UKC

I found a large nut at Roaches Upper Tier just below the pedestal on the left hand side of Pedestal Route (HVD 4a). After high fiving myself at scoring my first piece of crag booty in a size I didn't already have I then saw a gear tag with the name, address and mobile number of the previous owner.

Do normal crag swag/littering rules apply?

Oh and to make it worse I only went and lost a quickdraw somewhere along the way, a brand new DMM 10cm with orange dyneema sling if anyone found it

In reply to radddogg:

did you fall off when you high fived yourself?

I'd give it back since they've gone to so much effort.

Otherwise I go for the under £20 worth and its mine rule.

In reply to Dan Arkle:

Nearly, the exposed hand traverse was quite tricky no handed.

The nut came in really useful during the pitch actually as I placed it as I pulled through from the hand traverse onto the slab/corner. Bomber!

In reply to radddogg:
Keep the nut but contact them anonymously to tell them where they can find their brand new quickdraw.

In reply to radddogg:

Keep the nut but return the tag

In reply to radddogg:

Return the nut.

In reply to radddogg:


I think you mean the owner.

Mick

In reply to radddogg:

Return

In reply to radddogg:

As far as I'm aware, UK law trumps "crag swag/littering rules" - you are allowed to keep a lost or abandoned item only once you've made reasonable attempts to identify the owner and confirm that they no longer want it.

In reply to radddogg:

Putting a tag on it makes no difference to the game of cragswag. You may keep it or return it without qualm.

In reply to Ciro:

Law is irrelevant to such low cost items as it would never be worth prosecuting. The issue is simply one of morals and for small, low-cost items is very grey indeed. In this the quality of the nut is important (wires can get damaged when banged about during attempted removal) and the expense of return must be factored, including an estimate of the cost of the finders time. For all these, reasons (name tag or none) unless the climber is still at the crag, I'd always regard a single stuck nut as "swag".

In reply to radddogg:

Just to add some context. The nut it's a large number 1 nut of unknown make (it's in my car boot and I'm on a train) but is bigger than my biggest number 11 nut.

It is in pretty good condition with some minor surface rust to the loop - probably where rain has formed drips at the lowest point while it has been sat there.

It appears to have been abbed off or escaped off due to its location and it was fairly wedged in. I don't think it was stuck as I just put my finger through the loop and pulled upwards hard and it came free.

I think I'll text the 'previous' owner and see what he says and probably return it, but not before I've bought myself a replacement as I've used it on all four routes I've climbed since obtaining it

In reply to radddogg:

Just to add some context. The nut it's a large number 1 nut of unknown make (it's in my car boot and I'm on a train) but is bigger than my biggest number 11 nut.

It is in pretty good condition with some minor surface rust to the loop - probably where rain has formed drips at the lowest point while it has been sat there.

It appears to have been abbed off or escaped off due to its location and it was fairly wedged in although there was no cabinet with it. I don't think it was abandoned due to being stuck as I just put my finger through the loop and pulled upwards hard and it came free.

I think I'll text the 'previous' owner and see what he says and probably return it, but not before I've bought myself a replacement as I've used it on all four routes I've climbed since obtaining it

In reply to radddogg:

I think the main distinction to draw is whether found gear has been lost or abandoned. Abandoned gear is fair game as swag although common courtesy would require returning anything if those who abandoned it are still at the crag.
This basically means that nuts in place and lower-off krabs are usually swag, while anything found on the floor isn't. The biggest grey area is deciding if it's likely that the owners intend to return for it, as would be expected if a whole pitch was equipped after an accident. What about if someone had lowered off a cam and a nut equalised with a new sling and screwgate? Your call.

In reply to Ciro:

As far as I'm aware, UK law trumps "crag swag/littering rules" - you are allowed to keep a lost or abandoned item only once you've made reasonable attempts to identify the owner and confirm that they no longer want it.

There's also no laws about bolting crags and chipping, etc. However, we don't do such things because of ethics.
If I found a piece of gear that had clearly been abandoned, then whether it had tags on or not, I would keep it.
That's my personal view point, if other people want to return such items, that's entirely up to them and I wouldn't criticise them for doing so. In return, it would be fair not to basically label people as thieves for keeping the occasional bit of Crag Swag.

In reply to Ciro:


no it's the other way around

In reply to Hat Dude:

Crag Swag is law isn't it?

In reply to FactorXXX:
If i find clearly labelled gear i return it, end of . I know whose it is so why wouldnt I ? I wouldnt dream of keeping any other piece of property I found with the owners name and address on...

In reply to Ciro:


As I understand it from asking a lawyer (in Scotland, so may not apply to England) there is a distinction between 'lost' and 'abandoned'. With 'abandoned' you know where something is but you have decided to put no more effort into retrieving it.

In reply to Offwidth:


Only irrelevant if you consider the law an inconvenience to get around where possible.


Agreed. If the wire has been made dangerous by the removal then bin it.


If you consider the effort of calling a number on a tag, and walking the the post office if the owner wants to pay for the postage onerous, you don't have to pick up the gear...

In reply to FactorXXX:



It's not fair to label someone who performs an act described in law as theft as a thief? If the cap fits...

In reply to radddogg:

as you've already found out, there's a certain degree of karma in these situations I find

In reply to Ciro:

As a professional with signficant efforts in voluntary work and way more to do than hours in the day I have much better things to do with my spare time than make up for other climber's incompetance thank you very much (and as for police time... you are daft if you think law affects small items abandoned in any way other than as a small grey area moral issue). So, unless the gear has some weird personnal connection (unusual for various reasons) or there has been an accident or financial loss is significant to the climber, I won't be returning it.

I also think it is much better to remove abandoned gear quickly, if possible, as it is litter and will rot with age.... I have given lots of this away to poorer climbers, especially nuts for a winter rack.

In reply to radddogg:

Use the address and go rob the house

In reply to radddogg:

Hand traverse? It's a slab! didn't you just stick your toes in and shuffle to the left like everyone else? You missed a trick, you could have had a big nut in each hand for that bit.

In reply to Ciro:


But is taking abandoned gear described in law as theft? I don't think that has been established and as I pointed out above when I asked a lawyer their opinion was that it was not theft. If you intentionally abandon something you are renouncing ownership just like if you chuck it in the bin.

In reply to Offwidth:

As for police time, Cumbria Police have recently stopped dealing with lost property and have publicly announced so.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I'd expect that if you had reasonable grounds for a genuine belief that it was abandoned you wouldn't have to trace the owner. You'd have to take into account, inter alia, in considering this possible abandonment, the intentions of the owner in placing the tag balanced against how easily the gear could have been retrieved had the owner wished to take the effort so to do.

It is not reasonable not to bother to retrieve gear and assume an obligation on any retriever or finder simply because you labelled it.

In reply to radddogg:

I find the mantra "do as you would be done by" quite helpful in life's decision making.

I had someone drive 20 miles to return a jacket to me earlier this year when it unhooked itself from my bag coming down from Stanage.

How nice is that?

In reply to radddogg:

You have the owners contact details its reasonable to get in touch and try and get it back to them. It would be much better to conclude this thread to say you had actually texted the owner and the gear is now on its way to them.

Hope your sling turns up or of that someone puts a post on UKC lost and found to say they have it for you to get in touch

Please dont feed the troll any more, he's had quite enough

In reply to radddogg:

Lost or abandoned(or stuck) these get dealt with diferently

In reply to Šljiva:

There is a difference between losing something and abandoning it. I didn't knowingly leave my quickdraw.

If you go through the thought process of abbing off a piece of your gear you are deciding that you would rather sacrifice the gear than continue the climb so you have already accepted the gear as gone.

However, had the item not been tagged there would be no question, which makes me realise I need to tag my gear and soon!

In reply to Offwidth:

Congratulations on your professional achievements and a round of applause for engaging in significant voluntary work. I'm not sure what that has to do with whether or not you should try to return someone's lost property though? As I said, you can always leave it for someone who does have the time to make a phone call.

The law doesn't distinguish between high and low value goods, because what's of value varies from person to person. If the guy who tagged his wire is a professional like yourself in work it probably matters little, but if he/she is a jobseeker who's just been sanctioned for 16 weeks for being late for an interview, it's going to be a little harder to replace.

I don't think anyone is going to argue that you should involve the police for a wire. The only grey area is what's considered a reasonable attempt to return it. If the gear is untagged then a quick shout round the crag is probably reasonable, along with mentioning it the next day if you're back at the crag. If the gear is tagged with a phone number, I can't see how a quick phone call is unreasonable. If you don't have time to go to the post office, you can always offer to leave it at the top/bottom of the route or have them come to your house/work to pick it up.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

How do you know it was intentionally abandoned by the owner without phoning the number on the tag to ask? An inexperienced second could have had a problem getting it out and not told the owner until they were at the top of the crag.

In reply to Ciro:


I'd do this from a call box so that your call can't be traced if you decide to keep the gear.

In reply to Ciro:

An inexperienced second could have had a problem getting it out and not told the owner until they were at the top of the crag.

Still abandoned, as they could have abseiled down or re-climbed the route to retrieve it.

In reply to radddogg:

If you buy an identical nut you'll find it won't fit nearly as often, because then the magic of crag swag will no longer apply. ;O)

There is much debate (and a fair bit of sanctimony) about crag-swag on here, but really the crag-swag rules are much the same as the rules of life.
Rule 1: Whatever you're going to do, try not to be too much of a dickhead about it.
Rule 2: See rule 1.

In reply to Ciro:

Well sure, I do congratulate myself about big picture issues and real practical help and sure I don't worry about losing the chance of small moral gains in an overall average loss situation, when that time could be used for real certain gain. I've climbed with and subsidised (kit, training, transport, beer etc) with hard up and really poor climbers (who for some reason gained way more gear than they ever lost, maybe as the cost was important and none of them ever name tagged their gear). In climbing I've also given up thousands of hours in guidebook and access related work at my own cost of time transport etc. Plus I've helped a Uni club for the best part of 20 years.

What have you done other than ride your high-horse on daft theoretical moral non-issues?

In reply to deepsoup:


Surely he could get around that by buying an identical nut and giving that to the owner of the found one. Everyone's a winner!

In reply to radddogg:

Remove the tag and claim the nut as your own.

If I'd found a cam and it was the middle of a busy day at a popular venue, I may take the time to find out if the previous owner is still around. Otherwise, the retrieved gear is a reward for your patience and skill!

In reply to pebbles:


Even if they've deliberately abandoned it?

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

How would you know this? I have once in a blue moon given up on a piece of gear and told somebody obviously out scavenging where to find it. But other than this...
TBH I think youre looking for technicalities, I cant really think of any reason why somebody would voluntarily decide to leave random bits of gear behind unless forced to do so by being unable to remove it or needing to retreat. Its a matter for your own conscience but personally I think the decent thing is to return it if its labelled - all you have to do is email them or put it in lost and found and leave it up to them to come up with arrangements that suit you. Plus karma and all that - what goes around comes around. And you'll get the nice warm feeling of having been a nice guy.

In reply to Ciro:

Maybe to avoid the moral ambiguity we need a convention for marking gear (e.g. a green dot) which makes it clear that the owner is fine with it being swagged if you find it hanging in a crag with no sign of them about.

If I've left low value gear behind I'd much prefer someone took it out and used it than it stayed there rotting.

In reply to radddogg:

Imagine it were your gear, what would you like the finder to do? Do that.

jk

In reply to Offwidth:

The question of whether you should return or intentionally deprive someone of property they care about enough to have marked with their contact details does not require an analysis of the past behaviour of the person doing the returning/depriving. Even the hypocrites in the catholic church did away with the practice of buying indulgences some time ago.

In reply to FactorXXX:

What if they decided it was too late, and better to come back tomorrow to collect it? Or only realised back at home and weren't able to return until the next weekend?

In reply to Ciro:


I love the idea of this only dawning on someone when they get home and check their rack - "oh, right, I wondered what we were abseiling off..."

In reply to Ciro:


My entire rack is labelled with my contact details to the very last krab, but if I abandon gear I'm more than happy for the person retrieving it to claim it. Obviously I'd like to think they might return the shiny new Totem cam for example, but equally I won't be bailing from expensive gear unless there really is no other option. The same applies to stuck gear - if we leave without it, it's because we've given up on it and I wouldn't expect to get it back.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

I dont think at this point he's referring to "get out of this" gear any more....more the sort of stuff you accidentally overlook when fleeing from rain or midges or lhen its got too dark. I once found almost an entire rack left at the bottom of a route during a rainstorm- they had moved along the crag to do another route on the other persons gear, intending to return, then forgotten when the heavens opened. Forgetful, yes, but youd have to be a real meanie not to return it.

In reply to Ciro:


Better off saving the petrol money and spending it on a new nut whilst reflecting on being more careful in future.

In reply to radddogg:

I never understand how so many climbers who otherwise seem to be nice, reasonable climbers can even contemplate taking property when they know who the owner is because either:

a) they are just stealing
b) they are too lazy to bother contacting them (but not lazy enough not to take it)

If the gear belonged to someone you knew (but not a good friend - maybe a family member, work colleague, member of your club etc) would you still feel the same about taking it? Would you tell them you have it, or would you hide it keep it secret?

I lost a nut key somewhere on Bosigran. I didn't leave it behind deliberately; it fell off my harness when the connector broke (I didn't know when). It had all of my details on, but I have never heard anything. Is it still there somewhere? Did it fall in the sea? Or did someone just take it for themselves? Conversely I will soon be posting someone's (tagged) crab back to them (after they said I could keep it) because I would rather people got back what was theirs (I have benefited from nuts I have been unable to find the owner of, so it is only fair).

In reply to deepsoup:

>



By labelling every item in your rack with your contact details are you breaking Rule 1 ?!

In reply to Ciro:

What if they decided it was too late, and better to come back tomorrow to collect it? Or only realised back at home and weren't able to return until the next weekend?

Basically tough!
People can't just leave gear in crags and expect to retrieve it at their own convenience and at the inconvenience of others.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

If the gear belonged to someone you knew (but not a good friend - maybe a family member, work colleague, member of your club etc) would you still feel the same about taking it? Would you tell them you have it, or would you hide it keep it secret?

Too bloody right I'd tell them!

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

Ooh, good question. Tricky call. ;O)

I see you have a 'like' and a 'dislike' already, maybe those two buttons could make themselves useful for once and take a poll.

In reply to Ciro:

Just who is pushing the indulgencies here? I view my choice as my own business: the best perceived use of my time given the likely reasons the gear was left, with full acknowledgemnt the subject is a moral grey area. You are the one seemingly pushing a moral superiority (and certainly unfiarly and incorrectly invoking law) to show my decision up as being morally wrong. I don't think religious issues are involved nor do I expect thanks for voluntary work (a piss take with a nod and wink being more likely in the wonderful anarchistic world of climbing).

I wonder also what sort of person puts their address on a nut (my poor mates would never dream of it) and why this significantly increases a moral imperitive that I should consider a change of view. Maybe someone who does this can explain why. Identification marks being usually more about cutting arguments amongst mates with shared gear.

In reply to FactorXXX:

People can't just leave gear in crags and expect to retrieve it at their own convenience and at the inconvenience of others.

It would appear, that there are two people who think it's perfectly fine to inconvenience other people, by leaving gear in crags to retrieve at their own convenience then...
Care to explain why?

In reply to andrewmcleod:

You deprived yourself of the nut key by dropping it and other people if they find it just have to live by their own morals, not yours. Its a cheap thing pretty much irrelevant in the moral picture. Those looking down their nose at non returners almost certainly fit firmly in hypocrisy territory according to religious doctrine... he who casts the stone etc.

In reply to Offwidth:


From where I'm sitting, you are. First you said you were too busy doing more important good deeds to make a phone call, then you started citing previous charitable works as a reason not to have to bother. Of course you are free to make a different moral judgement than me, but don't pretend it's because you don't have the time between doing good deeds to phone and enquire.


Where did I claim moral superiority? For the record, I've done a fair few shitty things in my time, including theft in my younger days, and I'm sure I'll do a few more shitty things before I die. Hopefully along with some good stuff too.


The sort of person who hopes to get their gear back in the event of a loss? I'd suggest the presence of a tag with the owners contact details significantly reduces the likelyhood that the item was deliberately abandoned.

In reply to radddogg:

I hope you're not expecting a consensus.

In reply to FactorXXX:



I wouldn't say it was "perfectly fine" to do so, just suggest that occasionally circumstances may make it necessary.

In reply to Ciro:

I wouldn't say it was "perfectly fine" to do so, just suggest that occasionally circumstances may make it necessary.

The only circumstances that make it necessary, would be something like an accident, etc. and I'm pretty sure most people would return such gear.
Leaving gear behind to catch last orders, etc. is essentially abandoning it. If you return at a later date and it's still there, great. If it isn't, just except that someone has effectively cleaned up after you.

I left some gear in, what shall we do? Can ab down if you want.
It's getting late, let's go the pub.
OK.
I'll come back next weekend to get it. Saying that, if I don't, someone will send it to me.
Not much point in coming back then is there?
Not really...

In reply to radddogg:

You should text them SWAGGED and leave it at that.

I've text him.

Hi Toby, I managed to retrieve your number 11 wire from the Roaches. I actually placed it further on up Pedestal Route I'll drop it in the post tomorrow. Regards Rob

I wonder if the moral richness will buy me a replacement? Just waiting for the God of Karma to contact me about my quickdraw now....

In reply to radddogg:

fair play to you.I'd have done the same if it was labelled up. Otherwise it's mine

In reply to radddogg:
I've text him.

Thanks Radddogg. It was mine. My inexperienced second couldn't get it out and only let me know once we'd topped out (last climb of the day). I couldn't be bothered to ab down to try to dig it out. For my laziness, you are welcome to keep the nut. I don't live at that address anymore (phone number still the same though). Interesting replies to the thread though. I've kept crag swag that wasn't labelled, but also returned some that was marked.
Hope you get your QD back!
>

In reply to Tobydud:

Ha, cheers Toby, it shall be my lucky nut! Maybe I'll open a Twitter account for it.... or maybe not.

In reply to Offwidth:

I tag all my gear because it makes life easier when gear inevitably gets mixed up between partners at the crag. Its not only more identifiable than electrical tape, ("mines green...what colours yours? Oh...green too" ) it means ten days later when that days climbing partner finds mysterious extra gear still on their rack they know straight away whose it is.

In reply to radddogg:

folk who put name and address tags on their gear are just attempting to make you feel guilty when you remove the id and add the swag seamlessly into your own rack to jingle along with your own.

In reply to birdie num num:

Sure... Pebbles above is just lying then (when his reasoning seemed honest and the most obvious to me ....unlike the crag swag karma indulgence peddlar reasoning further above.... anyone out there label mainly to ensure lost gear is returned?).

In reply to Ciro:
My life has plenty of moments of pure indulgence and Ive too done a few bad things but it made me smile that you feel the need to raise this after critiquing my relativities.

The good deeds point was not about how wonderful I am, its about what I choose to spend my time doing when focussed on that. You don't seem to get its my individual choice and I'm perfectly relaxed with the existential, religious or otherwise consequencies of the few cases where my "swag" was left by pure bad luck. Low cost abandoned items quite simply hold little moral weight to me.

The world is full of indulgence pedlars giving us what they regard as highly valuable things for us to do (payment being our time or cash donations). They offer to assuage our guilt and to make us glow warmly inside but being a busy guy I ignore most of these opportunities and focus on what for me looks most valuable, efficient and/or fun. There are lots of lovely psychology experiments showing most of us make similar informed choices when and where to be altruistic (often with some selfish motive), the world of potential altruism is too vast and complex and we are too simple and flawed to enable us do anything else.

In reply to Ciro:

So lets try an experiment: If I left a piece of laminated paper at a crag just giving my phone number and a message saying "please phone to arrange return, sadly with no reward possible", would you think it moral to phone?

In reply to Offwidth:

More chance of seeing a rockng horse shit than getting the paper back

In reply to Offwidth:

not a valid test as it clearly has no value to anyone

In reply to Offwidth:

pebbles was just trying to throw you off balance, my real reason for labelling my gear is far more fiendish and warped. I deliberately wedge expensive and new gear into almost but not quite impossible placements, cunningly hiding the tag so that only at the last moment are you presented with a moral dilemma.
This would of course be a very expensive hobby on my part were it not for the fact that I am an eccentric, bored and amoral millionaire

In reply to pebbles:

That's the point. The value of a nut is normally pretty tiny in financial terms so at what point does the issue become mostly about having the contact address. A brand new nut is worth a good bit less than the cost of the average local day trip when you add up the travel costs and depreciation of gear. Climbers can be odd illogical folk who go out of their way to avoid some tiny costs and yet be prolifigate on others.

In reply to pebbles:
If we ever meet I owe you a pint for the fiendish tale (and profile outline)

Somebody has either
(a) written a tool that automatically loops through every post in a thread clicking the Dislike button, or
(b) far too much time on their hands

In reply to radddogg:

Marking your gear up with contact details and expecting to get it back after you've abandoned it is like giving someone a present and then saying 'actually, can I have that back now'

Finding gear on the floor is another matter though - in that case it's just lost, not abandoned.

In reply to radddogg:

it was in the crag, and it isnt exactly difficult to ab down and retrieve it at the roaches, so it is clearly been abandoned.

regardless of the name / address tag enjoy your new piece of gear

In reply to Offwidth:

I didn't drop it (as stated). If I had dropped it I would have had some idea where and attempted to retrieve it. The extender holding it snapped; I didn't notice at the time (my nutkeys are on spring-loaded extenders). It is perfectly possible nobody found it; I hope this is what happened...

If you find some gear and the person isn't willing to pay postage/hassle to get it back to you then they've willingly abandoned it (with you) and now it is yours.

As some other people have also said the main reason my gear is tagged is so it doesn't get nicked accidentally by partners/other people, not so I can litter the crags of Britain and expect stuff posted back to me. Tough tags aren't cheap and for the cheaper gear (e.g. nuts) you are almost certainly spending more money tagging the gear than you will 'make' from additional returns, even if you are quite careless. In fact given the apparent cheapskateness of British climbers I wouldn't be surprised to let a second leave a stuck nut in a route and find someone had nicked it by the time I had managed to rig an abseil to go get it...

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Thats your view, mine is the traditional view that they abandoned it when they left it in the crag in the first place.

Postage costs a few quid, goodness knows how much extra for a smart tag and the additional cummulative costs to the finder (time, call and transport costs to post office etc). Its cheaper overall to get a 'nearly new' second-hand replacement somewhere like ebay or amazon unless the finder carries all the extra costs over the postage. In the end though its a cheap easily replaceable thing, so I'm bemused people are calling theft and getting all sanctimonious over a single abandoned nut (usually lost due to incompetence or carelessness if it is to be recovered with no damage).

In reply to Offwidth:


~15.9p each if you buy the minimum number of sheets, reducing asymptotically to ~10.2p each as you buy more sheets. Not worth it if you just want to get low-value stuff back if you lose/abandon it (unless you are VERY careless, or maybe if you have to leave lots of gear in an accident/emergency). All the tags I bought did cost less than a single cam, though.

PS really you are under no obligation to post it back, just to let the owner know you have it - if you can't be bothered then it is their job to either a) pay you enough to be bothered, or b) collect it in person or via courier at a time to suit you. Like you say for most small stuff it isn't really worth the effort beyond the karma so I suspect most people will just let you have it - then everybody is happy.

In reply to radddogg:
Having been a recent donor of crag swag - not the one you found - my thoughts on the subject, for what they're worth, are-
I knew where the nut, that was to become crag swag, was after all I was the one who placed it.
I knew how to get it out because, unlike my second, I was the one who put it in.
I could have down climbed the 75 feet to retrieve it.
I could afford to buy another nut.
I was emotionally attached to this nut, over 20 years of use and one of the first pieces of gear I ever bought.
I abandoned the nut accepting that someone else would probably take it and hopefully use it.
Had it been a cam with a much higher value I wouldn't have left it.
If you climb for long enough you'll lose some gear and find some as well.
The secret is to find more than you lose, I'm well ahead in the crag swag sweepstakes.
I'm more concerned/interested in the amount of gear, shoes, helmets, tents, etc that people seem to lose (not abandon) all over the place.
Are climbers becoming more careless then they were before?

Pmc

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Those costs on all the nuts need to be added to the very few that get lost and recovered (excluding those lost but never found, those that won't be in a fit state to return, or those removed by the likes of me that get recycled into spares, winter racks and donations for those starting out). It must be well over a quid a nut unless the labelling climber's incompetamce knows few bounds. The only good news is at least the extra cost falls on the climber loosing the nut.

If you find a labelled nut I still maintain there is rarely any obligation to even contact them (even I would for instance if I linked it to an accident). Returning an abandoned labelled nut IMHO is for the reasons I detailed earlier a highly morally ambiguous and probably not financially sensible undertaking. You may feel obliged but that is your morals and your choice, the obligation doesn't transfer to others. If karma worked the way you imply, you and your pious ilk would get to find nearly all such stuck nuts and live the most wonderful life from all the returns; experience shows us otherwise.

In reply to Everyone posting:

Bring back 1999-2002 when this site had good threads about actual climbing and the interesting things that go with it, rather than amateur lawyers pontificating about something as banal as a left nut.

If you are a climber, left nuts are par for the course and if you do enough, you will get them back in the long run, and if you don't, you will have such a good time it won't matter.

In reply to radddogg:

1 nut?! Definitely crag swag.

In reply to radddogg:


Which exposed hand traverse are we talking about exactly?

In reply to Le Chevalier Mal Fet:

Presumably from the pedestal to the exit crack... several variations possible.... no handed is fun.

In reply to Offwidth:
That's neither exposed nor a hand traverse.

In reply to Le Chevalier Mal Fet:

Never liked the term "crag swag". It's too easy, too glib. It's like "finders keepers" - never liked that one either. I always feel that people are preparing themselves to do something - how to put it? - not very creditworthy, and being able to use a dinky little rhyme somehow helps justify the deed.

That's not to say that there aren't situations where the only practical thing to do is keep the item. A single, obviously jammed nut high on a route, for example. Or a pound coin on the pavement. But let's judge each case on it's own merits, and do our best to arrive at a reasonably ethical course of action.

There are no "rules" that attach to the notion of crag swag - it's just an overused and, frankly, rather stupid little rhyme.

In reply to Mick Ward:


Touche!

However, 29 likes and 5 dislikes at the time of writing, so you didn't please everybody

In reply to Offwidth:

Good lord, are you still arguing the toss over crag swag?

I hoped that you learned your lesson after your flimsy arguments were demolished in a similar thread last year.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=575820&v=1#x7651202

In reply to andrewmcleod:




That happened to me in Wales on my last trip. My inexperienced second couldn't get my first nut out so left it in place with the quick draw clipped. Came down about half hour later to find it gone. I shrugged my shoulders as I found both a quick draw and a nut on the same trip. It's how it goes.

In reply to bpmclimb:



That's great for winding people up

In reply to smithaldo:

It's usually pretty easy to tell when a thread is about crag swag. In this case, the thread title is a big clue. This information can easily be used to avoid opening the thread.

They've been around as long as this site, and the arguments are exactly the same as ever. Here's an early example from 2002
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=29043

and a loooooong thread from 2004.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=86625


The first ever forum post seems to be from November 2001?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=1

Maybe earlier stuff wasn't stored.

In reply to THE.WALRUS:
First off I really hope you got that nut back.

Secondly that thread was a bit too long but contained some of my favorite posts in recent times (from Wicamoi esp) . Yet, the idea that any flimsy arguments were demolished is just daft ... there was a pretty robust debate with lots of agreement to disagree and a vote interestingly won by the pro WALRUS sect... showed me times have changed on UKC as a single nut would always have been crag swag in the early days of the site. Its not quite the same as this sitauation here, as your gear was special to you (at least until you contradicted yourself about it).

I will still buy you that pint ... my picture is in the front of the Froggatt guide so you can hunt me down.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

That's sort of my point. These threads are pointless as they have been done to death with those who agree, agreeing and those who disagree, disagreeing ad infinitum

Perhaps it was 2001 when the threads were started/good. I was trying to remember what I was doing when I first started looking at UKC and had it at somewhere between 1999 and 2002.

Oh for the days of 'top ten climbers', 'whose the best all rounder' 'best guidebook quote' etc that generated some great anecdotes and genuine humour.

In reply to smithaldo:
Its not all bad and it's in the nature of web forums to learn from our mistakes and repeat them exactly (nod to Peter Cook

An example:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=618129&v=1#x8069509

In reply to smithaldo:


http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=609129
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=620476

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Between you and steve that's three threads then. (albeit good ones!)

There isn't the room on the internet to post links to the rubbish that you wade through to get to those sorts of threads though. (most of which isn't actually even about climbing in any way shape or form)

And most of the choss quotes had been done before in the 'best guidebook quote' thread.

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

In reply to smithaldo:


Maybe we need a new thread about how recent guidebooks don't have enough memorable quotes in them...

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Nonsense: one of the great things in recent guides is the increased re-cycling of interesting old quotes.

In reply to Ciro:


Rubbish. I tag gear with my name and number and it ha absolutely no influence over the number of incidences where I need to abandon gear.

In reply to Ciro:

Nope, assuming it's stuck then they still gave up on getting it out and left it there. Hence they've deliberately abandoned it. Having a vague hope that someone more competent will come along and get it out and then put in the time and effort to get it back to you (all to save you the cost of a single nut) isn't the same as actually having an intention to come back and get it.

In reply to radddogg:

In the circumstances we are discussing a conscious decision will have been made to abandon the gear, whether because it was taking too long to remove, the climber was getting tired, night was coming on, or it was necessary to bale out. It may have been a reluctant decision, but nevertheless the gear has been deliberately abandoned. You may hope to go back for it later, but it's fair game, and if it's disappeared by the time you get back that's too bad. After all, if it has gone it means that it wasn't completely stuck and you gave up too early.

It should be easy to distinguish this from gear accidentally left behind. Gear abandoned during a rescue is a different matter, since the climber couldn't be expected to take time to recover it.

Nevertheless other climbers should act reasonably and considerately. It is clearly wrong to nip up a route to get gear while the climber is getting ready to ab down for it. A long mountain multi-pitch deserves a longer period of grace than a short gritstone climb. If the climber is around and can identify their gear, you should return it. However how much trouble you should have to go to go to in order to return something by post is a matter for the individual to decide, and I don't think it should be expected as of right, tagged or not.

There is inevitably attrition of gear, some by wear and tear, some by damage and some by loss. I've found gear, but I've lost gear as well. That's annoying, especially when it's an expensive or a favourite piece, but it's just part of climbing. Usually I'm just glad I've got out of the situation safely.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
I haven't seen the thread about Rockfax grade inflation and the UKC grade voting system pandering to the egos of mediocre climbers for a while. Can we have that one instead?

In reply to all:

Given that it's apparently ok to add weight to arguments, and help justify actions, by using a little rhyme, how about this - a climber who too readily invokes the so-called rules of "crag swag", and thereby doesn't make a reasonable effort to return lost property, will now be branded a "kit shit".

In reply to bpmclimb:

Rubish.

In reply to UKC:

If I find anything, anywhere, with the owner's details on it, I will make every effort to return it to them. No matter what the object is or how low / high the value. That's common decency, isn't it?

In reply to Climbingspike:



Rubbish, you mean?

Well, that's not entirely true. I can already think of a few kit shits I've come across, people who never return anything, ever; and I'll be quite happy to call them that in the future. Are you putting yourself forward as a candidate, perhaps?

In reply to abseil:


Yes. That's my view also.

Perhaps it's old-fashioned, but I still like the idea of a community in climbing - a set of people brought together by shared experiences, even if they haven't shared them together (if you see what I mean). A set of folk who understand the thrill and joyousness of it all.

I return gear for the same reason that I say hello to people at the crag.

In reply to bpmclimb: still think your little rhyme is rubbish.

In reply to JJL:

I also like the idea of the community of climbers, and if the gear in question has been lost or forgotten, then I will behave in the same way as you, attempting to return it to its owner (just as you or I would do with a lost property of a non-climber). But when it comes to abandoned gear (ie the only gear to which the crag swag ethic applies) I will not return labelled (or unlabelled) gear to its former owner.

One of the things that characterises a community is its ability to make up its own rules, to have sufficient cohesion to reject the rigid moral codes that may be more appropriate to less strongly linked groups, and to forge more effective ethics to deal with its own particular problems. The crag swag ethic is not, as many posters seem to think, selfish behaviour - it is in fact the exact opposite, it is an expression of the very community of which you say you like the idea.

In some ways the crag swag ethic is the finest achievement of climbing. Why? Because it is a moral code that is simple, perfect, easy, fair and fun! It is fair to all climbers. Any other system for dealing with abandoned gear allows cheats to prosper (or litter to accumulate). The modern fashion for attempting to return abandoned gear to individual (former) owners is a step away from a climbing community, and a step toward individualism. It is a sign that the cohesion of the community of climbers is weaker than it once was. In my view, if you don't understand and accept crag swag, you aren't yet truly a member of the climbing community - you're still too wedded to the mores of wider society.

In reply to abseil:

Yes, it's common decency - but it's not climbing decency.

In reply to JJL:




Crag Swag tradition IS a communal shared experience

In reply to Wicamoi:

In my view, if you don't understand and accept crag swag, you aren't yet truly a member of the climbing community - you're still too wedded to the mores of wider society.


But the "rules" of crag swag are too ill-defined. You still have to make a judgement in each case, i.e. is that gear genuinely abandoned? There may be clear cut cases at each end of the spectrum but many, perhaps most, swim around in the grey area in the middle. We have to decide according to our own personal sense of ethics, with an awareness that there is such a thing as stealing by finding in UK law, however unenforceable it may be. The issues are similar to (and as tricky) as, for example, finding money in the street.

I've been climbing in one way or another for decades, throughout the UK and abroad, and with numerous partners; I'm also a guidebook contributor and climbing instructor. I don't feel I have to subscribe to this quasi-Masonic cult of "crags swag" which you describe, in order to qualify as "truly" part of the climbing community. Frankly, I find it unpleasant, and don't want any part of it.

In reply to Wicamoi:


As you say, it's your view. I've been climbing for 49 years and I regard 'crag swag' as offensive for the reasons Brian noted so eloquently above.



Err... 'modern fashion'??? My stance about returning gear view was formed by an incident in the 1960s.

Your views are your views - but that's all they are. As must be evident to you from this thread, other people have rather different views.

Mick

In reply to bpmclimb:

Hi Brian,

Sorry, our posts have overlapped. (I'm probably starting to doze off at the keyboard - happens to us all!)


That's exactly how I feel.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

As a matter of interest how would you and bpmclimb have dealt with the OP's nut (assuming it didn't have the owners details on it) in the days before UKC ?

In reply to Mick Ward:

I really don't feel it is quasi masonic. I do find its a useful label for single pieces (or small amounts) of pretty clearly abandoned gear and cutting through largely bogus moral lines.

... morals are not as simple or as common as some here would portay and the anti crag swag brigade seem to me rather amorally pious with a sprinkling of consumerist individualism. To me people are the important thing in determining the boundaries of swag, not the indentifiability of the abandoned property. So return would be compelling for me in situations such as accidents, or significant amounts of gear clearly left (and not abandoned) or something with strong personal attachment (although people sometimes claim this on UKC in suspicious circumstances). At the other end some people do recycle the 'swag' for folk who on average need it more than the average original owner. Even on theft, others feel differently.... climbing biographies and even the odd autobiography detail outright theft in selfish support of climbing; more philosophically some believe most property is theft and despise the capitalist and consumerist world we live in.

In reply to bpmclimb:


'Crag Swag' isn't unique to climbing, its just an example of 'abandoned property'. Golfers lose and find golf balls all the time. If you run a hotel you will get people leaving luggage behind. Even just living in a flat I had a case where someone in one of the other flats moved out and left a couple of old bikes in the garage they couldn't be bothered to bring with them.

Climbing gear doesn't belong stuck in cliffs indefinitely, golf courses don't benefit from being covered in lost balls, abandoned luggage can't just stay in a hotel room for ever and nobody wants the shared garage in a block of flats cluttered up with previous tenants old bikes. That's why the law allows for people to dispose of abandoned property - use it themselves or chuck it. Obviously you need to apply reasonable criteria to determine if the property is, in fact, abandoned.

Taking abandoned gear out and trying to return it is very laudable, but taking it out and keeping it is also perfectly moral and a better option from the view of society at large than leaving it to rot in a cliff.

In reply to Offwidth:


Wow fascinating - I have also observed people holding the great philosophy "property is theft", and noticed with interest and amusement how fast that changes when they marry / have kids / want to buy a house, car, tons of other stuff. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

In reply to Ciro:


UK law?
That's enough to kindle my well concealed nationalist tendencies!

In reply to bpmclimb:


Do you? If its in the rock it's crag swag, if its not its lost

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


You've made it an "either or" situation. I don't think anyone is suggesting leaving gear in the cliff if you can remove it. The question is what to do with it next. I don't believe that it's "perfectly moral" to keep gear unless one can be sure that it has been abandoned. Gear remains on or near the crag for a variety of reasons, and the owner may intend returning for it.

In reply to radddogg:


Well I fundamentally disagree with that. What about a shiny new cam in the cliff, not stuck, easy to remove, but simply left by oversight, or for any of various other reasons?

In reply to bpmclimb:
The thread was always about stuck gear on a trad route. You are right that gear is sometimes left (sports projects etc) and that that isnt swag but given the more dubious morals of some climbers its always a big risk. I think your example about cams is a bit dodgy for similar reasons... most would leave a cheaper nut or sling if out of time but intending to return. Then there are those with arguably too many morals .... the ethics police... a mate of mine re-equipt all the lower-offs at Aldery a couple of years back with good quality static rope only to find all the easily accessible ones removed a few months later.

In reply to abseil:

Grow up. Many people have lived their entire adult lives as best they can according to marxist priciples, many of those married and with kids.

In reply to Offwidth:



Jesus! That sounds complicated

In general, if I find an item that is not clearly abandoned, and potentially of value to and missed by the owner, then I'll try to return it. For example: a (non-stuck) cam on a route, and a mobile phone on top of a car. I don't see much difference, and would try to return both. Personally, I don't think much of people who wouldn't make some attempt to return the cam (or the phone, for that matter). Is that piety? I'd describe it as a pretty mundane, workaday code of ethics.

In reply to Offwidth:

I think your example about cams is a bit dodgy

But cams are quite often left by mistake. Shiny new gear in general is often left in cliffs by relative beginners. It's not hard to imagine why; inexpertly placed, inexpertly removed, gripped on the route, whatever. It's not necessarily hardened pros like yourself making a tactical retreat from a route. For example, I would try to return a new-looking nut with a draw hanging off it, even if it did need a poke or two with a nut key.

In reply to Offwidth:


The OP said "found a nut below the pedestal… "
Nothing about it being stuck, unless I missed it.

In reply to bpmclimb:
I see a massive difference between a phone and a cam. I would certainly try and return a phone (even a cheap one) as people often don't back up their address book properly and might need quite a lot of effort otherwise to rebuild it. As for a cam it would depend... never an old one (many stuck cams I've found look like they should have been retired well before they were placed) but a brand new cam would depend.... possibly a bit less likely for me with an address label, but very likely if a poor climber pleaded their case on UKC. I accept your workaday ethics and your reasoning but I disagree slightly on the detail, so yes, looking down at me for my workaday ethics seems to me a little pious but not as pious as the growing numbers here who regard any such 'swag' where the owner is known as theft. I make a judgement on replacment costs with little moral regard for cheapish things. For me an old cam or a damaged nut is scrap. A new nut rarely worth the return effort and a new cam (depending on the type) getting into the range where return is likely.

I've taught hundreds of beginners often with their first outdoor route on something like Idwall Slabs. There is a lot you can do with showing them how to remove gear in advance and with utilising only placements less likely to get stuck (and avoiding ever using your favourite gear) . Its very rare I had problems... most of my stuck gear was when I was pushing myself on lead or just out having fun with similarly exoerinced leaders and not paying proper attention, and so needed my partner to be sympathetic in their efforts (which they normally are). The stuck gear seems to be mixing my situation with inexperienced seconds which seems to me to be part of the learning process.

In reply to radddogg:


You re kidding? Apologies for arriving late on this but do people really bother do that? I'd keep it on principle

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

A redundant question surely. The owner's name (and I'm glad you fully agree it is the owner) was on it and we do have UKC...

But, out of courtesy, I'll reply.

I'd have asked at the crag, maybe left a note at the bottom or in a local climber's pub or bunkhouse. I'd have done what I reasonably could.

What I wouldn't have done:

'After high fiving myself at scoring my first piece of crag booty in a size I didn't already have...'

Mick

In reply to Offwidth:

>...largely bogus moral lines.


As that lass in Taggart used to say, "Ye've lost me!"



Offhand, I can think of four leading climbers of the 1970s and 80s (and no, I'm not going to say who) who practised theft. Their example was taken up by a host of lesser figures. I disagreed then and I disagree now. But it was always their choice, their karma.


Is this relevant?


Look, it's obvious that we're not going to agree. Maybe better to leave it at that.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:


I don't believe for one moment that you would have done this for a nut that costs £11 brand new. We topped out at dusk and were the only remaining climbers. Do you really think the person who abandoned it would return to the area to traipse from pub to bunkhouse for hours?

Anyway in case you didn't read the full thread I contacted the owner who had already ordered a replacement and told me to keep it which as a new climber with a partial rack I gratefully accepted.

In reply to bpmclimb:

You clearly didn't read the full thread. It was in the rock 40' off the ground. Besides which why would I post that it was below the pedestal if I meant it was on the ground?

In reply to radddogg:


Believe what you choose to believe - about somebody you've never met.

Mick

In reply to radddogg:




My post said "stuck" not just "in the rock" or "off the ground". There's nothing in your OP about it being stuck. Could be simply placed, or sitting on a ledge.

In any case, I did say "unless I missed something". There are 138 posts on this thread!

Just been back to check. You put a post up at number 12 in which you provide further information. To quote you directly "I don't think it was stuck as I just put my finger through the wire loop and pulled upwards hard and it came free".

I suggest that if you're going to wade in and accuse someone of "clearly" not having read the whole of a 138-post, you should at least read the post to which you're replying properly, and also keep a more accurate memory of the content of your own posts. Or scroll back and check.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Bogus moral lines would be ones that have no sense or consistency. What is the logical reasoning for the return of a nut when they can be had new for £5 to £11 (depending on deals) and as new on the web for sometimes below £5. The combined cost on the returner and the cost of postage (a few quid now for 40g) would mean we all lose out compared to the swag rules (where a private seller or better still a manufacturer, gets to make a bit of cash as well). The law is clear in the case of abandoned gear and I'm not at all convinced of the goodness attached to returning low value things at a financial cost (unless there is a genuine attachment... which makes it strange in the case of a nut that it was used in a position likely to get stuck in the first place).

I once had a friend of a friend phone me who said he had been told that I had his nut (I didn't and he was only told I might have it) but he then explained how I had to drive round and return it to him as he hadn't got any transport at that time and was broke, (he smoked and drank a lot but that must, have been a medical condition). I also had the Roaches gear troll try and sell me back an old Friend 1 which I'd left in a heavy shower, so yes I'm amazed sometimes at my fellow climbers but I don't see honesty within the bounds of financial sense as immoral.

My point on the 'property is theft' issue is not everyone places value on things in the same way. I'm not convinced by marxist arguments but I do believe it would be moral to focus more on people and less on things in our consumerist modern world.

In reply to Wicamoi:


That's all fine - if you want to be part of that community. Let it hereby be declared that I do NOT want to be part of that community. I will be part of the community that will take every reasonable effort to return gear to its rightful owner without judgement of how they lost it, whether through inexperience or accident. I have just returned a tagged steel screwgate to someone even though they said I could keep it (they mistakenly thought it would cost to much to post). If I genuinely get a nut stuck and can't retrieve it, and somebody tries harder/better than me and does retrieve it, it will of course be my pleasure to gift it to them if they get in touch. You can know I will be part of this community by the tags on my gear.

Those of you who wish to engage in this 'crag swag' (an apt name, since 'swag' means 'stolen goods') should consider marking their gear so that people know they are part of that community. I will continue attempting to reunite people with their gear regardless (since I will not be benefiting from the crag swag community).

In reply to Offwidth:


I just posted a steel screwgate as a large letter, 2nd class, for £1.19; hardly extortion.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

I was told I'd have to use the small parcel for postage of climbing gear.

In reply to Offwidth:
Must have been over 2.5cm thick at which point unfortunately the price does jump somewhat (Large Letter goes up to 750g for £2.05, so its more of a thickness issue than weight). I guess the largest nut sizes would be too thick, annoyingly...

In reply to Wicamoi:

>it is a moral code that is simple, perfect, easy, fair and fun!

I quite agree. I love finding gear at the crag; it just doesn't happen often enough! And if I have to ab off or can't get a nut out I accept that it's too bad and I'll probably have to replace it. It may end up being someone else's good fortune.

In reply to Michael Gordon:




What a simple world some of you live in! In the crag = good, elsewhere = bad. Goodies and baddies, cowboys and Indians - no grey areas at all. Well, I suppose it saves having to think any further on the matter. Very different, I have to say, to the world I live in, which is mostly composed of grey areas, and matters of ethics are much more complicated.

In reply to bpmclimb: too complicated in your case... the finance issue alone means return of a single easily replaceble nut is usually daft ... and your argument seems to be self contradictory... the moral case, being very grey, remains divided (your opinion isn't universally accepted by other morally motivated climbers).

In reply to andrewmcleod:


This is of course the proper response. It acknowledges that by abandoning the gear you have effectively relinquished your moral rights to it and that the decent thing to do is allow the finder to keep it.

However your response raises other ethical questions. If you have found gear and traced the owner, who has said you can keep it, is it then ethical to return it to them anyway? You then put them in the position of being obliged to reimburse you the cost of postage, perhaps together with the price of a pint, for the return of a piece of gear they may have written off and perhaps already replaced? You've also robbed them of the "pleasure of gifting it" to you.

In principle, now we have ways of tagging gear and internet forums to make it easier to communicate then there is less excuse for not trying to return found gear. However it can make things very complicated, as the above examples indicate. It makes me think those who subscribe to this point of view are living in a permanent state of uncertainty and frustration, wondering whether their lost nut has been retrieved and if so whether it will be returned, combined with anger at the unknown finder who might have kept it as crag swag?

The crag swag ethic (and it is an ethic, and is more nuanced than "finders keepers") is much simpler and leaves everyone in a calmer state of mind. When you abandon gear you know it is gone, and you have the pleasure of gifting it to whoever may retrieve it. You have no expectations and therefore no worries. You can replace it without wondering whether it will later turn up and whether you will then be obliged to pay more than it's worth to get it back. You know that in time it will be your turn to find gear, which you can keep with a clear conscience. Far less trouble and fewer moral dilemmas all round.

In reply to Howard J:
It's a bit one way though... gear tends to flow from the less competant to the more competant. The internet allows that to be rectified... an honest admission (and an obvious beginner CV) makes a return way more likely from me than say to a UKC regular who should know better than getting gear stuck yet rather sadly gear tags his nuts.

In reply to Offwidth:


Oi I tag all my nuts, maybe one day an attractive young lady will find one and think "a guy who owns such a shiny nut must be well cool, thank god he put his phone number on it"

In reply to timjones:

Double delusion!

In reply to Offwidth:

And now you're shattering my dreams

In reply to Offwidth:




I've already conceded (repeatedly) that most would not bother (quite reasonably) to return a single nut if in a used condition and stuck in the cliff. For a new nut, maybe not particularly stuck, maybe with a quickdraw hanging on it, or a cam (as already discussed) the equation starts to change. A rope hanging in situ, different again. The logical conclusion is that circumstances alter cases. The exact point at which a sense of obligation to return gear starts to kick in will, of course, vary from climber to climber. I don't believe that, reasonably, the decision which has to be made in each case should be conveniently side-stepped by a slavish adherence to a rigid set of rules. So I would argue that a full appreciation of ethical grey areas is incompatible with "crag swag" mentality.

In a way, I think you yourself support my argument, or at least we may be more in agreement than it might appear. Most "pro crag swag" posts on this thread seem to subscribe to the simplistic "in the crag = abandoned = I can have it" philosophy, with seemingly no room for grey areas at all. Whereas you seem to leave room for different cases, and talk about recycling gear to impecunious climbers; we also know that you spend much voluntary time (as I do) in ways that benefit the climbing community. So I don't have any fear for the intactness of your principles and, in that regard, I don't see you as a "true crag-swagger".

For what one might call the "true" crag swagger, anything found in the cliff is fair game, regardless of circumstances. I dislike the concept because the supposed "rules" are rigid. Not all climbers are "morally motivated" as you put it, and some are downright scallywags. For the latter, "crag swag" simply becomes a convenient justification indiscriminately to keep stuff. Clare and I once lost a new tricam to a crag-swagger; we had just finished a single pitch climb and were intending to ab down to retrieve it, but he got in quickly and sneakily while our backs were turned - he knew full well we were still at the crag. No doubt high-fiving himself as he made off down the track, triumphantly chanting "crag swag, crag swag". I would call him a common thief. Or, in my new parlance, a kit shit.

To come at this from the other end, so to speak: what's so bad about erring on the side of common decency? Why not foster some goodwill by returning that piece of gear, even if it seems marginal financially? It's always a possibility that it could mean a great deal to the person getting it back. At the end of the day, "crag swag rules" aren't compulsory … despite the efforts of that one poster who wanted to disqualify me from "true membership of the climbing community" on that basis

In reply to Howard J:

Far less trouble and fewer moral dilemmas all round.


Maybe.

But you exaggerate, almost to the point of absurdity, difficulties in attempting to return lost property. A quick post on Lost and Found does the job, followed by an arrangement to meet up, to post, or just a "thanks, but keep it". Hardly taxing, and more often than not you don't get a reply at all.

Also, I'm not sure I care for the concept of going through life avoiding trouble and moral dilemmas. Especially the latter!

In reply to Howard J:

Indeed - although in this case a) I know the exact story behind why the nut was still there, and b) I get to explicitly gift it. I would not want to keep a nut that an inexperienced pair, for example, have left behind - e.g. the second has missed it/dropped it/not understood how to retrieve it, and the leader has not been competent/not been confident to/not had the tides, gear or daylight to abseil and retrieve it. I would never want to punish someone for inexperience (as opposed to incompetence, which is not the same thing).


I just did this - I just didn't ask for the postage back (I'm sure they'll survive without the pleasure of 'gifting' it to me).


Erm... this thread? :P

In reply to bpmclimb:


Of course circumstances vary and it's a personal judgement call each time.

In reply to bpmclimb:

I can agree with that.

In reply to andrewmcleod

I just don't buy that as being common with best practice. I've climbed with more beginners than I can remember and just haven't had problems. The gear between belays in such situations isn't placed to secure my lead (other than an exceptional slip) because if I'm not happy solo on such terrain the route is too hard. Gear should be in good placements, easy to remove to simulate the trad process for the learning second. As I said, alll my stuck gear problems were through urgency on lead or climbing without proper focus with near equals. If gear is commonly stuck due to beginners I think the leader is probably doing something wrong (like climbing too hard a grade, rushing, distracted, showing off, etc)

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Exactly! What a humourless (and pointless) task it is to try to re-unite every abandoned nut with its former owner, when instead one could simply have a laugh about what's lost and what's won.

I suppose those who feel guilt when they recover a nut they can't return are depressed when they are forced to deploy it on a route - whereas you and I take a special delight in placing crag swagged gear. Why shouldn't gear be shared? I understand (and respect) the moral compunction of those who reject this view and believe that all exchange of property without payment is theft, but, you know, sanctimonious moral scruples are all well and good when they actually achieve something!

I doubt many of us would object to swapping a random piece of gear with Johnny Dawes - and that, in essence, is crag swag.

In reply to Wicamoi:


Thank you.



Although the 'sanctimonious' makes me wonder just how much you really do understand (and respect)?

I guess it's probably better for us all to leave things as they are. This seems to be a subject about which people have sharply differing views. Maybe we just have to agree to disagree. So it goes...

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:
Mick Ward, sanctimonious? Never. Intellectually superior? Perhaps a smidgeon?

Trust you are keeping well?

Al

In reply to Mick Ward:

Hi Mick - I really do respect your views, and I was a bit ashamed that my views had evidently upset you. Sorry for that. I'm definitely not accusing you of sanctimony, but there are some on your side of the argument that are sanctimonious, just as there are some on my side that are rapacious.

In reply to Wicamoi:


Yes, of course it would be. But no-one is suggesting anything as extreme as that. It's as if you're having an argument with an imaginary opponent, rather than answering anyone who's actually posted on this thread.

In reply to bpmclimb:

I was rather hoping that the more perspicacious of my readers would have realised that the pointlessness of trying to re-unite every abandoned nut with its former owner is the vital spark of the crag swag ethic. If you have a critique of the crag swag principle, other than your objection to its name, which I must admit I share, do let me know, and I will engage with you rather than an "imaginary opponent."

In reply to radddogg:

It's a disposable £8 nut. They serve there purpose and sometimes you have to leave one. I don't see what all the fuss is about? Why burden someone with paying postage for such an item?

In reply to GridNorth:

Hi Al,

You make me sound like a poor woman's Jim Perrin - huh, I should be so lucky!

Was wondering whether to email you. I gather Keith and you have been to see Bill. It will have meant a lot to him. A bit of a shocker.

I guess we all just bimble along, taking each day as it comes, being grateful, savouring the memories of the great routes we've done, hoping there are a few more to come.

Best wishes,

Mick

In reply to Wicamoi:

I agree, sanctimony and rapacity are both to be avoided. I'm sure there's a sweet spot, somewhere in between. And I apologise in turn if I've upset you - didn't mean to. It may be that my views are too heavily influenced by a story I heard in my teens about a returned peg. The people came from such different worlds. The political differences alone were about as deep as the Grand Canyon (and, 45 years on in that country, have never really been resolved, just swept under the table). Returning the peg - a gentlemanly act - seemed like a bridge between them, some dimension however transient where they could meet. It influenced me greatly - perhaps too much.

Best wishes,

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

There are exceptions to any rule. Even the sanctimonious and rapacious do the odd good deed, but I wont be flag waving for either set anytime soon. Typical climbers, with their quaint ethical oddities like 'swag', seem to me as a whole, kinder and less hypocritical on average than the general population and certainly in my experience more so than my pretty wide average experience of the publicly religious or political idealogues (who of course pride themselves on their morals).

In reply to Mick Ward:

Well, is the lesson then that there's more than one kind of climbing community, and that there are other things more important than any of them? We already know this, of course, but are sometimes a little prone to forget when we are busy making our own points - or at least I am. I wouldn't wish to see 'crag swag' as a strict, un-bendable ethic - life is always more nuanced than that, and the sweet spot you mention is ever-shifting - but I do think of it as a useful baseline.

Your peg story sounds interesting. Would you share it?

In reply to Wicamoi:

About 1970 I used to go to a place called Ballygalley, a small basalt crag on the coast, about thirty miles north of Belfast, a kind of miniature version of Fair Head. A guy called Des Agnew owned a hotel locally; he’d helped develop the crag. He’d drive by to check out who was there. I guess he felt a little proprietorial. He’d sit in his car and watch you, then get out and come over.

One time I asked him about Fair Head, which was in its infancy (eight routes!) Des casually mentioned that he’d tried the first ascent of the very first route. He’d got maybe about 80 feet up, realised it was too loose for ground-up (not that the term then existed), banged in a peg and abbed off. It was probably a ring peg, so you didn’t need to leave a krab. A lot of those old 60s pegs were for European limestone, not granite or basalt. Not really the best means of retreat but all you had back then.

A while later, a guy called Emmett Goulding had a go. Emmett was a kind of Irish Joe Brown, marvellously talented, the best climber in the country. I never met him but you can imagine, as a silly 16 year old, I pretty much hero-worshipped him. Anyway Emmett got to the same high point as Des and came to the same conclusion. But, unlike Des, he didn’t ab off. He took out Des’s peg and reversed (gulp!) Then, according to Des, “he sought me out and returned the peg.”

“Was he taking the piss?” I asked. (Yeah, I know, cringeworthy, I was so, so immature!) Des fixed me with a steely stare. Very quietly, yet with immense dignity, he replied. “No he wasn’t. Emmett was simply being Emmett - the perfect gentleman.”

This brought me up short. If my hero behaved in such a gentlemanly fashion, then… maybe I should. Of course I didn’t turn into a icon of propriety overnight and I’m not one even now but… the seed was sown. And, as the decades went by, that seed ripened. Slowly, very, very slowly, I began to realise that how we conduct ourselves on and off the crags ultimately matters far more than how hard we can crimp or how long we can deadhang. Emmett’s lesson to me was one of pure example. He never knew of it.

Des and Emmett. Well, even as the dumbest 16 year old going, I couldn’t afford to be totally socially blind. I’d grown up in arguably the most tribal country in western Europe. My guess (it’s only a guess) is that Des was a pillar of the business establishment, kind of the guy running the local Masonic lodge. Back then, if you didn’t own your house, you didn’t have a vote. And if you were a landlord, with six houses, you had six votes. Not Des’s doing, not at all. But still the world he swum in. And Emmett? His brother was Cathal Goulding, commander of chief of the official IRA. Now the official IRA was a world apart from the provisional IRA who supplanted them viciously. I never agreed with Cathal Gouding’s politics - Marxist/Leninist; I think he wanted Ireland to be a Marxist state akin to Cuba. And I never agreed with his means. But I will always have a huge respect for his integrity. Emmett, of similar integrity, wasn’t a politician, he was what we’d now regard as a dirt-bag climber. But my guess (a guess) is that he would have been very left-wing indeed. And he was probably terribly poor. That hardly won peg could probably have come in handy for an Alpine north face. Des wouldn’t have missed it and would certainly have regarded it as fair game. Yet Emmett chose to give it back.

So, as the country was about to rip itself apart with 40 years of terrorism, body parts strewn wantonly all over the place, here were these two figures, from two entirely opposite ends of the social and political spectrum. And yet one could be the perfect gentleman. And the other could acknowledge it with immense dignity.

This tiny vignette has given me enduring hope that people, even of hugely opposed views, could meet simply through a shared sense of honour, could leave all the other stuff behind just for a little while, could find an enclave of decency, which maybe – just maybe – might help to put their differences into a context of common humanity. Ultimately two things are for sure; we’re all on this planet together and none of us is on it for very long.

Des died in the Alps in the mid 70s; his heart gave out on him. He died fighting the good fight, which is probably the best that any of us can wish for. Emmett died recently, after prolonged cancer. Back in the 1990s, I phoned him to ask him urgently for help with an article about one of his former climbing partners. By then he was old and tired and the next day he had a gruelling six hour trip each way across Ireland on crap roads in crap weather for the funeral of another former climbing partner. But, when I tentatively phoned the following evening, he’d pulled out all the stops to get me what I needed. For Des – and, all those years later, for me – he was indeed, ‘the perfect gentleman’.

Emmett’s example had a huge impact on me. Maybe it will resonate with a few others also.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:
Great story there Mick, and well told. It makes wading through all the quasi-legal drivel about stuck wires worthwhile.

Tom

In reply to Ciro:

Theft by finding, if you do not hand to the police then get it back from them after X time ........ was, think still the law
As the OP knows who the owner is,,,,,,,, he is on sticky ground

In reply to Mick Ward:

I feel much richer for having read that, Mick. Many thanks for taking the time and trouble to share it.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Thanks so much for taking the time and effort to tell the story Mick - it was even more interesting than I had anticipated. Should I ever find an abandoned nut with Mick Ward's address label on it, I will break with my normal practice and return it, first class.

In reply to Mick Ward:

The trouble with the swag debate is that both camps genuinely see their favoured system as community spirited, binding climbers together in a positive way. Obviously those who favour going to the effort of returnng a stuck wire see their action noble. Equally, those who favour the swag ethic like the idea of fluidity of ownership and lack of possessiveness.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm sure you're absolutely right and I'm far too influenced by that story above. But I'm glad people seem to have liked it and I thank them for thanking me. Climbing is such an intense pursuit; it gives rise to some fascinating encounters.

Mick

In reply to google:

You clearly have no sense of irony posting that after Trip. Some police forces no longer take lost property and some charge for out of area loss reports (usually £3.95 for some odd reason) all of which was already discussed above in the thread. Here for instance is the new Met line : http://content.met.police.uk/Article/Lost-and-Found-Property/1400026020816/...

......Great story Mick.

In reply to Offwidth:

I was simply saying what I believe the law to be, and that one could be open to prosecution........... how ever unlikely.

The fact the Police do, or do not support the law will not alter it.
the offence of theft by finding, is relevant as the owner is known.
Had the owner not been known, you could look at stealing from person or persons unknown.

Irony, posts had crossed in the 'post' as it were, when saw my post added I even gave a like to Trip's.
However that aside ironic or not, I do not feel obliged to follow the last post, indeed I was responding to much earlier one.

have a good day

In reply to google:

According to the CPS's guidelines, "In order to be capable of being stolen, property must, at the time of appropriation, 'belong to another'. If property has been abandoned then it has no owner. It cannot be stolen."

Gear left in a crag where the original owner is no longer around can reasonably be considered to be abandoned. On the other hand, gear left in a single-pitch route where the climber is about to make an effort to retrieve it clearly isn't abandoned. However in my view, purloining gear in those circumstances could never be justified as crag swag.

The difficulty is that there are conflicting and incompatible views on what should be the correct approach. I suggest the following, which I feel balances both points of view:

- If someone has abandoned gear they have given up their legal title to it. If they nevertheless hope for it to be returned, the onus is on them, by tagging their gear and/or posting asking for its return

- if someone finds untagged gear, they should look to see if anyone has posted but the onus is not on them to post themselves, although of course there is nothing to stop them. Otherwise, untagged gear can be considered crag swag, and by not tagging or posting the owner can be presumed to accept this.

- if someone finds tagged gear they should make an effort to contact the owner, as by doing so the owner has made it clear they do not subscribe to the crag swag view of life

- the original owner should expect to pay postage, packing for the return of the gear and should offer to buy a pint to the finder.

To be clear, this refers only to stuck/abandoned gear. Rucksacks, clothing, racks and ropes left lying around at the foot or top of a crag , jewellery, dogs and children cannot be considered 'abandoned', they are just lost.

In reply to Howard J:

I think this tagged gear point is not a distinction in any practical application of law for something like a nut. Firstly it is clearly possible to abandon something with your name on it and if the resonable expectation is the piece was abandoned (ie pretty certain if stuck) the gear belongs to the finder. Secondly all you have to do to avoid theft by finding (if the item was lost and not abandoned) is make a "reasonable attempt" to return. If the costs match or exceed any attempt it is reasonable not to return, tag or non. Its the same as finding a pound coin in the street. People bringing law into this for small cost items are being silly: the issue is simply one of morals.

In reply to Howard J:

"if someone finds tagged gear they should make an effort to contact the owner, as by doing so the owner has made it clear they do not subscribe to the crag swag view of life"

I rather suspect that the degree to which the founder of the aforementioned gear subscribes to the crag swag view of life is what matters here, to all practical intents and purposes!

In reply to google:

Immutable laws eh? You need to cut down on the Judge Dredd comics. Theft by finding is nothing like as easy to prove as you think and since any attempt to involve the police is almost certainly going to get you nowhere the only practical legal route is civil. There you will find small claims decisions on grey areas apply way more common sense than impled in your rigid post and the cost of application acts as the obvious disincentive for sanctimony driven claims on flimsy grounds. The return or retention of a tagged stuck nut is really only a moral issue.

In reply to Mick Ward:

What a lovely thing to read. Thank you for taking the time to write that.

In reply to Mick Ward:

A nice reminder that moral, ethical and legal standards do not necessarily coincide and do not need to for a person to behave well.

In reply to Offwidth:


I quite agree. If it's abandoned, you've given up your right of ownership, tagged or not. However it's an indication that the owner does not subscribe to the crag swag ethic, part of which is "what goes around comes around". I will accept crag swag with a clear conscience because I'm prepared to lose gear on the same basis, but if they're not willing to play that game then I will respect that. However the onus is on them to pay the costs of postage.

What I find surprising is that people seek the return of low-cost items such as nuts (losing a £60 cam is another matter). If someone were to go to the trouble of packing up and posting lost gear to me I'd want to recompense them with at least the price of a pint on top of their actual costs. You're looking at least £5, possibly more, for the return of a used and probably now severely battered nut, when for a very little more you could simply replace it with a brand new one. Why bother?

In reply to Offwidth:

Yes - but you know what you are doing!

I am thinking more of pairs of inexperienced climbers. I am thinking of a super-keen student friend of mine (and his climbing partner). Not having vast sums of cash, he acquired and reslung a rack of rigid friends off Ebay. On one VDiff they bailed by abseiling off a thread on tat but it could have been gear instead. They have recently (and proudly) led their first Severe. They are not in a position to treat nuts as disposable but at the same time as they are potentially more likely to end up losing it (and I would rather they lost some gear than got into trouble, or ended up needing a rescue). Personally I think (as I am sure you do and I suspect most other people do) that beginners should be encouraged, rather than criticised, with a recognition that everyone makes mistakes...

Good judgement comes from experience, and experience from bad judgement, as they say. Crag swag will naturally cause a flow of gear from those less-experienced to those more-experienced.

In reply to andrewmcleod:
I started that way with others of a similar ilk. We were so keen we almost immediately thought hard about placement (for recovery) and would work long and hard to recover gear on the 'stickier' placements on limestone crags; and because we spent so long quite often when our competance failed someone came along and helped us. Your scenarios just don't add up. I say lack of attention of an experienced enough leader or a leader pushing a bit too hard (and placing in panic) or the plain can't be arsed (including some inexperienced climbers but the not arsed bit being the real problem) , leads to most abandoned stuck gear that isn't incident related (accidents downpours, etc).

Less competant to more competant isn't the same as less experienced to more experienced. Gear flowed to us quickly in out keen inexperience, especially at Wildcat. To this day most gear I help recover 'on crag' to help the struggling is for climbers one or both of whom are experienced enough.

In reply to Howard J:

PS. this post is nothing to do with climbing.
We know how two sides can be put circumstances to support a view, the CPS live on it.
Thinking, then. If I abandon item x say a old washing machine, the scrap chap picks it up. But if its not colleted I would have to move it, or would I as abandoned property is not in ownership?
yes Fly tipping as at that time it was not abandoned, so one could be Add up for that!

I do take you point thought, and as others say not much [no] likelihood of any action being taken.

Another that came to mind with the CPS quote was that of sea cliffs, the foreshores being crown estate, would that change things?

In reply to google:

I'm not sure what your point is. Fly tipping and littering are offences in themselves. The question is ownership of the abandoned goods. If you'd abandoned the washing machine you would then have no claim against the scrap merchant who recovered it. The same applies to abandoned climbing gear.

I don't think ownership of the land where it took place is relevant.

In reply to Offwidth:

Oh, sorry about my lack of commonsense, that's life.
Please don't reed too much into the posts. I don't see myself taking civil recovery action just now.

In reply to Howard J:

no claim against scrap chap, as'' I'' am know longer the owner, of course tipping is the offense.

point is, Under what Act do we get fly tipper to clean up if they no longer own the tipping?

Maritime law has some thing about wrecks and whats on the foreshore , ___________________ I have even less knowledge about that.

In reply to google:

If you're going down that route then it could just as easily be argued that anyone leaving gear in a route is guilty of littering, and potentially subject to a fine for doing so.

But to do so would be - like all legal and pseudo-legal references depressingly trotted out above - missing the point of the thread by an irreconcilable margin.

In reply to john arran:

so back on topic then------------

sorry sit this one out! But Mick Wards post sums it up well, and we all [if we have one ] live with our consonance.

In reply to google:

Well now you've lost me completely. I clearly am not smart enough to keep up, so I'll take your advice and sit this one out.

In reply to google:


Fly tipping is contrary to Section 33(1)(a) of the Environmental Protection Act 1990. The offence is in the act of fly tipping, not the legal ownership of the waste. But this is irrelevant to the matter in question, which it has been pointed out several times is not a question of legality but what is accepted climbing practice.

In reply to radddogg:
If it's tagged, I would phone or text and arrange to leave it hidden under an obvious rock etc at the crag so the person could pick it up at their convenience (I would say that going to the trouble of posting a nut or QD is a bit too much to expect). I've done this the only time I've found tagged gear.

Also if it's valuable like a cam or a cluster of gear used to ab off (have come across that a couple of times on sea cliffs of all places!) or obviously forgotten/dropped rather than stuck, I tend to have a look for any comments on the logs or the lost and found forum.

An untagged stuck but is fair game though.

Once found a single glove tumbling down a winter route. Managed to reunite it with its owner a few days later.

In reply to Misha:


Sounds like a potentially solution, and only costs you a text - unless they are not local.

I agree that anyone expecting you to post something to them, without offering fair compensation, is being a cheapskate and can sort out collection themselves!

In reply to Offwidth:


You have probably rescued a lot more gear than I have, so I should probably believe you (although it is pretty depressing to think that most gear is left behind by people who should know better...)

In reply to radddogg:

I hate to buck the trend here, but if it's labelled I'd call the owner and tell them they are welcome to collect the nut from me. If it's too much effort/expense for them to collect I'm sure they will say "keep it".

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Found a nut + quick draw today in a route on stony. Lost one the other week. Boom

In reply to jimjimjim:

The balance is restored. cragswag lives on

In reply to radddogg:

Mashing the end of the wire is not on if you get it stuck by the way - that's just sour grapes! Anyway, I'll keep the wire I found on Thin Red line last week for hanging my shunt weight on. (it took under 10 seconds to get out btw - try harder next time)

In reply to Bulls Crack:


Not the most appropriate Aesop's Fable to describe that situation. Offhand I can't think which one is, though …

In reply to bpmclimb:


Dog in the manger?

In reply to nwclimber:


I am not my brother's gear keeper?

In reply to abseil:

There's a phrase "if I can't have you, nobody else can" (which is often used just before a jealousy-inspired murder, apparently).

In reply to bpmclimb:

Very true! Dog in manger then but not sure if this is one of his!

In reply to bpmclimb:


Thank you. Also used [I hear] by impecunious seaside restaurant patrons who pull lobsters out of tanks and chuck them back in the sea.....