UKC

First off this is a genuine question and not just a discussion-starter, it's also a purely selfish interest, I'm going to Kalymnos in September and am interested to see what people think the situation will be by then.

I know Kalymonos generates some income from climbing tourism and rock faces will still be there regardless of the financial climate, but after a brief delve into the subject, it seems that nobody in Greece can import anything as they can't pay money out to foreign suppliers, so even a climbing holiday will be pretty hard going if none of the restaurants have any food - or even worse - they run out of Mythos.
If all the gorceries are or can be sourced within Greece then I guess that could be less of a problem but I assume it's the same as most of the rest of the world and items come from far and wide.
Also, there is no way that climbing around a few small towns on the West coast constitutes the life blood of the island's economy, so do you think the financial situation will affect the island as much as it will the mainland and climbing tourism will be another victim of that breakdown?

The holiday is fully insured so i'm not worried about losing out financially, but I just really want to go and climb there again so I really (selfishly) hope things don't get too disastrous.

In reply to Dandan: I would say that the situation is so fast moving that it would be difficult to predict what will happen next week, let alone September.

In reply to Dandan:

Don't panic too much, Mythos is brewed in Greece

In reply to Dandan:

Life's to short to worry about Greece. They've got nice food, great beaches and sunny weather they'll be fine.

In reply to Dandan:


If it was me, I wouldn't worry in the least bit about my trip. I would carry only cash with me, though. (I'd expect the whole country to be equally affected).

I was just wondering the same thing. I'm also going there in September/October. I think carrying enough cash is important if things stay the same as there are daily limits on cash withdrawals.

In reply to Dandan:

Take Euros as cash.
I wouldn't worry about food shortages. If one particular thing cant be imported, the restaurants and shops are sure to supplement it with something else.
I would suspect the locals will greet you with even more enthusiasm than usual (and they are usually very friendly) as you are a source of euro cash which is likely to become a very sought-after commodity.

Whatever happens over the coming weeks/months, the populace are going to be trying to stockpile cash rather than use a bank as normal. This is the predictable result of shutting banks and barring people from accessing their savings.

Only precaution I would take would be to be sure not to flash money around too much because, if the people there are in dire financial straits, some could be desperate enough to do something silly that they wouldn't do under normal circumstances.

In reply to Dandan:

It's looking pretty bleak for the Greek population and somewhat worrying for the future of the whole European project in the longer term but I'm sure your holiday will be fine.

jk

In reply to Dandan:

Take rubles

In reply to Dandan:

One thing I've not worked out is why the locals are complaining about being skint. If I didn't pay my taxes I'd be loads better off, not poorer.

In reply to Chris Harris:

Your understanding of what's happening in Greece is a bit lacking isn't it?

In reply to JayPee630:



Your understanding of the possibility that something posted on the internet may not be a true reflection of the poster's beliefs and understanding of the situation is a bit lacking isn't it?

In reply to henwardian:



Definitely this ^^^

To OP - In fact, I'd almost go so far as to say that, as a tourist, you will absolutely be expected to have bought enough Euros with you to last a holiday, including emergencies and possible delays getting home, so guard it well (how safe is a hotel safe from the staff?) and look after yourself. Pay with a credit card wherever you can - Halifax Clarity is the one to take.

In reply to Chris Harris:

Well, then maybe only write things that are and that wouldn't happen would it?

In reply to JayPee630:


That would make the world a very dull place. You'd probably be able to get the entire internet on a usb stick if we went down that route.

In reply to LastBoyScout:


In Greece, the land of cash payments?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I did say "wherever you can"

In reply to Dandan:

You'll be OK just take American dollars yah?

In reply to Dandan:

Forget paying with cards, what Greek is going to take a card payment if they won't ever able to take their money from the bank.

Take euros, lots of. I'd suggest it is a risky venture, if or when it collapses, civil order could happen, depending who they wish to blame for their demise, themselves for paying little in tax, taking good salaries, early pensions... Or the ECB for not lending them more money they won't pay back, again.

In reply to summo:

On the moral maze on radio 4 the other day there was a "witness" who was Greek and a lecturer at a college in the UK who did not seem to accept that the Greeks have a moral responsibility to pay back debts due to their previous (albeit foolish or ill-considered) borrowings. I was amazed that he could not see that it is reasonable to be expected to pay such monies back,at least in some degree.

I am ignorant about the Greek situation in terms of reality. I know that there is the rumour that they do not work very long hours and that could appear to be true from what I have seen when holidaying in various parts of Greece, but is it true or a falsehood?
Likewise do they all retire early, at 55 or so? If so then they need to change their attitude and work their way out of debt.
I can certainly believe that they do not pay their taxes in full, as shown by the refusal of the scooter hire-man to accept any other payment than cash when I was on Kalymnos. So they surely have themselves to blame over many years on this count. Yet I just do not know if all the rumours are true in full or a bit subjective.

Where is the evidence for their lack-lustre performance?

In reply to veteye:


Here are some Grauniad articles about....

Pensions:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/15/unsustainable-futures-greec...
And tax evasion:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/24/greece-collecting-revenue-tax-...

In reply to Dandan:

I think you understate the importance of climbing to Kalymnos' economy- it makes a huge boost, and unlike conventional beach holidays, it has a much longer season. Add this to the fact that climbers typically stay in locally-owned accommodation an d eat i n local restaurants rather than all-inclusive hotel chains, climbing is vital to Kalymnos.

In reply to JayPee630 and Chris Harris:

And at the end of that round the scores are:

JayPee630 - One
but
Chris Harris - a whopping nineteen

JP, you are an idiot. Goodbye.

In reply to JJL:

Permission to "Like" the above post?

In reply to summo:



We can only hope so.

In reply to Dandan:

We'll go whole family and all In September. We do want to support the local economy (even if imported from liverpool), and do not fear that there will be shortages so much ...

Lets see - we survived other holidays as well.

In reply to Hat Dude:


I thought he meant La Sportiva Mythos - what's going to happen when they run out?

In reply to veteye:

What evidence, their current situation?

Full Retirement I think is or was 57 for all. Many public sectors workers would also get 13mths pay a year, they would get an extra months wages as a holiday bonus...

The miracle is really that the economy didn't collapse a decade ago.

But, the ECB etc. Really should admit it failed when it allowed them into the euro as they didn't meet any of the criteria.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33382046

Is the Greek retirement age generous?

Average age of retirement for men in 2012

United States: 65

United Kingdom: 63.7

Germany: 62.1

Greece: 61.9

France: 59.7

Belgium: 59.6


How bad are things for Greece's pension fund?

The amount of money held in pension funds has dropped hugely - down €25bn in the last five years, according to Greece's prime minister
But more than a fifth of Greece's population are pensioners - a figure that's rising. Only two countries in Europe have a higher percentage
Youth unemployment is 49.7% - so pension funds are not receiving enough new contributions from the working population
In 2012, the last year for when statistics are available, Greece spent 17.5% of its GDP on pensions - compared to 7.3% in Ireland, for example

In reply to Dandan:

I have been twice with a 7 year gap between visits and when we were there last year found out some interesting stuff about the Kalymnos economy. Over that period the population of locals has halved and they have moved to Darwin - when we were there in August a lot of the English spoken was with an Australian accent. A lot of the younger men spend the whole winter in Darwin (construction industry) and return for the summer. If the income situation becomes worse I think more families will move out and with Kos being a popular migrant destination I believe they will be replaced pretty quickly. Whether this will have any affect on the climbing who knows?

In reply to robandian:

Which suggests an ageing population with many pensioners, huge youth unemployment (paying no taxes) or of necessity moving abroad to work (paying no taxes in Greece). Quite apart from the problem of tax evasion.

In reply to summo:


Not really - it's just a different way of distributing your yearly salary so that you get an extra boost at Christmas when you need it. Your salary for the rest of the year is reduced accordingly. Also, it's not just public sector workers - it's common in the private sector - or at least it was. Not so much now.

In reply to Willi Crater:


getting an xmas bonus in the profit making private sector, is not the same as taking tax payers money and giving employees extra money just because it's xmas. Your comment hints at everything that is wrong in Greece, they appear to think it's acceptable to spend money you haven't got, and borrow money you can't repay.

In reply to Dandan:

So No means? No bananas?......

In reply to Dandan:

I'm off to Kefalonia in August and am looking forward to parting with cash to boost their economy and f*** the international banks.

In reply to summo:
Not really the full story though. Billions have been siphoned off from the multiple bailouts by the elite of Greece i.e. politicians and bankers. We just get told that the Greeks are all lazy, fraudulent and don't pay their taxes. It was always going to fold, presumably the germans have had plenty of time to protect themselves and the euro from contagion. Not sure the European central bank expected a referendum on state debt though. Exciting time ahead.

D

In reply to Dauphin:

Never said otherwise, Greeks with the funds have long since fled the country. But, what's the solution?

Exciting, from a far off perspective perhaps yes. Or a slow demise of the euro, eu... With global repercussions?

In reply to summo:


It's not a bonus. It's written into your contract and guaranteed. It's in no way performance related. It's simply a different way of distributing income through the year. When I worked for such a company I was employed on a rate of 28k a year. That was the basis on which I accepted the employment. It just so happened that instead of receiving 12 monthly gross payments of 2333 I received 13 payments of 2150 (give or take). I know it might seem an odd way of doing things, but it *was not* an unearned bonus. The company did run a performance related bonus scheme, but I was never eligible (wasn't prepared to work the 50+ hours a week to qualify). Not hinting at anything, not defending anything - merely stating facts (bit of a dirty word, I know)

In reply to Willi Crater:
My mistake, I now grasp that Greece is clearly a well run nation economically, following sound prudent systems and that Greeks happily contribute tax revenue to the state. A simple mistake I apologise.

In reply to summo:


He's not arguing that though is he? Merely pointing out, politely, that one of your arguments was factually flawed. If there is a need for sarcasm on this particular point you are probably a more worthy target given your 'but this one goes up to 11' argument.

In reply to jwa:

I would be concerned for two reasons

1) carrying a lot of money around on my person, risk of mugging.

2) Putting money in a hotel safe, and NOT having it on my person (risk of burglary)

In reply to Jim C:

Sensible precautions for any traveller.
But in the light of how much they are reliant on tourists the islands will surely see that crime directed at them is unelpful, to say the least, and police and enforce accordingly.
Then again, as a friend of mine pointed out, you dont have to go back that far in Greek history to find Cabinet ministers being shot, and that in what they keep telling us is the cradle of democracy !

Interesting development

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greeks-apologise-with-huge...

In reply to summo:


Instead of indulging in sarcasm, you could have simply admitted that you were wrong on this point. An unusual occurrence for internet forum based arguments, I know, but not unheard of.

In reply to veteye:


Greece could not pay it's debts prior to 2008. Since then, the austerity program mandated by the EU has reduced their economy by 25%, whilst their debts have got bigger. They simply can NEVER pay off their debt. 92% of the bailout funds they have received since 2008 have gone straight back to paying off their creditors.

What the EU is proposing is a form of indenture if not slavery on the people of Greece and the loss of their democracy. Thanks god they voted no. (Remember that if you owe the bank £10,000 it is your problem. If you owe the bank £10,000,000 then it is the bank's problem.)

Greece needs about 50bn over the next three years to survive. The UK taxpayer bought £45bn of shares in RBS alone. Talking of banks, Goldman Sachs audited Greece to allow it to join the Euro. Anybody need MORE evidence that the banking sector is corrupt, incompetent and not fit for purpose?

In reply to jwa:

The daily limits don't apply to people withdrawing cash from non-Greek bank accounts

In reply to planetmarshall:


Having had it explained to me by a greek many years ago, they said it was an extra months pay. That many public sector employees got an extra months people to enjoy their holiday. There was no mention of being contracted to get 12mths pay, divided into 13 parts then paid over 12months still. So I will stand by my initial point.

In reply to summo:

It's a different distribution. We get 14 wages per year by law in Austria, everyone employed, be it private or public, but pay is lower than in Germany ... per year salaries are approx. the same.

In reply to summo:


well looks like you've had an update

In reply to summo:

What does it matter how it's distributed or time? Who cares if someone gets paid 13 times or 52 times? Annual salary is all that counts. Are those who are paid weekly paid 12 times a year but receive 40 bonus payments?

In reply to Shani:


And if you owe the bank £10 billion, refuse to pay it back, but then want to borrow some more money from someone, it becomes your problem again

In reply to Dandan:
Perhaps as a back up plan you could do what my parents and other people had to do before Britain IIRC joined the ERM, which was to take a holidays worth of food with them (since only a certain amount of money per person was allowed to leave the country)?

It's why my folks used to go on camping holidays, since they were cheap to have if they took the food as well.

In reply to 3 Names:


That could be true. Perhaps if the Greeks had had an administrative update in the past 50 years, this problem would not exist.

It won't matter if it's 12,13,14 months pay soon.. if they don't accept that you can't run a country with massive public services, high pensions etc.. on very little tax take then they are headed for the 3rd world and it's their doing. Head in sand, denial, blissful ignorance call it what you will.

In reply to nickh1964:

You would like to think that most Greeks (not everyone of course is Greek) will see tourists as a benefit for the long term , but IF the banks close for an extended period, and people living there get desperate, I don't think it will be toolong beofore some ,on the fringes, (it only takes a few) target easy cash from tourists beyond the usual pickpocketing.

In reply to Dandan:
Maybe take drachmas if they go down the road of parallel currencies?

You will need a very large rucksack though

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

No, not at all. Banks are obliged to lend responsibly. Greece have not refused to pay back their debt, they have merely pointed out that they CANNOT pay back their debt. There is an important distinction.

Now as a country's Central Bank is a lender of last resort, there is some obligation on the ECB to assist Greece - not least because the ECB has already performed this role under Mario Draghi when he proposed to do "whatever it takes" to save the euro.

So as you can see, it is still the bank's problem. You are confusing sovereign indebtedness with personal/household indebtedness.

In reply to Shani:




But in this case it is a reasonable confusion to have. The ECB is Greece's central bank. It is Europe's central bank and therefore has to make decisions in that context. Greece's central bank (The Bank of Greece)does not have the ability to do anything to assist Greece. This is a nub of the problem.
There are also legal and logistical problems in that if Greece is in default (to the IMF) and/or its banks are insolvent the ECB is not allowed to lend further funds.

In reply to Dandan:

Don't worry ,everything will be OK,Praying for them .

In reply to Postmanpat:



Germany are looking for a face-saving way out of this problem. Greece wants to pay back its debt, and its creditors want to be repaid.

Morally and financially, debt relief is the answer as staying in the Euro offers Greece superior monetary stability than a return to the Drachma, improving their chances of repayment and also relieving the human cost of what is unfolding in Greece.

But, that then raises the prospect of debt relief for the other PIIGS....

In reply to Shani:

Exactly, debt relief a) otentially leads to a domino effect b) opens ghetto door to a permanent transfer Union.
The Germans can't acceg either but maybe it's whst Zmr.V wanted?

In reply to Shani:


But as you said 15:42 Mon, they can't pay it back. On this thread you seem to be showing the sort of insight that should enabled you to see what I was getting at on the other thread.

In reply to Mike Stretford:


Apologies - nuance is lost in the written word and I am writing this in between my day job! (This would be much easier in the pub over a pint.) I will reread your posts on the other thread.

Cheers, C

In reply to Shani:


Yup I agree, and I too need to get on with day job!

Cheers

In reply to Shani:
I think you will find they have refused to repay. They want 30% written off and 20 years grace are the current demands... 20 years with no interest on the lump sum is effectively anything between 20-60% write off of the remaining sum, due to value lost to inflation. So in effect they are refusing to pay back roughly 50% of the money THEY currently chose to borrow.

In reply to summo:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/27/greece-spain-helped-ge...

Maybe a long time ago but still..

In reply to Bulls Crack:

That's fine, but at what point is a nation expected to help themselves? They can't blame others and everyone else for their predicament forever.

Their economic and tax policies etc.. have been so different to everyone else's... Ie expensive.. yet they did nothing.

They borrowed like mad for the Olympics too.

It will be painful either way for Greece, but its better in the long run to take the route than will improve things overall. Throwing money at them won't help. Let them crash then give aid direct to those in need, not cash to Greek politicians.