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Are these the new wheel clampers?
B*stards are tying to charge No 2 son £71 for not having a £1.20 ticket that he expected and was able to buy on the train, (as I would), because there happened to be a ticket machine - that's not even on the station, and not particularly visible from where he approaches the platform - where he could have purchased one. There is no signage anywhere that says this change - i.e. an obligation to purchase a ticket before travel - has occurred.
What's going on?
B*stards are tying to charge No 2 son £71 for not having a £1.20 ticket that he expected and was able to buy on the train, (as I would), because there happened to be a ticket machine - that's not even on the station, and not particularly visible from where he approaches the platform - where he could have purchased one. There is no signage anywhere that says this change - i.e. an obligation to purchase a ticket before travel - has occurred.
What's going on?
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
If your son genuinely wanted to pay for a ticket, but was unable too, then legally he only has to pay the cost of the ticket. Now the rail company will try to make out that you will be prosecuted, could recieve a £xxx amount fine, and you will receive a crimnal record, but if you pay this fine we will just go away. Its a con, and a pretty deceptive one at that.
Do a little research online, make sure that the document is written correctly, most aren't.
The problem with your sons situation is that the rail company are petty, and he might get a summons, in which case the prosecution will drop the case, the judge will throw it out, or he might have to pay the original the ticket price.
The question i would put to your son would be:
a) do you want the bother of a court appearance just to win the moral argument?
b) would you rather just pay the fine and have done?
What i find so frustrating about the situation is that either way you inconvenienced a great deal, and (you)the tax payer is once again having to foot the bill for a ridiculous waste of time!
If your son genuinely wanted to pay for a ticket, but was unable too, then legally he only has to pay the cost of the ticket. Now the rail company will try to make out that you will be prosecuted, could recieve a £xxx amount fine, and you will receive a crimnal record, but if you pay this fine we will just go away. Its a con, and a pretty deceptive one at that.
Do a little research online, make sure that the document is written correctly, most aren't.
The problem with your sons situation is that the rail company are petty, and he might get a summons, in which case the prosecution will drop the case, the judge will throw it out, or he might have to pay the original the ticket price.
The question i would put to your son would be:
a) do you want the bother of a court appearance just to win the moral argument?
b) would you rather just pay the fine and have done?
What i find so frustrating about the situation is that either way you inconvenienced a great deal, and (you)the tax payer is once again having to foot the bill for a ridiculous waste of time!
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Because it happened in the early 90s...
I think you have a defence in that you can't see the ticket machine, though!
> There is no signage anywhere that says this change - i.e. an obligation to purchase a ticket before travel - has occurred.
Because it happened in the early 90s...
I think you have a defence in that you can't see the ticket machine, though!
2
In reply to climbwhenready:
'Because it happened in the early 90s...'
Well the legislative change may have occurred, but the ticket machine only appeared in the last couple of years - and was initially incredibly unreliable as well, to the extent that the bloke who sold tickets before 9:00 am used to say don't bother with it!
'Because it happened in the early 90s...'
Well the legislative change may have occurred, but the ticket machine only appeared in the last couple of years - and was initially incredibly unreliable as well, to the extent that the bloke who sold tickets before 9:00 am used to say don't bother with it!
In reply to Zoro:
Wrong. He could get a summons, be forced to pay the fine PLUS extra towards court costs.
The important part thing here is you get charged for having no ticket or an incorrect ticket with intent to avoid paying the fare. The intent bit is important.
When you get the initial letter you Al can respond with your side and only after you get letter two do you need to pay the fine. so you can appeal the fine. Sending pictures showing how miserable the machine is well likely mean you can avoid the fine.
The odds bit is that he's getting fined. Generally they'll let you pay on the train or at the barrier when you finish your journey. Are you sure he didn't attempt to go through a ticket barrier with no ticket? Or try and dodge the guy on the train or something?
Wrong. He could get a summons, be forced to pay the fine PLUS extra towards court costs.
The important part thing here is you get charged for having no ticket or an incorrect ticket with intent to avoid paying the fare. The intent bit is important.
When you get the initial letter you Al can respond with your side and only after you get letter two do you need to pay the fine. so you can appeal the fine. Sending pictures showing how miserable the machine is well likely mean you can avoid the fine.
The odds bit is that he's getting fined. Generally they'll let you pay on the train or at the barrier when you finish your journey. Are you sure he didn't attempt to go through a ticket barrier with no ticket? Or try and dodge the guy on the train or something?
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Wait... So the machine has been there a couple of years, and you knew about it but your son didn't? This does sound a bit fishy
Wait... So the machine has been there a couple of years, and you knew about it but your son didn't? This does sound a bit fishy
2
In reply to Scarab9:
a) He's at university, so wouldn't be aware, and b) I'm not, and I have always bought tickets on the train; not once has anyone ever said I shouldn't have done so.
a) He's at university, so wouldn't be aware, and b) I'm not, and I have always bought tickets on the train; not once has anyone ever said I shouldn't have done so.
2
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Yeah that's why I'm wondering what exactly happened. I've very occasionally heard a grumpy inspector (or whatever they're titled these dayS) having a bit of a moan at someone for not having gotten a ticket before they got on and to do so next time, but they then just sell the ticket.
Was it someone on the train that took his details or at the arrival station? was there a barrier he tried to walk through or did they take his details when he went to pay on arrival? what happened?
it sounds very unusual.
Also "not once has anyone ever said I shouldn't have done so" - there's posters all over the place and have been for years. I find it odd (actually pretty much impossible) that you weren't aware that you are meant to get a ticket before boarding if there are facilities to do so. It sounds more like "I knew but have always gotten away with it", which as mentioned you almost certainly wil as long as you pay when asked.
> and I have always bought tickets on the train; not once has anyone ever said I shouldn't have done so.
Yeah that's why I'm wondering what exactly happened. I've very occasionally heard a grumpy inspector (or whatever they're titled these dayS) having a bit of a moan at someone for not having gotten a ticket before they got on and to do so next time, but they then just sell the ticket.
Was it someone on the train that took his details or at the arrival station? was there a barrier he tried to walk through or did they take his details when he went to pay on arrival? what happened?
it sounds very unusual.
Also "not once has anyone ever said I shouldn't have done so" - there's posters all over the place and have been for years. I find it odd (actually pretty much impossible) that you weren't aware that you are meant to get a ticket before boarding if there are facilities to do so. It sounds more like "I knew but have always gotten away with it", which as mentioned you almost certainly wil as long as you pay when asked.
3
In reply to The New NickB:
Certainly easy enough to buy tickets on the train or exit barrier where I am (Glasgow) if the train arrives before you get to the front of the queue at the ticket machine at my local station. Unless there are barriers it is difficult to know which operators don't work that way.
> Half the problem is that different operators have different policies.
Certainly easy enough to buy tickets on the train or exit barrier where I am (Glasgow) if the train arrives before you get to the front of the queue at the ticket machine at my local station. Unless there are barriers it is difficult to know which operators don't work that way.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
I've not looked at this but I think it might be a good resource -
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/site/resolver
I've not looked at this but I think it might be a good resource -
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/site/resolver
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
There was a story on this on Law in Action on R4 recently that maybe worth finding on the iPlayer. I seem to remember that the rail operators seemed to be trying it on.
There was a story on this on Law in Action on R4 recently that maybe worth finding on the iPlayer. I seem to remember that the rail operators seemed to be trying it on.
This must be regional, because as someone who was a teenager in the 90s travelling on Network Southeast, I knew you needed either a ticket or a permit to travel ticket from the machines on the platform - that would be turned into a ticket on the train. No where did you get on a train without going through a ticket office or using the permit to travel machine.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=permit+to+travel&oq=permit+to+travel
Post edited at 08:38
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
They are barstewarads. If the signage was inadequate, you can appeal but it is an arse and the whole process is designed to beat to you into submission to the point that you just give up and pay. There is some good stuff online though and it is worth doing. I successfully appealed a ticket from Parking Eye for an overstay. I downloaded a model letter off the net, and rewrote it. It was basically full of mumbo-jumbo legal boll0cks. They didn't write to tell me my account was zeroed. I only found out when I eventually gave up the will to live and decided to pay. Only there was nothing to pay.
Good luck!
They are barstewarads. If the signage was inadequate, you can appeal but it is an arse and the whole process is designed to beat to you into submission to the point that you just give up and pay. There is some good stuff online though and it is worth doing. I successfully appealed a ticket from Parking Eye for an overstay. I downloaded a model letter off the net, and rewrote it. It was basically full of mumbo-jumbo legal boll0cks. They didn't write to tell me my account was zeroed. I only found out when I eventually gave up the will to live and decided to pay. Only there was nothing to pay.
Good luck!
1
In reply to Philip:
As I said earlier, different operators, different policies.
I remember using SE Trains in the 90s as a student, you needed a ticket or permit to travel to get on a train. I can still get on a train at my local station and either buy a ticket on the train or at my destination. I was recently on the line between Bournemouth and London and you could buy tickets on the train then. I think it comes down to the business model of the operator, ie. how likely are you to see a ticket inspector, probably close to 100% on the services I'm talking about. Maybe 5% on SE trains.
As I said earlier, different operators, different policies.
I remember using SE Trains in the 90s as a student, you needed a ticket or permit to travel to get on a train. I can still get on a train at my local station and either buy a ticket on the train or at my destination. I was recently on the line between Bournemouth and London and you could buy tickets on the train then. I think it comes down to the business model of the operator, ie. how likely are you to see a ticket inspector, probably close to 100% on the services I'm talking about. Maybe 5% on SE trains.
In reply to The New NickB:
Well it gets even more bizarre.
Today I caught a train from Grangetown to Radyr. I noticed there was a ticket machine - though absolutely NO SIGNAGE saying you had to buy a ticket before boarding, nor could there be because it was card only, and I chose not to pay by card. Is there a law that says now you must have credit cards at all times? Because I must have missed that one.
So I got on the train and eventually after 2 - 3 stops the guard came round to inspect tickets, and sold me a return, didn't say a word except 'thank you.' No suggestion that I had broken the law, or was liable to a fine. There was another passenger in front of me who did exactly the same - I'm damn sure she didn't realise she was a criminal either.
Kafka motivated by profit.
Well it gets even more bizarre.
Today I caught a train from Grangetown to Radyr. I noticed there was a ticket machine - though absolutely NO SIGNAGE saying you had to buy a ticket before boarding, nor could there be because it was card only, and I chose not to pay by card. Is there a law that says now you must have credit cards at all times? Because I must have missed that one.
So I got on the train and eventually after 2 - 3 stops the guard came round to inspect tickets, and sold me a return, didn't say a word except 'thank you.' No suggestion that I had broken the law, or was liable to a fine. There was another passenger in front of me who did exactly the same - I'm damn sure she didn't realise she was a criminal either.
Kafka motivated by profit.
In reply to ByEek:
You are talking about a (private) parking ticket which is a civil matter and comes under the scope of completely different legislation to criminal acts concerning the railways.
You are talking about a (private) parking ticket which is a civil matter and comes under the scope of completely different legislation to criminal acts concerning the railways.
1
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
>Kafka motivated by profit.
But today is Friday, which is quite different.
Trains are bizarre. On my morning commmute, there is a machine, a ticket office and person checking tickets before you are allowed on the platform. Then another person checking tickets on the train (who will also sell you one if you somehow got past the person at the station). Then about five more people checking tickets when you get off the train. Then they put up prices by inflation+ each year.
>Kafka motivated by profit.
But today is Friday, which is quite different.
Trains are bizarre. On my morning commmute, there is a machine, a ticket office and person checking tickets before you are allowed on the platform. Then another person checking tickets on the train (who will also sell you one if you somehow got past the person at the station). Then about five more people checking tickets when you get off the train. Then they put up prices by inflation+ each year.
In reply to MG:
Off peak, only a couple of stops on a local line, quite possible.
> A £1.20 train ticket?
Off peak, only a couple of stops on a local line, quite possible.
In reply to The New NickB:
With a discount, yes. Otherwise you would be quicker walking, if such a fare exists!
With a discount, yes. Otherwise you would be quicker walking, if such a fare exists!
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
I live in the same sort of area as you Rob. They do spot checks at stations, if the station you get on at has a ticket booth or ticket machine they take down your details and caution you "you have the right to remain silent" etc.
If the station you got on at doesn't have a ticket machine, and you didn't get change to buy one on the train I am not sure what happens. They always seem to be checking down Cardiff Bay, and anyone that doesn't have a ticket gets fined because you can buy one Queen Street. Any signs I have seen say "You must purchase a ticket at the first possible opportunity".
I live in the same sort of area as you Rob. They do spot checks at stations, if the station you get on at has a ticket booth or ticket machine they take down your details and caution you "you have the right to remain silent" etc.
If the station you got on at doesn't have a ticket machine, and you didn't get change to buy one on the train I am not sure what happens. They always seem to be checking down Cardiff Bay, and anyone that doesn't have a ticket gets fined because you can buy one Queen Street. Any signs I have seen say "You must purchase a ticket at the first possible opportunity".
In reply to JoshOvki:
Well the ticket machine at Llandaff is (I think - I'll check tonight) card only; there's DEFINITELY no sign at the station saying 'You must purchase a ticket at the first possible opportunity' - and Sam tried to pay at the first opportunity, i.e. the first time he saw a guard!
Well the ticket machine at Llandaff is (I think - I'll check tonight) card only; there's DEFINITELY no sign at the station saying 'You must purchase a ticket at the first possible opportunity' - and Sam tried to pay at the first opportunity, i.e. the first time he saw a guard!
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
I didn't know there was a ticket machine at Llandaff, just the man in the box for part of the day. Nice new shiney bridge opening though.
If the machine is card only then he has his defence right there. He wanted to pay in cash.
I didn't know there was a ticket machine at Llandaff, just the man in the box for part of the day. Nice new shiney bridge opening though.
If the machine is card only then he has his defence right there. He wanted to pay in cash.
Post edited at 10:35
In reply to MG:
It's the fare Rob mentioned, why do you think they don't exist. I like walking, but the train is almost certainly quicker. Especially if you are carrying a heavy bag back from University.
> With a discount, yes. Otherwise you would be quicker walking, if such a fare exists!
It's the fare Rob mentioned, why do you think they don't exist. I like walking, but the train is almost certainly quicker. Especially if you are carrying a heavy bag back from University.
In reply to The New NickB:
I know they exist for discount tickets but (probably) not adults, hence my innocuous query to Rob.
Are you making a new hobby of quibbling pedantically over all my posts?
> It's the fare Rob mentioned, why do you think they don't exist
I know they exist for discount tickets but (probably) not adults, hence my innocuous query to Rob.
Are you making a new hobby of quibbling pedantically over all my posts?
In reply to MG:
On my local line (Exeter) I used to catch the train into town when it was raining, the train taking 5 minutes and it being about a 30 minute walk. With a railcard it was 85p for a return. When fares went up last year it became 95p.
On my local line (Exeter) I used to catch the train into town when it was raining, the train taking 5 minutes and it being about a 30 minute walk. With a railcard it was 85p for a return. When fares went up last year it became 95p.
In reply to JoshOvki:
Ah but that's where the caution comes in: because Sam didn't say that at the time, presumably he can't used it as a defence now.
Ah but that's where the caution comes in: because Sam didn't say that at the time, presumably he can't used it as a defence now.
In reply to psaunders:
Make sure you get a ticket at the earliest opportunity otherwise it suddenly goes up to £71.
Make sure you get a ticket at the earliest opportunity otherwise it suddenly goes up to £71.
In reply to MG:
Certainly not!
> I know they exist for discount tickets but (probably) not adults, hence my innocuous query to Rob.
> Are you making a new hobby of quibbling pedantically over all my posts?
Certainly not!
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31149024
Gives the possible reasons to appeal. Although ignorance of the law is not a defence.
Can I suggest you and your family don't try the German railways. There you must buy a ticket and validate it before boarding - failure to do the second will get you shot*.
*or something less bad.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31149024
Gives the possible reasons to appeal. Although ignorance of the law is not a defence.
Can I suggest you and your family don't try the German railways. There you must buy a ticket and validate it before boarding - failure to do the second will get you shot*.
*or something less bad.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Despite this seeming far to complicated for mere mortals to follow given some if the responses, you're legally obliged to get a ticket at the earliest chance. Everywhere. Has been for a long time.
Why do we have different experiences?
1/ the only way to be sure any excuse is invalid is to have a staffed ticket barrier (staffed in case of a technical fault, the barrier can just be a pemanently in place person) at every station
The cost of doing that means it will never happen.
2/ it's usually not going to be worth delaying the services and potentially endangering staff to have the guard try and get details from everyone who has got on without a ticket, and the alternative is to arrange British transport police to be waiting at the next station which is even worse.
Therefore generally a bit of give and take is allowed and assuming the traveller does not try to avoid paying when asked, or tries to deliberately avoid the people doing the asking, you're almost always OK.
Your son obviously got someone who was having a bad day or whatever and thought he'd follow the rules to the letter. This can occur quite believably due to the immense amount of shit they sometimes have to put up with from people who treat them like the enemy rather than just people doing their jobs sadly.
But that doesn't mean it's a con.
You can get caught speeding and be let off because the officer doesn't feel it's worth (or can't be arsed) taking it further, but you wouldn't say its a con when next time they charge you
Now the Hysteria is past about rail company conspiracies....
As my first post said, you can appeal. Put in some photos and an explanation, offer to pay the fare. Explain that there was no intent to avoid the fare, just an inadequately positioned ticket machine.
You'll very likely hear nothing back about it. The world keeps turning. You've really not gone through some horrible abuse by Mr fatcat who's got it in for you.
IF it goes further then you can get wound up and throw a hiss then
Despite this seeming far to complicated for mere mortals to follow given some if the responses, you're legally obliged to get a ticket at the earliest chance. Everywhere. Has been for a long time.
Why do we have different experiences?
1/ the only way to be sure any excuse is invalid is to have a staffed ticket barrier (staffed in case of a technical fault, the barrier can just be a pemanently in place person) at every station
The cost of doing that means it will never happen.
2/ it's usually not going to be worth delaying the services and potentially endangering staff to have the guard try and get details from everyone who has got on without a ticket, and the alternative is to arrange British transport police to be waiting at the next station which is even worse.
Therefore generally a bit of give and take is allowed and assuming the traveller does not try to avoid paying when asked, or tries to deliberately avoid the people doing the asking, you're almost always OK.
Your son obviously got someone who was having a bad day or whatever and thought he'd follow the rules to the letter. This can occur quite believably due to the immense amount of shit they sometimes have to put up with from people who treat them like the enemy rather than just people doing their jobs sadly.
But that doesn't mean it's a con.
You can get caught speeding and be let off because the officer doesn't feel it's worth (or can't be arsed) taking it further, but you wouldn't say its a con when next time they charge you
Now the Hysteria is past about rail company conspiracies....
As my first post said, you can appeal. Put in some photos and an explanation, offer to pay the fare. Explain that there was no intent to avoid the fare, just an inadequately positioned ticket machine.
You'll very likely hear nothing back about it. The world keeps turning. You've really not gone through some horrible abuse by Mr fatcat who's got it in for you.
IF it goes further then you can get wound up and throw a hiss then
1
In reply to roperat:
I remember that, Rob should definitely give it a listen.
> There was a story on this on Law in Action on R4 recently that maybe worth finding on the iPlayer. I seem to remember that the rail operators seemed to be trying it on.
I remember that, Rob should definitely give it a listen.
In reply to Scarab9:
The plot thickens, in fact. Not only is there no sign saying that you have to have a ticket *before* travelling, the *only* signage says 'You Must buy a ticket if the office is open [it wasn't] otherwise you must buy a ticket on the train' which Sam was expecting to do, but the train reached his stop before the conductor came round. What was he supposed to do? Stay on to the next stop, then travel back again? Prevent the train leaving to allow the conductor time to take his fare, delaying all other passengers?
The plot thickens, in fact. Not only is there no sign saying that you have to have a ticket *before* travelling, the *only* signage says 'You Must buy a ticket if the office is open [it wasn't] otherwise you must buy a ticket on the train' which Sam was expecting to do, but the train reached his stop before the conductor came round. What was he supposed to do? Stay on to the next stop, then travel back again? Prevent the train leaving to allow the conductor time to take his fare, delaying all other passengers?
Post edited at 19:09
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