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Blue Ice Choucas Harness - Buckle Releasing Under Load

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One of our customers has contacted us to say that if dangling from the belay loop (eg when abseiling) in a Blue Ice Choucas Harness and the belay loop ends up to the left of the buckle (not difficult), if you then twist your body when your weight is on the system the buckle releases. He discovered this whilst doing a crevasses rescue course with Jagged Globe in the alps, which must have been frightening.

We have replicated the situation in the shop and have emailed both Blue Ice and Beyond Hope who import Blue Ice into the UK.

We will be contacting directly anyone who has bought this harness via our website. This post is to warn other owners of this harness and other retailers of this harness of a potential problem.
 Gael Force 25 Jul 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

It's seemingly well known it can do that there was thread in Oct 2012about it, here;s what the designer said then,

In reply to muFF1n:

Are the following direct quotes from the company concerned? Or you interpretation of their position? Because if that's there stated position it's a bit worrying.

> 1.) they cannot reproduce the behavior

It's interesting that this comes first, as that seems to lead to what I think would have do be called the dismissive following points.

> 2.) the harness is designed for professionals

Well at least one shop in the UK has them for sale, I can't imagine Peglers refusing to sell them to people who aren't "professionals". Does it strike anyone else as total bollocks? Professional what exactly anyway? Mountain guides? Indoor climbing wall instructors? Doctors? Lawyers?

> 3.) the user should pay attention when wearing it in order to avoid possible usage errors

Compare that to the Wild Country recall where they say that the problem with Ropeman 3 is clearly only in very specific and probably rare circumstances but "Nevertheless we recognize that there may well be scenarios particularly in difficult conditions such as poor weather, extreme fatigue or during the course of an accident where the Ropeman 3 may not in our opinion be fully relied upon to meet the reasonable expectations of the user." http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/community/latest-news/2012/10/29/Voluntary_Rec...

> 4.)they updated the buckle with a new design for the 2013 collection that they introduced at the Friedrichshafen Outdoor show last July.

If to them there ISN'T a problem with the original design, what's the relevance of this?

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giovanni.blueice on 30 Oct 2012
I am the designer of the Choucas Harness and I would like to clarify our reply to muFF1n. Here is the quote of the original message:

“Hi Lukas,

We looked into the issue you point out in your message. Below you will find our conclusions.

We have made specific tests on the harness and we were never able to make the buckle turn by itself when the harness is properly tighten and worn. We have also asked our ambassadors and none of them observed this behavior in more than two years of usage.

This harness and buckle were designed for use by professionals who must wear the harness with gloves and, like other harnesses, it requires attention when wearing it and closing the buckle. Because of the success of the product and to avoid all possible usage errors, we updated the buckle with a new design for the 2013 collection that we introduced at the Friedrichshafen Outdoor show last July.

Finally, I would like to assure you that APAVE Sudeurope certifies that the harness conforms the CE norms and that we are audited on a yearly basis to ensure that our manufacturing procedures responds to the required safety standards.

If you have any further question, please don’t hesitate to contact us directly.

Best regards,

Giovannibattista Rossi”

I would like to explain this further:

The buckle used on the harness, known in French as a “boucle rapco” is a well-known design and it is used on a variety of safety equipment, including the Mammut Alpine Light harness. This buckle can be closed and adjusted easily when wearing gloves and it is what our customers demanded when we designed the harness. Because of the success of the Choucas, for our upcoming version we decided to sacrifice some usability in favor of a more error proof design: the “rapco” buckle must be inserted in the right way when wearing the harness and the webbing must be flat and without twists (see the third paragraph of the section “Putting on the harness” in the instructions booklet). We have been using and testing the Choucas Harness for more than two years and we have never observed the buckle rotating on itself when it is closed correctly and with the harness properly worn and tighten.

If you have any further questions, please don’t hesitate to contact us directly at info@blueice.com.
In reply to Gael Force:

I wasn't aware of earlier issues but seeing as to how easy it is to replicate it I am surprised that they could not. I don't think that the issue is with the buckle per se but with the fact that it is possible for the belay loop to exert pressure on the left side of the buckle which is enough to cause it to release and the fact that due to the design the buckle and belay loop are very close together.

We have put a film on You tube of this happening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4kG5ba5sTI&feature=youtu.be
 FreshSlate 25 Jul 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

Thanks stephen. I don't have this harness but that looks scary.

Judging from their response last time I think I'll be giving blue ice a miss.
 john arran 25 Jul 2015
In reply to FreshSlate:

Sounds like a carefully worded get-out: "we were never able to make the buckle turn by itself when the harness is properly tighten and worn", allowing for the fact that they may be very aware of the problem when the belay loop isn't aligned well. It's impossible to tell from the video how easy it is to misalign it like that.

I've never had any Blue Ice gear but with this kind of squirmy customer service response I'm unlikely to be getting any soon.
 BStar 25 Jul 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
The original October 2012 problem was with a different buckle design, not the rethreaded (current) design. The old buckle was two rectangles, one placed inside the other and twists to lock... This was found I untwist and open. I recently purchased this harness when I found the buckle had changed and it now appeared safe although this new problem doesn't look good. I've sat in my harness and had no problem with it creeping through.
Post edited at 11:28
In reply to BStar:
> I've sat in my harness and had no problem with it creeping through.

Try sitting in it with the belay loop on the left of the buckle then twisting your body to the right.

 BStar 25 Jul 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

I'll try this on Sunday night as I'm away at the moment.

Thanks for the information
 BStar 25 Jul 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

I presume that if you get a response from Blue Ice you will post information on here?
 goose299 25 Jul 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

Interesting to see what thy say about this.
Watched the vid, scary!
 JIMBO 25 Jul 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

I just tried this at home and took about 3 seconds to replicate! Thanks for the heads up...
 GridNorth 25 Jul 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

This is when you really appreciate UKC.

Al
1
 woollardjt 26 Jul 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

Is this video the newer version of the harness or not?

I have the revamped one with the different buckle design and not had a problem. But I shall see if I can replicate it
 woollardjt 26 Jul 2015
In reply to woollardjt:
As I said in the previous post I have the newer version of the harness, I've been trying to replicate this for the past 3/4 hr I have only managed to do something similar once and that was when I put the harness on but didn't tighten it up (so already far too loose). The rest of the time the harness stayed put, even if I put the belay loop under the clamp to try to release it. I shall keep trying and will update, but would still like to know what blue ice say. I was under the impression it only affected the first generation with the original buckle

Cheers james


Ok managed to get the buckle to release twice now, once with the harness fitted far to loose and once with it correctly fitted but i was putting all my weight and pushing against the buckle, I've still yet to achieve what they show in the video. I've tried partially weighting the harness and fully weighting it.

I only bought it for ski touring and use a super couloir for all my climbing
Post edited at 11:21
 JSTaylor 26 Jul 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
I have what I understand to be the current version of this harness. Have used it without any problems. Was unable to replicate the problem highlighted in the video with the harness properly adjusted. In my experience, an excellent lightweight harness.
Post edited at 14:14
 BStar 26 Jul 2015
I've had a go myself this evening with the new version of the harness. I managed to get it to come loose once, but nowhere near as easy in the video. I guess it might depend on body size / harness size as to where the buckle is likely to sit, for me I had to be in a very uncomfortable position, almost laying on my side to get it to start to slide through.

I will still be using the harness for my alps trip but it is good to know that this can happen if the belay look goes over that way.
 woollardjt 26 Jul 2015
In reply to BStar:

I have been trying most of the day and still it has only happened twice as described in my earlier post, when fitted properly it took a lot of effort to force it to come loose and as described by BStar it may depend on how it fits you,

I'd be interested to know which version they show in the needlesports video
 Jayhigh 26 Jul 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
Stephen - thank you.

I bought this harness very recently (albeit from another independent retailer with excellent service, cough, Dick's).

Hanging in the (new version) harness it seems solid unless the belay loop is directly under the buckle (something which would be impossible to prevent as you wear it) when it slides open very quickly... very worrying.
Post edited at 19:41
 woollardjt 26 Jul 2015
In reply to Jayhigh:

When I hung in the harness and pushed the belay loop directly under the buckle it still wouldn't budge no matter how much bouncing or shifting of position, to get the buckle to release I had to force the loop under the buckle and push the buckle up and away with my hand.

I suppose you could put a tube of fabric such as neoprene over the buckle which would prevent the situation you've described.

I'll keep hanging in the harness tomorrow and see if I can get the harness to come undone
 FreshSlate 27 Jul 2015
In reply to woollardjt:

Perhaps yours isn't affected? Although it does sound like a design fault rather than a QC issue.
In reply to all enquiring about the buckle:

The buckle on all our stock of Choucas Harnesses is as per the photos on our website at: http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Harnesses/Alp...

As far as we are aware this is the current version.
 woollardjt 27 Jul 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

Thanks for clarifying that Stephen, mine is the same as that but I'm still unable to replicate what happens in your video, I have also contacted blue ice directly as that is where I bought mine. If I have any response I'll post it here.

James
 daWalt 27 Jul 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

thanks for the info,
however I find your description of the mechanism a bit confusing.

From trying this out (late) last night, and without a proper hanging setup:
It’s got nothing to do with the Belay Loop being to the left of the buckle. (as far as I can see in the vid, the buckle pops back through the loop just before the test person rotates their body)
As far as we can make out;
A leftward pull on the belay loop, enough to cause the loop to slide to, and pull past, the buckle (right to left) can cause it to pinch and lift the buckle. This lifts front tab of the buckle, same as you would if you were loosening it by hand.......
As a side note, the legloop retainer seems to affect how easily this happens; it can get in the way and prevent the loop pinching or getting underneath the buckle (rough description, we didn’t spend too long looking at this)

I don't want to sound overly critical or ungrateful; I just hoped this might help understand how this can happen.
feel free to counter this with a better analysis.

cheers,
Walt.
In reply to daWalt:

Quite possibly, but it seemed to us that the belay loop needed to start to the left of the buckle and end up to the right of it, by which time the waist belt had released.
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

Just to let everyone know, we have had an email from Blue Ice requesting more information - we have told them what we can.

We have sent one of each size harness to the BMC Technical Committee.

When we hear anything significant we will post it on here.
 gd303uk 27 Jul 2015
In reply to daWalt:
it does look like the front of the belay loop lifts the buckle and then is the pivot from where the belay loop moves back when the body twists releasing the belt,



Post edited at 15:48
giovanni.blueice 29 Jul 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

After we were contacted last week about this incident, we immediately reacted and asked the person for more information, but we weren’t given any specific details. Stephen Reid from Needle Sports was kind enough to make a video with a reconstruction of what presumably happened.

The problem is not directly related to lack of friction: every batch of about 200 harnesses produced, we test one harnesses with a 15 kN force for three minutes as described by the norm for mountaineering harnesses (EN 12277) and the webbing slides for no more than 5 mm (the norm allows for a maximum of 20 mm; we use a standard dummy in a certified lab to do this test). The problem happens when the belay loop (or the rope) interact with the buckle flipping it outwards due to wearing a harness that is oversized.

I want to be very clear that we take your information very seriously and that I already contacted both the APAVE (the certifying body that verifies our quality system for harnesses and physically tests our harnesses once a year) and the ENSA (Ecole Nationale de Ski et d’Alpinisme which tests at least one harness of every batch we manufacture according to the norm for mountaineering harnesses) on this matter.

APAVE already answered this morning excluding that the harness does not respond to the norm, but recommending we ask an opinion from an independent expert regarding the possibility of a dangerous scenario not taken into account by the norm. I was supposed to meet the director of the ENSA laboratory this morning, but the meeting was delayed to this afternoon; as soon as we reach a conclusion, I will post more details on this forum. Neither him or APAVE seemed alarmed by the incident. Remember that the safety buckle must always be a few centimeters to the left (when regarding your own harness from the top) of the belay loop or knot; if this is not the case, most likely it is because the harness is too large.

There has been discussion about threading the tale of the webbing back in the safety buckle. This seems to prevent the accidental slippage, however I cannot recommend this solution until we fully test it in the lab under load and it cannot be used in any case as an excuse to wear an oversized harness.

If you have any further question, please don’t hesitate to contact us at info@blueice.com. We are doing all we can to give you an answer in the coming days.

Giovanni Rossi – Blue Ice
1
In reply to giovanni.blueice:

I am very pleased to see this reply from Blue Ice. I have pointed out to them that although they emphasise that the harness must be the correct size for the user they do not actually issue any sizing guidelines either on their website or on the instructions that come with the harness - hopefully this will be remedied in future. The problem seems to be caused by the belay loop or tied in rope ending up to the left of the buckle and then being dragged to the right of the buckle by the force of a fall (or simulated fall). This is sufficient to release the buckle slightly and allow some or all of the tail of the waist belt to pass through it. Obviously the further left that the buckle is the less likely it is that one of these loops will end up to the left of it in the first place, hence the emphasis on wearing the correct size, but unfortunately it could still happen, especially in a violent fall into a crevasse.

We hope that Blue Ice manage to resolve this problem satisfactorily and we have every intention of stocking this harness again when they do.
Personally, I have heard nothing back from Blue Ice or from Beyond Hope. We sent harnesses to the BMC for testing and they also managed to get the buckle to slip. However, one of our customer's has received the following email from Blue Ice:

A customer recently contacted us after running into a problem with the Choucas Harness. We take this information very seriously and we immediately contacted both the APAVE (the independent company that certifies our harnesses to be conform the norm 12277 form mountaineering harnesses) and the ENSA (Ecole Nationale de Ski et d'Alpinisme which tests at least one harness of every batch we manufacture) on this matter. No one sounded alarmed and both institutions agreed that the harness fully respond to the norm.

We spent two days running a series of tests with an independent expert from the ENSA laboratory in Chamonix. We concluded that the webbing could slide in the buckle only if the following conditions are met simultaneously:
-The harness is oversized and the buckle is placed under the belay loop or the rope,
-The webbing is loose in the buckle and there is no tension in the belt,
-The user must pull gently on the belay loop or the rope perpendicularly to the buckle and purposely keep pulling sidewise.

Following this observation, we run a series free fall tests not required by the norm. For these tests, we choose the most unfavorable scenarios:
-A possible sidewise falls,
-With the tying in point positioned (and secured) on the safety buckle.

In both scenarios, the webbing never slid in the buckle proving that an accidental slippage of the webbing cannot happen during a fall even when the most unfavorable conditions are met (the direction of the force cannot be maintained perpendicular to the buckle during a fall).

Finally, we tested both the strength of the webbing tale and a fall with the harness opened to its maximum. We observed that:
-The webbing tale does not come off the buckle and that the system withstand the force required by the norm,
-Even with the harness fully opened and the dummy turning upside down during the fall, the dummy never escaped from the harness.

We concluded that a properly sized and tighten Choucas Harness is safe to use for climbing.

We invite all of our customers to test the harness in a safe environment to double check its size and the correct tension of the belt (when worn, the safety buckle should not be underneath the belay loop and the best should be under tensions). We are currently preparing an additional note with additional sizing information that will be distributed shortly to our clients. Please note that in some cases, even the smallest size might not fit you. If you have any question or if the product does not satisfy you, please email us to find a solution that fully responds to your needs.

1
 beardy mike 05 Aug 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

Or the could just put an old school double back buckle on their harness and it would slip under no circumstances what so ever and be lighter. How busy are you that you need to save that extra 20 seconds it might take? Speed buckles. Fricking nightmare...
 BStar 05 Aug 2015
In reply to beardy mike:

It is a double back buckle, that is not the issue here...
 beardy mike 05 Aug 2015
In reply to BStar:
So you thread the buckle like an old style buckle? How does it quick release then?

I'm talking about this:

http://adrenalineromance.com/2013/02/26/rock-climbing-101-setting-up-to-cli...

rather than this:

http://www.moontrail.com/details/arcteryx/R320a/R-320a-leg-adjster.jpg
Post edited at 12:15
 GPN 05 Aug 2015
In reply to BStar:

> It is a double back buckle, that is not the issue here...

No, it's not. It's a speed adjust buckle, although you can double the tail back (loosely).
giovanni.blueice 05 Aug 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

Thank you for your patience, as I said earlier, I contacted both the APAVE (the certifying body that verifies our quality system for harnesses and certifies our harnesses to be conform to the norm EN 12277 form mountaineering harnesses; this is one of the two largest European companies that specialized in the certification of climbing equipment) and the ENSA (Ecole Nationale de Ski et d’Alpinisme, and independent laboratory that tests at least one harness of every batch we manufacture and whose director is also a member of UIAA safety commission). No one sounded alarmed and they both agreed that the harness fully respond to the norm.

After seeing the video posted by Needle Sports, we spent two days running a series of tests with an independent expert from the ENSA laboratory in Chamonix. We concluded that the webbing can slide in the buckle only if the following conditions are met simultaneously:
1. The harness is oversized and the buckle is placed under the belay loop or the rope,
2. The webbing is loose in the buckle and there is not tension in the belt,
3. The user must pull gently on the belay loop or the rope with a constant angle on the buckle and purposely keep pulling sidewise in a circular motion.

Following this observation, we run a series dynamic fall tests not required by the norm. For these tests, we choose the most unfavorable scenarios:
1. A possible falls sidewise,
2. With the tying in point positioned (and secured) on the safety buckle.
In both cases, the webbing never slid in the buckle proving that the scenario above cannot happen during a fall even when the most unfavorable conditions are met.

Finally we tested both the strength of the webbing tale and a fall with the harness opened to its maximum. We observed that:
1. The webbing tale does not come off the buckle and that the system withstand the force required by the norm,
2. Even with the harness fully opened and the dummy turning upside down during the fall, the dummy never escaped from the harness.

We concluded that a properly sized and tighten Choucas Harness is safe to use for climbing. Even in the unlikely event of an oversized harness coming loose due to a lack of tension in the belt, it is not possible to slip accidentally out of the harness.

We invite all of our customers to test the harness in a safe environment to double check its size and the correct tension of the belt. Please note that in some cases, even the smallest size might not fit you. We will shortly release and additional sizing information sheet that will be available in stores and on our website. If you have any question or if you are not satisfied by the product, please email us at info@blueice.com to find a solution that fully reassures you.

We are also editing a short video with the tests we run in the past days and a tutorial on choosing a proper size.

Concerning the comment about threading back the webbing tale in the buckle, it seems to add enough friction to prevent accidental slippage when the is no tension in the belt. Although this solution is certainly practical and seems very effective, under no circumstances it should be an excuse to use an oversized harness.

Giovanni Rossi – Blue Ice
2
 beardy mike 05 Aug 2015
In reply to giovanni.blueice:

So what's the excuse for designing a harness which when the harness is oversized, the buckle can come undone? That to me seems a rather daft way to design things. Quite simply, you've designed in a failure mode by putting the buckle on the wrong way round which means that the belay loop or rope can interfere with the buckle and release it. If you put a proper buckle on it, i.e. not a speed buckle, this simply would not happen. You could even design a buckle which even if you forget to thread it back would have sufficient friction to pass a UIAA test, just like the Metolius Safetech does. As I said, it would be even lighter, and I'm thinking that your customers would appreciate a lighter more robust and most importantly SAFE harness more than the 20 seconds they would save every time they put their harness on. The fact that you are quoting APAVE and ENSA and Norms over and above an extensive in house trialing process is somewhat frustrating...
 Steve nevers 05 Aug 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
> In both scenarios, the webbing never slid in the buckle proving that an accidental slippage of the webbing cannot happen during a fall even when the most unfavorable conditions are met (the direction of the force cannot be maintained perpendicular to the buckle during a fall).

Strange wording to use seeing that a few people on here have already confirmed that the webbing can and does slip.


And have to agree with people saying that a 'speed' buckle that makes any piece of PPE potentially dangerous is just a bad idea.

A 20-40 sec gain is hardly worthwhile, and double-backs aren't that fiddly anyway.
Post edited at 13:26
 BStar 05 Aug 2015
In reply to beardy mike:

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the first buckle that this harness was sold with.
1
 beardy mike 05 Aug 2015
In reply to BStar:
No worries... just so frustrating seeing companies falling for the marketing crap - put out product which is firstly absolutely safe, secondly performs the job for which it's designed better than any other product and lastly looks good and has trick stuff to make people buy it. If it doesn't do the first two, then don't sell it. Eventually it will catch you up. And definitely don't hide behind 3 sigma, Ensa, UIAA, CE or any of the other norms you can adhere to. If they adhere but still have functional problems the're no point in having the certificate...
Post edited at 13:28
 woollardjt 05 Aug 2015
In reply to beardy mike:

Hi mike

Hope casa alfredino is going well


I must have the right shaped body or right sized harness as I still haven't been able to get the buckle to release without forcing it myself???

But have to agree with you on companies putting stuff out which are purely market driven
 beardy mike 05 Aug 2015
In reply to woollardjt:

Yeah all good. I just know from having designed speed buckles they are always prone to slippage unless you go down the road Metolius took. I understand that the market demands features, but the simple truth is that speed buckles ALL slip once you get to a certain load - that's just the way the work. And it'd be much simpler and safer if companies just concentrated on making fail safe thread back buckles and take the time penalty. Customers would be able to understand the decision if you explained it to them... they'd probably resolve to save the extra seconds spent putting their harness on by getting ever so slightly fitter and walking faster...
 Coel Hellier 05 Aug 2015
In reply to beardy mike:

> And it'd be much simpler and safer if companies just concentrated on making fail safe thread back buckles and take the time penalty.

I thought the move away from thread-back buckles was more about people forgetting to thread them back, than about the speed issue.

Personally I'd be quite happy with a thread-back buckle, and never forgot to do them up, but few harnesses have them these days.
 beardy mike 05 Aug 2015
In reply to Coel Hellier: Well yeah, apart from as I say, you can design the buckle to be fail safe and have enough friction to allow for forgetting to double back...

 LastBoyScout 05 Aug 2015
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> I thought the move away from thread-back buckles was more about people forgetting to thread them back, than about the speed issue.

You are correct.

Speed buckles were supposed to be safer, as you didn't need to un-thread the buckle and therefore couldn't get it wrong/forget to double it back - neither of which should be a problem if you're doing proper buddy checks.

> Personally I'd be quite happy with a thread-back buckle, and never forgot to do them up, but few harnesses have them these days.

I purposely bought a spare Wild Country Synchro harness with the double-back buckle just before they changed to the speed buckle. I never did, and still don't, like the speed buckle arrangement. It is marketing waffle over a tried and trusted design that didn't need to be re-worked for the sake of it and especially not when the resulting system is potentially less safe than the one it replaced.

This issue is not new and doesn't only affect Blue Ice harnesses - when I worked in a gear shop years ago, a customer returned a Petzl harness (Corax, I think), for exactly the same reason of the buckles slipping in use. Although not the same scenario as demonstrated here, it's more proof of the potential failure of this system.

I've also found the speed buckles can make a harness a pain to put on if the makers haven't made the belt long enough, as demonstrated when trying to get my God-daughter into the Edelrid Finn harness.
 cuppatea 05 Aug 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

An older version of the blue ice choucas (with a different buckle) was talked about a few years ago:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=523692&v=1#x7061704


I deliberately bought a harness with threadback buckles as I have more confidence in them. What would I do with an extra 30 seconds? Have a cup of tea?
 FreshSlate 05 Aug 2015

I don't think this is a speed buckle thing rather than having to do with this specific buckle and set-up. If speed buckles were generally unsafe we'd have a lot more reports and videos of them slipping.

I'm seeing a lot of 'justifying my decision to buy X product' here rather than any deeper reasoning.
Post edited at 17:34
1
 beardy mike 05 Aug 2015
In reply to FreshSlate:
So if this harness didn't have a speed buckle, would this happen? No, it wouldn't. So yeah, it's pretty much a speed buckle thing. All I'm saying is from a design perspective they suck. Speed buckles slip with time loosening harnesses unless they are well designed, they slip during high load testing so they have to have very specific profiles and even then they will slip once past the rating, you have two components so potentially they weigh more, they are more expensive... everything about them is pap. Other than they look fancy and the marketeers have got us eating out of their hands, thinking we can't spare the extra 20 seconds. Yeah sure, on 4 buckle harnesses they're a pain but how many people have a 4 buckle harness and how often do you change the leg loops or the second waist buckle? Almost never...
Post edited at 17:50
3
 cuppatea 05 Aug 2015
In reply to beardy mike:

Do other speed buckle equipped harnesses not have a 'loop' on the waist belt that keeps the belay loop central?
This would seem to prevent the belay loop(or rope) getting behind the buckle
 beardy mike 05 Aug 2015
In reply to cuppatea:

Well exactly - they've sewn the buckle on wrong bit of webbing. If the buckle was the other way round, i.e. looking down from above you pull the buckle left to right rather than right to left, you wouldn't get the belay loop jammed underneath the buckle and lifting it. But then you couldn't use a conventional nappy style design and it just wouldn't be possible to make right. To my mind somebodies dropped the ball. Would be interesting to see photo's of the previous buckle and how that was oriented and what the failure on that one was.
 FreshSlate 05 Aug 2015
In reply to beardy mike:

> So if this harness didn't have a speed buckle, would this happen? No, it wouldn't. So yeah, it's pretty much a speed buckle thing. All I'm saying is from a design perspective they suck. Speed buckles slip with time loosening harnesses unless they are well designed, they slip during high load testing so they have to have very specific profiles and even then they will slip once past the rating, you have two components so potentially they weigh more, they are more expensive... everything about them is pap. Other than they look fancy and the marketeers have got us eating out of their hands, thinking we can't spare the extra 20 seconds. Yeah sure, on 4 buckle harnesses they're a pain but how many people have a 4 buckle harness and how often do you change the leg loops or the second waist buckle? Almost never...

We've had two reports of a buckle from the same manufacturer having problems, as you point out the design of the buckle has been inadequate.

A more correct statement would be 'badly designed harnesses with speed buckles are bad' rather than speed buckles being instrinsically bad. I don't accept that all speed buckle harnesses are dangerous, however I would say this one is.

The reason people buy them is because they do the job and are more convenient, you also don't have accidents due to failure to double back. Speed buckle harnesses are not necessarily heavier either, due to he dominance of the feature you'll most likely find the harness with the best features/weight with a speed buckle on it. If people were still buying the doubled back design (en mass) then we'd see a lot more of them.


 PPP 05 Aug 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

> Personally, I have heard nothing back from Blue Ice or from Beyond Hope.

Good luck with waiting, I still haven't heard from Beyond Hope since 29/09/2014. I kindly reminded them in May, but oh well!
 beardy mike 06 Aug 2015
In reply to FreshSlate:
OK. So as a job I design stuff. I have designed speed buckles. Speed buckles are in my opinion intrinsically flawed for the following reasons:

1) they slip during use. This is well documented. The question is not if but by how much. Some slip a fair bit, some hardly at all. However with a harness which will be used where movement occurs over extended periods of time, it is advisable to keep an eye on them as they do work loose over the course of the day.

2)they slip during high loading. When you load a speed buckle they will slip once the rated load is applied. This is usually a very high load if the harness complies to UIAA norms, which not all harnesses comply with - there is no requirement to do so. UIAA norms state a higher load than CE. By contrast an old style rethreaded buckle does not slip at all, under any circumstances, it just cuts the webbing once it gets to a high enough load, far in excess of the point at which the speed buckle will slip.

3) From a manufacturers perspective they are more expensive.

4) from a manufacturers perspective, you have to put more material into a speed buckle than a standard rethreaded buckle unless you design the buckle extremely carefully. As most manufacturers are looking for the lightest they can get, this can impact on the profile of the buckle and security of it. Friction is all about the edges it goes through and how well the webbing is trapped which is directly affected by angles, depths of metal etc. The slimmer the buckle, the more likely it is to slip. What I am getting at is the lighter the buckle the more likely it is to slip. Heavier generally = fatter and often more acute angles.

5) the old style buckles can and have been build to be absolutely fail safe - the Metolius safetech buckle withstands in excess of 10kN without being double backed which is a far greater load than you will see in pretty much any fall, what with the impact being spread across the waist belt, the leg loops and partially being absorbed by the soft tissues of your body. Bearing this in mind, the question of safety is actually a moot point - speed buckles present no benefit in terms of safety if you design your buckle well.

6) having sat in marketing meetings I know how these things go. You the customer demands tech. We the supplier try to supply that tech, sometimes offering advantages which are minimal, but once in a shop are played up to be a big deal. I as a designer have to put forwards arguments for and against that tech. Very often, the marketing aspects of it are put forwards very strongly, overwhelming all practical and logical reasons. It's not a case of whether buckles were that unsafe before, it's more a case that it's perceived that that is what the market requires.

I know some of this sounds and is a bit cynical, but it's the truth. Case in point above when the chap from blue ice commented, he's said that originally they put on the buckle which the market demanded. Now far be it for me to say that people do and don't want but as I posted earlier, the single most important thing with a product is that it's safe to use. In this case it should under no circumstances open up and allow for the user to fall out of it. Whether it is oversized, undersized, pink purple or the colours of the jamaican flag (which believe it or not can make a difference to speed buckle slippage - some colours are slipper than others). This product would be a better product undoubtedly if it did not have a speed buckle. So you have to ask why they feel it warranted to use one, and the single and only answer is marketing - it appeals to the users sensibilities. That is just the completely wrong reason.
Post edited at 02:02
 john arran 06 Aug 2015
In reply to beardy mike:

Yes but given a choice I'd choose a speed buckle in almost all cases - good ones in the right places are simply quicker and more foolproof, despite what seems to me an inconsequential weight penalty. I think it should be up to manufacturers to make sure whatever buckles are used are safe in all ways they expect them to be used or abused, hence my comments above about being wary of a manufacturer that appears otherwise. Once the dangers of not rethreading old buckles became known it was up to manufacturers to address that, either by better instructions and/or (preferably) by better design. Ultimately, failure to do so could risk liability charges.
 Jim Walton 07 Aug 2015
In reply to beardy mike:

My understanding of why this 'Speed Buckle' was used is that the harness is mainly designed for use in an Alpine environment and the users will generally be wearing gloves. The buckle (I own this harness) is very easy to do up when wearing big gloves, the older double back version can be a pig to do up at two in the morning at -20C.

I do, however, much prefer the double back buckle. Once it's done up it doesn't creep or slip or come undone. There are few harnesses left that still carry this type of buckle. My main climbing harness does though, it's the DMM Renegade Pro 2. This is the standard DMM Renegade harness but built with double back buckles, brilliant harness.
 BeyondHope 14 Aug 2015
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

Dear All,

Please see below information from Blue Ice. To accompany this Blue Ice have produced a video and sizing information

Sizing - https://www.dropbox.com/s/eiy4rlbaek8buap/Choucas%20Harness%20II%20sizing%2...
Video - youtube.com/watch?v=pZe2340B9qQ&

"A customer recently contacted us after running into a problem with the safety buckle of the Choucas II Harness.

We contacted both the APAVE (the certifying body that verifies our quality system for harnesses and certification of harnesses to conform to the norm 12277 for mountaineering harnesses) and the ENSA (Ecole Nationale de Ski et d’Alpinisme) an independent laboratory that tests at least one harness of every batch we manufacture. No one sounded alarmed and they both agreed that the harness fully responds to the norm.

We spent two days running a series of tests with an independent expert from the ENSA laboratory in Chamonix. We concluded that the webbing can slide in the buckle only if the following conditions are met simultaneously:
1. The harness is oversized and the buckle is placed under the belay loop or the rope,
2. The webbing is loose in the buckle and there is no tension in the belt,
3. The user must pull gently on the belay loop or the rope perpendicularly to the buckle and purposely keep pulling sidewise.

Following this observation, we ran a series dynamic fall tests not required by the norm. For these tests, we choose the most unfavorable scenarios:
1. A possible falls sidewise,
2. With the tying in point positioned (and secured) on the safety buckle.
In both scenarios, the webbing never slid in the buckle proving that an accidental slippage of the webbing cannot happen during a fall even when the most unfavorable conditions are met.

Finally we tested both the strength of the webbing tale and a fall with the harness opened to its maximum. We observed that:
1. The webbing tale does not come out of the buckle and that the system withstands the force required by the Certification norm,
2. Even with the harness fully opened and the test dummy turning upside down during the fall, the test dummy never escaped from the harness.

We invite all of our customers to check the fit their Choucas II harness, in a safe environment, to double check its size, fit and the correct geometry of the belt when fitted. (Please note that in some cases, even the smallest size might not fit you.)
If a Customer needs any assistance with this, please refer to the retailer from which the harness was purchased, where advice and, if necessary, smaller harnesses can be tried on to verify correct size."

Giovanni Rossi – Blue Ice
 beardy mike 14 Aug 2015
In reply to BeyondHope:

I've made a video demonstrating how a speed buckle can fail pretty easily in the set up the choucas uses. It's perfectly viable to get this to happen in a sideways fall, regardless of the belay loop. I've used a competitors harness and the demo is in no way a slight on that harness, but it shows pretty effectively how if you leave the tail of the waist belt over the top of your rope tie in loop you can get the buckle to release, or if the tie in loop pushes hard against the buckle. Sorry, for the sub standard quality of the video - david bailey I ain't. Personally I feel blue ice need to do more work trying to recreate this problem... make of it what you will...

youtube.com/watch?v=Je6Tlc40yA0&

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