UKC

Interesting watching the first lead World Cup. Slovenia took first and second in the women's comp and ninth in the men's plus several other entrants lower down the field. Pretty good going for a country of only 2 million people. It made me wonder how they produce so many good climbers. Something cultural, genetic or just pure chance?

Britain currently seems to be the exact opposite of Slovenia. With a population 30 times greater we couldn't even manage a single entrant: something unparalleled by any other large European country. At the same time we have a long rich history of climbing and although we may not have the best rock or weather we now have a really good selection of indoor facilities at which to train year round and that allow climbers to start climbing younger than ever.

So why don't we produce world class athletes like other countries do? *


* I haven't forgotten Shauna Coxey who is very much world class but I was thinking of lead climbing and maybe she's the lone exception that proves the rule?

In reply to stp:

Lack of rock, weather and of course the focus on the one true art: trad.

In reply to stp:

Because climbing isnt a sport?

In reply to Removed User:


When I pointed out the other day that we aren't much good at sport, one of the explanations was that the younger generation are focusing on indoors!

In reply to stp:

On a completely different tack (and I'm probably heading for a flaming here?) next year will be the 30th anniversary of the first ascent of Indian Face.

Today we have a lot of E9's, a fair number of E10's and at least a couple of E11's.

Yet no one yet has managed to onsight a 30 year old route?

In reply to Goucho:

I don't think you can blame climbers for valuing their lives.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Obviously, I'm just wondering why trad standards don't seem to have developed over the last 3 decades to a point where for today's top climbers, it is no longer considered a death route?

In reply to Removed User:

Did you just say lack of rock? Really?

In reply to Goucho:

I think you could just interpret that as the fact that there's a huge difference between a headpoint and a ground up ascent. Headpointing is a different game really, just like bouldering, sport and trad are different from one another.

In reply to Goucho:


They have, vastly. it just goes to show how ahead of his time Jonny was. plus its just one of those routes that will always be incredibly dangerous and almost impossibly to onsight. no amount of improvement in standards will ever make it a safer proposition.

to answer the OP, because for the most part we still value climbing for what it is in this country, a bloody good hobby and a way to enjoy our beautiful country. other nations have been treating it as a sport for decades so we will always be a generation or so behind on sport climbing development. im sure if some of our best climbers were to dedicate themselves soley to competition sport for a while we would have some decent representation, but luckily they have better things to do with their time like shove their body into cracks or hang around on a frozen belay ledge!

In reply to stp:


Oh I get that, and I also get the problem with 'reading' the moves on something like IF, combined with the seriousness, but you might have thought after 30 years, that possibly, standards would have progressed to the point where at least one person could make the onsight?

In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:

Because climbing isn't a competitive sport...?

In reply to Webster:


This has probably been said about many routes over the years

Yet despite this 'vast' improvement, routes like Margins of the Mind - only E7/8, have still not been onsighted, or only very recently? and that's another route which is 30+ years old?

Wouldn't you think climbers capable of headpointing E10/E11, would be capable of onsighting a 30 year old E7/8?

Not being contentious here, I'm just genuinely curious.

In reply to stp:

There are some incredibly talented rock climbers in the UK. Maybe we have more of a culture of focusing on trad rather than an arbitrary number on a sport route.
Impact Day on Pavey Ark received ascents recently. Is that a 'world class' route? Well I can't speak from first hand experience, but will hazard a guess at, yes it certainly is. Was it climbed as part of a competition? Seems not. That could be that we go climbing because there's an enjoyment gained from being in the mountains, in rocky places, and mentally challenging oneself. It's not just a tick in a box and never should be.

In reply to stp:

Consider how fast a thread about competitive sport climbing can turn into a discussion of 30 year old trad climbs and the reason becomes clear.

It's the climbing equivalent of every BBC football commentator being unable to talk about a world cup game which is actually in progress for more than 5 minutes without getting on to the much more interesting topic of England v Germany in 1966.

We need to get the same level of interest in competition climbing as there is in Austria or Slovenia to get the same level of results.

In reply to stp:

lack of funding and development is my guess and more of a focus historically on traditional climbing, however this is bound to change if climbing gets into the olympics (fingers crossed) along with the development and progression of junior climbers. Also the cost of going to a world cup round can be something like £1500-£2000 roughly just for the european rounds. which is a lot of money to raise if your main focus is to climb all the time and sponsorship deals over hear aren't as comprehensive as those found in europe or the usa for example.

In reply to Goucho:


Yes, but, for whatever reason(s) they generally don't seem to want to. British climbing seems to be more about doing what you want to, rather than what other people think you ought to

In reply to captain paranoia:


But it is, every time you start to climb, it's you versus the rock and sometimes your own inner demons. That is true for all outdoor climbing, be it bolt clipping, trad or bouldering.

In reply to stp:

Perhaps there are fewer British climbers who wish to enter such competitions? Presumably there were qualifying competitions, how many British climbers participated in those?

In reply to stp:

I got told a few years back that the lead teams didn't get funding/sponsorship to go to comps like this, so people had to weigh up attending this versus spending the same money on going to Oliana or whatever. I don't know if that's still the case.

In reply to HeMa:

I'm with 'Pylon' - because climbing isn't, or rather shouldn't be a (competitive) sport !

Its a very rewarding 'activity' and loses most of what is great about it by trying to turn it into a competitive sport.

Its a way of life - man (or woman!)!

In reply to stp:
Because indoor climbing is what you do between proper climbing?

The summer olympic results, especially those from Yorkshire suggest the UK can produce athletes.

Froome?

In reply to summo:


Yes it really is time we had our own national anthem isn't it?

In reply to Goucho:

Standards have improved, both in headpointing (up to E11) and onsight. Many more E7/8s being onsighted now than in the 90s, and ground-up ascents of hard routes much more common e.g. Divided Years, Ryan/Bransby/Pasquill on grit. Margins of the Mind has been done ground-up. It will always take a special effort for a bold route like that.

What you are asking is why E9s haven't been onsighted? Well they're pretty hard! Quatztcoatl(?) was done after just an ab inspection. There have been onsight/flash attempts of E9s though these have understandably not been death routes. And no matter how much standards improve, unless protection improves further Indian Face will always be a death route. And again you can't just expect climbers to go for things like that.

In reply to A Mountain Journey:

Yes, ground-up attempts of Impact Day is another good example.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


Assuming anybody particularly gave a sh*t. This is the problem I have with the OP's post: not having anybody in the top ranks of one highly specialised sub-discipline of climbing does not equate to being "behind in climbing" in any general sense.

Personally I find competition bouldering great fun as a spectator sport - and would still do even if GB didn't currently have a world class contender. Lead & speed I couldn't care less about.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

James McHaffie did attempt to onsight Indian Face in 2000. It didn't end well.

In reply to AJM:


That's interesting and I wonder why that is. Is it because the British team is too far off the mark to be worth spending the money on perhaps? It seems like climbing 9a is pretty much standard these days yet none of the younger UK climbers have achieved this standard. In fact several of the top male competitors are climbing 9b now, and several of the women competitors are doing 9a. And if that is case why don't we have climbers that are good enough given the number of climbers and facilities we have?

When comps were just beginning we did have world class climbers, competing and sometimes winning: Moffatt, Moon, Nadin, Vickers etc were all world class climbers. Why not now?

And this also makes think of the poorer and smaller countries. How are their athletes funded? There are climbers competing from Ukraine, Azerbaijaan I think, Slovenia and others.

In reply to stp:

Because our national 'sport' * is traditional climbing, not sport climbing. ( *obviously climbing isn't even a sport in this country)

We needn't slag ourselves off too much. We have some of the hardest traditional lines in the world.

The Indian Face comment is a red herring. You're comparing cheddar with brie. It's like saying "someone broke the 100m record on this track in the 80s, so why hasn't anyone broken the 400m record on it yet".

In reply to summo:


I think many countries have very good climbers who never compete. But there seems to be enough depth of talent that there are others good enough to take a place on their national teams despite this.



Redpointing 8b+ and 8c is a fantastic achievement but in terms of World comps that's the grade you're expected to onsight in the finals.

In reply to John2:

That was Master's Wall no?

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Isn't that because we have some of the only trad lines in the world? We are pretty much the only country playing that particular game.

Other countries certainly produce very bold climbers: Nina Caprez climbing Silbergeier springs to mind. A multi pitch, 8b+ with massive runouts, but usually we don't hear much about these accomplishments.

In reply to stp:

From their own pocket, the climbing federation, their own sponsors (shops, equipment manufacturers etc.) and even perhaps the goverment (climbing federations are treated as any other sport federation in numerous countries).

So most likely not all that different from how it is going in the UK.

To be honest, you generally only see these "poor" country climbers relatively close to where they reside, because most likely they need to chip in them selves for part of the expenses (or all). Quite often the climbing federation will dash out the cash for the actual comp fees, but living and transport comes from your own pocket (or sponsors).

In reply to stp:


No, and but you're the loudest of it. Then again, you do have a long history of it as well.

Traditional (in UK definition, as in bolt free) climbing is practiced pretty much everywhere. And often to quite high standards as well (both in boldness and technical aspects).

In reply to Goucho:


They have but snappy death routes are still snappy death routes.

jk

In reply to stp:

From my experience in Europe, traditional lines there tend to mean cracks or routes with spaced gear. 'The death route' does really seem to be a quintessentially British thing and we excel at it. If you want to talk about numbers and statistics, then the UK might seem a bit behind, but if you want to talk about the experience and losing your mind, then the UK seems to do very well. I think we should cut ourselves some slack and get out on what we do best.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

If Margins was that bold - bearing in mind it's tech grade of 6c - wouldn't it have a higher E grade then E7 - 4 grades below the current hardest?

Also, in connection with the OP, Steve McClure made the first UK onsight of Strawberries in June last year, yet Stefan Glowacz onsighted it in 87' 27 years earlier!

So maybe the big numbers being given today, aren't actually as big an improvement in standards as they appear - in other words, the gap between E8 & E11, is not as big as the gap between E2 & E5?

Or to put it another way, I would expect someone who can headpoint E5, to be able to onsight E2.


I understand how hard they must be (theoretically, obviously), but I still question why in the last 30 years, standards haven't developed to the level where they are getting onsighted, and why headpoint repeats still get news coverage?

Maybe the answer is that Fawcett, Dawes & Redhead etc, weren't just ahead of their time, but 25 years+ ahead of their time?

In reply to Franco Cookson:


I would have thought that was actually a valid question?

In reply to stp:

There's a few threads on UKB with gme (if you're from the "Sheffield Scene" you'll know who that is) making similar points, not just in competition climbing but sport climbing in general, the best brits (bar Steve McClure) seem to have been operating at a level below the best in the world. Various reasons came up.

Trad and "Hard Grit" - After the swing to sport climbing and the glory days of Moffat, Moon, Vickers etc and lycra pants suddenly trad climbing was back in vogue, epitomized by hard grit, you could now be a hero by being brave/stupid instead of requiring world class levels of strength and fitness

Bouldering - On the back of the trad also came this new, accessible, cool and "risk free" version of climbing. Massive appeal due to accessibility, being fun, and requiring less copious amounts of tedious energy systems training - just get strong!

Quality - The quality of sport climbing in the UK isn't great in the lower grades and the good stuff isn't exactly spread out all over the country. There a re a few gems and fair amount of choss. The trad climbing and bouldering is far superior in terms of number of quality of routes across the grades, so this is what people coming into the sport tend to do.

There's some interesting threads on UKB at the moment about what UK men and women have climbed in the last 5 years. Worth a look.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I've never climbed at Brie, is it good? Soft grades ??

Unlike some other countries there are lots of fun distractions in our isles from sports climbing so recent performances are frankly dire:

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,26017.0.html

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,25986.0.html

What's worse is hardly any of them post here regularly as presumably they are so ashamed that our combined UKC wisdom on performance climbing is too much for them

In reply to stp:

If you are an up and coming young wall bred climber cranking 8c+ or so, you need to decide what you are going to do with all that power and endurance. If you live in a country with endless high quality bolted limestone and role models to match, that choice is inevitably going to be more predictable than if you live in a country with, basically, crap sport climbing but a vibrant, anarchic and massively diverse climbing culture with role models to match.

In reply to Goucho:

Well at least we better understand your logic now.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


I'd say we excel at thinking we are the only people in the world that do this and convince ourselves we are the best because we are behind the curve in other areas.

Having said that, we've probably produced the best female trad climber in the world.

In reply to stp:

Yet another boring UKC armchair thread. I'll bite...

I have no idea what the climbing culture in Slovenia is like, from what I understand rock climbing is pretty much the national sport?

You could as easily write a thread from the other perspective "I was looking at news reports of trad ascents and it seems the british are doing really well at trad, with loads of people climbing at the highest grades, why doesn't Slovenia have as many talented trad climbers? Must be a cultural thing......"

In reply to Goucho:

A ground fall is still a ground fall?

In reply to jsmcfarland:

No it's not. It's quite interesting.

In reply to jsmcfarland:


Yet Slovenia seems to produce loads of very gnarly alpinists. How does that work?

In reply to Robert Durran:


Because Slovenia has loads of very gnarly alps?

In reply to Removed User:

You're right. According to the Cloggy guide he attempted an onsight of Master's Wall, but probably strayed onto the Indian Face.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


Yes, so do alpinists from the alpine countries serve their trad apprenticeship on alpine routes? Or do they serve it on crags without ever seeing it as an end in itself and therefore without the development of a trad culture?

In reply to stp:

I think you are missing my point, many climbers simply hate being or climbing indoors, end of. They enjoy the crags, the walk ins, the mountain, the lack of colour coded hoop jumping...

They would happily spend a day in nice weather on a long vdiff, over pushing 7 and 8a,b,c 's indoors.

Then in winter its about snow, ice, skiing, walking... Not more indoor monotony.

In reply to stp:


I think it is in part due to the lack of a 'training culture' (although we do have a strong 'raining culture'.) I know this is a situation that is changing as more youth (an oldies alike) seem to be getting into indoor competition climbing and taking it seriously. I think we'll see the fruits of that in the years to come.

However, for most UK climbers, all of us that make up the gene pool from which superstars could be drawn, we just like to go climbing, and despite all the training articles online and in magazines, despite the availability of quality training books, videos etc etc etc, most people still go down the wall, warm up on a few easy routes, climb harder routes until they start falling off or get tired, then do a couple of 'warm down' routes, then go for a beer. At weekends we like to go climbing, and for most that means starting at the bottom, getting to the top, bringing up the second, swap over and repeat until tired. As others have said, it's a way of life, it's fun, it's an all encompassing fantastic obsession, but for most the fun stuff doesn't include campus sessions, dieting, and having mates who're willing to belay you for hours while you work one route.

I'm generalising from what I see around me, but I think if you want to find the 'freaks', the outliers who'll be world class, you need the majority of participants in the activity to have the opportunity to reach their genetic potential, and I just think that's missing in the UK climbing culture. How many Ondras could there be out there who just enjoy the activity in the way I've described above? OK, realistically, there's a positive feedback loop when someone is genetically predisposed towards an activity (try it; enjoy it; perform well at it; this reinforces the enjoyment; try harder; achieve more; enjoy the success; try harder etc...) but still, most of us don't get anywhere near our potential.

I feel some patriotic pride when I see British climbers doing well on the world stage, and as much as it inspires, it also contributes to the nagging guilt I feel that I really ought to be 'getting kraft', dieting more and training properly to reach my potential, however, I just like going climbing....

In reply to Robert Durran:


I suspect there is some truth in this. I think historically the UK was unique in developing a style of climbing that evolved because of the diverse nature of our crags and their limited length. Alpine climbing encouraged a less strictly ethical style. We used to , somewhat disparigingly and IMO unfairly, call it the "French style" of ascent, pulling on pegs etc. without even trying to climb a move free. And don't forget that from the 50's and well into the 80's, Brits were pushing the boundaries in the Alps and greater ranges, thanks partly to our ethos in the UK at that time. The focus has now shifted to Sport climbing and the UK just does not have the rock nor the weather that facilitates that form of climbing.

Al

In reply to galpinos:

While Hazel is really, really good and without a doubt one of the best female trad climbers in the world, I'm still goin to have to point out that perhaps you're forgetting a few... like Lynn Hill, she's still crankin' hard by any measure and was phenomenal in the 90s. Pamela Pack is another contender, still highly active now, and there are numerous others.

In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:


There are only 3 real sports , bull fighting , car racing and Climbing , all the others are mere games . Hemingway .

In reply to ChrisBrooke:



Which is what majority of the people are doing all around the world.

What is different, is the level of climbing. In Spain, Italy and France, it is not uncommon for people to casually climb numerous french 8s during their day. Not sure how much that happens in Raven Tor or Malham, certainly doesn't happen where I live... But then again, the rock does play a role in this as well. Granite can be really hard medium to climb, and from what I've heard the limestone in Malham isn't exactly the easiest either. A long sustained tufa-roof in say Rodellar is a completely different beast, you just need a lot of power and stamina.

In reply to HeMa:


I didn't mean of all time, but is operating at that level at the moment, I should maybe have said "current" or some other such qualifier. Lynn Hill* isn't quite the force she once was and Pamela seems quite specialized (but I'll concede that apart from her "wide" efforts, I don't know much about her). Having said that, my only climbing "media" is UKC, UKB and Alpinist so I'm not necessarily up to date on who's doing what worldwide.

*I couldn't get over how small she was when she came into the climbing shop where I worked and started talking to me. I was totally star struck!

In reply to galpinos:

I can't think of a single death route I've heard about outside the UK - I hold my hands up that maybe I'm just misinformed. Some of the coolest trad things - like Prinzip Hoffnung or recovery drink - look class and hard, but aren't really deathy from what I can tell.

In reply to galpinos:


Which, I believe would be the case with majority here. That doesn't mean that there aren't really good female climbers operating at high levels even currently. But for odd reasons , they might not have been listed here.

Mayan Gobain-Smith is no slouch when it comes to hard climbing (be it bolts or trad), and then there's a bunch of unsung heroes not in the limelight. Hanna Restorp is one such climber as is the former boulderer Babsi Zangerl. And some more, which we have no clue off.

True, Hazel might be the most prolific trad climber of them all. As the others are simple climbers that do not put much effort in the "scene" in the limited media attention they receive. And as far as I've read from here, even Hazel occasionally clips a bolt or two (Fish Eye springs to mind).

In reply to Franco Cookson:


You are, there's a lot hard and deadly climbs around the globe.

In reply to HeMa:


But surely those people aren't doing that just by virtue of hanging out at steep crags and by being Spanish! They're humans with the same genetic potential as the British sample surely? The culture, how hard you try, how and how much you 'train' (and not to mention the weather and available rock) must factor in. I have climbed a few times with one of the best trad climbers in the country and it's amazing how that can open your eyes to what's possible. I'm reasonably solid on E2 with the occasional harder route, but seconding E5, E6 etc you realise it's not unachievable: you just have to try a bit harder, pull a bit harder etc. That experience really helped open my eyes to the possibilities. I think most people stay within their comfort zones and climb with mates of a similar ability, but if the culture is 'everyone climbs 8a' then you're going to feel a bit daft complaining that it's too hard to even bother trying!

In reply to HeMa:

e.g...

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

No, the available rock and culture just happens to provide an environment where people climb harder grades casually.

I don't believe for a second that spanish are training more or more systematically than their british counterparts @ Malham.

A combination of numerous factors (rock type, climate, general ambience and culture) just happen to mean that the standards in bolt clipping are higher in certain places than at others.

In reply to HeMa:

Fair enough. I wish we had some of that availability and culture in East Anglia

In reply to stp:


That's absolute bollocks and I know stp, you've been about long enough I'm sure to know it!

In reply to Franco Cookson:

This one, from my neck of the woods...
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews.lasso?l=2&keyid=362...

Ok, most likely not a real death route, as you'd prolly live. Albeit you might not want to live with quadriparesis.

It's a steep/roof dihedra with a lovely small crack the the bottom. So it can be laced with gear, but will make the climb even more difficult (grade is somewhere in the region of 8a/+ or so). And then there is the sharp rock that fell down to form the line, some 5 to 7 m below (still well, within deckin' range from the route).

And there's a bunch of such routes in Bohuslan.

And in Germany...

And in Italy...

And so on.

In reply to HeMa:

That seems to reinforce my point (?). A lot of Europeans seem very good at doing sport routes/cracks on spaced and occasionally iffy gear, but taking massive risks is not so central to the psyche of their climbing community. In somewhere like Austria, they just wouldn't see the point of soloing a 20m F7c slab.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Plenty to go at in Eldo if you want death routes. Eg. Ministry of Fear 12bX. Couple of sticky taped skyhooks as protection.

On the broader question its climate and accessibility - simple as that. Living in Boulder i can get on 2000 sport climbs of every grade within 40 minutes of the house and climb every month of the year. Another few hours gets me 3000+ more.

Its just so much easier to get mileage.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

It's an interesting concept "death routes", I'm trying really hard but I'm struggling to think of a fatal accident on a really hard British trad route over the last 25 years. Lots of people have hurt themselves - I remember the definite popularisation of wearing helmets (maybe around the millenium?) after Gresham fell off Meshuga and hit his head and Bentley wore one on Thingy-ma-jig at Burbage - but thankfully people don't seem to kill themselves. A lot of British single pitch crags are actually small enough where I guess you stand some chance even falling most of the height, particularly with people more and more using mats. Many Welsh, Scottish and Lakes routes are obviously different in that respect. Thankfully it seems the same in hard winter climbing, fatal accidents from lead falls are fortunately extremely rare - I do remember some over the years, but nothing like the regularity of accidents involving walkers or lower grade climbers on approaches etc.

In reply to TobyA:

More funnily enough, when team 'murica visited the Grit, quite a few of the supposed death routes got done by the lads. Some were pure solos, others ground-ups and some were simply bouldered.


As for the "death routes" in Bohuslan, well they generally are aretas with pretty much no protection at all. And harder climbing than say Masters edge or End of the Affair. Also higher...

In reply to HeMa:

Sounds like Scottish VS to me.

In reply to Andy Clarke1965:


So VII then with ice tools.

In reply to HeMa:

You could hardly class master's edge as cutting edge.. Nor any of the stuff done by team America.. Nor skyhook F7b..

Maccleod suggests that Echo Wall is probable death from F8c climbing - that sounds quite a way beyond anything I've heard of elsewhere.

Like I say, there may be people soloing font 7c slab cruxes etc, but the lack of people putting forward examples of this seem to suggest there aren't.

At that niche I think the UK is an exciting place to be and there is a lot to be learnt from that experience.

In reply to TobyA:

You're dead right. A death route is only a death route if you're close to your limit. People aren't soloing close to their limits.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

The Swedish routes are in low to mid 8s.

As for not giving more examples, well majority of people here are british. And guess what, most are also clueless what happens in say china or eastern europe. Heck, I'm clueless about it as well.

True, Echo wall might be the hardest, but doesn't seem all that popular. Still no 2nd ascent.

Else where, people might have just put a few bolts to it, so that you won't die and it would get climbed.

In reply to solomonkey:

There are only 3 real sports , bull fighting , car racing and Climbing , all the others are mere games . Hemingway.

Nice incorrectly quoted quote. Shame too, that Hemingway never actually said it...

In reply to Franco Cookson:

It feels like you're circling around talking about your routes without wanting to talking about your routes Franco, so beyond your solo horrors on "the moors" what other routes do you think of as "death routes"? Obviously Macleod's magnum opus, but you're mentioning soloing - so I guess you aren't thinking of routes like Face Mecca or Indian Face or Birkett E9s in the Lakes?

In reply to HeMa:


Precisely!

In reply to stp:


Not by a long chalk. Pretty much every rock route in the Alps and Pyranees are 'trad' for instance

In reply to stp:



I think there is an issue that lead climbing doesn't work so well as a spectator sport, and hardly anyone is interested in speed climbing. Bouldering is the discipline with most potential as a spectator sport and in female bouldering we are doing fine.

There are things we could do better. If you were an Austrian climbing in Imst you could easily find an 8c and probably find a 9a to have a go on. There's a chicken and egg problem: UK walls not setting 8c/9a routes because almost nobody could try them balanced against if you never set 8c/9a how is anybody going to train for that grade.

The other unfortunate thing is that a substantial number of UK climbers are actively against competition climbing and we have a governing body for competition climbing that can't get 100% behind competition climbing because it needs to represent the whole community.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


If a wall could get someone good enough to set a decent 8c/9a route it wouldn't exactly get in the way of the other routes - the holds would be tiny

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Interestingly, despite all this talk of us liking 'trad death routes' I doubt that we have more deaths amongst our top climbers despite the enormous commitment required for an on sight ascent.

In reply to Al Evans:

The truth is only a tiny few of 'us' like death routes. Most of us punt away on low-mid grade routes and bask in the reflected glory among our continental cousins that we're crazy British risk takers, eschewing the safety of bolts and living life on the edge!

In reply to ChrisBrooke:


At least that's what you think & hope the continentals are thinking. Most likely they'll be just enjoying the climbing, be it bolt clipping, bouldering or trad.

In reply to FactorXXX:

Well then it must be an incorrectly quoted quote of a quote that never existed ?¿

In reply to HeMa:

That's not what I hope they're thinking. I do think it but only with a self-deprecating sense of irony and humour, given what the actual experience of UK trad is like for most people. I have had continentals say such things to me ("oh you climb trad! I could never do that, I'm not brave enough...etc etc"), and have had to correct them that climbing trad in the UK doesn't really mean putting your life on the line every time you go out, as radical as those Stanage HVSs might feel.

In reply to Webster:


The two don't have to be mutually exclusive though... having just watched the qualifiers in Briancon, there were quite a few faces that have been dirtbagging in Ceuse for the last month or so.

In reply to stp:


We had two athletes competing in the paraclimbing (Dave Bowes and Philip Mitchell)

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Echo wall is very much an outlier, I'm struggling to think of anything similar in the UK. Indian Face always seems to be the bench mark for these sort of things but that's 7b+ (same as the Fish in the Dolomites which has been soloed). I'm sure there are harder but what are the UK death routes with 8b climbing? If Six were nine possibly comes close? Muy Caliente you say yourself isn't death. What French grade would you give your routes?

In reply to ChrisBrooke:


I've had british climbers say the same thing to me...

In reply to Tyler:

It is the outliers that create the genius though - Similarly you could say the Czechs don't produce world class sport climbers. If you look at where British trad is, we're very much on the cusp of spectacularly difficult traditional routes. I say let's relish what we have, not give into tedious defeatism, trying to make out all that matters is a how bright your trousers are and how many times you can use "boulder" in the singular.

Echo Wall may be alone at the moment, but what will be next?

In reply to stp:

I'm amused that no one's mentioned Andy Kirkpatrick's recent blog post about athletes http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/trophy_to_dust

I think that sums up quite well the significant difference between the types of athletes who are probably doing well at international comps vs. the ethos of climbers in the UK.

As was previously said:

In reply to solomonkey:

Well then it must be an incorrectly quoted quote of a quote that never existed ?¿

Can I quote you on that?

In reply to Franco Cookson:


If I understand you correctly you are saying that Echo Wall aside there are no death routes with >8a climbing but there might be soon. Other than for a handful of routes I've no idea how physically hard our hardest death routes (I hate that phrase) are so I am unable to say how they compare to stuff being done abroad but you seem to have a better idea. I guess it doesn't matter because its just not a game played abroad much (like the World Series of Baseball)

In reply to FactorXXX:



Yes I'm happy for you to quote that I quoted a quote about an incorrect quote that never existed .

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Most really scary free climbing on the continent is confined to the greater ranges, not on smaller outcrops.

There are plenty of hard routes with difficult free climbing in the Alps, the Pyrenees, the Dolomites, and in other mountain ranges in Europe where a fall can, and in some cases have, led to death or disfigurement.

For a recent example, Ballade au Clair de Lune was free climbed this summer.

In reply to stp:
There isn't the financial backing for our top climbers, sport climbing being seen by the majority of the climbing community as 'bolt clipping', the lack of suitable rock or training facilities, the fact that we haven't produced a world class sport climber since Ste Mac, etc etc...

Andy F

In reply to stp:

Hi stp,

Why is British climbing so far behind ?

Answer is....... it's not....it is in fact so far ahead of bolt sport climbing as to be out of sight.

ANdy

In reply to stp: Really frustrating reading the many ignorant responses to this post.

There are loads of young people out climbing hard stuff at the moment, or did you miss the article about the multiple 8c ticks at malham last week. Alex Barrows climbed 9a with Era Vella earlier this year, and I can think of a decent handful of up-and-coming youths who will no doubt reach the ninth grade in a year or two.

Britain also has some fantastic results in the junior competitions in both lead and bouldering, with competitors like Molly Thompson-Smith regularly placing at the top of her field.

There's a bit of a negative attitude towards high achievers (perhaps because many of you only consider trad as 'proper climbing') on UKC, with a tendency to prefer a grumbly pessimistic outlook rather than focussing on the brilliant things achieved by British climbers recently.

In particular, success in competitions is usually met with derision as a 'wasted talent' or 'not proper climbing'. Perhaps if climbers in the UK were more willing to open their minds to different aspects of the sport, then competitors would be encouraged rather than ignored and neglected, and wouldn't be so far 'behind'.

In reply to Joughton:

Adam Ondra has climbed 9b+. I'm not decrying people who have climbed 9a - that's an enormous achievement. But it's not world class.

I'm old enough to remember when Jerry Moffat and Ben Moon were putting up the hardest routes in the world - that's what this thread is about.

In reply to Joughton:

I don't think people are being negative - asking questions and playing devils advocate maybe.

But I suppose the acid test would be to draw up a list of those generally considered to be the top 10 leading (rock) climbers in the world, and see how many British climbers make it onto the list? I suppose the list would be made up of those who have climbed what are considered to be the hardest routes in the world.

Then, compare it to a list from the 80's?

In reply to stp:

Not long ago I had a brief discussion with Robbie Phillips when I asked him why, having been an out and out sport climber, getting solid at fast ascents of 8c and 8c+ routes and obviously capable of 9a or harder with a bit of effort, he had suddenly switched his focus to hard trad (eg New Statesman) and scary alpine rock (eg Bellavista) with ambitions to progress to hard free big walls in the likes of Yosemite, Patagonia and the Karakoram. He said that he felt he had "no choice" as a full time climber. It would be very interesting in the context of this thread if he came on here and explained why. He recently gave a really excellent and thoughtful talk at Ratho entitled "9a or E11?" about this switch in focus, but I don't think he explained why there was "no choice" for him; just that he was super psyched!

In reply to John2: I made the 9a point in response to an earlier post implying the only recent 9a tick was Ben Moon's.

I'm not trying to say that we're cutting edge, rather that we're not so far behind as people seem to like to beleive.

In reply to Goucho:



I think there was a suggestion that Margins could well be E8 for the onsight.




Obviously I'm not speaking from experience but I would think E8-E11 would be a similarly huge gap as E2-E5.

Like you I would also expect someone who could headpoint Rhapsody to stand a chance on onsighting E8. The difference is that an E8 onsight, like an E11 headpoint, is pretty much world class, a rare event of someone pulling an incredible performance out of the bag. The way you put it above, it sounds as though there should be E8 onsights left right and centre! Remember Rhapsody has only had 3 or 4 ascents which is not more than the number of E8 onsights.

In reply to Robert Durran:

That's interesting. 'No choice' is a poor reason, but it's definitely the right choice!

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Which would tend to back up my argument/theory, that someone who can headpoint E10/11, should be able to onsight E8?

I would imagine most climbers can onsight routes 2 or 3 grades below their headpoint level?

And not all E8's are serious, many of them are pretty well protected, so the 'very serious if you fell' argument doesn't hold water either.


If British climbing standards have progressed to the level where the leading climbers are headpointing routes 3 grades harder (E11) than E8, then yes, I would expect these same climbers to find onsighting an E8 well within their abilities.

Unless of course, the difference between E8 and E11 is in fact a lot more marginal than the numbers would indicate?

In reply to Goucho:

personally, i dont think the top end climbers are under achieving

I think the 'average' climber in the UK is distinctly a lower standard than MOST other major climbing countries

In reply to ashtond6:


Maybe, but isn't that simply because sport is largely about performance while trad is more multi faceted? Actually, I suspect the average standard amongst sport only climbers in the UK is higher than in most countries because they self select as performance orientated, while, say, in France everyone is bimbling about happily on bolts because there isn't trad to bimble about on.

In reply to ashtond6:

I don't think I've ever suggested that - I'm certainly in no position too. I made an observation and asked a question as part of a discussion?


Have you any statistics or personal experience to back this up?

In reply to solomonkey:

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/42427-there-are-only-three-sports-bullfight...

In reply to Goucho:

sorry - though i replied to your username, it was more of a discussion point in the general thread

Extremely hard to quantify, just an observation from experience

I seem to see most people climbing S-HS-VS in the UK, wheras elsewhere it seems much higher

It could be that UK crags generally have a good spread of grades - wheras areas I've been to in other countries have less so - Greece/Spain/USA/France

In reply to ashtond6:


I suspect it's a cultural thing: we have a culture of going out and doing easy trad climbing with our fat dads, wives*, kids, old friends, etc here in the UK. We obviously also have cultures of hard sport on crap little bits of polished limestone, bouldering in the freezing effing cold, whatever people get up to in Scotland in the winter, hard trad on dangerous loose, wet crags, etc, where as Brits perhaps we specialise and do pretty well. In other countries the culture is different, and probably trends towards a higher technical standard of climbing, i.e. sunny bolt clipping on quality limestone in Europe, and perhaps climbing culture being more specific to hard (dirtbag?) climbers in the states.


*braced for accusations of sexism here. It's one of those things where there's uncomfortable grain of statistical truth beneath the "ism".

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Replace "easy trad" with "easy sport" and don't you have what goes on in Euroland?

In reply to Goucho:

Well however you view them, E11 headpoint and E8 onsight are the current highpoints of British trad climbing. I see no reason to suggest that there's less than 3 grades difference between them - no climber headpointing Rhapsody has said it should be E10 or that their E8 onsight was really E9. I don't see why anyone would insert extra grades if it wasn't warranted, therefore I have to accept that they are correct.

Personally I'd say that onsighting E2 is usually a good bit easier than headpointing E5 but as I say it's different for the current leading edge. What doesn't help is you're trying to compare chalk and cheese. It's a lot easier to pinpoint one route as being 2 or 3 grades harder than another if you've climbed both in similar style. I think any of the current Rhapsody ascentionists would say there's a world of difference between that and headpointing an E8. I imagine the same would go for onsighting them?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes/I don't know, I never go. But given that it's bolted limestone, the technical standard is already going to be considerably higher. But it all being bolted limestone might make it all a bit more sporty and bet less fat and real-aley? We have a culture of doing stuff that sounds like exercise so that we can have a massive pie and chips with a pint afterwards. I have an image in my head of wholesome Euro families in which leathery skinned Dad (who climbed hard years ago) yells encouragement to his 11 year old daughter redpointing her first 8a+ while mum is preparing a salad for lunch which is rather too garlicky for climbing snackage. Whereas at Stanage, tubby, balding Geoff is jibbering up a Vdiff with equally unathletic Tony who was the best man at his wedding 25 years ago. They're both there for the company really - mainly the pie and chips after in fact.

In reply to Goucho:

Another important point is that the main focus for some, Dave MacLoed being a prime example, is pushing the boundaries of headpointing. As such they can work and work on a route to the extent that it becomes a possibility despite it being miles above their onsight grade. MacLoed has said that for a proper headpoint 'adventure' pick something 4 grades above your current onsight limit - not the 2 grade difference many would choose. So perhaps the advance in top end headpoint grades will often be out of kilter with onsights.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I'm not so sure, I feel the UK climbing scene is very much 'look at me I'm better than you' 'oh you used a side runner' putting people down culture, so trying to one up each other... rather than bumblies (obviously they exist)

I've heard euro friends say the same thing about British climbers, football fans, holidaymakers etc

The unknown on trad routes also holds us back, i for one know I wouldn't touch routes at my limit without finding out more info. Wheras I know when in USA, if I jump on 5.11 without an R or X, that it will be safe as houses. I climb harder over there than back home

In reply to ashtond6:

I don't find that in UK climbing at all. But then, I'm pretty selective in the low-E-grade adventure seeking types I tend to climb with, who are all brilliant people (obviously). None of this "I'm better than you" crap with anyone I've climbed with, it's all "have you done X? It's always sopping wet and not completely solid, all the old pegs are worthless now, but it's amazing, honest, you've got to do it!".

In reply to jwi:






I'm sorry, but it's really rather disingenuous to try and use that as an example of a cutting edge death route. I'm not attacking the climbing that people do in other parts of the world, I'm merely defending the British scene. The Fou is a class wall and I was gutted not to get a chance of just doing the normal route, but there is no way you can construe this as the above - they barely even practised it!

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Lots of the usual twaddle from people who can't climb well themselves.If you want reps at competitions,get yourself training right now.

In reply to paul mitchell:

We have sarcasm, evidence, pleas from those climbing with high performers, explanations of some of the pressures on top end UK sports climbers and most of it seemingly goes straight over head of the collective. I especially liked the point that we don't have anyone as good as Ondra: UKC 'top trumps' at it's best. I guess its an internet thing that people will spout all sorts of bollocks in the face of being wrong.

In reply to ashtond6:



One of the most harrowing leads I ever did (and I was climbing well at the time) was some 5.9 PG Fairview Dome. It was the last route of the trip and I fancied an easy day. Turns out it was severely undergraded and the gear was minimal,


Chris

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Jon, I also think the massive "trad equals adventure, risk and big cahoooonas" culture doesn't help progression past struggling up Severes. I've been lucky to host visiting Euro climbers over the years, none of whom had lead trad before, and all of whom were cruising Extremes on a variety of rock within a couple of days. Spookily, the common denominators were that they were skinny, hardly drank alcohol, ate well and trained on indoor walls. A telling comment was from a mate based in Geneva, that most trad was a 'lace up compared to the 'equipped' routes on Mount Saleve'. Having done some of those routes back in the 80s, I can only agree.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:


Of course - if you want to climb hard routes in any style, being strong and skilled is rather more useful than owning a lot of hexes. But I don't think it's good or bad that we have the different range of climbing cultures in the UK to elsewhere, and I certainly don't care if it produces people who win plastic competitions. I'm sure that's very exciting for them and their families, but it isn't for me! As long as I can go soloing and bouldering after work and climb sea cliffs and mountains in the summer, I'm perfectly happy with the UK climbing scene and culture.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:


How good were their gear placement skills after just a couple of days? Were they quick learners (some people who have been climbing for ages still can't place nuts and cams properly!) or were they just so strong and skilled that they were confident of not testing the gear on the routes they were cruising?

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Brilliant, Jon. Post of the year for me!

In reply to stp:

First off thanks for all the replies.

I want to say something about the trad ethic holding us back, which has come up a lot and why I don't think that's correct.

To climb hard routes whatever the style requires strength and fitness regardless. You're not going to be capable of doing hard bold routes if you can't at first do simply hard routes. If you can't do a 6c move when pumped next to a bolt then you certainly won't be able to do that when running it out from wire placement.

This is comfirmed by the evidence. The best trad climbers are also the best sport climbers and the best trad climber in the country, Ste Mac, is also the best sport climber. Hazel Findlay was the first British woman to climb sport 8c.

Competition routes require a lot of endurance which is the same as hard trad. You need to be able to hang on longer to fiddle in bits of pro than you do on a sport route and if the gear is dodgy you might need to up and down climb a section before committing to it. When comps first started and Britain did really well it used to be argued that our trad heritage was actually a plus point that produced stamina monsters like Simon Nadin and Ian Vickers.

Having said that though I'm not sure we are quite the nation of trad climbers we like to think, at least at the harder grades which is relevant to this discussion. It seems to me once climbers reach a certain level in this country, around E6 - the grade where the quality of sport routes goes right up, the majority tend to favour sport climbing over trad. I've been at Kilnsey several times this year, a crag which has both superb trad and sport routes. There are always other climbers there but it's only the sport routes that I ever see people climbing. The trad lines of E6 and above don't even have chalk on them and don't look like they've been climbed for years. I'd say this is true of most areas that have a good mix of trad and sport. Cheedale is another example.


I think the lack of support and funding for the British team, cited by someone above is a more likely to be the reason we have no one in the comps. Are we really worse at this than so many smaller or poorer countries? Ecuador, Czech Republic, Holland, Slovakia, Brazil, China, Chile, Korea, Japan and many others all managed to get climbers to the Chamonix WC. Why didn't we? Do those countries give more support to there climbing teams than us? And if so then why aren't the BMC doing more to support the British team?

In reply to stp:

Do those countries give more support to there climbing teams than us? And if so then why aren't the BMC doing more to support the British team?
>
Presumably because competition climbers represent only a small subset of members of the BMC-so we are back to the original issue of other specialities diverting attention and resources.

In reply to stp:

Really? He is certainly the best sport climber but seems to chose hard trad climbs which play to his sport climbing strengths ie ones which would make typical hardish powerful endurance sport routes if bolted and which are either safe or run out but not actually really dangerous. I would have though that the very best trad climbers would be the ones capable of consistently onsighting various styles of route (including bold ones) on various rock types at cutting edge grades (as well as headpointing). Obvious candidates spring to mind.


I think this is nonsense! E6 is a pretty accomplished grade for trad and the idea that most people are suddenly going to switch to focussing on sport rather than targetting the many brilliant trad routes available once they reach that level seems absurd. I suspect most will do both, with the physical sport strengths complementing their trad skills.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Hi Robert,


A bit of all of the above to be honest, although they seemed to pick up gear placements really quickly as some screamers on High Tor testified. Certainly a consensus that it was easier to trust something you placed yourself than some of the 6mm rusty studs which passed as fixed pro on some sports routes at the time.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:



Yes, I'm also a bit sceptical about the idea that it takes years and years of bumbling on vdiffs to learn how to place gear, particularly because most of us mid-grade trad punters are absolutely terrified of falling off and rarely do it. The mechanics of placing gear and physics of how it works aren't really that complex. I've seen people who are very good sport climbers go to being very good trad climbers rapidly, mainly because they are intelligent types who probably would have done well in the spatial awareness and reasoning section of the A level general studies paper also. Additionally, they had power and technique to burn so that they could hang on a long time while calmly thinking about how to place their gear well and then they weren't petrified when their feet got above it like I generally am!

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Yeah, I wasn't talking about sandbags - that's slightly different

In reply to Oldsign:

A link to my quote ? You ment to send it to factorxxx ?

In reply to TobyA:

Sasha diguillian (sp) recently climbed a 8b+ on gear in ceuse (black bean) as her first proper trad lead after following someone for a day. Proves your point that sevibg an appreciation on piss trad is a misused excuse for not progressing.

In reply to stp:

Do you at least acknowledge now from the UKB lists that UK sports climbing on routes is both still improving (think especially on the equivalent lists 10 years back.... they would be a lot thinner) and already in a pretty healthy international state ( irrespective that we are a country with much less natural focus on the particular game)?

On the wider point of climbing health I think the UK is simply by far the best in the world. We have huge numbers of people enjoying everything from scrambles up to the elite on some of the hardest climbs in most major forms of the game.

In reply to solomonkey:

You're not wrong

In reply to Robert Durran:


It may seem absurd but I'm just noting what I see at the crags. There certainly used to be more of mix; we used to have far fewer sport routes so you pretty much had to do both.

I think however if you go by news in the climbing media it may seem different because we read about sensational scary first and second ascents of rarely done routes. Even amongst climbers who do both trad and sport I suspect many are doing at least as much of the latter. A classic example, although not British, is Alex Honneld. Media coverage would give the impression that he solos almost everything. Yet in interviews he always points out that this is only a small part of his climbing and much of the time he's doing safe sport routes. He's climbed up to 8c+ sport, but that's not nearly hard enough to be worth reporting so its easy to be unaware of that.

I actually think most climbers prefer safe climbs, by quite a large majority. Most trad climbers mostly choose the safe well protected routes rather than the runout, bold and dangerous routes most of the time it seems to me.

In reply to Oldsign:

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/42427-there-are-only-three-sports-bullfight...

Which just goes to prove how things can easily become Urban Myth...


Hemmingway, in all probability never ever actually said/wrote it: -

http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/auto_racing_bullfig...

In reply to Offwidth:
Not sure which UKB list you are referring to. Very hard to find stuff on that web site. I found the Cream of the Crop list but its just the last five years so don't know how it compares.


25 years ago we had Hubble, the world's hardest route, now considered 9a. It wasn't so long before it got repeats by British climbers: Malcolm Smith, John Gaskins. Jerry Moffatt almost did it. That is the equivalent today of climbing 9b+ so we had not just one but a group of climbers up there really pushing the standard.

Since then we've only 2 ascents that have significantly topped Hubble: Violent New Breed 11 years ago and Overshadow 8 years ago. Today, all these years later, repeating these routes would be less significant than back then. 9a+ is still very hard but its a grade that gets done fairly regularly elsewhere in Europe. However today we don't even have anyone capable of making serious attempts at these routes. I think they're simply too hard. Looked at in that way you might even argue that climbing standards at the top have regressed. Not quite though because Steve Mac is hopefully not too far from completing his 9b proj at Malham.

The exception I think is in women's climbing. From around the time of Hubble, Ruth Jenkins had climbed 8a+ (Caviar). Today several women are climbing 8b+/8c, a bit of a progression from Lucy Creamer's 8b+ in 2009.

In reply to stp:
I think its hard to get a fair comparison between athletes in different countries when you look at success on hard outdoor routes. If you live in a country with good weather and a lot of bolted routes at high grades relatively close to where you live then the logistics of finding a project at the grade you want that plays to your strengths, spending a lot of time on it and getting a day with perfect conditions when you are at peak fitness are a lot easier. So more people will be able to get to 9a with a long campaign.

Going indoors makes the logistics in a country like the UK much easier. If there were 9a routes set on walls in the UK we would get people spending months on them and eventually getting there. If there was an indoor 9b route on a wall in a city with many strong climbers in the UK and a significant cash prize for the first UK climber to top it we would get someone putting in the time to do it.

In reply to stp:
The UKB lists were linked directly at least twice above. If you care enough to continue this argument at least spend the time to look and see. F9 ascents are certainly not routine, only the world's very best climbers are achieving this and we have some of them and plenty not far behind.

Edit... moved into a new wiki link now:

http://ukbouldering.com/wiki/index.php/UK_Cream_of_the_Crop#Sport

In reply to stp:

Ruth Jenkins had also done Zeke at around the same time (mid 90's) so maybe things haven't moved on that far there either? There are however many more women climbing harder and independently of male partners than back then and women bouldering hard.

James

In reply to Offwidth:
We do have some men in the chasing pack, but our best sport climber is still a full grade below the top level (though hopefully not for long). Our best boulderers are maybe 1/2 a grade below the world max and our best women boulderer is probably one of the top 3 in the world. Not bad for a small island with mostly crap conditions on not that brilliant rock.

The majority of the climbing population still bumble about carrying cow bells, wearing Ron Hills, thinking E1's are hard and sport climbing is the devils work.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:
Sure but most climbing countries are at least a full grade below the top level and my point was our UK context with our weather and trad heritage is important (and things are still improving).

I rarely meet anyone else in ron hills these days

In reply to andy farnell:


A certain Mr Cookson is famous for wearing Ronhills, and he's on the cutting edge isn't Andy?

In reply to Offwidth:

It's as much an attitude as a physical manifestation

In reply to TobyA:

I have no idea what he wears at the crag, pub, work or at home.

Andy F

In reply to stp:
Regarding the GB Lead team, we don't currently have the set-up required to have athletes making finals/podiums in senior international events. Without going into great detail, it's fairly clear why this is and has been explained to some degree in the comments above.

The cost of travelling to competitions is just one part of it - add in training costs, physio support and all the rest and it gets even more expensive. Time for training and travelling to events at senior level becomes more problematic than at junior level, with work and family commitments coming into play. The standard is higher and at the same time training becomes more tricky to fit in - thus the level of commitment needs to be pretty intense! On a cultural level, I think our 9-5 working lifestyle and tendency to rush into higher education is an additional hindrance, abroad the approach is different and this helps the fragile transition period between junior-senior level go a lot more smoothly. Add to this the fact that interest in competing is limited (due to the aforementioned issues) we often end up with motivated individuals having to train alone. On the continent, clusters of team members can train together on a regular basis or have funding to travel to national centres with groups of other athletes.

We have a very talented and hard-working junior team, but it is incredibly difficult to make the leap to senior level without the support that other countries receive. This doesn't mean no-one can do it without, but just that it'd be really bloody hard!

In the UK, the attitude is very much "climbing isn't a sport", "climbing isn't/shouldn't be competitive." There are many Brits who believe that trad is superior to other forms of climbing for various reasons. If you're getting into climbing and are exposed to a particular attitude or discipline, it's inevitably going to affect the direction and form which your climbing takes (unless you're a 'rebel' who is more reluctant to jump on the bandwagon.) This is especially true if you're an easily-influenced, easily-lead kid. I think as a nation we place bouldering before sport a lot of the time - a massive generalisation, but we do have a stronger history of performing well in bouldering (outdoors or in comps) on a global scale than we do in sport.

On a wider level, this attitude extends to the amount of funding a particular area of the sport/hobby receives from governing bodies and other potential sponsors. Greater interest and participation attracts more money, rightly or wrongly. Our indoor facilities are mostly built as commercial recreational centres, not as elite training facilities. Visit walls in countries where climbing is a national sport - Austria, France - and there is a big difference in the scale and difficulty of the walls and routesetting. We are, however, fortunate to have world-class bouldering facilities which is a massive boost for our bouldering teams.

Back to sport climbing, since the focus of the majority of climbers in the UK is on climbing traditional routes of a much lower difficulty than the sport routes climbed abroad, that affects our basic 'performance' standards overall. Mainland European countries have a stronger sport climbing scene, primarily due to their plentiful supply of bolted limestone cliffs. If we consider role models in our local area or even our climbing partners, there is a tendency to aspire to the level of those around us. Whilst in the UK the average grades (VERY roughly) according to these UKC graphs (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/graphs.html#gradetype2) are 6a+ and HS, you can expect the sport grade to be significantly higher in France, Spain etc.

As a junior competitor, I was constantly asked why I didn't want to climb outdoors/trad climb and get into "real climbing." I think this speaks for itself really, and whilst I am beginning to enjoy trad now through my own choice, looking back I'm glad I was stubborn and independent enough to ignore other people's opinions on what "real climbing" should be for me! The beauty of climbing is in its wide range of disciplines, surely!? Each to their own and all that...

(apologies for the rambled post, I'm watching the IFSC Lead World Cup finals at the same time...not good for concentration but great for motivation )

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Thanks for the excellent reply. Lots to think about there.

I can certainly see other countries like Austria, France and even Slovenia might prioritize climbing comps far more than we do I'm still amazed that all these other countries - like Ecuador, China, and Azerbaijan - are managing to out do us, especially at these nearby European events.

As for the "climbing isn't a sport" brigade I'd always assumed that was more of a small band of trolls on UKC than anyone having a real effect that people actually took seriously. It's a real shame if this asinine attitude is part of what of what is holding back British climbing.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Fully disagree here - many hard routes are easily accessible from big cities- malham, raven tor, Kilnsey.

I think climbing in the UK is probably the most accessible in the world, also, our wet months will be countered with the too hot months in Spain or France

In reply to stp:
Thanks! In the countries you mentioned, they tend to enter the Speed events IIRC. Speed climbing is unfortunately of an even more "niche" status than the lead events in the UK!

I should also add: There is no form of qualification event prior to entering World or European events - a country's governing body simply enters a National team depending on their own set of criteria, if one even exists. There is no minimum grade or ability to enter, and most will select based on national level competition results eg BLCCs, BBCs.

The book 'Bounce: The Myth of Talent and the Power of Practice' is a great read if you're interested in nature/nurture and talent/training debates. Mentions the importance of the training environment and external influences a lot.

In reply to ashtond6:


Certainly, if you live in Sheffield or Manchester you are better placed than in many other parts of the country.


We were talking about *sport* climbing and there is no way sport climbing in the UK is more accessible than in Spain, France or Austria.

In reply to stp:

For climbing to be seen as a sport implies, in part, that it has an audience or a potential audience.

Whilst hard sport climbing is impressive in terms of the grades achieved and dedication and commitment of the climbers doing it, I'm not sure it garners the interest of the wider climbing public in Britain in the same way as the slightly eccentric things our top climbers get up to does.

I would much rather watch or hear news reports about our top climbers soloing 100 Lakeland extremes in a day or attempting all the Brown/Whillans routes on grit in one push in filthy conditions than redpointing a slightly harder route than last week on the limestone.

I'm genuinely not sure what aspects of climbing are of most interest to non-climbers in this country. Do you know how interested Slovenians (to use your example) are in watching their top climbers doing sport climbing competitions?

As for British climbing being held back - yes, we might be behind other countries in terms of grades achieved in sport climbing, but we do pretty well at lots of other aspects of the sport (no, I don't mind calling it that). I would rather (from a spectator's point of view) our best young climbers carried on doing daft things in banana costumes or seeking out the world's strangest cracks than put those things on the back burner to concentrate more on competition climbing.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Have you been following me?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

>If there were 9a routes set on walls in the UK we would get people spending months on them and eventually getting there.

Wouldn't then just lapping 8b/c (which presumably they do have at UK walls) give you a 9a "experience"?

In reply to Morgan Woods:


I wouldn't presume that - I suspect there are relatively few walls that regularly have anything harder than 8a/+ set. I've never seen an 8c route indoors anywhere apart from at the wall in Zurich.

In reply to stp:

I would also point out that Australasia (ie Oz & NZ) has 3 women/girls who have climbed 8c (Andrea, Mayan and Angie - at 10!!!) which I think is pretty good going for such a small population. This has been both at home and on Euro limestone.

No Oz men have ticked 9a yet so maybe they lag while the females overachieve or have a couple of outliers operating at the same time.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

It is quite rare to find 8b/c routes indoors. Most centres usually get to around 8a, obviously there are a few exceptions but they certainly are not the norm.

In reply to AJM:

Then wouldn't you just adapt your training to suit ie including more campussing and fingerboarding for example? I don't think it's a pre-requisite to have a 9a route at your local wall before one ticks that grade.

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Frankly an elephant in the room seems to me too many of our best performing sports climbers who could be doing well in comps are currently not interested. Maybe this relates to many of the points you discuss but it needs to be said.

I think the anti-sport or anti-competition attitude of many UK punters cant be that significant. It might not help, but it was worse 'back in the day' and didn't stop Simon or Jerry (nor the fans) nor did it stop the current generation of high performers on the UKB list getting as good as they did.

I'd also point out the hassle of life as a competition climber applies to all those who take part. The only way this will be making a difference to brits is the combination of this with maybe further average travel, funding problems, how valued the competitors feel etc.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

I think the point was more that given the indoor:outdoor ratio of many climbers especially in the more rockstarved areas the suggestion was more that setting harder routes indoors would get people to actually try that sort of level of climbing more - I don't think there was ever a suggestion that you need 9a indoor routes in order to climb 9a outdoors because that's so clearly ridiculous.

That's certainly what I took from the point anyway.

In reply to andy farnell:


Or any of the other places you follow him to...

In reply to AJM:

>...I don't think there was ever a suggestion that you need 9a indoor routes in order to climb 9a outdoors because that's so clearly ridiculous.

Indeed, indoor climbing is training after all... and there aren't any grades there (at least ones that matter).

In reply to AJM:

How many people could actually set 9a routes? Never thought about it before but presumably its hard to set routes harder than you can climb yourself as "feel" much be so much a part of it. I would imagine Mr McClure might have a monopoly on that market sector!

In reply to AJM:


Awesome Walls in Sheffield had an 8c set a while back along with an 8b+ and an 8b. I never saw anyone even attempt them let alone get up them. However Alex Megos was there one afternoon and flashed the 2 8b's and fell off the 8c. I think that such grades are probably too hard for Brits to train on at present, certainly the 8c.

For pure training then I don't think its necessary to have such routes set. The Czech Republic also lacks these things and Adam Ondra trains for comps on a very rudimentary plywood board doing circuits. The lack of such facilities never held back our best onsight climbers like Steve Mcclure, Simon Nadin, Jerry Moffatt or Ian Vickers. So they might be nice to have and offer a slight advantage in training but I don't think that's the reason we're not competitive.

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:


This year they've all got athletes in the lead WC. They might not have made the semis but they at least made the qualification round.



Yeah I've no doubt that's a very important factor and is the precise reason why so many serious climbers have migrated to Sheffield over the years.

I have also heard that the British team doesn't really train that hard and that one of our most talented team members was invited to train with the Austrians briefly and ended up completely exhausted. I presume that had they trained with the Austrians regularly they might well have become a world class competitor.

In reply to Offwidth:

Yes, it's true that not everyone who climbs hard sport will want to compete, nor will they necessarily be a good competition climber. It is a very different set of skills and style of climbing.

The attitude aspect is unlikely to be directly significant but it is part of the culture of UK climbing and the environment that these athletes have to train in. The fact that as a nation we are more interested in football/rugby/cycling than climbing is likely more significant from a funding point of view, but trad is very much engrained in our UK climbing history and the superior status which it holds for many will affect competition participation to a lesser extent. The growth in popularity of indoor walls is changing the scene gradually though, with more kids being introduced to the sport in an indoor environment and progressing to competitions (and outdoors for many). As a child of a non-climbing family, trad was off the cards for me as a youngster and indoor and competition climbing was the safest and easiest option. Without it, I wouldn't be climbing today!

Of course the commitment and 'hassle' is the same to some degree, I'm not saying that other countries have it easy and don't work hard, but rather that the training opportunities and environment are unfortunately not the same for everyone. You just have to make the most of what's available!

In reply to Sam Beaton:


That's fair enough though I'm not sure your personal tastes are indicative of the wider population. On Youtube the fat suits ascent of Master Edge has had 4000 views compared to 47,000 views for Ben Moon's recent third ascent of Rainshadow.

I don't think climbing is the best spectator sport by a long way - I think tennis is pretty good - but it nevertheless does generate a decent audience. There were 1500 at the recent Chamonix World Cup but tens of thousands more watch via live stream or later on Youtube. The Vail WC boulder final has now been watched 187,000 times. The video of Sharma's and Ondra's battle to climb the sport route La Dura Dura has now been watched almost 2 million times. The annual CWIF comp at the Climbing Works is always so rammed you need to get a seat at least an hour before the final starts to have any chance of sitting down at all.



I don't think in a country as big as ours one has to preclude the other. The British team could be much better whilst the Wide Boyz carry on doing there own thing. The diversity of the sport is one of the great things about it.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


sorry but that is just not true
in the UK you can live in many major cities and have easy after work cragging that doesn't exist in most other parts of the world - Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Glasgow, Edinburgh & Bristol being the mai

E.g. Sheffield - you can get to 8B boulders within 10 mins and 9a & E10 within 20 mins - if your a keen climber most move to these areas but even our 'non rocky' counties have access to hard rock within 1-2 hours

Even 1-2 hours is better than most places - Siurana is considered a Barcelona crag, this is 2 hours away

I have researched this thoroughly as I want to move abroad & the only places I can find afternoon cragging is Vancouver, Hobart, Cape Town & Boulder

In reply to ashtond6:


ding ding...

And yet there's a bunch of really strong climbers coming from countries without *any* rock to climb. Eg. Netherlands has produced quite a few competent climbers, be it with a rope or without.

In reply to ashtond6:

Off the top of my head - and sticking with big US cities: Denver, Salt Lake City, Tucson and Vegas to add to your after-work climbing list.

In reply to ashtond6:


First we were talking about sport climbing which is a bit more specific than cragging. Second, putting Edinburgh on a list of cities with great cragging makes me wonder about your sanity. FYI: the queen has banned climbing on Salisbury crags.

Maybe it is two hours drive from Barcelona to Siurana. But then you are in Siurana. Two hours drive from Edinburgh looking for sports climbing gets you to Kirrie Hill.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

ok remove Edinburgh from the list

All applies to the others for sport climbing

I agree its easier to be inspired by Siurana than by Horseshoe quarry, but the convenience helps us

I think most would drive 2 hours to get to Siurana each weekend, but the 'local' crap crags are very helpful to go after work

Compare this to Yosemite, San Francisco's local crag, a mere 4 hours.... or to Indian Creek, Salt lake city/Denver - 6 to 10 hours

Hence, in my opinion, the UK has amazing access to many different types of rock - including sport climbing

In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC:

vegas - red rocks is more like 40 mins and the sun sets early so not really after work cragging potential
Denver - see Boulder
I will check out SLC & Tucson

But can't go as no green card!

In reply to ashtond6:


Fixed that for you.

Al

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


What about Bennie Beg - easily as good as anything Siurana can offer surely?

In reply to stp:

Have written and deleted a reply to this thread a few times. I just didn't want to be antagonistic or patronising. This is from someone with zero climbing background and a 8yr old daughter with a bit of ability.

If my daughter wanted to play football I would know dozens of people to speak to. She could have the choice of 10 teams to train with, she could play football every night of the week. I could get her coached free of charge to a high standard easily. I have a history with football, but if it was rugby, athletics, cricket etc then I would be equally confident of the training and readily available expertise.

But she isn't interested in these mainstream sports. She is interested in climbing. And shes bloody good at it too. Her mum doesn't particularly understand it. It would damage her manicured nails. Her friends don't understand it as they see my daughter climbing out of the spindly branches at the tops of trees. Other kids don't understand it when my daughter enjoys climbing into her bedroom through the bedroom window using the scaffolding the builders have left behind. Joe public in Britain don't understand climbers full stop!!

So go back 18mths and I take her to the local climbing centre. The best centre I could wish to find imo. The staff are fantastic. The owners are fantastic. The setup is amazing and it couldn't be better in general.

BUT, I don't climb. I don't have a history or a future of climbing. I ask for advice on here and without fail the advice is for me to climb and learn. I cant for medical reasons. She spent 6mths where it was obvious she had 'something' with me trying to help her. Then she was asked onto the climbing team. She got top 10 at the YCS as a younger climber etc etc etc. But she still only gets taught once a fortnight with a group of other climbers. The rest is me and her muddling through with natural technique and me sitting for hours watching other climbers as reference.

So whats my point? I don't believe we are behind in our climbers. We are behind in results because the only real way to become a world class talent in this country is to be born with climbing parents or to have some god given ability that shoots you to the top of the tree. The ones who need that little push are fighting a hell of a battle.

TBH my daughter is really lucky in another sense. She benefits from team training. All the instructors are very nice but need to earn a living so need paid for the 'extra help'. I have a group of friends who have climbed and offer me advice but its just a token gesture.

At the end of the day I see climbing having a massive boost in the next few years. It is becoming fashionable and it will become more and more understood. I am shocked at the lack of funding for things like the british team where climbers have to fund their own training etc. This needs addressed and I believe it will happen sooner rather than later as the understanding increases.

Finally I don't see much being given back by experienced climbers. My last football match I was ambulanced off the pitch. When I learnt to walk again 1st thing I did was my coaching badges and spent the next 7yrs coaching kids free of charge. I am having a break now but I would never ever turn a kid away from playing football. Turn that around to climbing. A neighbour of mine had similar level of climbing to my daughter and wanted to make the step up to climbing outdoors. He was in his mid 20's. Contacted the local climbing club (Not associated with the indoor club my daughter uses) and he was told that they were not willing to have him come with them to learn or climb with them. He would have to get himself upto standard first. How exactly does one teach ones self????

There is so much for climbing to offer but at the moment it likes to keep its little secrets. Soon though the fashionable side will take off and the quick'er fix that is sport and indoor climbing will imo explode in popularity.

Just my opinion of course

In reply to stp:

Oh just to add, the more popular the sport the more chance there is of picking up that amazing talent that could go undiscovered. The kid who has parents who wouldn't know what the hell climbing entailed. The kid who sits in front of an xbox because his parents show him no attention. The kid who is amazing on the climbing frame at school but because no one outside of climbing understands climbing, he is pushed towards playing football etc.

Climbing in the uk likes to keep its mystical presence. Imagine the climbing equivelant of Wayne Rooney trying to get himself a foothold on the climbing ladder.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
And who climbs 9b from popping down to their local crag after work?

In reply to FactorXXX:

Bloody spoilsport :p

Well found!

In reply to Andrew Kinnersley:
Not sure what you mean by climbing keeping it's little secrets. Trad climbing is well catered for through climbing clubs and there are more climbing walls than you can shake a stick at, not to mention all the centres offering courses and shops selling gear. And all this for what is after all a minority activity. Climbing has never been as accessible as it is these days.

Al

In reply to andrewmcleod:

One of the world's three 9b+ sport routes is on Adam Ondra's grotty local crag that he pops to after school / uni, as is one of the world's rather few claimed/maybe 8C+ boulder problems.

In reply to AlanLittle:
Which grotty crag local to Adam has a 9b+ on it?
Which climb do you think is 9b+ and for that matter which are the three 9b+ climbs you speak of?

Sorry,

Sloup passed me by, not sure how. SO does that mean there has not been a new 9b+ Since 2013?
Why are we not decrying the standards of International sport climbing decreasing?

In reply to ashtond6:




Hmm, there´s thoroughly and then there´s "really thoroughly."
Palermo has an enormous crag inside the city itself and there´s plenty more decent sized places in Italy that can say the same. The Scandinavians mostly have a heap of rock on the doorstep like Gothenberg where the sun probably sets latew enough for you or you could move to somewhere decent like Bavaria, not particularly far from Nurnburg for example to plenty of world-class rock.

In reply to jimtitt:

my post should have said 'where the language is English' - which obviously limits things

In reply to jimtitt:


That isn't really the whole truth. Bohulan is a bit special, in both quantity and quality. Most other towns in Swe or Nor do not have as much high quality climbing. And let's not talk about Finland...

In reply to ashtond6:

And they´ll let you in

In reply to Andrew Kinnersley:

You make a very valid point about the difficulty for young children to get climbing training. However climbing is a very different sport from football, and climbing clubs are organised very differently and serve a different purpose.

Football is a competitive sport, and a football club will operate within established leagues, including children's leagues. By encouraging children they develop players who will go on to play for the club at other levels. Also, a coach can train a group of players, whereas climbing is best taught one to one, or at most very small groups of two or three, so investment in training coaches reaps far greater rewards.

Climbing clubs on the other hand are essentially social groups, to give their members a pool of others to climb with. Some members may be interested in competitive climbing, but they are likely to be a minority and it is unlikely that competitions are a significant part of the club's activities or purpose. Clubs are reluctant to get involved in teaching and coaching for a variety of reasons, but in particular because the risks are much greater. If you get it wrong, either the trainee or the trainer could die. That doesn't happen very often in football. Most club climbers are very willing to encourage new climbers, but are cautious about going beyond the most basic levels, not least because a novice who cannot belay could get you killed. There are also questions of liability and insurance. However new (adult) climbers are encouraged to go on a formal training course to learn the basics, at which point most clubs will then welcome them.

Where minors are involved, child protection adds a layer of complexity (especially where overnight stays are involved) and many clubs are reluctant to take this on when there may only be a small number of children interested. Having children along also alters the social balance which may not be welcome - football clubs can easily separate children's and adults' activities, it is not so easy when you are all sharing a climbing hut without gender segregation.

Finally there is the question of what you coaching for. With football it is simple - to develop the skills to play competitively. Climbing is a far wider spectrum, and clubs don't have the resources, even if they wished to, to train their members to pursue any particular aspect. They expect their members to develop themselves in accordance with their own interests. For those interested in sport climbing and even competitive climbing that will include formal training and coaching regimes, while others will never have trained or had a formal lesson in their lives.

In reply to Andrew Kinnersley:

Thanks Andrew for your thoughtful reply. I'd say you're daughter is lucky in another sense too - having a really supportive Dad. Many kids certainly don't have that.

It's true that climbing is far more accessible now than it used to be. When I was kid I went 3 times in 3 years when the local scout group decided to go. After that I had to wait until I was an adult with my own transport to try it again and discover that I really liked it.

But of course that's not to say it couldn't be even better now. Free coaching in football sounds like a wonderful thing to do. Because of the danger aspect in climbing I'm not sure how easy that would be to organise what with insurance etc. Possibly difficult at an indoor wall? For instructing climbing one needs a special qualification so that would rule out many people. Coaching as opposed to instructing is different but I'm sure when children are involved. There are usually police checks needed to when working with children too so another barrier to cross I'd imagine.

Of course one can always get coaching informally through people you know but of course if you're not a climber you're unlikely to know anyone.

From what I've heard the BMC actually do more to help young climbers than they do adults. Possibly to do with getting more funding for what is seen as a socially useful thing to do. I don't know how far this extends though

Finally I think you're absolutely right about children of parents who are climbers being the future. Adam Ondra is the ultimate example of that now. I do think though that most climbing walls are keen to get youngsters in. After all those are their customers of the future. Here in Sheffield the local bouldering wall, The Climbing Works, has one whole building specifically set up for younger climbers. Parents can just take them and supervise whilst the kids get to climb all they want. It's not coaching but I think learning by doing and experimenting is nevertheless a great way to learn the sport as that problem solving aspect is always there.

In reply to ashtond6:

Not much good cragging near Glasgow either

In reply to Michael Gordon:

World class lines as Cambusbarron forth quarry, they are just not done very much

Also, Dumbarton? Surely requiem and sufferance etc are world class

In reply to ashtond6:
Hmmm, some good lines at Camby. 'World class' is a ridiculous statement!

Dumby is pretty poor for trad. You've got a single good HVS, E1, E3, E5 and E8. So no more than one evening's worth for most. It's really a bouldering venue with a bit of trad and sport.

In terms of Scottish cities, only Aberdeen has much nearby in terms of local cragging.

In reply to HeMa:

Come on Henkka, Helsinki is a rock climber's nirvana compared to London or Birmingham! The bouldering is more extensive within the city than Sheffield has. OK, the winters are hard but you can ice climb in a 30 minute drive from the suburbs!

I've only done a bit but Stockholm has lots of urban climbing and tonnes more around the city.

In reply to TobyA:

Bouldering is not real climbing... neither is bolt clippin' .

But what I say is still true. Bohuslan is an exception to the rule, both in quality and quantity.

True, other scandinavian locales might have a lot better climbing than say Rotterdam (nada) or London, but people in Manchester have it better.

BTW. Finland isn't in Scandinavia (except for a tiny part near Kilpisjärvi)... It is however a Nordic country.

In reply to stp:

Because all our best athletes are footballers, tennis players, cricketers, sprinters, hurdlers, jumpers, swimmers, distance runners, rugby players, rowers, cyclists, gymnasts.

In reply to HeMa:


This^^^

Come on guys, I thought we'd established in this thread that bumbling at Hard Severe is where the adventure is to be found. Get on message!!

In reply to HeMa:


They really don't. I've lived in Manchester and I've lived in Helsinki. For evening climbing Helsinki has loads of possibilities (as you well know), particularly if you need to rely on public transport or bike. And while Hobson Moor Quarry holds a special place in my heat, Kauhala trounces it for number and diversity of routes. Manchester is very well positioned for weekends or day trips - I have thought numerous times this winter how much easier it is to get from Manc to the Lakes or Wales than it is from Sheffield, normally whilst slithering over the snake pass in the snow at 5 am in the morning! Then Helsinki climbers have gone and organised themselves some of great indoor bouldering facilities to see them through the winter too. I really don't think its a coincidence that Finland has produced two of the best boulderers in the world from its very short climbing history! But anyway, we are getting off the original point here somewhat.

In reply to Andrew Kinnersley:

Andrew, I thought your reply was really interesting and I very much take your point BUT I would say that to certain degree what you see as "climbing" isn't really what I (as someone who has climbed pretty much weekly for 25 years) see as "climbing". That's not to say you are wrong in any way, but competition climbing on indoor walls (which obviously many youth climbing teams aim at) is almost like a different sport. In fact sport is in some ways the wrong word for what "my" climbing is. Hence many of us for whom climbing is very much linked to adventure and the great outdoors got into it via hiking, hillwalking and backpacking - via Scouts, DofE, that sort of thing. The aim was doing something adventurous in the great outdoors, not performance. For people coming into climbing now via indoor walls, even if they don't enter comps, trying to improve your performance is such an obvious thing.

On a side note, I've done teacher training this year and both the schools I did my training in had their own climbing walls in the sports hall. Staff had site-specific qualifications to instruct basic stuff on the walls and both schools had small but active climbing clubs. I thought this was really nice because kids who like your daughter didn't have family connections to climbing got the chance to try climbing and some were really getting into it. A teacher who has become a friend and regular climbing partner ran one of the clubs and he is now taking those kids in the minibus out to the Peak gritstone crags to have a go at climbing on "real rock". Maybe some of them will either start climbing on the good indoor walls in Sheffield and go that route to high performance and competitions, or have been bitten by the bug and when they get to uni join the uni club and get into Scottish winter climbing or alpine stuff and all the scary suffering stuff like I did many years ago!

In reply to TobyA:

"while Hobson Moor Quarry holds a special place in my heat"

I really, really hope this is a typo....

Access from big cities like Manchester depends on the type of work (or not) that you do... rush hour is the biggest problem. As a SE Peak guidebook editor living in Nottingham I often had almost an extra hour of driving to face if I left at evening rush hour, so had to beg, borrow and steal many sections of the standard working day for the crag checking, in return for lots of extra evening work... most working climbers are not lucky enough to be able to do that.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

The thin cracks there (E5 upwards) are easily as good as the cracks in the valley, which are considered world class

This is generally a sport and bouldering thread, since we are talking pure performance... so yes, dumby qualifies

In reply to Howard J:

Howard, fantastic response and tbh I agree with 99% of it. I wasn't trying to compare football with climbing other than its ease of access. In every single way it is different.

But climbing is also heading towards a more 'mainstream' feel. Our local bouldering wall is amazing. I find myself suggesting to all my friends with kids to try it because its so good. I don't think joe public realise how easy it is to get the kids started. Once this really kicks in with the 'fashionable' side of climbing I really think climbing is ready for an explosion.

Thanks for the great response

In reply to XXXX:

That's was part of my point. Imagine if a small percentage of these top athletes tried climbing at a young age. You would probably find your next Adam Ondra doing gymnastics at his local sports centre to a good standard but his god given gift is climbing. Unless he tries, its wasted.

In reply to TobyA:

Hi Toby,

Thanks for the reply. Sorry I was using the original post as reference when I mentioned climbing tbh. He referenced the indoor championships so I just went with that track.

In reply to Andrew Kinnersley:

I think (and hope) that we're going to see a lot more climbing sessions for kids of various ages over the next few years, as you say. And it'll be interesting to see how the side of climbing that's interested in hard sport / bouldering in general develops in the UK as well - I'd imagine that some level of coaching and awareness of "training" rather than just "going climbing" is going to become a lot more mainstream.

In terms of helping new people into the sport, I don't entirely agree with Howard - clubs (and climbers generally) are often willing to give people informal instruction all the way from their first indoor session to being independent trad leaders, but that instruction tends to be geared towards turning people into safe independent leaders rather than performance coaching them into hard sport climbers. It's also infinitely harder to work with kids for all the reasons that Howard outlined.

Also, I guess that there isn't much of a tradition of "giving something back" in terms of coaching kids partly because most people didn't "get much out" themselves! There's a long history of climbers figuring stuff out for themselves, often at a relatively late age, rather than getting loads of instruction and methodical training as kids, so it's maybe not something that many people would even think of to do. Not to mention the related fact that a lot of us would be very badly qualified to start handing out advice on hard sport climbing to a keen youth!

In reply to stp:

Totally agree. Its one thing for people to discuss opinions on here of which I seem to read about 30 different opinions for every question asked. But the consequences of giving bad advice while instructing or even just generally helping someone is 1000x the risk of me showing someone how to control a football with the outside of his right foot

My post wasn't to belittle climbers or the current methods of coaching. It was to highlight the eye opener I have had over the last 12-18mths which I am currently working around.

The regional training academies start for the BMC soon and then it will start to feel like we are doing loads of training and I may change my tune.

In reply to Ramblin dave:


Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. There is a strong tradition in climbing, both in clubs and outside them, of helping other climbers along with informal instruction and this still continues. The difficult area is dealing with the complete novice, and I think many climbers are cautious about trying to teach them from scratch, while clubs and their officers are particularly concerned about liability. There is also the point that many competent climbers don't always feel competent to teach others, let alone get into the more complex aspects of coaching and training, which many climbers have no interest in.

My club's policy, which I think many other clubs share, is to encourage newcomers to get some formal training to learn the basics. Once we know we can be reasonably confident in their ability to belay then they are very welcome. I also think this benefits the novice climber. I don't think we've lost any potential members because of it.

My real point is that it is not the role of climbing clubs to develop climbers to a high standard, and especially not for competitions, and besides they don't have the resources to do so. In this way they differ from clubs in other more formally competitive sports.

Climbing walls offer a far better opportunity, and are also better placed to deal with children.

In reply to TobyA:


I think that's a real shame. There are many different games that climbers play but to not recognise the similarities, even if we don't participate in these different games, is to have narrow view. The thrill of barely completing a difficult sequence of moves and then topping out on an indoor route in a local competition is not so different and no less real than completing the the last difficult pitch on a big wall just before a thunderstom hits.



I think improving performance in rock climbing is as normal as any other sport. That's why grades are so important. In one they serve as merely a guide but in another sense they are the equivalent of one's belt colour in martial arts, one's handicap in golf or one's fastest time in a marathon.

When we first go a new crag or climbing area, not knowing what to expect, finding one's way around, picking up the techniques of a new rock type it can certainly be a real adventure and that's great. But when you've been going to the same place many times over the years, as inevitably happens, that thrill of the new and unknown fades with familiarity. The adventure is kept alive by going on different routes and, when we're able, onto harder ones.

My first climbing experience was with the Scouts, top roping with hawser laid ropes, without harnesses and using a waist belays. Even back then the performance side of climbing was obvious. I remember deriving immense satisfaction from climbing a route graded 2b which I really had to fight my way up when I'd only managed a 2a before.

If performance is not important in your climbing and you enjoy it then that's great and that's all that matters. But I don't think that is typical. I also feel that to insinuate that other games climbers play are less worthy or even not real climbing is, to me, narrow minded, disrespectful and a bit patronising. I don't wish to be insulting and you're certainly not the only one on these forums with this attitude. But I'm just trying to be truthful as to how this comes across to me.

To me indoor walls are a godsend in a country with long winters and poor weather for much of the year. Realistically they are the only way young climbers are ever going to get to climb on a regular basis. It's also worth mentioning that one junior who did really well at indoor competitions as a youth is now in the UKC news for leading expedition to climb the massive Mirror Wall in Greenland. Very different games but very much part of the same continuum.

In reply to stp:


To be fair it is hard to see any real similarity between bouldering walls and Himalayan expeditions

In reply to GrahamD:

Interesting really as bouldering started as technical and fitness training with the end aim always being the greater ranges.

In reply to stp:

I think you are being rather over-sensitive or at least looking to be professionally outraged - Shocked! Shocked I tell you! I never said anything is less worthy, I just said that what climbing is to me is different to what it is to the other chap. He said himself he isn't a climber so his view of "climbing" came through a very specific and (in the UK at least) not so common a view. But I'm very happy that lots of different people enjoy climbing in different ways, it would be very squashed if we all wanted to do the same thing at the same time. I do just about all types of climbing (poorly) and see how all of them can be fun and rewarding, I just lack the attention span to do any one discipline that seriously, plus I like doing other outdoor sports as well so don't spend all my spare time climbing.

In reply to stp:

Sometimes I think people forget that (recreational) climbing is an entirely pointless activity - with that in mind I find it hard to judge any particular form of climbing inherently superior to any other, if both provide people with enjoyment...

In reply to TobyA:

On the flip side, It always amuses me how self righteous some people get about people walking up Snowdon being described as "climbers" in the press:- "theyr'e not real climbers..."

In reply to GrahamD:

I know what you mean, although I guess when those accidents turn out invariably to be walkers, those of us with mums who still worry about their little darlings going climbing, wish the Beeb wouldn't call them climbers!

In reply to TobyA:

By the same argument, there is a case to be made for not putting bouldering indoors (chances of dying 0.0...%) in the same general classification as climbing K2 (chances of dying - what ? 20% ).

Everyone seems to be sensitive to how the term real climbers is applied

In reply to ashtond6:



You mustn't have looked very hard.....Sydney has heaps although I wouldn't call it world class. And so nowhere in Europe has crags close to cities - really!!

In reply to stp:

European Youth Bouldering Championships -

Youth A - Aiden Roberts - 1st place!!!
Junior - Hamish Potokar - 2nd place!!
Youth B - Max Milne - 6th Place!

and delighted to report we got the same number of medals as Slovenia!

so whilst I will accept that we are not as competition climbing oriented as some countries, we are not too shabby, and we are trying to push on all the time.
results like this make all the time and effort put in by all the volunteers at every level worthwhile, so thanks to Aiden, Hamish, Max and all the other competitors for putting in the work necessary to achieve these results.

Ian Walton
chair, BMC comps comm)

In reply to Ian W:
Hi Ian,

Bet you are especially proud of Aiden

Ian was the first person me and my daughter met when visiting a climbing competition and was especially helpful all through last years BMC YCS competition. With people like him involved the number of kids climbing will grow and grow



Quick edit.....would love for lily to be up there competing at that level one day

In reply to stp:

I don't think the USA has anyone in either. It doesn't mean they don't have a great climbing scene, just different.


I think it helps to have lots of outdoor climbing close in style to the indoor comps, which the other European countries have. Our elite climbers divide the time between trad and sport, and obviously none of them want to focus exclusively on sport with a mind to doing indoor comps.

It is really a problem? I don't think so.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

>

Delaney Miller made it to the finals in Briancon

In reply to Ian W:

One thing we may be missing in the UK is more adult lead climbing comps. There are tons of bouldering comps which is more like sports like running where everyone will have a go in a local race.

Apart from the leading ladder there's pretty much no adult comp scene in sport climbing. For the kids getting brought up through YCS the only way to stay serious as a sport climber when they get too old for Youth comps and don't make the adult GB team is to go outside and chase grades.

I wonder if there's more of a national/regional/local competition scene for adult climbers in the countries that are doing best in the sport climbing comps. Obviously the logistics of a lead climbing comp are more difficult than a bouldering comp in that it is harder to get lots of people climbing at once and that will be part of the reason.

In reply to Andrew Kinnersley:
So would I......

keep at it; its a long road. But for very young kids, really top role models are available - Molly T-S, Aiden, Shauna C, etc etc etc
all the inspiration necessary.

And no more proud of Aiden than the others......he came up "off the radar" as far as our regional coaching group was concerned, and has really made his mark quickly. Its all down to his hard work.

In reply to Ian W:

Junior - Hamish Potokar - 2nd place!!
Youth B - Max Milne - 6th Place!


Thanks Ian and it's good to know the younger climbers are doing well. It will be interesting to see how they do when entering the senior comps.

One question does occur to me and I don't know the answer. That is when did we last get anyone through to the semis or even a final in senior lead World Cups?

In reply to TobyA:


Quite possibly and in which case I apologize. I think it wasn't so much your post on its own. I read it as yet another of these anti-sport climbing comments that are so prevalent on here and just over-reacted, at the wrong time it seems. So sorry about that.

In reply to stp:

It will be interesting; it is a completely different ball game; the top adults are al effectively full time pro's. Getting the work life balance is incredibly difficult if you have no income other than climbing; its a massive sacrifice in any sport like this without major history of a professional, tv backed organisation.

And as to the last GB climber to reach a semi or final; I think I know the answer, so lets see if anyone else knows. it at least gives me a chance to verify my suspicion......Don't forget, "we" once won the world cup.....

In reply to stp:

No worries. I was out sport climbing last Sunday at Horseshoe anyway, so like I say I dabble in all sorts of climbing (although the less said about my actual "performance" on the day the better!). I did though then make my mate come and follow me up a simultaneously polished and dirty VS at Stoney afterwards though, just to make sure I didn't sell my entire climbing soul to the hilti-wielding devil.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

It's a statistical impossibility that there 'aren't' death routes outside the UK.

Before anybody gets into the pedantry of looking into statistics, I just mean that there definitely are death routes outside of the UK, but can't remember them off the top of my head.

In reply to Timmd:

I once did a new route in Joshua Tree (Solo Dog, after my dog called 'Solo' and because I climbed it unroped after top-roping it) that had a likely groundfall from the crux. It was retrobolted later.

In reply to Ian W:
Molly made semis in Kranj, and Lucy Creamer made two world cup finals with 9th being her best result in 2003.

I don't recall anyone else, I suspect we've had a man through to the semi-finals at least once though? (in last ten years)

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Ed Hamer's famous second, although I think Ian's after Seniors?

In reply to winhill:

Yep that was juniors

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Yep, I had Lucy down as most recent finalist.