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This thread http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=619337 about a recent accident has generated a lot of discussion about the importance of clear communication. Whilst there seems to be widespread agreement that the term "safe" has only limited application in sport climbing, if at all, it seems less clear what calls should be used.
Trad climbing of course has a well-established pattern of calls which apply both to single- and multi-pitch, So far as I am aware there is no agreed system of calls for sport. I admit I am not a regular climber of bolted routes, but from my observations both outdoors and indoors people seem to use a variety of calls, or none. IF there is a standard system of calls they don't appear to be very widely known or used. "How to" articles in magazines explain how to arrange lower-offs but I don't recall seeing anything about calls.
Moreover, the routine for trad climbing is much the same whether it is single- or multi-pitch. Sport on the other hand has several different possible scenarios at the top of a pitch. I can think of at least four, each of which require different actions by both climber and belayer:
1) clip (to fixed krab or climber's own quickdraws) and lower off
2) make safe and rethread the rope through the fixed anchor
3) set up an abseil
4) on multi-pitch, bring up the second to continue climbing
Behaviour at the top of the route also seems to vary, with some climbers being willing to clip and immediately jump off while others (including me) want to know they are being firmly held on a tight rope before commencing lowering.
Apart from the multi-pitch scenario, the established trad calls don't seem to fit the bill. So, should there be an accepted standard for sport climbing calls, and if so what should they be?
Trad climbing of course has a well-established pattern of calls which apply both to single- and multi-pitch, So far as I am aware there is no agreed system of calls for sport. I admit I am not a regular climber of bolted routes, but from my observations both outdoors and indoors people seem to use a variety of calls, or none. IF there is a standard system of calls they don't appear to be very widely known or used. "How to" articles in magazines explain how to arrange lower-offs but I don't recall seeing anything about calls.
Moreover, the routine for trad climbing is much the same whether it is single- or multi-pitch. Sport on the other hand has several different possible scenarios at the top of a pitch. I can think of at least four, each of which require different actions by both climber and belayer:
1) clip (to fixed krab or climber's own quickdraws) and lower off
2) make safe and rethread the rope through the fixed anchor
3) set up an abseil
4) on multi-pitch, bring up the second to continue climbing
Behaviour at the top of the route also seems to vary, with some climbers being willing to clip and immediately jump off while others (including me) want to know they are being firmly held on a tight rope before commencing lowering.
Apart from the multi-pitch scenario, the established trad calls don't seem to fit the bill. So, should there be an accepted standard for sport climbing calls, and if so what should they be?
1
In reply to Howard J:
Just climb with a good belayer who knows what you're doing when you're doing it, and isn't afraid to halt proceedings until he's ready for you.
Just climb with a good belayer who knows what you're doing when you're doing it, and isn't afraid to halt proceedings until he's ready for you.
1
1
In reply to zimpara:
But how should he know? Telepathy? A discussion before the climber sets off is a good start, but should there be a clear system of calls so that they both know exactly what the other is doing at each step? This seems uncontroversial with trad, but despite several accidents arising from communication failures there doesn't seem to be an agreed system for sport. The results of a misunderstanding can be disastrous.
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/sport-climbing-in-the-sun
But how should he know? Telepathy? A discussion before the climber sets off is a good start, but should there be a clear system of calls so that they both know exactly what the other is doing at each step? This seems uncontroversial with trad, but despite several accidents arising from communication failures there doesn't seem to be an agreed system for sport. The results of a misunderstanding can be disastrous.
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/sport-climbing-in-the-sun
2
In reply to Howard J:
I climb both trad and sport. I am very careful about belayers. I always ensure that they know what I am doing and I always check that they have understood. Even (especially!) indoors. I make the decision before climbing sport whether I am going to clip and lower, rethread, or ab. Occasionally the 'chains' are not the type I expected, and then I will ensure that the belayer has understood the procedure change. I keep calls to a minimum at the top of routes, although I do talk and mutter a lot (and whine and cry!) whilst climbing, but during this time the belayer cannot (hopefully!) get it wrong, as they are there on catching duty. Confusion seems to arise with others at the start and end of a pitch. I, therefore, think that someone should 'create' a set of sport climbing calls that are simple and difficult to misunderstand (like the calls usually used in trad!). If these are then taught and used (and monitored) indoors, the newer climbers will start to use them and their use will eventually spread around. I frequently have to teach trad calls to 'indoor' climbers when I go outside with them, and they often complain that they are not necessary, as 'it is only a short pitch and I can see what you are doing'. If they don't want to use the simple calls they can climb with someone else. They have the same 'all is safe' attitude with sport, hence the type of incident highlighted in the other thread.
Sorry for the rant! But needed to get this off my chest as I have seen many accidents and near accidents (recently) because of communication misunderstandings.
I climb both trad and sport. I am very careful about belayers. I always ensure that they know what I am doing and I always check that they have understood. Even (especially!) indoors. I make the decision before climbing sport whether I am going to clip and lower, rethread, or ab. Occasionally the 'chains' are not the type I expected, and then I will ensure that the belayer has understood the procedure change. I keep calls to a minimum at the top of routes, although I do talk and mutter a lot (and whine and cry!) whilst climbing, but during this time the belayer cannot (hopefully!) get it wrong, as they are there on catching duty. Confusion seems to arise with others at the start and end of a pitch. I, therefore, think that someone should 'create' a set of sport climbing calls that are simple and difficult to misunderstand (like the calls usually used in trad!). If these are then taught and used (and monitored) indoors, the newer climbers will start to use them and their use will eventually spread around. I frequently have to teach trad calls to 'indoor' climbers when I go outside with them, and they often complain that they are not necessary, as 'it is only a short pitch and I can see what you are doing'. If they don't want to use the simple calls they can climb with someone else. They have the same 'all is safe' attitude with sport, hence the type of incident highlighted in the other thread.
Sorry for the rant! But needed to get this off my chest as I have seen many accidents and near accidents (recently) because of communication misunderstandings.
2
1
13
In reply to Howard J:
No. You and your partner should know what calls you're using and what they mean, they don't need to be standard (and indeed an argument could be made it's better that they aren't so you don't think your partner is calling clip when the call came from the climber on a diff route).
This is making a mountain out of a mole hill.
> So, should there be an accepted standard for sport climbing calls, and if so what should they be?
No. You and your partner should know what calls you're using and what they mean, they don't need to be standard (and indeed an argument could be made it's better that they aren't so you don't think your partner is calling clip when the call came from the climber on a diff route).
This is making a mountain out of a mole hill.
9
In reply to Howard J:
I can't see a need for anything other than "take" and "slack". In any case most of the time on the majority of sports climbs it's actually possible to hold a conversation with the belayer so there is no good reason why communication should be an issue. The biggest danger is mistaking a call from nearby climbers and I have seen an accident which was a direct result of this.
Al
I can't see a need for anything other than "take" and "slack". In any case most of the time on the majority of sports climbs it's actually possible to hold a conversation with the belayer so there is no good reason why communication should be an issue. The biggest danger is mistaking a call from nearby climbers and I have seen an accident which was a direct result of this.
Al
4
In reply to Howard J:
What's wrong with Trad calls? Seems to me that (for people that climb both Trad and Sport) having 2 separate groups of calls makes miscommunication more likely, not less.
Although there were communication issues too, the main mistake in the thread quoted in the OP was letting go of the brake rope when paying out slack - poor basic technique.
What's wrong with Trad calls? Seems to me that (for people that climb both Trad and Sport) having 2 separate groups of calls makes miscommunication more likely, not less.
Although there were communication issues too, the main mistake in the thread quoted in the OP was letting go of the brake rope when paying out slack - poor basic technique.
3
In reply to GridNorth:
Absolutely. Occasionally if a route ends at a dodgy lower-off and you intend to abseil, "Safe" and "Off belay" are needed, but those are rare occasions, and even on 40m routes, I've been able to talk/shout to my belayer and have a discussion about the shoddy lower-off, in which case they shouldn't be misunderstood.
When I'm climbing in a busy area, I always combine important calls with my belayer's name - e.g. "Safe, John" - that helps avoid any confusion.
> I can't see a need for anything other than "take" and "slack".
Absolutely. Occasionally if a route ends at a dodgy lower-off and you intend to abseil, "Safe" and "Off belay" are needed, but those are rare occasions, and even on 40m routes, I've been able to talk/shout to my belayer and have a discussion about the shoddy lower-off, in which case they shouldn't be misunderstood.
When I'm climbing in a busy area, I always combine important calls with my belayer's name - e.g. "Safe, John" - that helps avoid any confusion.
1
In reply to Howard J:
It's true that communication is usually easier than with trad - the distances you have to shout are shorter for a start. However numerous incidents show that despite this accidents happen.
Maybe "take" and "slack" are all that's needed, in which case why have a conversation which even over a relatively short distance runs the risk of being misunderstood?
The purpose of the trad calls is to keep communication simple and to avoid unnecessary shouts which might give rise to confusion. Why not the same for sport?
It's true that communication is usually easier than with trad - the distances you have to shout are shorter for a start. However numerous incidents show that despite this accidents happen.
Maybe "take" and "slack" are all that's needed, in which case why have a conversation which even over a relatively short distance runs the risk of being misunderstood?
The purpose of the trad calls is to keep communication simple and to avoid unnecessary shouts which might give rise to confusion. Why not the same for sport?
2
In reply to Howard J:
At the end of the day, you should always be on belay no matter if You're climbing, threading etc
Anything else is poor skills in my eyes. ATC wants to be locked whatever I'm doing. (Except when pulling slack for the pedantic)
I still maintain focus is more important than an "accepted standard for sports calls."
I've been lucky enough to have fantastic belayers. And videos filming me climbing, capturing the belayer diving around managing ropes, stances, stepping in to pay slack and keeping atc locked etc only builds my confidence in their ability to look after me.
Belay as you would want to be.
At the end of the day, you should always be on belay no matter if You're climbing, threading etc
Anything else is poor skills in my eyes. ATC wants to be locked whatever I'm doing. (Except when pulling slack for the pedantic)
I still maintain focus is more important than an "accepted standard for sports calls."
I've been lucky enough to have fantastic belayers. And videos filming me climbing, capturing the belayer diving around managing ropes, stances, stepping in to pay slack and keeping atc locked etc only builds my confidence in their ability to look after me.
Belay as you would want to be.
3
In reply to zimpara:
But not in scenario 3 in my OP where the climber is going to ab off.
Safety shouldn't depend on being "lucky to find fantastic belayers", but on having safe systems.
As I said, I don't regularly climb on bolts and I've realised I don't have much of a system myself and usually rely on trying to talk to my belayer, although I do usually give a "thumbs up" when ready to be lowered as well as calling something down. So far I seem to have managed without mishap. However it only needs to go wrong once.
> At the end of the day, you should always be on belay no matter if You're climbing, threading etc
But not in scenario 3 in my OP where the climber is going to ab off.
Safety shouldn't depend on being "lucky to find fantastic belayers", but on having safe systems.
As I said, I don't regularly climb on bolts and I've realised I don't have much of a system myself and usually rely on trying to talk to my belayer, although I do usually give a "thumbs up" when ready to be lowered as well as calling something down. So far I seem to have managed without mishap. However it only needs to go wrong once.
2
In reply to GridNorth:
I like to add "down", better than spending the rest of my life hanging on a rope
> I can't see a need for anything other than "take" and "slack".
I like to add "down", better than spending the rest of my life hanging on a rope
1
In reply to Howard J:
I find distance is rarely a problem, as long as you have line of sight. Most of the sport I have done is straight up (and rarely that long in this country) and even if you can't quite hear usually furious gesticulating gets the message across. In fact if I have line of sight with some of my belayers we understand each other just from a thumbs up or similar (with appropriate caution and usually checking).
On trad I seem to go about 5m and disappear, never to see my belayer again until they are about 10m from the top usually!
(read 'single-pitch sport' for 'sport' below)
As for sport climbing calls, 'take' and 'slack' (I avoid 'take' for trad in general but OK for sport). There is no need to have a single word to indicate 'take off belay' since it is so uncommon. Taking someone off belay in sport should be so unusual that it should require effort in communication to achieve.
'Safe!'
'Cool.' (belayer does nothing...)
'Safe!'
'What?'
'I'm safe, take me off belay.'
'Why, are you abseiling?'
'Yes'
'OK, will take you off belay...'
and thus safety badger.
> It's true that communication is usually easier than with trad - the distances you have to shout are shorter for a start. However numerous incidents show that despite this accidents happen.
I find distance is rarely a problem, as long as you have line of sight. Most of the sport I have done is straight up (and rarely that long in this country) and even if you can't quite hear usually furious gesticulating gets the message across. In fact if I have line of sight with some of my belayers we understand each other just from a thumbs up or similar (with appropriate caution and usually checking).
On trad I seem to go about 5m and disappear, never to see my belayer again until they are about 10m from the top usually!
(read 'single-pitch sport' for 'sport' below)
As for sport climbing calls, 'take' and 'slack' (I avoid 'take' for trad in general but OK for sport). There is no need to have a single word to indicate 'take off belay' since it is so uncommon. Taking someone off belay in sport should be so unusual that it should require effort in communication to achieve.
'Safe!'
'Cool.' (belayer does nothing...)
'Safe!'
'What?'
'I'm safe, take me off belay.'
'Why, are you abseiling?'
'Yes'
'OK, will take you off belay...'
and thus safety badger.
3
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:
Trad calls are intended for an entirely different scenario where one climber is to be taken off belay and the other put on, in situations where one or both of them could fall unless either on belay or secured to the crag, and where they may be a full rope-length apart and out of sight. The issue with sport climbing is how to handle the transition from climbing to lowering off, albeit over a shorter distance and usually in visual contact.
It is becoming apparent that most people so far seem to think that a system is not necessary on a relatively short sport climb, and that it should be possible for climbers to communicate by simply having a conversation. That certainly seems to be true the majority of the time, but I wonder whether this is a bit complacent? There is also the perception that sport climbing is safe which can also breed complacency. However there have been enough incidents where a failure to communicate effectively, either before climbing or at the lower-off, have resulted in injury or death. As I said in my previous post, it only has to go wrong once.
> What's wrong with Trad calls? Seems to me that (for people that climb both Trad and Sport) having 2 separate groups of calls makes miscommunication more likely, not less.
Trad calls are intended for an entirely different scenario where one climber is to be taken off belay and the other put on, in situations where one or both of them could fall unless either on belay or secured to the crag, and where they may be a full rope-length apart and out of sight. The issue with sport climbing is how to handle the transition from climbing to lowering off, albeit over a shorter distance and usually in visual contact.
It is becoming apparent that most people so far seem to think that a system is not necessary on a relatively short sport climb, and that it should be possible for climbers to communicate by simply having a conversation. That certainly seems to be true the majority of the time, but I wonder whether this is a bit complacent? There is also the perception that sport climbing is safe which can also breed complacency. However there have been enough incidents where a failure to communicate effectively, either before climbing or at the lower-off, have resulted in injury or death. As I said in my previous post, it only has to go wrong once.
In reply to jimtitt:
There is a point though where "slack" becomes down, especially when repeated . I agree with others that it's making a mountain out of a mole hill. I can't recall many many sports climbing situations where communication has been a major issue. My partner and I tend to use a thumbs up signal when we are ready to be lowered.
Al
There is a point though where "slack" becomes down, especially when repeated . I agree with others that it's making a mountain out of a mole hill. I can't recall many many sports climbing situations where communication has been a major issue. My partner and I tend to use a thumbs up signal when we are ready to be lowered.
Al
In reply to Dave Garnett:
"Watch me" always amused me, as they should be watching me all the time anyway! I do use it though, it's a less panicky version of "aaarghhh...I'm going to fall off....I'm scared!"
"Watch me" always amused me, as they should be watching me all the time anyway! I do use it though, it's a less panicky version of "aaarghhh...I'm going to fall off....I'm scared!"
2
In reply to GridNorth:
I seem to have got into that habit indoor...shout take, wait for rope to go tight, sit on rope, give thumbs up, get lowered.
I never sit back onto a slack rope (unless I've fallen off), if it doesn't go tight "take" gets shouted again before I weight it.
Neil
I seem to have got into that habit indoor...shout take, wait for rope to go tight, sit on rope, give thumbs up, get lowered.
I never sit back onto a slack rope (unless I've fallen off), if it doesn't go tight "take" gets shouted again before I weight it.
Neil
1
In reply to Howard J:
In trad poor communication is as likely to lead to a stand off as an accident with a leader furiously trying to take in rope while the belayer steadfastly keeps it taught.
Al
In trad poor communication is as likely to lead to a stand off as an accident with a leader furiously trying to take in rope while the belayer steadfastly keeps it taught.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
Me too, it ensures that I´ve looked down and they have looked up.
> There is a point though where "slack" becomes down, especially when repeated . I agree with others that it's making a mountain out of a mole hill. I can't recall many many sports climbing situations where communication has been a major issue. My partner and I tend to use a thumbs up signal when we are ready to be lowered.
> Al
Me too, it ensures that I´ve looked down and they have looked up.
In reply to Howard J:
I think this glossary of sport calls just about covers every eventuality....
1. "Take"
2. "Slack"
3. "Look! There's a perfectly good nut placement."
4. "This route should never have been bolted."
5. "I don't know how you talked me in to doing this sport p!sh."
6. "Why didn't we just go to Stanage?"
7. "Lower me off this sh!te right now."
I think this glossary of sport calls just about covers every eventuality....
1. "Take"
2. "Slack"
3. "Look! There's a perfectly good nut placement."
4. "This route should never have been bolted."
5. "I don't know how you talked me in to doing this sport p!sh."
6. "Why didn't we just go to Stanage?"
7. "Lower me off this sh!te right now."
Post edited at 12:59
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2
In reply to Howard J:
This is interesting. There seems to be an overwhelming view that standard calls are not needed for sport, however it also seems that many people have developed a system which they follow, including giving visual signals such as a thumbs-up as well as calls. So individual climbers, or teams of climbers, do in fact appear have evolved their own routines, and these probably work very well when they are climbing together. However there is a lack of consistency amongst climbers generally and no standardised approach to this.
This leaves scope for misunderstanding if they climb with different partners who may have their own systems, or who may interpret terms slightly differently. "OK" for example seems to be widely used, but is actually meaningless unless you and your partner have agreed beforehand what it signifies. I still think it would be beneficial if when novice climbers are being taught how to deal with different types of lower-off they were also taught how to communicate with their belayer and what to say, and equally importantly, what not to say. A standard approach would reduce the possibility of misunderstanding and confusion when they come to climb with different people.
This is interesting. There seems to be an overwhelming view that standard calls are not needed for sport, however it also seems that many people have developed a system which they follow, including giving visual signals such as a thumbs-up as well as calls. So individual climbers, or teams of climbers, do in fact appear have evolved their own routines, and these probably work very well when they are climbing together. However there is a lack of consistency amongst climbers generally and no standardised approach to this.
This leaves scope for misunderstanding if they climb with different partners who may have their own systems, or who may interpret terms slightly differently. "OK" for example seems to be widely used, but is actually meaningless unless you and your partner have agreed beforehand what it signifies. I still think it would be beneficial if when novice climbers are being taught how to deal with different types of lower-off they were also taught how to communicate with their belayer and what to say, and equally importantly, what not to say. A standard approach would reduce the possibility of misunderstanding and confusion when they come to climb with different people.
1
In reply to Howard J:
Useful thread. Mine are, for sport climbing
"slack"
"take in" (when there is too much slack but I don't want the belayer to take my weight)
"take" (locked off so I can sit on the rope)
"in" (when I have clipped in to the lower off - a bit superfluous but it keeps my belayer informed)
"lower away" (and I wait until I feel the belayer taking the rope tight before unclipping from the lower off. I like my belayer to say "got you" as a double check: it's something I always say. I usually look down to check as well but don't always remember)
A good belayer familiar with my climbing style will usually know how much slack to give me and when so slack/take in on the way up are usually not necessary.
Useful thread. Mine are, for sport climbing
"slack"
"take in" (when there is too much slack but I don't want the belayer to take my weight)
"take" (locked off so I can sit on the rope)
"in" (when I have clipped in to the lower off - a bit superfluous but it keeps my belayer informed)
"lower away" (and I wait until I feel the belayer taking the rope tight before unclipping from the lower off. I like my belayer to say "got you" as a double check: it's something I always say. I usually look down to check as well but don't always remember)
A good belayer familiar with my climbing style will usually know how much slack to give me and when so slack/take in on the way up are usually not necessary.
Post edited at 18:47
In reply to JLS:
3a. "I've still got my ankle length hexes with me, will I need them?"
3b. "There's a big hole in my Ron Hill's"
3c. "My socks are rubbing in my EB's"
3d. "I'm pumped and not yet at the first bolt on this 6a"
Fixed
Andy F
> I think this glossary of sport calls just about covers every eventuality....
> 1. "Take"
> 2. "Slack"
> 3. "Look! There's a perfectly good nut placement."
3a. "I've still got my ankle length hexes with me, will I need them?"
3b. "There's a big hole in my Ron Hill's"
3c. "My socks are rubbing in my EB's"
3d. "I'm pumped and not yet at the first bolt on this 6a"
> 4. "This route should never have been bolted."
> 5. "I don't know how you talked me in to doing this sport p!sh."
> 6. "Why didn't we just go to Stanage?"
> 7. "Lower me off this sh!te right now it's far too hard for me. Back to bumbling on Severes."
Fixed
Andy F
9
In reply to Howard J:
Good job bringing this stuff up. For me:
1) fixed krab - I just say 'take' - its no less safe than taking a fall on any bolt on the route so you shouldn't have to say anything at all to be safe.
2) Threaded anchor - I clip in and say 'clipped in' but even if not heard I'm safe anyway. When I'm retied in I say 'Take' again, as above and make a visual check: I'm sure rope is being taken in and I'm on belay (but no one has ever taken me off in this situation).
3) I don't ever remember having to abseil off a sport route so I think this is very rare. Presumably this is when the anchor is a tree or just a sling with no krab or ring. My safety would be entirely in my own hands though once I'd clipped into anchor. All I'd need to yell is: Take me off.
4) Multi pitch: very rare in this country and most long sport routes are now done as one big pitch. When I have done multi pitch however I use the standard calls used in trad. Off belay, taking in, climb when ready etc.
Good job bringing this stuff up. For me:
1) fixed krab - I just say 'take' - its no less safe than taking a fall on any bolt on the route so you shouldn't have to say anything at all to be safe.
2) Threaded anchor - I clip in and say 'clipped in' but even if not heard I'm safe anyway. When I'm retied in I say 'Take' again, as above and make a visual check: I'm sure rope is being taken in and I'm on belay (but no one has ever taken me off in this situation).
3) I don't ever remember having to abseil off a sport route so I think this is very rare. Presumably this is when the anchor is a tree or just a sling with no krab or ring. My safety would be entirely in my own hands though once I'd clipped into anchor. All I'd need to yell is: Take me off.
4) Multi pitch: very rare in this country and most long sport routes are now done as one big pitch. When I have done multi pitch however I use the standard calls used in trad. Off belay, taking in, climb when ready etc.
In reply to Howard J:
Why on earth would we want to muddy the water with a different set of calls?
> Apart from the multi-pitch scenario, the established trad calls don't seem to fit the bill. So, should there be an accepted standard for sport climbing calls, and if so what should they be?
Why on earth would we want to muddy the water with a different set of calls?
In reply to timjones:
We need different calls because using either "Safe" or "On belay" tend to instigate taking someone off belay, which doesn't have a nice outcome. Trad climbers should never use these calls when Sport climbing, as this instinctive response has led to too many nasty accidents, and a lot of close shaves.
We need different calls because using either "Safe" or "On belay" tend to instigate taking someone off belay, which doesn't have a nice outcome. Trad climbers should never use these calls when Sport climbing, as this instinctive response has led to too many nasty accidents, and a lot of close shaves.
Post edited at 20:37
1
In reply to andrewmcleod:
>Taking someone off belay in sport should be so unusual that it should require effort in communication to achieve.
This is exactly what I was trying to communicate in the last thread. If someone is going to abseil at the top of a sport route, it's probably a good idea to discuss this plan with their partner first. It is just so incredibly rare. The belayer should assume it's very unlikely the person wants to be taken off unless they have been forewarned.
I'm glad someone else seems to agree.
>Taking someone off belay in sport should be so unusual that it should require effort in communication to achieve.
This is exactly what I was trying to communicate in the last thread. If someone is going to abseil at the top of a sport route, it's probably a good idea to discuss this plan with their partner first. It is just so incredibly rare. The belayer should assume it's very unlikely the person wants to be taken off unless they have been forewarned.
I'm glad someone else seems to agree.
1
In reply to Howard J:
No idea how many people do it but I stay on belay when I am threading an anchor to lower off and clean the pitch. Secure yourself with QD's to the anchor, call for enough slack to thread through and then fig 8 on a bight /w locker to harness or proper fig 8, untie old fig 8 then lower off. Safe as houses, I don't know why people are being taken off-belay at all on sport routes tbh
No idea how many people do it but I stay on belay when I am threading an anchor to lower off and clean the pitch. Secure yourself with QD's to the anchor, call for enough slack to thread through and then fig 8 on a bight /w locker to harness or proper fig 8, untie old fig 8 then lower off. Safe as houses, I don't know why people are being taken off-belay at all on sport routes tbh
2
In reply to jsmcfarland:
In some situations it is better to ab off a sports route, in which you'll probably want to be taken off belay at some point.
> No idea how many people do it but I stay on belay when I am threading an anchor to lower off and clean the pitch. Secure yourself with QD's to the anchor, call for enough slack to thread through and then fig 8 on a bight /w locker to harness or proper fig 8, untie old fig 8 then lower off. Safe as houses, I don't know why people are being taken off-belay at all on sport routes tbh
In some situations it is better to ab off a sports route, in which you'll probably want to be taken off belay at some point.
Post edited at 07:56
1
In reply to timjones:
Because sport requires a completely different procedure. Misunderstandings do arise. It is particularly risky for people who usually climb trad and have an ingrained set of responses which may not be appropriate in a sport setting.
It is very apparent that many climbers have their own systems for climbing sport. What is lacking is consistency.
> Why on earth would we want to muddy the water with a different set of calls?
Because sport requires a completely different procedure. Misunderstandings do arise. It is particularly risky for people who usually climb trad and have an ingrained set of responses which may not be appropriate in a sport setting.
It is very apparent that many climbers have their own systems for climbing sport. What is lacking is consistency.
In reply to Howard J:
Believe it or not people have been Climbing sports for some time now , everybody was a beginner at some point , now the last thing we need is someone telling us we must do this and say that ! It's all pretty obvious , mistakes will and do happen weather you have set calls or not , , also rules and Climbing don't mix
Believe it or not people have been Climbing sports for some time now , everybody was a beginner at some point , now the last thing we need is someone telling us we must do this and say that ! It's all pretty obvious , mistakes will and do happen weather you have set calls or not , , also rules and Climbing don't mix
In reply to Howard J:
No, it's all part of climbing, it just broadens your remit as you progressive into different fields, you modify your practices and discuss with your climbing partner your plan for each route, it's no different to trad, some routes you ab off, or ab in, scramble down, walk around.... you plan all these in advance before climbing. Everything people are referring to can be solved by simply talking to your 2nd as you gear up.
I would suggest the biggest risk are indoor climbers meeting the outdoor world. Indoors 99.999% is a lower, sports crags are usually so, but rarely with trad. A trad climber is already much more adaptable in terms of exit strategy.
> Because sport requires a completely different procedure.
No, it's all part of climbing, it just broadens your remit as you progressive into different fields, you modify your practices and discuss with your climbing partner your plan for each route, it's no different to trad, some routes you ab off, or ab in, scramble down, walk around.... you plan all these in advance before climbing. Everything people are referring to can be solved by simply talking to your 2nd as you gear up.
I would suggest the biggest risk are indoor climbers meeting the outdoor world. Indoors 99.999% is a lower, sports crags are usually so, but rarely with trad. A trad climber is already much more adaptable in terms of exit strategy.
Post edited at 08:47
1
In reply to louise_travelling_climber:
I don't think there is ever a need to assume in sports stuff, everything is pretty much known or easily communicated. It's no like in winter when your partner is out of sight and you have to half guess was that a tug or did they shout safe, or was it just a blast of wind, so you strip the stance and set off, hoping they take in!!
> The belayer should assume it's very unlikely the person wants to be taken off unless they have been forewarned.
I don't think there is ever a need to assume in sports stuff, everything is pretty much known or easily communicated. It's no like in winter when your partner is out of sight and you have to half guess was that a tug or did they shout safe, or was it just a blast of wind, so you strip the stance and set off, hoping they take in!!
1
In reply to Willi Crater:
I've lost count how many times someone's said that. But what isn't said is that they will nearly always shout "I'm going to abseil, take me off!" (or words to that effect) beforehand. And if they haven't said that, there's just no excuse for taking someone off belay.
> In some situations it is better to ab off a sports route, in which you'll probably want to be taken off belay at some point.
I've lost count how many times someone's said that. But what isn't said is that they will nearly always shout "I'm going to abseil, take me off!" (or words to that effect) beforehand. And if they haven't said that, there's just no excuse for taking someone off belay.
1
In reply to Howard J:
Some will shout 'safe' once they've clipped in to the top anchor prior to rethreading. I agree it's rather pointless (they'd be better asking for slack) and I would never take someone off belay in this situation, but yes this call has become so ingrained from trad that many will still shout it automatically even if they know it's not entirely appropriate. And if the belayer suffers a similar lack of thought then they might be automatically taken off. It would still require the climber to unclip from the anchor AND launch himself off WITHOUT first checking it is safe to do so, before an accident would happen.
That's a minimum of 4 steps where things need to be done incorrectly before anything is likely to go wrong, so really it's extremely unlikely. I'm not sure coming up with new climbing calls would make the difference. If people fail to think then stuff can go wrong whichever system they're using.
Some will shout 'safe' once they've clipped in to the top anchor prior to rethreading. I agree it's rather pointless (they'd be better asking for slack) and I would never take someone off belay in this situation, but yes this call has become so ingrained from trad that many will still shout it automatically even if they know it's not entirely appropriate. And if the belayer suffers a similar lack of thought then they might be automatically taken off. It would still require the climber to unclip from the anchor AND launch himself off WITHOUT first checking it is safe to do so, before an accident would happen.
That's a minimum of 4 steps where things need to be done incorrectly before anything is likely to go wrong, so really it's extremely unlikely. I'm not sure coming up with new climbing calls would make the difference. If people fail to think then stuff can go wrong whichever system they're using.
1
In reply to Michael Gordon:
What's that got to do with my post that was merely pointing out that there are occasional times when you will ask to be taken off belay?
> I've lost count how many times someone's said that. But what isn't said is that they will nearly always shout "I'm going to abseil, take me off!" (or words to that effect) beforehand. And if they haven't said that, there's just no excuse for taking someone off belay.
What's that got to do with my post that was merely pointing out that there are occasional times when you will ask to be taken off belay?
In reply to John Lyall:
Trad climbers shouldn't instinctively use "safe" the second they top out. They should use it when they have set up an anchor, checked it, double-checked it, and are *certain* that they are actually safe. Or when they have actively looked around the top of the crag and decided they don't need belaying while they are setting up on this occasion.
If that's what many are doing, that's the problem, not what set of calls you have for what type of climbing.
(For sport, the only ones you need at the top are "take" and "slack" as appropriate, unless you're abbing).
Neil
Trad climbers shouldn't instinctively use "safe" the second they top out. They should use it when they have set up an anchor, checked it, double-checked it, and are *certain* that they are actually safe. Or when they have actively looked around the top of the crag and decided they don't need belaying while they are setting up on this occasion.
If that's what many are doing, that's the problem, not what set of calls you have for what type of climbing.
(For sport, the only ones you need at the top are "take" and "slack" as appropriate, unless you're abbing).
Neil
Post edited at 10:35
1
In reply to jsmcfarland:
There are times when that will be a poor choice for a sport route -- 30m routes on a 60m rope; 35m routes on a 70m rope. If you burn the extra length by clipping in to a fig 8 on a bight, you might not make it back to the ground. In those cases, untie; thread; re-tie is the way to go -- and really you're not on-belay if you're not tied in to the rope. Also, I've hit lower-offs (often hanging chain) where the thread-through point is narrow enough that pushing a bight through won't work, so you also need to untie and re-tie.
> No idea how many people do it but I stay on belay when I am threading an anchor to lower off and clean the pitch. Secure yourself with QD's to the anchor, call for enough slack to thread through and then fig 8 on a bight /w locker to harness or proper fig 8, untie old fig 8 then lower off. Safe as houses, I don't know why people are being taken off-belay at all on sport routes tbh
There are times when that will be a poor choice for a sport route -- 30m routes on a 60m rope; 35m routes on a 70m rope. If you burn the extra length by clipping in to a fig 8 on a bight, you might not make it back to the ground. In those cases, untie; thread; re-tie is the way to go -- and really you're not on-belay if you're not tied in to the rope. Also, I've hit lower-offs (often hanging chain) where the thread-through point is narrow enough that pushing a bight through won't work, so you also need to untie and re-tie.
In reply to dagibbs:
Before you untie, pull slack, tie an overhand knot, and clip it to your belay loop - then you're always on belay as well as preventing you from dropping the rope.
> In those cases, untie; thread; re-tie is the way to go -- and really you're not on-belay if you're not tied in to the rope. Also, I've hit lower-offs (often hanging chain) where the thread-through point is narrow enough that pushing a bight through won't work, so you also need to untie and re-tie.
Before you untie, pull slack, tie an overhand knot, and clip it to your belay loop - then you're always on belay as well as preventing you from dropping the rope.
2
In reply to timjones:
Because the trad calls are designed for the situation when the responsibilities for the other's safety are reversed: the climber is about to become the belayer and vice versa, even on single pitches, the second will follow up.
That's why "safe" is followed by "off belay".
In single pitch sports climbing, the belayer remains the belayer until the climber is back on the ground. We shouldn't actually need any calls: the climber should be able to launch off at any point, including the top. All he needs shout is "down" when he wants lowering.
The only rule we really need to remember on sport is never ever shout "safe" if you want to remain on belay.
Edit spelling.
> Why on earth would we want to muddy the water with a different set of calls?
Because the trad calls are designed for the situation when the responsibilities for the other's safety are reversed: the climber is about to become the belayer and vice versa, even on single pitches, the second will follow up.
That's why "safe" is followed by "off belay".
In single pitch sports climbing, the belayer remains the belayer until the climber is back on the ground. We shouldn't actually need any calls: the climber should be able to launch off at any point, including the top. All he needs shout is "down" when he wants lowering.
The only rule we really need to remember on sport is never ever shout "safe" if you want to remain on belay.
Edit spelling.
Post edited at 02:02
2
In reply to Just Another Dave:
'' You got me?'' is pretty reliable. ''Take me off'' can be used instead of 'safe'.
'' You got me?'' is pretty reliable. ''Take me off'' can be used instead of 'safe'.
1
In reply to Just Another Dave:
The problem that I can see here is that it's not a good idea to condition yourself into using different calls because you're on single pitch sport routes. If you're ever going to move onto multi-pitch sport routes it has too much potential to cause confusion or encourage complacency later on. Trad calls work, you just need to use them correctly.
> Because the trad calls are designed for the situation when the responsibilities for the other's safety are reversed: the climber is about to become the belayer and vice versa, even on single pitches, the second will follow up.
> That's why "safe" is followed by "off belay".
> In single pitch sports climbing, the belayer remains the belayer until the climber is back on the ground. We shouldn't actually need any calls: the climber should be able to launch off at any point, including the top. All he needs shout is "down" when he wants lowering.
> The only rule we really need to remember on sport is never ever shout "safe" if you want to remain on belay.
The problem that I can see here is that it's not a good idea to condition yourself into using different calls because you're on single pitch sport routes. If you're ever going to move onto multi-pitch sport routes it has too much potential to cause confusion or encourage complacency later on. Trad calls work, you just need to use them correctly.
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