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Reasonably protected, crux is 7a+/b boulder problem, safe-ish fall.
Low E grade or slightly higher and have the E for Effort?
Low E grade or slightly higher and have the E for Effort?
In reply to JSH:
Was thinking of a lower E grade possibly E3 but still 6c as you are right by the gear.
The climbing up to the roof is unprotected and around VS and the climb finishes up S ground.
I have done some anomalies in the past HVS 6c and E1 6c
Was thinking of a lower E grade possibly E3 but still 6c as you are right by the gear.
The climbing up to the roof is unprotected and around VS and the climb finishes up S ground.
I have done some anomalies in the past HVS 6c and E1 6c
In reply to petegunn:
Technically if a fall will be onto gear then the grade ought to be how hard it is to get up it first go, so E5 at least, maybe more. In practice people ignore the onsight or even the flash aspect when grading 'problem' routes and instead grade them for the redpoint. Things like that hardly ever get onsighted by people operating at the given E grade.
Technically if a fall will be onto gear then the grade ought to be how hard it is to get up it first go, so E5 at least, maybe more. In practice people ignore the onsight or even the flash aspect when grading 'problem' routes and instead grade them for the redpoint. Things like that hardly ever get onsighted by people operating at the given E grade.
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In reply to petegunn:
"Reasonably protected",only "safe-ish" and English 6c doesn't really sound like E3 to me. Not at Armathwaite is it? Good effort anyway!
"Reasonably protected",only "safe-ish" and English 6c doesn't really sound like E3 to me. Not at Armathwaite is it? Good effort anyway!
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
But then the 6c will tell you that anyway whilst the E3 tells you its very short lived...that's how it works
But then the 6c will tell you that anyway whilst the E3 tells you its very short lived...that's how it works
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In reply to Bulls Crack:
I think what you're saying is that the sub-grade 6c tells you that the main grade E3 is rubbish and should have been higher since, as an E3 leader, you haven't a hope of on sighting it.
Curious logic but works, in a salvageably dysfunctional kind of way.
I think what you're saying is that the sub-grade 6c tells you that the main grade E3 is rubbish and should have been higher since, as an E3 leader, you haven't a hope of on sighting it.
Curious logic but works, in a salvageably dysfunctional kind of way.
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In reply to john arran:
Not really - probably because I've never bought into the E grade as a survey of those who can do the technical move! The discrepancy between the 2 gives the nuance
Not really - probably because I've never bought into the E grade as a survey of those who can do the technical move! The discrepancy between the 2 gives the nuance
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In reply to Bulls Crack:
Really? But surely the overall grade is a reflection on how easy/hard it is to climb the route. Otherwise, what is it?
> Not really - probably because I've never bought into the E grade as a survey of those who can do the technical move! The discrepancy between the 2 gives the nuance
Really? But surely the overall grade is a reflection on how easy/hard it is to climb the route. Otherwise, what is it?
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In reply to Jon Read:
I see it as the relationship between the 2 parameters gives the flexibility to describe the route. Giving a well/resonbaly protected boulder problem route E6 based on the fact that some notional % of E6 climbers might be able to manage 6c seems nonsensical to me
I see it as the relationship between the 2 parameters gives the flexibility to describe the route. Giving a well/resonbaly protected boulder problem route E6 based on the fact that some notional % of E6 climbers might be able to manage 6c seems nonsensical to me
In reply to Bulls Crack:
Absolutely; I entirely agree with you here.
That's fine too, but really I think it's better to think of how hard it is to climb overall (including that 6c move) from the floor, first go. You can work this out by comparing how hard it is to other established routes, or the notional likelihood of an E6 leader managing it. Ultimately, the latter is actually what determines the grade -- if lots of people find it a sandbag, fail when they would reasonably expect to get up it, it gets upgraded (usually the overall grade).
> I see it as the relationship between the 2 parameters gives the flexibility to describe the route.
Absolutely; I entirely agree with you here.
> Giving a well/resonbaly protected boulder problem route E6 based on the fact that some notional % of E6 climbers might be able to manage 6c seems nonsensical to me
That's fine too, but really I think it's better to think of how hard it is to climb overall (including that 6c move) from the floor, first go. You can work this out by comparing how hard it is to other established routes, or the notional likelihood of an E6 leader managing it. Ultimately, the latter is actually what determines the grade -- if lots of people find it a sandbag, fail when they would reasonably expect to get up it, it gets upgraded (usually the overall grade).
In reply to petegunn:
To get back on topic, sounds like an E6 to me, particularly if there was a bit more to the route, such as more tough climbing, hard to place gear.
(similar sounding examples from gritstone could be: Counterstroke of Equity @ Roaches; Master Of Reality @ Hen Cloud, Skinless Wonder @ Stanage)
It might be just worth E5 6c if the gear was easy to place and at the waist or higher for a short lived crux, and there was little else other than 'the move' (e.g. Forgotten Wall @ Almscliffe; Stanage Without Oxygen @ Stanage )
To get back on topic, sounds like an E6 to me, particularly if there was a bit more to the route, such as more tough climbing, hard to place gear.
(similar sounding examples from gritstone could be: Counterstroke of Equity @ Roaches; Master Of Reality @ Hen Cloud, Skinless Wonder @ Stanage)
It might be just worth E5 6c if the gear was easy to place and at the waist or higher for a short lived crux, and there was little else other than 'the move' (e.g. Forgotten Wall @ Almscliffe; Stanage Without Oxygen @ Stanage )
In reply to petegunn:
Some good points covered, it just got me thinking as its is a tricky one to grade as the hard climbing is so sort lived.
I agree with Bulls Crack and why I was thinking of a lower E grade, that would tell you it was short lived, safe but still hard.
Being a 4 move boulder problem right next to the gear, where a couple of the moves don't gain you any height. Easy climbing both below and above to finish.
Some good points covered, it just got me thinking as its is a tricky one to grade as the hard climbing is so sort lived.
I agree with Bulls Crack and why I was thinking of a lower E grade, that would tell you it was short lived, safe but still hard.
Being a 4 move boulder problem right next to the gear, where a couple of the moves don't gain you any height. Easy climbing both below and above to finish.
Post edited at 15:16
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In reply to petegunn:
I though the British grading system was supposed to be the best and give all the necessary info... Right Durran.
So, why it seems to be so hard .
> Some good points covered, it just got me thinking as its is a tricky one to grade as the hard climbing is so sort lived.
I though the British grading system was supposed to be the best and give all the necessary info... Right Durran.
So, why it seems to be so hard .
In reply to HeMa:
No system claims that!
> (In reply to petegunn)
>
> [...]
>
> I though the British grading system was supposed to be the best and give all the necessary info... Right Durran.
>
> So, why it seems to be so hard .
>
> [...]
>
> I though the British grading system was supposed to be the best and give all the necessary info... Right Durran.
>
> So, why it seems to be so hard .
No system claims that!
In reply to Bulls Crack:
Herr Durran has disagreed... and claimed superiority of the British system...
Herr Durran has disagreed... and claimed superiority of the British system...
In reply to andrewmcleod:
indeed...
as in the only reasonable info of the route is F7a block with good protection.
indeed...
as in the only reasonable info of the route is F7a block with good protection.
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
How come, the OP already stated in the best manner available. easy climbing to F7a or so well protected crux, followed be more really easy climbing.
How come, the OP already stated in the best manner available. easy climbing to F7a or so well protected crux, followed be more really easy climbing.
In reply to Bulls Crack:
I disagree. No point giving it E3 if an E3 climber won't be getting up it. The overall grade is supposed to tell you how hard the route is to climb and if the route is far harder than any other E3 then it should get given something harder. By your logic why stop at E3? If the rest of the climb is about VS then why not VS 6c? It all starts to get a bit nonsensical.
To my mind the whole point in grades is to help the climber out by giving an indication of what they should manage and what they shouldn't. Could be quite handy on a big sea cliff. Obviously this is nothing of the sort but the same principle should apply.
> But then the 6c will tell you that anyway whilst the E3 tells you its very short lived...that's how it works
I disagree. No point giving it E3 if an E3 climber won't be getting up it. The overall grade is supposed to tell you how hard the route is to climb and if the route is far harder than any other E3 then it should get given something harder. By your logic why stop at E3? If the rest of the climb is about VS then why not VS 6c? It all starts to get a bit nonsensical.
To my mind the whole point in grades is to help the climber out by giving an indication of what they should manage and what they shouldn't. Could be quite handy on a big sea cliff. Obviously this is nothing of the sort but the same principle should apply.
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In reply to HeMa:
what, why is grading new routes often difficult? Because the FA will approach the climb differently to subsequent ascentionists. Having a grade already attached to a line can sometimes impact on how it feels to repeat it.
> How come
what, why is grading new routes often difficult? Because the FA will approach the climb differently to subsequent ascentionists. Having a grade already attached to a line can sometimes impact on how it feels to repeat it.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Well, in this instance the FA already new how hard the climbing was and stated it in the original post. Why try to fit it in a system that doesn't work in this case.
Well, in this instance the FA already new how hard the climbing was and stated it in the original post. Why try to fit it in a system that doesn't work in this case.
In reply to HeMa:
It might surprise you that FAs can get sport or bouldering grades wrong too! Whichever system you use there will be a bit of uncertainty before the grade settles down with repeats.
It might surprise you that FAs can get sport or bouldering grades wrong too! Whichever system you use there will be a bit of uncertainty before the grade settles down with repeats.
In reply to petegunn:
Who cares? If it's worth repeating, somebody else - usually a more adept climber - will calibrate the grade for you. Just whack an arbitrary E4 on it and see what happens.
Who cares? If it's worth repeating, somebody else - usually a more adept climber - will calibrate the grade for you. Just whack an arbitrary E4 on it and see what happens.
In reply to petegunn:
I think I'd feel hard done by if a trad route had a font 7a+/b and I got anything less than E6 for it even if it had bomber gear as close as it gets!
I think I'd feel hard done by if a trad route had a font 7a+/b and I got anything less than E6 for it even if it had bomber gear as close as it gets!
In reply to Somerset swede basher:
Get yersel on Doubting Thomas at Malham then, easily as hard as the 7a+ Routes on the catwalk, gets E5 6b.
> I think I'd feel hard done by if a trad route had a font 7a+/b and I got anything less than E6 for it even if it had bomber gear as close as it gets!
Get yersel on Doubting Thomas at Malham then, easily as hard as the 7a+ Routes on the catwalk, gets E5 6b.
In reply to Bob:
I think the OP said 7a+/b boulder problem not route. I've no issues with E 5 for sport 7b climbing and good trad gear. I wouldn't expect to find a font 7a+/b problem above a bolt on a 7b sport route though, that would surely be more like 7c+.
I think the OP said 7a+/b boulder problem not route. I've no issues with E 5 for sport 7b climbing and good trad gear. I wouldn't expect to find a font 7a+/b problem above a bolt on a 7b sport route though, that would surely be more like 7c+.
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