UKC

Wyndcliff Quarry

What with all the recent bolting activity at Wyndcliffe Quarry, just thought I'd post a reminder that it is a mixed trad/sport crag; therefore, before installing any bolts, please ensure that your project will not affect neighbouring climbs. I was at the Quarry the other day and spotted a new line of bolts just right of Shadows Run Black. It was only a very quick look as I was leaving, but I suspect the trad line may have been compromised. I'll have a closer look, maybe reclimb the line, and report back.

In reply to bpmclimb:

Can't see the bolt line claimed as a route on here, or the CC page. Perhaps I missed something. Does anyone know what it it is?

In reply to bpmclimb:

I don't think there is a new line; Shadows Run Black itself has been bolted.

In reply to Ian Parsons:

Ah, ok, thanks. I guess probably bolted by Gordon Jenkin (who did the FA in 1991). Needs a sport grade then. Probably 6b or thereabouts.

In reply to bpmclimb:

Theres no stopping Gordo............

In reply to bpmclimb:

Personally I'll be disappointed if any more of the "trad" routes at Wyndcliffe Quarry get bolted. I go there very frequently each winter to soak up the sun and to me, the trad routes have a nice character of their own.

Shadows run black already had a bolt in it, so I suppose I can't really complain, but the none/minimally bolted routes also get done very frequently and quality wise are the equal of their bolted neighbours.

In reply to TXG:

I agree. So far the recent sport additions are welcome, but I think SRB was more interesting as a trad(ish) route, so I'm a bit sorry to see it bolted into submission.

In reply to bpmclimb:

Speaking as as an out and out trad head who sport climbs as well I don't have any problems with this. I don't like routes that can't make their mind up if they are sport or trad especially when the route in question must only be about 8 metres long and already had a bolt. I have some sympathy for new climbers who are struggling to find easy sport so I see this as a welcome addition and no great loss to the trad world. If it did not have a bolt to start with I might have thought differently. I've done it, it was essentially a sport route to start with so why not make it a proper one.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:


Howabout Highway One at Portishead?

In reply to Urgles:

I didn't agree with bolting the final groove and was shocked to see the bolts on returning there after a long absence. Highway One had 2 bolts, fairly dodgy bolts I might add, where there was no other pro. Even so it "felt" like a trad climb and was long enough to re-enforce that feeling. It was also on an established trad crag. The route at Wyndcliffe is a bit of a one move wonder on what is, in the main a very minor sport crag that offers very short routes. It doesn't deserve comparison with Highway One IMO.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:



Hello Al - It might be a very minor crag to you, but it matters quite a lot to me. Judging by the happy faces and excited talk I hear most weekends of the winter lots of other people have similar feelings.

I understand that your bolting was altruistic and came from a good place, but your last two posts give the impression that you bolted the route because it and the crag it's on weren't worth much. You're entitled to your opinion, but many of us would disagree with it.

You can't be anti-bolt and climb at WQ, but from what I've seen plenty of people enjoy the balance of fixed protection as it is/was.

Tom

In reply to GridNorth:

I agree Al.


Any idea who added the extra bolts?

In reply to TXG:

I've never placed a bolt in my life so I have no idea what you are talking about.

The route in question already felt like a sport climb, because it was short and already had one or two bolts in roughly 8 metres. Highway One, in contrast, had two bolts in 42 metres and was a South West 3 star classic that felt like a trad route so hardly stands up to comparison with this route.

Very short, quarried limestone is by any standards minor. If you think it is not you really should get out more.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

Hi Al - Apologies. I read your "I've done it" as "I've bolted it".

As for me getting out more, I can't help but agree. I've climbed across the world in the last 20 years, but sometimes circumstances prevent you from going a long way from home or out for more than a few hours. This is why short, technical crags like WQ are valuable. It also flash dries, and is nice and warm through the winter which adds to its importance. I like my convenience climbing to have a few little runouts, and a few wires thrown in for variety. WQ does this well I think.

I can see that you don't rate the crag, and that I do. Different strokes I suppose.

Enjoy your climbing.

Tom

In reply to bpmclimb:

'. . . just thought I'd post a reminder that it is a mixed trad/sport crag; therefore, before installing any bolts, please ensure that your project will not affect neighbouring climbs.'

Once upon a time maybe. It's now a sports crag by default and consequently it's very popular. I think some of the old guard will just have to agree to surrender the quarry to the next generation and accept it as a sports crag.
Mark

In reply to Mark Storey:

Whilst I can't get worked up about an 8 metre pseudo trad route which already has one or two bolts in it I might have a different opinion if someone were to bolt Bogger Bob say.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

I still cant work out where that route finishes though?

So is highway one a full sport route now? I was down there the other day and it looked like it was fully bolted and you only needed a rack of draws?

....it seems even more esoteric that it doesnt have a bolted lower off now

In reply to GridNorth:

Al Its a good job you said it 'was a classic' as I don't know when you last did Highway One but classic it currently is not. We dropped in their a couple of weeks back on the way down to Sharpnose. I knew of Highway One and it seemed pretty good from the description, with bolts on the crux (not advocating bolts but if they are there then not going to argue), and at my target grade.

I got on it to discover it is all bolted apart from the first 7m - why not put the last one in at this point - and the loosest thing I have been on in ages. Every hold either came off, or was about too, and I climb plenty of loose stuff (Masson isn't the most solid place but at least it is glued together). Endless scabs of rock came off when you touched them, and then when it got to the undercuts, eek! Every flake flexed alarmingly and my mate took a big whipper when he pulled off a hand sized piece. Many of the holds are 'fresh' i.e as a result of recent rockfall/pull offs. The belayer was forced to scurry for cover until the leader was well off to the right, then just listen to the rubble dropping into the gully. As a set of moves its good, as a route it is currently grim. Maybe it hasn't been getting much traffic or maybe hard winters have brought a softer rock to the surface.

In reply to Kemics:

There is an elderly lone bolt over the top. We backed it up for the first one down, and prayed for the second!

In reply to philhilo:

The surface "skin" was always a bit suspect but there was never anything seriously loose on it and it used to be an excellent climb. If it's getting like that perhaps the bolts are justified now. I couldn't possibly comment, it was OK when I did it.

In reply to philhilo:

Welcome to Somerset

In reply to GridNorth:

Thing is I've never seen anyone there climbing the 'trad' stuff.

If you compare WQ to Wyndcliffe proper, then in many ways it's a reflection of the direction UK climbing is heading. Nobody climbs at Wyndcliffe main cliff any more. (That's based on an exhaustive survey of two visits to the main cliff, where we were the only climbers on the entire crag).

M

In reply to Mark Storey:
At Wyndcliffe quarry the decent trad routes like Canine Crack and Bogger Bob do get climbed, not as often as the sport routes, but you do see people on them and it would be a shame to bolt them. Up at the main crag, most of the times I've been up there there have been other climbers about, so although not as popular as Shorncliff or Wintours, it is visited, just not so much on the days you were there. I'll add that some of the new bolted routes at the quarry are quite nice although there is some loose rock, as you'd expect.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

Nothing pisses me off more than bolted crack lines.

In reply to Mark Storey:

Well I regularly climb the trad routes, and so do other climbers that I know. Some are quite good: Canine Crack and Bogger Bob have already been mentioned; there are various other nice little trad challenges.

Your attempt to define WQ as "sport by default" isn't, as far as I know, backed up by any formally agreed crag status (with the BMC, CC, or elsewhere), so is essentially meaningless. The reality is that the crag, like many others in the area, is mixed ethic.

My opinion is that at a mixed ethic crag, the existing trad lines should stay that way by default, unless a strong consensus emerges (via BMC meets) to bolt them, and the FA has been duly consulted. This opinion is, I believe, shared by many, and is in line with BMC policy.

In reply to Mark Storey:

Nobody climbs at Wyndcliffe main cliff any more.

Another completely untrue statement, to complement your one about WQ crag status. I climb at Wynd Cliff very regularly, and almost always see other climbers there. If that's too anecdotal for you, check out the UKC logbooks.

In reply to
Nobody climbs at Wyndcliffe main cliff any more

If that's the case it would be a real shame - I used to climb there a lot when I lived in the South West, before WQ was bolted, and despite the odd looseness it was one of my favourite crags. Great for VS - E2 routes, remember Suncrush and Cadillac being particularly good

In reply:

As it happens, I climbed at Wynd Cliff yesterday. I climbed Cadillac (VS), Suncrush (HVS) and Elan (E3). As a matter of interest, I just checked the logbooks for numbers of ascents of those three routes so far this year: Cadillac 12, Suncrush 12, Elan 4. That seems to me a healthy number of ascents for a 6 month period. I daresay other routes (e.g. Questor) have been climbed at least that often.

In reply to Mark Storey:
Wyndcliff was never exactly popular. I climbed there throughout the 90's and rarely saw other climbers although the routes saw enough traffic to stay clean.
The quarry was, of course, never climbed on then: nobody was that desperate.

In reply to bpmclimb:


Sorry, I should have said 'hardly' - and I did say that was based on an 'exhaustive survey' . . .of two visits!


I'm not talking about some BMC/CC approved status either, merely pointing out it is a sports crag by default, as those are the routes at WQ that seem to get climbed the most.
As I suggested in the beginning WQ is a good example of the changing nature of climbing.
M

In reply to Mark Storey:

Just to clarify: bolting policy is nothing to do with the CC, although its guidebooks generally (and certainly here) support BMC policy.

The BMC policy for the Wye Valley, worked out over several dedicated SW Area and other specially dedicated meetings, is clearly set out on page 23 of the Lower Wye Valley guide.

John

In reply to Mark Storey:




and society in general.

Convenience over adventure.

In reply to bpmclimb:

I climbed there a few weeks ago, Questor in fact. Which was a cracking route, excuse the pun!

There was also another team there enjoying it as much as we did. I like both w/m as much as w/q. Its actually really nice to be able to do some trad if we go as a group as I tend to get a bit bored if we just climb the sport lines. They seem to compliment each other well! Its also worth pointing out that many climbers don't log their climbs on here.

Trad is what makes British climbing so good and the day it disappears is the day I will stop climbing. I really hope that never happens!

In reply to bpmclimb:

Does anyone know of any online topos for the new routes? I'd love to join this inspiring generation of convenience climbers.

In reply to The Ivanator:

No tops yet AFAIK. I have checked descriptions and positioning on here, though - so they shouldn't be too hard to find. And once you locate the start, of course, simply follow the metalwork

In reply to The Ivanator:

Who needs topos for sport climbs? The lines are on the rock, theyre called bolts

In reply to Mark Storey:


No it's not! Your phrasing makes it sound like some kind of established status. I'm being picky because that form of words could give the impression that, by default, retro-bolting of trad routes is ok at WQ - which it most definitely is not. If you mean "the sports climbs at WQ seem to me to be climbed more often than the trad lines" why not say just that? I doubt anyone would disagree, because of course they are - short sports climbs are convenient and very quick, and need relatively little gear.

In reply to bpmclimb:
Just to follow through on those numbers, in case anyone's interested: Questor has had 48 UKC logged ascents this year alone, which (assuming that's a representative sample) makes it the most popular VS in the whole of the Wye Valley. It easily outnumbers the popular VS at Symonds Yat (Whitt, The Druid), at Shorncliff (War of the Worlds, Alta Vista, Hydraulic Jump), at Wintour's (Butterfly, Swallow's Nest, Freedom). The only trad VS having more logged ascents on UKC is Nibelheim.

It also appears that none of the Wyndcliffe Quarry sport climbs achieve that number of ascents - most not even close - despite being short, roadside and bolted. So much for trad being on the way out!

In reply to bpmclimb:


Sorry I don't agree. Most climbers seem to treat it as a sports crag, regardless of it's status in the guide book/BMC agreement/bolting policy or whatever, so by default it's a sports crag as far as I'm concerned.

>If you mean "the sports climbs at WQ seem to me to be climbed more often than the trad lines" why not say just that?<

Because it's a broader discussion here. I'm looking at the changing nature of climbing in the UK and simply pointing out that WQ is a good example of that change, regardless of how many trad climbs are logged for the main cliff.

M

In reply to bpmclimb:

'It also appears that none of the Wyndcliffe Quarry sport climbs achieve that number of ascents - most not even close - despite being short, roadside and bolted. So much for trad being on the way out!'

I suspect that has more to do with sports climbers not logging their ascents, where as those VS routes you list are very much 'rights of passage' for anyone climbing in the Valley.
As for trad being on the way out - well it's certainly having a dip. I can remember when Wintours leap would be full of climbers and queues for Zelda and Greta were not uncommon. Last Wednesday evening there were only two climbers on North wall that I could see.

M

In reply to Mark Storey:



What is a Wednesday last time?

In reply to Mark Storey:

Wasn't the weather (or at least the forecast) rather crap last Wednesday - I went indoors instead of outside (which would only have been because of that)?

In reply to Mark Storey:



Well as far as I can see, you've decided in advance the "truth" of the matter, and assume certain things to be "facts". If any actual statistics seem to contradict your "truths" you come up with a reason for that (apparently) based on pure guesswork (sport climbers don't log ascents as much - an assumption based more on convenience for your argument than on any demonstrable fact). One can support any proposition at all, however far-fetched, using such a process. Hypothetically, if I came up with figures showing 10 times as many logged ascents of trad climbs as sport climbs at the Quarry, I suspect you'd still come up with a reason why that didn't prove you wrong.

The UKC logbooks clearly show that there are trad routes at WQ that people regularly climb. They may not quite achieve the numbers for the more popular sport outings (no surprise there), but there are several short VS routes which have significant numbers of logged ascents, in addition to better-known climbs like Canine Crack. The climbers doing these routes do not appear to be older, on average, than those doing the sport climbs - so much for the nonsense about the "old guard".

In my opinion your assessments of climbing in the Wye Valley are way off the mark ("no one climbs at Wynd Cliff crag anymore, amended to "hardly ever" - both wildly inaccurate statements), and your assessments of trends in climbing in general are ill-founded and prejudiced (i.e. the "old guard" having to step aside and accept the new state of affairs at WQ).

Anyway, it doesn't appear that we're going to agree, so I don't really want to spend any more time refuting your arguments. Let's just agree to differ.

In reply to Mark Storey:

You may wish to update your profile otherwise we may think you have confused ' sport' with toproping.

PS. Crowds went wild. Trad lead. Top rope. Who cares.

In reply to bpmclimb:

My opinions are based on anecdotal evidence, I'll grant you, but they are as valid as any attempt by you to use the UKC log books as 'proof' of the popularity of trad climbing in the Valley. I hardly ever log my climbs on UKC and I know many others who don't bother.

BTW I'm one of the old guard and since I've been climbing in the Valley (15+ years) there has been a noticeable decline in the number of climbers on the crags, with WQ the only crag that seems to have an increase in numbers - and those climbers are mostly climbing the sports routes. Hence as I originally stated WQ is a sports crag by default.

Where do I suggest the 'old guard have to step aside'. I'm just commenting on how things at WQ are a reflection of the changing trends in climbing - in my opinion.

And it's not a 'prejudiced' opinion, just a point of view based on my visits to the crags in the Valley over the years.

M

In reply to The Shelf Puffin:

That's because:

I'm crap.
I was injured.
I don't log my climbs that often.
I'm honest.
M

In reply to Mark Storey:
It's just about fair enough the trad climbs that don't rely on bolts stay in their current form and don't get effected by bolts close enough to clip easily from them. However the trad climbs which have the odd bolt should just be sport routes IMO and even if not who cares if there is a bolt too close to some of those partially bolted routes, they are already partially bolted!

In reply to CurlyStevo:
I quite liked that 'Still Stuck on You' at WQ is a trad/sport hybrid. As someone who mostly boulders/sport climbs, it was quite fun putting a bit of gear in, but knowing that the bolts above would hold if your gear was crap.

I've 'soloed' to the first bolt on subsequent repeats but there's not many 5+ sport routes that are memorable (I even remembered the name from 4 years ago but that's mainly because of its conglomerate nature)

In reply to Mark Storey:


Well, to quote you directly: "I think some of the old guard will just have to agree to surrender the quarry to the next generation and accept it as a sports crag." I was paraphrasing, but I thought I got the gist of it. Perhaps not.

I genuinely think this decline you talk about is non-existent. I've also climbed extensively in the Wye Valley for many years, and (speaking subjectively, anecdotally) I see a marked increase in traffic at various crags, particularly at Wynd Cliff and Shorncliff. I would, however, concede that preferences have probably swung somewhat from multi-pitch to single pitch, with a slight reduction in numbers at the bigger cliffs at Wintour's. The UKC logbooks back this up strongly, and, while they don't provide absolute proof, they are numerous enough to be a good indicator of trends. I also know climbers who don't log climbs, but I don't see how you can assume that sport climbers log routes less than trad climbers (please don't make me scroll back and find where you said that). There's no evidence whatever for that, and it could equally well be the other way round.

When a crag has mixed ethic status with the BMC, and there's also clear evidence of the trad climbs being climbed regularly, then as far as I'm concerned there's no basis for calling it a "sports crag by default". However, you seem strangely attached to the phrase, and keep repeating it, but it's not at all clear what you mean by it, exactly. If you called it dildo cornflakes it would be hardly any less illuminating of climbing at the crag. But hey, you're free, of course, to call it what you like ……….

In reply to bpmclimb:

….. I was just trying to think of a random ridiculous phrase, but on reflection, dildo cornflakes describes the climbing at WQ pretty well

In reply to bpmclimb:

Hi Brian

Just resurrecting this thread to float a suggestion, to see what people think. I've always thought Still Stuck on You would be a much better route (and still HVS) with no bolts at all below the lower-off. It's got sufficient (IMO) gear on that upper wall (dubious thread in the concretion, a good though not obvious wire placement and then a cam in the final break). In general I think the minimally bolted "trad" routes are less satisfying than the pure trad routes, and I don't have a problem with Gordon retroing his own route in Shadows Run Black, as that already had a bolt and virtually no natural gear as far as I know. I guess the effect of de-bolting would be that less people would do it (it wouldn't be accessible to anyone with no trad gear but a really long clipstick!) but I reckon it would be a more satisfying experience for those that do.

Any thoughts?

Rick

In reply to Rick Sewards:

I never thought of debolting the upper half of that route, but if the gear is available, and given that you have to carry trad gear for the lower bit anyway, it would seem to make sense. It was never altogether satisfactory as a hybrid IMO.

However, I suspect Gordon (the FA) would either leave it as it is or whack a couple of bolts in the first half. I could be wrong, though

In reply to bpmclimb:

Hi Brian, Rick, Al, John, Henry and others I don't know on the thread.
Until recently ish (couple of years ago) I regularly climbed at WQ and I have also climbed at WC main.

Mark I think you are wrong to declare anything, such as it is a de facto sport crag. Who do you think you are to fly in the face on collective opinion canvases at BMC meetings. There is a clear policy for the Lower Wye regarding sports routes, mixed crags and retro bolting. Adding new bolts to existing routes contravenes the local policy/agreements.
I for one like the little trad routes even with the odd bolt in and I think that Little Plum (is that what it is called? Top left) probably gets lots of ascents.

My anecdotal evidence of climbing there over the past 5 years is more trad than sport although I have enjoyed both I have seen as many on each.

In reply to Rick Sewards:

Rick, doesn't Still Stuck on You share a bolt with One Tooth Short of a Smile? Like Brian, it's not really something I've ever considered... it's not the greatest trad route as it stands, and I don't think the bolt adds much to it. I wouldn't object to it being debolted - as long as it doesn't affect the routes to the left.

In reply to puppythedog:

Well said, James. Quite right.

Can I draw everyone's attention to page 23 in the LW guide, the final bullet point as much as any.

The policy as set out there is not an 'edict' of the BMC, but an expression of hard won consensus over a number of years and many open meetings. Once you start tampering with it (without going through the agreed procedures), others will assume the right to do the same. The loser is the rock.

In reply to puppythedog:

'Mark I think you are wrong to declare anything, such as it is a de facto sport crag. Who do you think you are to fly in the face on collective opinion canvases at BMC meetings'

Hang on there. I never declared it was a sports crag, I simply said it's treated like a sports crag by the majority of climbers I see there.

That's all.

Mark

In reply to Mark Storey:


No, that's not what you "simply said". You are now paraphrasing yourself, and (rather sneakily, I might add) watering down your rhetoric in the process. What you said, repeatedly, is that WQ is now a "sports crag by default". That has a completely different ring to it.

In reply to Mark Storey:
What Brian said. Although I am glad you are now not saying it IS a sport crag.

In reply to Mark Storey:


FWIW that's what I took your statement to mean.

In my experience (which is confined to Yorkshire), mixed trad/sport crags have a tendency to become pure sport crags over time. I hope it turns out differently in the SW.