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Best (semi-)auto-locking belay device?

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 humptydumpty 19 Aug 2015
I'm looking for a belay device for a small belayer who's afraid of catapulting into the rock, getting knocked unconscious and letting go of the leader. Preferably with same action as a normal belay plate (e.g. DMM Bug, BD ATC) for belaying and abbing, and works with singles or halves.

The only device I can see that fits the bill is the Climbing Technology Alpine Up - the Mammut Smart Alpine would also be a contender, but doesn't work on ropes bigger than 9.5mm (apparently). Are there alternatives that are worth considering? Would it be simpler just to get a grigri for sport, and promise not to fall off when climbing trad?
 Eciton 19 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:

Have a look at the Elderid MegaJul, takes both single and half/twin ropes. It is smaller and easier to handle than the Alpine up, but requires a slightly different belaying technique.
Wiley Coyote2 19 Aug 2015
In reply to Eciton:

Very pleased with the Click Up. We bought one for Mrs C and it works very well. Simple to use and very hard to mis-use. Even threaded upside down it still works like a normal ATC-style device.
 tmawer 19 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:

Would agree that the Megajul is worth thinking about, although I would consider it semi locking rather than locking, certainly when used with a single rope, my sense is that it locks better with double ropes but have not tried letting go!
 HeMa 19 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:

For sport, GriGri still seems the de-facto standard. Although the new Camp offering seems interesting.

For trad, tie the belayer down...
 Puppythedog 19 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:

Mammut Smart or alpine smart for halves is what i would buy now. I have a GriGri and am very happy with it but would not fork out the new price for one.
 David Coley 19 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:

I'd just get a Grigri until they get their head around holding you.
Reasons:
1. any concerns over extra forces on gear probably don't matter as you won't be getting all marginal I'm guessing. And as they are light it will probably come out the same as with fat old me holding your ropes.
2. If you have concerns over them holding the rope in an unexpected fall a single rope is far less complex than doubles.
 whenry 19 Aug 2015
In reply to tmawer:

The Megajul is ok, but it doesn't always lock, or brake very well - even on halves. Having had ropes slip through it, there's no way I'd suggest anyone even contemplate using it hands free - sometimes it locks beautifully, but at other times it performs worse than a Reverso.

For sport climbing, just get a Grigri.
 TobyA 19 Aug 2015
In reply to whenry:

> The Megajul is ok, but it doesn't always lock, or brake very well - even on halves. Having had ropes slip through it,

Really? What happened?

I've had a megajul for over a year, and have always found the opposite - you have to keep on the ball to stop it locking up, regardless of whether its doubles or a single. I've been using it for sport climbing a lot recently and its very like using a grigri. Slow feeds work fine, but if you don't anticipate the leader grabbing some slack and step in as you pay out, it will lock up.

So I'm interested to know how you got ropes to slip?
 Eciton 19 Aug 2015
In reply to whenry:
> The Megajul is ok, but it doesn't always lock, or brake very well - even on halves. Having had ropes slip through it, there's no way I'd suggest anyone even contemplate using it hands free - sometimes it locks beautifully, but at other times it performs worse than a Reverso.

I have heard this before, but usually this has happened because of the Karabiner being use. I am using the Karabiner that comes up with the CT Alpine up, which is a big fat HMS locker, and it works great. What karabiner are you using?

As it has been said above this is not a hands free belay device (but none is!).
Post edited at 12:14
 whenry 19 Aug 2015
In reply to TobyA:

I don't use it for sport climbing - I find it's a bit too sticky. When the ropes have slipped, it's been on 8.5mm halves, both when holding a fall and when taking in tight. I had to grip the ropes substantially harder than I would on a Reverso. It could be the caribiner - I use a Petzl something or other.
 Robert Durran 19 Aug 2015
In reply to whenry:

> The Megajul is ok, but it doesn't always lock, or brake very well - even on halves.

I suspect you are using inappropriate rope diameter and or/krab. As Toby says, when used correctly, the issue is likely to be too much rather than too little locking until you get used to it.

> For sport climbing, just get a Grigri.

A Click Up is superb and, unlike a Grigri, has the same belaying action as a conventional device (as required by the OP).

 Bimble 19 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:

The missus uses a Mammut Smart when belaying me, and it works fine, even with cacked-up climbing wall ropes. Takes a bit of practice to get lower-offs smooth (as my gonads can confirm), but not bad at all.
 iksander 19 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:

The Black-Red Alpine Smart can handle 8.9 - 10.5mm ropes, it's fine with most modern single ropes. I've also got an Alpine Up which is heavier and bulkier, but with a more aggressive autoblock action when in click up mode.
 TobyA 19 Aug 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I suspect you are using inappropriate rope diameter and or/krab.

That may well be true, but Edelrid (and other brands) should really clearly state it in their instructions if a certain type of krab is needed. They were fuzzy in their instructions about rope size also - as I note in this rope review http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=6738

FWIW I've used the mega jul with a round bar stock HMS (a heavyish 'old school' type) and with newer, lighter "I beam" designed HMSs and haven't had problems with either when belaying. Had a bit of 'mare last week abbing down a route using the megajul in locking mode with a roundbar HMS krab. It locked so hard that it was really hard to release it enough to descend. Of course, much better than the opposite problem, but difficult all the same!

I just bought one of these http://www.edelrid.de/en/sports/carabiners-quickdraws/hms-strike-slider-fg-... and that seems to work very well with the Mega Jul.
 Coel Hellier 19 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:

Personally I'd get a Click Up for single-rope sport/indoors, and a Mega Jul for two-rope trad.

You could get one of the ones that does both, but they're bigger and heavier and costlier, so I'd go with separate devices.
 Mike Stretford 19 Aug 2015
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> Personally I'd get a Click Up for single-rope sport/indoors, and a Mega Jul for two-rope trad.

> You could get one of the ones that does both, but they're bigger and heavier and costlier, so I'd go with separate devices.

Same sentiment but I'd go Gri-Gri 2 and atc xp.
 CPH 19 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:

Click up...sport
Alpine up...traditional
 John Kelly 19 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:
Personally didn't find megajul great, too grabby for trad, disconcerting on rappel, not sure why I need guide function I'm not a guide!!
In reply to humptydumpty:

Mrs Paul_in_Sheffield is extremely light, and uses a grigri 2. This often helps her lower back down from the first bolt when I take a proper whipper.
 Robert Durran 19 Aug 2015
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> Same sentiment but I'd go Gri-Gri 2 and atc xp.

Neither of which meet the Op's criteria; Grigri does not have "normal" belaying action, ATC XP is not (semi)autolocking.
 TobyA 19 Aug 2015
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> Personally I'd get a Click Up for single-rope sport/indoors, and a Mega Jul for two-rope trad.

My mega jul works great for sport belaying on a single. Haven't used my grigri since getting it. In fact its probably better for that than for trad/winter with doubles.
 HeMa 19 Aug 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> A Click Up is superb and, unlike a Grigri, has the same belaying action as a conventional device (as required by the OP).

When used properly, GriGri has exactly the same movements to a traditional tube-type belay device.
 Robert Durran 19 Aug 2015
In reply to HeMa:

> When used properly, GriGri has exactly the same movements to a traditional tube-type belay device.

I thought that locking off like a normal belay device actually tended to have the opposite effect,
 HeMa 19 Aug 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

Not sure I get ya (lost in translation and all), but if you're a reasonable belayer and monitor the progress of the leader, you can pretty much foresee the need of rope and thus give slack beforehand (plus moving around) so the GriGri never locks. Until the leader falls, that is.
 Robert Durran 19 Aug 2015
In reply to HeMa:

> Not sure I get ya (lost in translation and all)

Probably....... and a Grigri has that funny handle thing which normal belay devices don't have.
 HeMa 19 Aug 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

The handle is for lowering... not belaying .
OP humptydumpty 19 Aug 2015
In reply to iksander:

Thanks for all the replies.

Grigri is a definite no, because I don't want to be dropped on the lower-off, and as far as I can tell (and have observed) it teaches terrible habits when using tube-style devices.

Megajul sounds a bit dicey too - very mixed reviews, and a bit fiddly.

> The Black-Red Alpine Smart can handle 8.9 - 10.5mm ropes, it's fine with most modern single ropes. I've also got an Alpine Up which is heavier and bulkier, but with a more aggressive autoblock action when in click up mode.

Sounds like we have a winner!
OP humptydumpty 19 Aug 2015
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Neat. Presumably she doesn't attach to the ground so that you get a soft catch. Are there any disadvantages you know of to staying unattached?
 Robert Durran 19 Aug 2015
In reply to HeMa:

> The handle is for lowering... not belaying .

But isn't there a danger that if you intuitively grab the device in a fall, you might instigate a catastrophic "lower"? The few times I've tried one, I've just found it awkward and unintuitive after using a normal device, whereas a ClickUp was almost trivially easy to switch to. And the only time I've ben dropped was with a GriGri!
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OP humptydumpty 19 Aug 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

Sounds like you're a big ClickUp fan; have you tried the Smart too?
 JohnBson 19 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:

I wouldn't get a Grigri, they teach bad belay habits and can't be used with double ropes, i'd only use one sport climbing, rope soloing or jumaring up a rope as a running knot.

The Megajul is my choice, light weight, uses more or less like an ATC and catches well. I use 7.8mm Apus doubles and it's held falls with very little slip. I did have problems when I used it with a BD Gridlock krab which slipped because it didnt engage the groove which pinches the rope as it was too large a diameter. I switched to the Edelrid Strike Slider FG and since then it has been fine.

The guide mode is great for bringing 2 seconds up or allowing you to put on a jacket, drink some hot brew, eat a chocolate bar and sort the rack while your second climbs.
 BAdhoc 19 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:

I personally hated the click up, it's really difficult to 'un-click'.

Gri-Gri for sport, and anchored for trad (and sometimes sport if there's a deck possibility with spaces bolts)

Also practise taking falls indoors, spend an hour or so falling off, builds confidence
 GPN 19 Aug 2015
In reply to JohnBson:

> I wouldn't get a Grigri, they teach bad belay habits...

To point out the obvious, a belay device is an inanimate object, and it does not 'teach you bad habits'. If you devlop bad habits using one then that is the fault of the user, not the device.
In reply to humptydumpty:

Has anyone here used the new DMM Pivot belay device yet? (big feature on front of uKC about it)
 Robert Durran 19 Aug 2015
In reply to GPN:

> To point out the obvious, a belay device is an inanimate object, and it does not 'teach you bad habits'. If you devElop bad habits using one then that is the fault of the user, not the device.

Your reaction when holding a fall is and and should be automatic once you are used to a particular device - ie it becomes ingrained and habitual. I assume what they meant (fairly obviously in fact) is that the appropriate habits gained using a GriGri can be dangerous if applied with conventional devices.
4
 TobyA 19 Aug 2015
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Errr, yes... http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=7482 See the attached thread to the review for some further discussion too.
 Robert Durran 19 Aug 2015
In reply to BAdhoc:

> I personally hated the click up, it's really difficult to 'un-click'.

Really? You simply push ("click") it up with your free hand as it becomes unweighted. Extremely easy.
 TobyA 19 Aug 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

You hold a fall with a grigri just like you do with an ATC. I don't see really what the problem is? OK, lowering you need to use the lever, but you still control the dead rope just like you do with a tube device.
 GPN 19 Aug 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:
How so? The fundamental operation of the device is the same; you hold on to the dead rope to hold a fall.
 Robert Durran 20 Aug 2015
In reply to TobyA:

> You hold a fall with a grigri just like you do with an ATC.

Ok, I may be mistaken. I've only tried one a couple of times and couldn't get the hang of it. I just understood that the fact that it could be used hands-off (even if not recommended) could get one into "bad habits" but that being too "hands-on" could accidentally release it.
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Removed User 20 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:
Mega Jul all the way, I use mine instead of a grigri now 9 times out of 10. Doesn't matter if it's sport or trad or 1 rope or 2. Belays like an ATC but with that extra brake which helps out a lot, never had any issues catching falls on mine. Lowering is CAKE once you get the hang of it, and I abseil with it reversed so it runs like an atc in that mode. Brilliant brilliant brilliant device, and pretty cheap too.

Only thing I still have trouble with is giving slack while it's in guide mode belaying from an anchor, especially if the rope has been weighted by the second. I reckon it's impossible, even using the extra krab to lift the device up. It's not like you have to do that often though.
Post edited at 00:27
OP humptydumpty 20 Aug 2015
In reply to TobyA:

Main habit I've seen is people holding the dead end of the rope in-line with the live rope.
 Puppythedog 20 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:

I have it in my head that there was some issues with the Megajul or the other one they released (minijul?). Not sure where I got that from and I might be wrong, does anyone else have a better memory of what I might remember?
 angry pirate 20 Aug 2015
In reply to puppythedog:

I think there was an issue with the cable breaking with some early ones.
I've been using a megajul for indoor, cragging and winter for a couple of years and it's hands down the best device I've used. Locks securely, easy to feed ropes and I've abbed with it OK but it is a bit grabby - I may try the trick of reversing it for abseils.
I use mine with a black diamond gridlock and it works fine on my 8.3mm doubles up to big furry wall singles.
 Mike Stretford 20 Aug 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Neither of which meet the Op's criteria;

Read the last sentence of the OP Robert.
 jimtitt 20 Aug 2015
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> ....I'd go Gri-Gri 2 and atc xp.

Me too, I´ve got all the others and there are just too many compromises involved. That ones grabby, this one doesn´t like that rope, lowering with another is crap etc etc. Having to change the rope and karabiner to use a device effectively is an example of design failure.
 Puppythedog 20 Aug 2015
In reply to angry pirate:
Thanks, I was sure there was something but couldn't remember.
For what it is worth I use GriGri and Black diamond ATC Guide. Never needed to question my choices, they are perfectly good.

Only exception is with very skinny ropes whilst ice climbing I was using a petzle reversino (Ithink thta is what it was called) a smaller guide type device with a funny metal plate as part of it. That was ace.


https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=reversino&safe=active&biw=1920&bih=951&tb...


this is it.
Post edited at 08:57
OP humptydumpty 20 Aug 2015
In reply to puppythedog:


> this is it.

Looks like the old model reverso to me.
 GridNorth 20 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:

No the Red and Orange one is a reversino which was much smaller.

To Gordon Stainforth: I have a Pivot, it's very good. It still takes a bit of effort to lower a second but it's better than other models. There was a thread about rope passing uncontrollably through the device when lowering and a professional guide showed a video of how to avoid this. I have to say it was a faff and would put me off using guide mode but I have not experienced the issues he outlined with either the Pivot or my Reverso 3. Perhaps it's something to do with the BD ATC Guide.

Al
 Puppythedog 20 Aug 2015
In reply to humptydumpty:

What he said ^^^
 andrewmc 20 Aug 2015
In reply to TobyA:

My MegaJul was super-grabby on my fat, worn 10.2 Edlinger. My new grigri2 was so grabby on that rope though I bought a new 10mm Yugi (haven't tried the combination enough to test it).

On two 8.5mm halves, the MegaJul locks and holds my weight when abseiling. I have, however, observed: a) it does NOT hold my weight on a single 8.5mm half, and consequently I don't expect it to lock reliably, b) it also crept down the rope abseiling on someone else's single (diameter unknown).

I like it, and use it for trad (used to use it for single ropes) and for abseiling (on known ropes, usually without a prussik backup), but it has definite limitations and it is NOT a grigri.

In any event you need to trust your belayer, not their belay device... a good belay device won't save you from a bad belayer.
 andrewmc 20 Aug 2015
In reply to Removed User:

> Mega Jul all the way, [...]

> Only thing I still have trouble with is giving slack while it's in guide mode belaying from an anchor, especially if the rope has been weighted by the second. I reckon it's impossible, even using the extra krab to lift the device up. It's not like you have to do that often though.

I just wiggle the belay crab backwards and forwards if I only need a few inches (while weighted). I have not had too many problems feeding slack when unweighted (albeit you have to fiddle with the crab again). Not tried lowering in guide mode.
Removed User 20 Aug 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:

I've only needed to do it twice, both times the rope was wet (skinny 9.2mm as well) and I think that greatly contributed to how difficult it was to lower in that setup.
 GridNorth 20 Aug 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:

> In any event you need to trust your belayer, not their belay device... a good belay device won't save you from a bad belayer.

Well it's high time somebody invented one that did
 David Coley 20 Aug 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:


> In any event you need to trust your belayer, not their belay device... a good belay device won't save you from a bad belayer.

Then take the belayer out of the system

http://climberonline.com/COLreviews/rev060500.shtml



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