than font grades.
But personally I prefer a straight number system like the V system or the Aussie one. When french/font grades go up from either a plus or up by a number (6c+ to 7a for instance) it suggests something special like breaking some kind of barrier. But the reality is its just another grade and a straight number system more accurately reflects that. 8a has bit of an aura about it for instance.
The V system has been criticised for not going low enough. It originated from a time when only pretty experienced climbers would boulder so that made sense.
I've heard it said that the font system works differently than the V system and so they shouldn't directly correlate anyway. Can't remember the reason why now, something to do with font emphasizing technical difficulty over power I think.
Aside from that I agree the gradual expansion of the American empire should be resisted at all costs. I just noticed we have Taco Bell over here now. Having said that I don't think V grades are really part of the problem.
I suppose its what you're used to. The first bouldering grades I encountered were at Hueco so I was pretty used to them and I can still relate to them much better than font grades.
But personally I prefer a straight number system like the V system or the Aussie one. When french/font grades go up from either a plus or up by a number (6c+ to 7a for instance) it suggests something special like breaking some kind of barrier. But the reality is its just another grade and a straight number system more accurately reflects that. 8a has bit of an aura about it for instance.
The V system has been criticised for not going low enough. It originated from a time when only pretty experienced climbers would boulder so that made sense.
I've heard it said that the font system works differently than the V system and so they shouldn't directly correlate anyway. Can't remember the reason why now, something to do with font emphasizing technical difficulty over power I think.
Aside from that I agree the gradual expansion of the American empire should be resisted at all costs. I just noticed we have Taco Bell over here now. Having said that I don't think V grades are really part of the problem.
1
In reply to stp:
As I understand, Font grades aim to reflect the easiest technical movement up the given style of problem? Thus, sandbags aside, something can often seem out of grade perhaps because you've not found the easiest movement.
As a comparison this article puts F7a as V6 & F8c as v15: http://www.climbing.com/climber/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-bouldering-g...
By extension then
7b = v7
7c = v8
8a = v9
8b = v10
8c = v16
Trying it again:
7a+ = v7
7b = v8
7b+ = v9
7c = v10
7c+ = v11
8a = v12
8a+ = v13
8b = v14
8b+ = v15
8c =
get's closer, but I'm still confused here. I'm not even going to try explaining the lower ones which most people climb on just because I can't (even though as an instructor I should be able to)..
7a = v6
6c+ = v5
6c = v4
6b+ = v3
6b = v2
6a+ = v1
6a = v0
5c =
As I understand, Font grades aim to reflect the easiest technical movement up the given style of problem? Thus, sandbags aside, something can often seem out of grade perhaps because you've not found the easiest movement.
As a comparison this article puts F7a as V6 & F8c as v15: http://www.climbing.com/climber/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-bouldering-g...
By extension then
7b = v7
7c = v8
8a = v9
8b = v10
8c = v16
Trying it again:
7a+ = v7
7b = v8
7b+ = v9
7c = v10
7c+ = v11
8a = v12
8a+ = v13
8b = v14
8b+ = v15
8c =
get's closer, but I'm still confused here. I'm not even going to try explaining the lower ones which most people climb on just because I can't (even though as an instructor I should be able to)..
7a = v6
6c+ = v5
6c = v4
6b+ = v3
6b = v2
6a+ = v1
6a = v0
5c =
In reply to olliebristol:
I think a common solution is:
7a+ = V7
7b = V8
7b+ = V8+
7c = V9
7c+ = V10
8a = V11
8a+ = V12
8b = V13
8b+ = V14
8c = V15
with the addition of a V8+ grade. But of course V grades are a simple integer series, right? :P
http://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades/
> Trying it again:
> 7a+ = v7 [etc]
> 7a+ = v7 [etc]
I think a common solution is:
7a+ = V7
7b = V8
7b+ = V8+
7c = V9
7c+ = V10
8a = V11
8a+ = V12
8b = V13
8b+ = V14
8c = V15
with the addition of a V8+ grade. But of course V grades are a simple integer series, right? :P
http://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades/
Post edited at 13:03
In reply to olliebristol:
f2 = N/A
f2+ = N/A
f3 = VB
f3+ = V0-
f4 = V0
f4+ = V0+
f5 = V1
f5+ = V2
f6A = V3
f6A+ = V3+
f6B = V4
f6B+ = V4+
f6C = V5
f6C+ = V5+
f7A = V6
f7A+ = V7
f7B = V8
f7B+ = V8+
f7C = V9
f7C+ = V10
f8A = V11
f8A+ = V12
f8B = V13
f8B+ = V14
f8C = V15
f2 = N/A
f2+ = N/A
f3 = VB
f3+ = V0-
f4 = V0
f4+ = V0+
f5 = V1
f5+ = V2
f6A = V3
f6A+ = V3+
f6B = V4
f6B+ = V4+
f6C = V5
f6C+ = V5+
f7A = V6
f7A+ = V7
f7B = V8
f7B+ = V8+
f7C = V9
f7C+ = V10
f8A = V11
f8A+ = V12
f8B = V13
f8B+ = V14
f8C = V15
2
In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:
f1 = Scramble grade 1
Not sure if you're taking inclusivity seriously Paul, so I've completed the list down to f1 before you get told off
f1 = Scramble grade 1
> f2 = Scramble grade 2
> f2+ = Scramble grade 3
> f3 = VB
> f3+ = V0-
> f4 = V0
> f4+ = V0+
> f5 = V1
> f5+ = V2
> f6A = V3
> f6A+ = V3+
> f6B = V4
> f6B+ = V4+
> f6C = V5
> f6C+ = V5+
> f7A = V6
> f7A+ = V7
> f7B = V8
> f7B+ = V8+
> f7C = V9
> f7C+ = V10
> f8A = V11
> f8A+ = V12
> f8B = V13
> f8B+ = V14
> f8C = V15
> f2+ = Scramble grade 3
> f3 = VB
> f3+ = V0-
> f4 = V0
> f4+ = V0+
> f5 = V1
> f5+ = V2
> f6A = V3
> f6A+ = V3+
> f6B = V4
> f6B+ = V4+
> f6C = V5
> f6C+ = V5+
> f7A = V6
> f7A+ = V7
> f7B = V8
> f7B+ = V8+
> f7C = V9
> f7C+ = V10
> f8A = V11
> f8A+ = V12
> f8B = V13
> f8B+ = V14
> f8C = V15
Not sure if you're taking inclusivity seriously Paul, so I've completed the list down to f1 before you get told off
1
Haha
V0- V0 V0+ ....
or we could just use Font grades. So much simpler!
V0- V0 V0+ ....
or we could just use Font grades. So much simpler!
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
Most guides still have f6A = V2 with the easiest 6a problems (but more likely hard work at 5c). I think this as a benchmark that shouldnt shift so I'd recommend getting rid of V3+ and cascade the lower grade equivalences. f1 is a climb, not an easy scramble, typical of that on a diff (f2 VD; f3 Severe)
Most guides still have f6A = V2 with the easiest 6a problems (but more likely hard work at 5c). I think this as a benchmark that shouldnt shift so I'd recommend getting rid of V3+ and cascade the lower grade equivalences. f1 is a climb, not an easy scramble, typical of that on a diff (f2 VD; f3 Severe)
In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:
To be fair it's possible to walk to the top of some boulders. So really you should have...
W1 Walking on level ground. Only the easiest boulder problems would get this.
W2 Walking on uneven ground or some uphill (not steep).
W3 Strenuous uphill walking. For experienced walkers only.
How these would fit into the Font and V grade systems I'll leave to others to decide.
To be fair it's possible to walk to the top of some boulders. So really you should have...
W1 Walking on level ground. Only the easiest boulder problems would get this.
W2 Walking on uneven ground or some uphill (not steep).
W3 Strenuous uphill walking. For experienced walkers only.
How these would fit into the Font and V grade systems I'll leave to others to decide.
1
In reply to Michael Gordon:
W4 Seriously technical hands-free slabbing.
W5 Only Johnny Dawes need apply.
W4 Seriously technical hands-free slabbing.
W5 Only Johnny Dawes need apply.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Surely this is a joke? Do you really advocate only having boulder grades of uk 4c to 7b?
The difference between v3 (6b) and v7 (6b) is quite a jump!
Surely this is a joke? Do you really advocate only having boulder grades of uk 4c to 7b?
The difference between v3 (6b) and v7 (6b) is quite a jump!
In reply to ashtond6:
Yes it was a joke, but I don't understand the rest of your comment. I was saying that if there is any grading system that should be scrapped and replaced with Font grades it is the UK tech grades which look like Font grades but aren't quite.
> Surely this is a joke? Do you really advocate only having boulder grades of uk 4c to 7b?
Yes it was a joke, but I don't understand the rest of your comment. I was saying that if there is any grading system that should be scrapped and replaced with Font grades it is the UK tech grades which look like Font grades but aren't quite.
Post edited at 20:55
In reply to Michael Gordon:
You can walk to the top of Stanage your point is?
I've got no british beef with UK tech grades, the system generally works.
My point is about boulder grades not route grades: V grades don't work so let's not use them!
You can walk to the top of Stanage your point is?
I've got no british beef with UK tech grades, the system generally works.
My point is about boulder grades not route grades: V grades don't work so let's not use them!
1
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
The grade comparison tables are great and all, but pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease can we have one standardised grading system for bouldering? I understand that trad is a different beast, but is there any major reason why we can't standardise bouldering?
The grade comparison tables are great and all, but pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease can we have one standardised grading system for bouldering? I understand that trad is a different beast, but is there any major reason why we can't standardise bouldering?
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
Should we all standardise our bodies as well so the grades actually mean the same to all of us? I find it pretty bizzarre that in an activity that is all about the quality of problem solving that people get upset about having two (often highly subjective... reach dependant, morpho or whatever) alternative labels that mean EXACTLY the same thing.
Should we all standardise our bodies as well so the grades actually mean the same to all of us? I find it pretty bizzarre that in an activity that is all about the quality of problem solving that people get upset about having two (often highly subjective... reach dependant, morpho or whatever) alternative labels that mean EXACTLY the same thing.
In reply to :
For me, f5c = V2, and f6a = V4, cos those are what I've been able to flash or work, respectively.
And that makes no sense to me, and isn't found on any comparison table.
And with roughly equal experience of each, I still totally don't understand either system.
I don't think I 'get' bouldering. Do the grades only start to make sense if you're prepared to try something like, four times or more?
For me, f5c = V2, and f6a = V4, cos those are what I've been able to flash or work, respectively.
And that makes no sense to me, and isn't found on any comparison table.
And with roughly equal experience of each, I still totally don't understand either system.
I don't think I 'get' bouldering. Do the grades only start to make sense if you're prepared to try something like, four times or more?
In reply to Just Another Dave:
Bouldering grades are for the easiest worked sequence not for the flash.
Rockfax have fairly recently distorted the V grade system seemingly to make life easier for lower grade climbers. I dont mind if this settles down as an accepted standard but in the meantime its potentially confusing as most others are either using V2 as equivalent to f6A or borderline f5+/6a. Rockfax better matches the situation in font but thats because a lot of the 6a's are polished and now too hard for the grade (and not a few f5+ problems are more like V4 or V5!). Rockfax problems on the logbooks now automatically have f6A = f5+ but other areas not included in Rockfax will often use the f6A equivalence for logbook entry.
As I said in one of my posts above, font grades for trad punters need tying down to some rough equivalence of English tech (taking how sustained they are into account) like VG and the YMC have done. Rockfax have their heart in the right place but since some old Severe 4c wiggles are now down as V2 on some of their new problems ...to me definitive f5+ cleft (BMC V1 5b) is something a good bit harder like Seconds Out on the Roaches spring boulders....they really need logbook voters to think trad to iron out such anomalies (or maybe to send in Simon Caldwell).
Bouldering grades are for the easiest worked sequence not for the flash.
Rockfax have fairly recently distorted the V grade system seemingly to make life easier for lower grade climbers. I dont mind if this settles down as an accepted standard but in the meantime its potentially confusing as most others are either using V2 as equivalent to f6A or borderline f5+/6a. Rockfax better matches the situation in font but thats because a lot of the 6a's are polished and now too hard for the grade (and not a few f5+ problems are more like V4 or V5!). Rockfax problems on the logbooks now automatically have f6A = f5+ but other areas not included in Rockfax will often use the f6A equivalence for logbook entry.
As I said in one of my posts above, font grades for trad punters need tying down to some rough equivalence of English tech (taking how sustained they are into account) like VG and the YMC have done. Rockfax have their heart in the right place but since some old Severe 4c wiggles are now down as V2 on some of their new problems ...to me definitive f5+ cleft (BMC V1 5b) is something a good bit harder like Seconds Out on the Roaches spring boulders....they really need logbook voters to think trad to iron out such anomalies (or maybe to send in Simon Caldwell).
Post edited at 11:35
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