UKC

Without being specific about the item, are these jackets worth it?

I have a new gortex jacket, it didn't cost £400, but I simply don't rate it. After walking for 4 hours in heavy rain, I got wet. This begs the question just when is something waterproof? Especially in the UK.

I am beginning to think all modern gear is a money making scam and lacks functionality.

Do you actually have a 100% waterproof jacket? If so what is it?

In reply to The Ice Doctor:

You've just learnt the first lesson of waterproof clothing. I'd be interested to hear any claims of 100% waterproof jackets. Bare in mind most jackets, waterproof or otherwise have at least 4 large holes in them...

In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Did you by any chance go walking on a day when it was actually quite warm however it chucked it down, as seems a theme this summer? If so your Jacket is waterproof but not very breathable.

In reply to The Ice Doctor:

My Paramo Analogy is the closest I've ever owned to being 100% waterproof.

Wore it walking Offa's Dyke last year and had two days of non stop heavy wind driven rain. When I took it off each evening the T shirt under was totally dry and I kept my cell phone in the pocket. It too was completely dry.

The jacket dried fully each night hanging on a coat hanger.

I have never gotten wet when wearing it.

I wash and re-proof it 3 or 4 times a year.

NB it was less than £400 -nearer £300 with the BMC discount direct from Paramo

In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Switch to Buffalo clothing, it isnt waterproof but it doesnt lose insulation when it gets wet, and dries quickly. You dont wear anything under it, so its cheap as you dont need baselayers and fellces etc. Theres a good explaination here. http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=d1318703-b1cf-4db...

They do thinner versions for summer.

In reply to The Ice Doctor:


It's waterproof when water can't get in through the fabric or the seams (the four large holes Chris mentions are another mattter) Most "waterproof" jackets are waterproof by this standard, at least when new & clean.

The problem is that, for you to feel dry, water has to be able to get *out* as well because you're producing it if you're active (sweat). That's the big problem. Modern fabrics let water vapour out ("breathe") so some degree, but somebody who sweats heavily - e.g. me - can produce condensation in an un-proofed pertex windshirt when going hard uphill. A proofed jacket has no chance.

In reply to Red Rover:



I had a chat with Stephen about this in the shop. While acknowledging the effectiveness of and his nostalgic affection for the Buffalo system, Stephen volunteered that the article had been posted as a historical curiosity and that there were better systems available for the modern climber.

Neoshell knocks Goretex into a cocked hat for breathability.

In reply to The Ice Doctor:

I've noticed over the past few years that some design features will be lost for the sake of a few grams. Any jacket will have ingress if you are out in heavy enough rain for long enough. The face fabric to liner interface will allow water in as the face wets out and even the best storm flaps and pocket designs will let it through eventually. Unfortunately a lot of jackets that are on offer now seem better suited to alpine environments than British Hills. Seemingly it was hard to get a light-ish weight jacket with good flaps and cuffs, pocket design seems to have gone backwards in terms of benefits also. Hoods often seem poorly designed for all day use too.

There are some awesome jackets out there but it is a personal thing as you want the fit as well as the design (a good fit is often completely forgotten in terms of how well a breathable works)and shopping this time around I felt I had less choice in getting something just right for its intended use.

That being said I've also seen many people over the years complain about leaks which are really to be expected. e.g. much ingress at cuff due to going stick insect mode with poles set too high(and prob not needed at all) and hands in non waterproof pockets so rain drains into them from the sleeves....

I wanted a jacket this time around for summer hill walking and dodgy crag days that I wouldn't begrudge carrying when it wasn't worn but was comfortable enough to wear for the day should I need to. I would have paid a few hundred for the ideal one but ended up getting lucky with a TNF Pursuit for £90 from amazon. It was the only jacket that fit properly in the weight class I wanted and didn't have a crap hood.

In reply to BnB:

Whenever I am in the vicinity of a Buffalo wearer I enter a nostalgic state where I recall the smell of the teddy bear I threw up on but refused to part with even after it had been through the washer a few times.....

In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Does your new jacket have pit zips, and did you use them? I find if I don't open them up every now and again, I'll wet the jacket through perspiration alone.

Also another thing to be wary of, is jackets will "wet out" as soon as the DWR has worn off. It only takes the jacket being folded a few times, worn a few times (rain or not), being in a bag and getting rustled around a half dozen times - for it to start coming off. Was water beading on your jacket?

I walked the WHW in May last year, and got absolutely drenched in my crappy old jacket - so ended up paying to get a good jacket. It works very well, and I'm pleased with it - but after starting to rock climb more I decided it was too expensive to get damaged, so I've gone back to my old one!

In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Or you can spend an extra £1000 on top of the £400 and keep dry whilst looking like a total prat.

http://veilance.arcteryx.com/product.aspx?language=EN&gender=mens&c...

In reply to BnB:
Maybe there are better things out there for the modern climber but probably not for the sweaty climber! I sweat loads and the cutting edge stuff wasnt doing anything.

In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Expensive goretex jackets are often about fit and function. Having said that if you are getting wet in a reasonably good goretex you may be scrimping on your base layers wick ability

In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Besides the obvious 4 big holes mentioned above, there is also the fact the zips aren't waterproof (only "watertight") and that there is the small issue of pressure: waterproof fabrics need high surface tension (with DWR and being unpressed), so if the jacket is a little tight, being pressed on the elbows or having a backpack/harness, the areas of pressure (from the inside or out) will have a compressed membrane and that is no longer waterproof.

And as mentioned - sweat is a much bigger issue when active outdoors, not rain. If you really suffer you can always opt for a poncho.

You can get more about it here: http://www.outdoorsfather.com/2015/05/waterproof-clothing-basics/

In reply to m0unt41n:

http://veilance.arcteryx.com/product.aspx?language=EN&gender=mens&collectio...

I'd not judge somebody wearing that as being a prat, but what puzzles me is the way the chin and lower face don't get covered by the top of the zip. It seems like an odd design to me that Arcteryx use.

In reply to The Ice Doctor:

Have you tried an umbrella?

In reply to The Ice Doctor:

I worked in outdoor retail for years and talked to many manufacturers and suppliers. It's long been my opinion that the Goretex myth is a miracle of marketing.

keeps rain out - pretty much
hard, driving rain - not so good
breathability? - very slightly better than a cheap pack-a-mac, though if you've just shelled (no pun intended) out £300 then your perception will be that it MUST be better.

(my own personal opinion, obviously).

Apart from summer when I use a basic £80-ish jacket in the rain, I tend to wear Paramo. Technically not waterproof, though it keeps me drier and far more comfortable.

In reply to The Ice Doctor:

In heavy rain / wind, nothing keeps you dry - the best you can hope for is damp but still warm!

We had a really dreich day out on Saturday - bands of heavy rain, interspaced with light rain / drizzle culminating in 2hrs of walking in constant rain, with moderate to heavy winds. Everyone, regardless of brand or cost of their waterproofs was wet by the end.

The best of the bunch though was undoubtedly my Paramo Velez adventure light. I was substantially drier than everyone else by the end - enough so that other folk in my group were commenting on it when we got back down. This isn't down to the paramo being better at keeping water out, but down to it being much better at moving the water that makes it way through back out again. My first real test of the new paramo, but impressed by it.

Downside to this is that eventually the paramo's ability to shift moisture is overwhelmed and it fails catastrophically - this has happened to a few people I know when they've been out on extremely bad and long days. Whether they'd have been any drier in a membrane layer though is anyone's guess.....

Cheers,

Stu

In reply to BnB:


I'm sure I wouldn't have put it quite like that! Buffalo would remain my choice for conditions where sub zero temperatures were guaranteed virtually all day and especially if you had to live in the stuff for days or weeks on end. I've used it on a 4 week expedition to Greenland in May (temps -10C to -20C) and it could not have been bettered. I don't find it deals so well with the marginal winter conditions that we tend to get in the UK these days as I overheat in it on the walk-ins, but that is partly because I don't find it so easy to get up to Scotland in January and early Feb as I used to so what winter climbing I manage in the Highlands is usually done in March or April. If going in the early winter, I'd definitely use Buffalo if it were cold enough.

You're right about the article though, that is definitely an historical curiosity!

In reply to StuDoig:

As one of the folks whom Stu knows who had paramo catastrophically fail on them, I can say that while I probably wouldn't have been drier, I would have been lot warmer in a membrane. On the occasions that paramo has failed just above zero, I could feel the near freezing water saturate the fabric and conduct heat away from my skin. I was very aware that if I had to stop moving and thus generating heat I could have been in trouble. As opposed to the slower cooling of the wet 'fug' inside a membrane. This is why I am happy to wear paramo sallies on my legs, but have reservations about using a jacket again and risking my core cooling dramatically in a failure.

Stu - I hope in my absence on a wet bothy morning you took on the 'torch' so to speak and cooked everyone a monster fry-up!

In reply to The Ice Doctor:


You don't see many trawlermen wearing fancy goretex jackets.
jk

In reply to Timmd:



The veilance range is unashamedly sold as high-end clothing for the city; I suspect the weird collar design is down to how it looks when unzipped.

In reply to jkarran:


Dead right, but if conditions are like a fishing deck in rough seas, I hope any self respecting climber/walker is heading for the pub/car/tent ASAP.

There is no single right jacket is there? Humidity, temperature, activity, rain intensity etc will affect what works best.

I sweat a lot so tend to use a lightweight pertex jacket and push it until I'm really getting wet before I reach for a membrane. Generally I find mid priced lightweight jackets work well - don't let much in but still let a bit out. I suppose some of the very light goretex jackets are similar to this and weigh less, but all of the really pricey jackets seem to be of the '9-ply Arctic survival shelter' variety. I do find the 'slowly cooling fug' as described by ScraggyGoat very handy when stop/starting in really dank weather.

In reply to Glyno:


Is it still the case that you can only buy Goretex from Gore if your seam sealing and design dept. passes their QA procedures? I know that this was the case up until at least the mid 90s. I am pretty sure now though that it gets signed off purely on the basis of the seam sealing technology being used at the buyer's site and does not account for design.


This I feel is totally a design issue and nothing to do with the membrane being waterproof. Bad garments let water in and also some face fabrics appear to inhibit the breathability when they are wetted leading to the appearance of the jacket leaking where wet.


Not at all. I have in warm, but changeable conditions, on long trips even washed base layers and dried them while wearing them under a jacket or with pants in internal mesh pockets or just tucked into the chest.

There are a number of issues as to the breath-ability working, and how well, I think. One is mentioned above. Poor face fabrics will act as a seal when wetted out. Another is fit, baggy jackets just don't seem to breathe well and a big loose 'flap' at the bottom or a hood you can't cinch just seems to make a condensation point and this will creep along to where it does touch inner garments. Better linings stop this to some extent but make for heavier jackets. Environment is massively important, humidity, air pressure, wind and dirt lead to some membranes doing better in a situation than others all things being equal. The other factor I think is activity and fitness. I think if you have a jacket that is keeping most of everything out but the wearer is unfit and getting hot and sweaty then taking long breaks the moisture just doesn't get pushed through and condenses in places as they rest. This seems to be worse when they open the jacket to cool off regularly. A constant rate of perspiration and a fairly static internal environment seem to work well for hour upon hour of even high activity.

On a couple of occasions I have worn a pac a mac type cape for a couple of days when it was unexpected we would need shell garments so went very light. It can be bearable if you aren't carrying a pack with a waist belt. I was and I had puddles form there.



I've found some Paramo stuff(I've tried a number of garments people have lent me when I have visited them) to be awesome for one day out. Backpacking, or not being able to dry it totally over the night and they were quite horrid. I felt like everything I tried I would never get dry once it had got severely wet. All the Goretex/hyVent/eVent stuff I have had over the years has been able to be "walked dry" fairly quickly.

I honestly don't think it is a price perception thing. I've had a tonne of jackets over the years and I have had some I have been outstandingly happy with and others I thought were a waste of money. I wore a (2nd generation) Berghaus Alpine Extreme for years. These were the only jackets I ever felt worth having repaired multiple times. That along with one lightweight ME jacket I had I'd consider to be pinnacles of multi-purpose jacket design.

In reply to hamsforlegs:

It isn't, my dad has an Aecteryx jacket and it has the same cut to the hood, so it doesn't come up to his nose and allow him to hunker into the jacket and out of the wind.

In reply to The Ice Doctor:

An old article from Mr.Kirkpatrick.

http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_truth_about_breathable_waterp...

In reply to Timmd:


Hmmm. Sounds a bit rubbish then!

I've never had to worry about the hood as I simply slip on my Veilance blazer when trotting between Mayfair art dealers in the drizzle.

In reply to hamsforlegs:


Ha funny, no it isn't so good, my dad's beard etc is clearly visible when he has his hood up, so it's clear that his face doesn't get protected because of the top of the zip not coming up high enough, and he's mentioned that being so.