UKC

Having dragged myself up Gates of Mordor (E3 5c) today just as the rain came, I was adding it to the log and noticed that, (unsurprisingly for that route!) it has quite a high 'failure rate'.

If you remove the repeat ascents, 2nds, TRs and ones with no info, it comes out that 41% (16/39) of lead ascents end in failure on the first go. (assumed successful on 1st go being logged as O/S, β or just lead)

Obviously hard routes that have not had many repeats will see proportionally a very high failure rate, but for frequently climbed routes (say up to E5 with more than 30 logged leads) which routes have a higher failure rate to Gates of Mordor?

And therefore what is the most failed on, but also frequently tried, route of each grade in the UK on the onsight/flash?

And... did you onsight it!?

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Left Wall (E2 5c), The Left Unconquerable (E1 5b) or Flying Buttress Direct (E1 5b)?

In reply to ianstevens:
I think some of those have more of a reputation of having a high failure rate than actually having one? There's a lot of ascents to do the sums on them!

In reply to John Roberts
The vice at Stanage?
I'm not sure how you get the percentages but on the little graph less than half are onsights.
Although one of them is mine

In reply to John Roberts (JR):
Easy picking at rivelin too. Has twice as many dogs as onsights lol

In reply to deacondeacon:
percentages but on the little graph less than half are onsights.

Copy and pasted the comments bit into excel and did some filters.

The graphs don't tell you much as you can (and people do) log things as TR O/S or 2nd O/S

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

How about an 'easyish' route with a disproportionately hard start?

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Cool. How do the vice and easy picking look on your spreadsheet. ( I'm a computer Luddite so don't know how to do it myself lol).

In reply to deacondeacon:

Must add this incredibly important bit of info which I managed to omit when editing the first comment...

I just took the last 5 years of ascents (to speed it up!)

It's not the most statistically reliable method I know!

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

A decade or two ago they would have said Scratch Arete, due to lack of commitment at the overlap.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):
Must be lots of contenders in Northumberland. My guess at the one with the highest score would be the overhanging crack at Bowden . A quick look at the logbooks reveals very few on sights. There are also two more failures that aren't logged.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

West Side Story, in its E4 guise.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Hate 6a at Bowles

In reply to mike123:

I reckon that's winning for E2 so far!

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Think you could well be right - although everytime I'm around them there always seems to be someone dangling off them.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Kelly's Overhang? Got to be up there!

In reply to Phil1919:
Orpheus Wall for real popular multiple fails. The trashed cam placements prove it. Especially if you just look at roped onsight attempts ( remove the solos by the talented and the beta leads)

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=11234

In reply to Phil1919:

Good shout, but compared to some of the other suggestions it's fairly clear that the graph says otherwise (though the proportion of failures will be lower if at the lower grades)

In reply to Offwidth:

Orpheus wall is pokey for HVS... would it see less, or more, failed attempts if it was given E1....?

In reply to John Roberts (JR):
My guess is more... a safe easy E1 tick. Incidently I dont think its pokey at all. Its a tough but safe tope end HVS (E0) that a proper HVS leader should be able to work out without a fall. Too many brusied egos from when reality fails to flatter.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

A lot of people might fail on a route but not log anything, so some of these 'failed on' routes may have even worse stats than originally thought.
Personally I don't log anything that I haven't lead ground up or red/head pointed (apart from a few special ones!). But obviously thats just personal preference.
I did fall off left wall though, so another vote for that one! And i often see people dangling/backing off from cenotaph corner!

In reply to james.slater:

Some popular choices like Left Wall and the Vice do get a fair few failures but I think that they'll fail to meet the grade because they are either at the wrong end of the crag (The Vice) or a bit of a flog to get to and, also, a good many people up there can do them relatively easily (the Cromlech ones). Similarly, I bet The File is failed on at least as frequently as it is done.

Through sheer accessibility SS routes like Trangia's Hate must be fair contenders so I'll come down a few grades and offer Sapper at Bowles because there's always a rope down it with a succession of people failing at all points from the ground through to the hole itself.

In reply to Offwidth:


Should a proper HVS leader be able to get a 5c move first go? If so, why is the grade E1 5c the normal grade for short-lived, well protected 5c?

Orpheus does feel just ever so slightly too short to feel E1, but that's totally illogical in terms of difficulty of the route. It would make more sense for HVS 5c to imply that the hard move was at the start.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for routes to be graded in a consistent, logical manner - that would spoil the fun!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

How long must a route be to be E1 then?

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

I have only recently started using the log book. I was very surprised to see how many routes, even those of a relatively modest grade, are regularly failed on, dogged or subject to some form of top rope practice or pre-placing of gear. My peer group/geneneration always took the "on-sight" to be the norm so it was never a phrase that we used much.

Is this a generation thing or did I just mix with a group with very high ethical standards I wonder?

Al

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Chequers Crack (HVS 5c)

M.G.C. (E2 5c)

Are two which always seem to have someone hanging on a runner on them.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
I was thinking Mgc , but under johns rules seems to not score too highly. Hmmmm........

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:




600-odd logged ascents, is that it? This is way too Peak-centric.

Reptile Smile must manage that many failures each year.

In reply to GridNorth:

People climb for different reasons these days I would think. Naturally with very different ethics.

In reply to Mike Highbury:


logically the route would have to be somewhere that sees a large amount of traffic, but also in a grade range that captures many folk, but with a sting in the tail, or awkward start etc..

In reply to GridNorth:


Possibly a generational thing. Lots of climbers will take their cue from people operating at the top end of the grade range, which for both Trad and Sport currently means pre-practice of routes and multiple attempts.

Personally I always go for the onsight, and have refused to second routes I haven't already climbed if it's one I'd like to get onsight. Equally I imagine there are many climbers who don't give it a moments thought to work a route, and why not? Things change.

In reply to summo:

Or a world where there are inept climbers smashing the rock to pieces, hence Sapper at Bowles.

In reply to planetmarshall:


If you watched or belayed someone on the line, you can't claim OS.

In reply to zimpara:


Depends on how hard it seems when you climb it.

In reply to HeMa:


Of course I can, just like I can if I've read the guidebook. It's a matter of degrees.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

My guess would be Chequers Crack. Every time I go past it there is someone dangling from their gear cursing profusely.

In reply to Offwidth:


I guess I'm not a proper HVS leader but I thought it was fecking hard to the point where I couldn't figure out a reliable static sequence so stripped the gear and came down. Perhaps it's steady when you know how but it I've done very many easier E1s and a handful of easier E2s over the years.

OP: I suspect Atomic (E3 6b) lures plenty of folk in then spits them off especially at its 6a grade in the old book.

jk

In reply to Offwidth:


An HVS leader wouldn't usually have the stamina to hang around and work it out (unless they are tall and can just reach though the hard part).

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Not just off the ground... a 5c move from a ledge or a good half rest but there is also the fact that OW is only 5b if you spot the devious trick. Onsighting at ones technical limit is a bit daft, so of course a 5c move is fine for someone leading at E0. Even a 6a move should be OK for such a leader (in this case a powerful finger layback sequence is very obvious). Part of the problem on OW is too many climbers (who are not good enough) jump when they can't do it static ... hence the cam damage. I am not trying to sandbag either... IMHO Kelly Overhang and Chequers Crack are solid E1 5b.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Is there any chance you could run the sql on the db to produce a ticklist of the 100 most failed on trad routes?

It could be (without seeing your db) a fairly straight forward bit of sql.

define failure rate AS:

(1-((COUNT(lead_OS)+COUNT(lead_ β))/(COUNT(lead_GU)+COUNT(lead_dog)+COUNT(lead_dnf)))

WHERE

COUNT(lead) > 30

So minimum of 30 logged leads.

In reply to HeMa + planetmarshall:

I think there are enough threads on here attempting to define what is and isn't an onsight. This thread doesn't need to be one of them!

In reply to Coel Hellier:

The route would be a boulder problem at many venues . It's a couple of moves or a short jump back to the ground if you run out of steam figuring out the crux... a patient ground up is a perfectly valid part of the onsight ethic.

Impatience on the other hand is f*cking up the rock on many popular Birchen routes that rely on cam placements (including routes at all points of their grade band from easy to hard). If folk are not pretty sure they can do routes like OW or Sail Buttress or Topsail (using the thread and not the trashed cam slot abovel) maybe they should leave the route until they are a better climber.

In reply to jkarran

Grading is a nominal population average thing where we all have particular strengths and weaknesses, so everyone will find some HVS climbs that don't suit them harder than some E2s that do.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Come on... It's boring here in the cubicle, and when it comes to British climbing... it's all about ethics and/or grading.

That comment was just ripe for starting a nice drift on when is something an onsight and when not...

In reply to Offwidth:


I'm always pretty sure I can do a route up until the point that I fall off. Maybe erosion of placements is indeed due to inexperienced climbers trying routes they aren't ready for, or maybe it's just the sheer numbers of climbers in the Peak that makes this kind of thing inevitable.

In reply to Offwidth:


Safe, bouldery steep stuff is what I've mostly been doing for the last few years, it's not exactly my weakness nor am I new to this climbing game. Orpheus is just plain hard to onsight which for one reason or another you seem to have lost sight of, *significantly* harder than its HVS neighbors.

jk

In reply to jkarran:
Complete nonsense. Its a trick move V0+ or a sequency V1 or an obvious fingery V2. If you can't boulder obvious V2 nor suss out a V1 its either a weakness of yours or you are not an HVS leader in my book. Birchen has loads of such routes and it fits in the graded list sequence of those at E0.

In reply to Offwidth:


Hmm. You don't seem particularly sure of its V Grade, so how can you be so sure that it's HVS?

In reply to planetmarshall:

More nonsense. The only way a climber falls unexpectedly is something like a slip or a broken hold. The problem with OW is "sock it and see" dynos on bomber cams, that have as a result ground into the soft matrix. jkarran describes the proper approach to such routes... try it and if you cant work it out, take the gear out and reverse (or jump) and come back another time and get it ground-up

In reply to planetmarshall:
Its V grade is around V0+/V1 (a really hard one to spot the sequence) the alternatives are eliminates/alternatives on the same line.... common practice all the way up to lines like Brad Pitt, and I said its E0 (HVS/E1 border and such routes are best kept at the grade they are to avoid creep)

In reply to Offwidth:


Now why does this remind me of jcm-esque methods of escaping from the belay on Valkyrie? If you hang around trying to figure out the crux, it is not then easy to reverse to the ground (at least, not for the typical HVS leader). I think you might be over-familiar with this climb, it is not at all easy to onsight at the grade, Most HVS leaders will be stumped by the crux move, and will then almost inevitably rest on the cams.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Almost all HVS leaders fail on the route. That's because almost all HVS leaders are not actually HVS leaders, not because the route is undergraded.

I'm not sure I can understand OW's logic here...

In reply to FactorXXX:


The Yellow Slab pitch on Overlapping Rib Route (First Pinnacle Rib) can be a nasty shock to the average Diff leader to encounter a 4b pitch half way up the route. I understand it can be avoided on the right, and I wonder how many take that option?

In reply to John Roberts (JR): Profit of Doom was the first route that came to my mind.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

At the very positive break your feet are about 5 feet above the flattish ground if you are too tired to down climb. Its a bouldery route at the top of the HVS grade from the hundreds of climbers I've watched on it and the subset of those I trust that I've discussed it with (including you) and having climbed everything around that grade on the edge many times. 130 odd adjectival grade votes on UKC put it spot on at E0. Maybe you are too unfamiliar.

In reply to Offwidth:

I think you assume that whatever sequence you find easy is the same for everyone. That's very rarely the case. Have you considered that you just have a way that feels 5b for you, and for everyone else the easiest way of doing it for them feels 5c?

In reply to Offwidth:


More like climbers getting more and more pumped until they take the dangle of shame. Not many hvs leaders are trying fluky dynos.

In reply to Jon Stewart:



On the face of it it sounds like a classic "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

All good bouldery routes catch most leaders out first time. The grade for the ground-up is still valid as long as the climber returns to the ground after a fall and doesn't dog. Verandah Buttress is given HVD or S and arguably stops more 'HVS' climbers first time tham OW.

In reply to Offwidth:


Ah yes, another climb where your grading -- 4c??? -- is somewhat idiosyncratic!

In reply to planetmarshall:

? or ego battered bleaters avoiding the grade logic with rhetoric. Its given the same grade (very top end HVS) in the BMC and Rockfax and VG and it is confirmed by 130 UKC votes and yet everyone else other than those voting for it to be solid E1 are wrong eh?

In reply to Offwidth:

You've personally watched 100's of climbers on the route? You must go to Birchens a LOT!

In reply to Coel Hellier:
I agree that one is idiosyncratic but not in the grade sense but in just how hard the easy way is to spot, yet so obvious afterwards (hiding in plain sight) . The few experienced climbers who have spotted it, or have been shown the the way I do it, all agree it is 4c. I expect a particularly grovelling apology from you on that one when you work it out or I show you (I had to be shown by Chris Fitzhugh, with the grovelling apology, having also scoffed at him ...and in the meantime had worked out numerous variations around 5b/c over my countless attempts over the years )

In reply to Offwidth:


Well, grading in the UK is part logic and part psychology. Unless you have 'blind' grading, the consensus will always arrive at a grade anchored by that of the first ascensionist.


I haven't climbed it ( and based on the comments in this thread it'll probably be one of many Peak HVS's that I 'come back to'), but it seems clear that whatever grade it is, it's not going to be 'solid'.

In reply to jonathan shepherd:

Yeah that one had me...

In reply to planetmarshall:
Of course grade bias exists and is obvious on many routes but the reality of this route isn't the typical UKC inexperienced leaders seeking an easy tick its real experienced leaders who are voting E0 and HVS on a route with a reputation: its too far from mid E1 on too many votes (and with too many like you who dont seem to get that ground up grades are used for bouldery routes) to be that wrong. Kelly's Overhang shows a more typical bias profile for a solid E1 route given HVS

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Moff and I wrote the chapter in Froggatt and worked very much in a team way with people who knew the crag as well or even better than us. So yeah, ...

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

I can imagine Land's End Long Climb must stop a lot of VDiff leaders, but fortunately it's easily escapable at most points. Otherwise there would a lot of epics!

In reply to Offwidth:

I admire your dedication!

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Thats HS 4b in my opinion for the traverse ( or HS 3c if you do the bold jump) and HS 4a for the top wall (looks like a hold/placement blew fairly recently). The stopper bit is the corner below... safe S 4b if at all damp so many don't even get to reach the adjectival crux.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Sentinel Crack must be up there surely. Or is it that its reputation is so fierce people only try it when already leading a couple of grades harder?
Chequers and Orpheus seem obvious candidates though.

In reply to Bulls Crack:
.... call it love or obsession... it didnt feel like a job. Chris Fithugh's visits must be over a thousand. He has done his Propriaceptive Octet over a hundred times and that was new for the guide.

In reply to Offwidth:

Why? Pick a route that is safe to protect - a crack for example - and go for it. I've perhaps bouldered a grade or two harder (after practice) than I've lead onsight on trad routes. Doing that on a dangerous (or at least run out) route might be a bad idea though, but there are plenty of trad routes that are considerably less scary to climb than sports climbs of the same technical grade just because you can put more gear in.

To JR - It probably won't get captured in the logbook records but I bet more people slither off the start of an "easy classic" like Crack and Corner (S 4b) than many other routes. As you just slide back down to the ground, you'd have to be very rules-conscious to then record it as a RP if you do it on your second, third or fourth go. Goliath's Groove (HVS 5a) might be another where plenty of leaders and seconds slip off the polished wide start on first attempts. I like thrutchy cracks like that but still found it tricky due to the polish (and I mean the sheen not the Polish lads who happened to climbed it in front of me!).

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

I noticed that Nowanda at Gardoms has it's fair share of dogged attempts:

Nowanda (HVS 5a)

In reply to Offwidth:


I demand a UKC video! Anyone agreeing press "like" on this comment. See if we can force a video by popular demand!

In reply to Offwidth:

Why do you always have a problem with what other people are doing?

I reckon I fall off 1 in every 30 E2 5c routes, but occasionally a move catches me out. Should I stay away from Orpheus wall? Do I fit your minimum criteria for trying this route?

In reply to Offwidth:


I had a similar experience with Blackhawk Bastion. Easy when you get the sequence.

In reply to Offwidth:


Which bit of my post is nonsense?


Well there we go, that's me told.

jk

In reply to TobyA:



Agreed. The alternative is to second or toprope harder routes until comfortable at the grade, but this then ruins the onsight experience. To improve you have to be prepared to fail, but that doesn't necessarily mean dogging a route into submission. Personally I can tell quite rapidly whether a route will go on the second or third attempt, or if I'm simply not ready for it.

In reply to Offwidth:


so on bouldery routes, the grade should represent most people failing?


now that's a new one on me! Bouldery hvs are graded for falling off. any other categories of trad route this applies to? Bold routes graded for bottling and saying you'll come back to when your heads in the right place? Pumpy routes for sitting down for a little rest (i did all the moves fine, no falls)?

In reply to jkarran + Offwidth:

That said, I can't think that there's one single route at HVS outside of the grit or maybe Northumberland that has a V2 crux...

In reply to TobyA:


Yes, and I bet even more fail to get off the ground on its namesake at the Roaches!

In reply to Offwidth:


It's pretty absurd throughout at VDiff. After the Elbow Crack where being competent at VS hand jamming is an advantage, there's the bit getting onto the stance at the top of the chimney, and then you have the scary (especially for the second) traverse or the terrifying jump (which I have to say I refused to consider without a rope) before the final crux pitch to the top. Fantastic!

In reply to Offwidth:

Onsighting at ones technical limit is a bit daft

No it isn't. To many it's perfectly normal to push themselves on a route, whether that be technically, mentally or physically.
Isn't that sort of the idea of climbing?

In reply to FactorXXX:

>> Onsighting at ones technical limit is a bit daft


Indeed, albeit to be honest... not many people are actually even trying to OS at their technical limit. After all, if you can boulder F6a, you can also technically get up a f7a or so. That's like 6A British tech. Meaning even a punter like me, should be able to OS a E5 6a route... Sure, I can get up one after a lot of tries and practice... but the likelyhood of me succeeding is quite low...

In reply to Trangia:


Agree, it must be a nightmare at the grade. I've only been up there once, soloing those East Face classics. There was a lady leading the Yellow Slab, having a bit of a mare on the sun-glazed polish. I nipped up on the right; it seemed about Severe. Less obvious though.

Another nasty shock must have been those moves on the first pitch of Terrier's Tooth. (Has it been regraded?) A V Diff leading into a Hard Severe with groundfall potential.

And the start of Veranda Buttress. Maybe better not to go there and risk Offwidth's wrath. Oops, looks as though we already have!

Mick

In reply to FactorXXX:

But there is your perceived technical limit and your actual technical limit. I would think that most people on-sight to their perceived technical limit. I know that I do.

Al

In reply to TobyA:

Crack and Corner, Stanage, is a really good call.

If you boulder a couple of grades hader you are not leading at your technical limit are you!? Placing gear well on something sustained and hard like Chequers Crack, if 5b is you bouldering grade, leads to almost certain failure or dogging which is (usually) safe daft (as in what's the point) and on bolder routes it is risk daft. I've done both in my time.

In reply to HeMa:

not sure I agree with this.

If I can boulder f6A, doesn't mean I can do London Wall with a crux at the bottom & top

In reply to GridNorth:


ding ding...

If you boulder enough to warrant being consistent, the you should just look at your maximum boulder-grade and then translate that via British tech -grade to have an idea of what you should actually be able to get up (from technical point of view).

In reply to ashtond6:


True enough. How ever, you should be able to do the moves technique vise. Meaning it is within your limit (or rather lower than your limit). The reason for failing most likely will have a lot to do with stamina and your head.

In reply to FactorXXX:

That's part of the legend of UK trad climbing. Really pushing limits on bold routes is incredibly risky and few can do that for long periods. On safe routes the inevitable dogging is only climbing in the aid or French free sense. Most climbers operate with a technical margin and for all the hot air the average grade led in the UK is only HS.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Terrier's Tooth start fell down and the main sandbag aspect now is the three stars (it would currently be lucky to get one IMHO). I thought the famous old direct start was top end HS 4b.

In reply to GridNorth:


Fair point.

In reply to HeMa:

yeah I get your point
I cant think of any (safe) E5s with f6A cruxes between hands off rests though

In reply to ashtond6:
This one does...

Majavan Paluu (7a)


(and my only E5, which obviously was not an OS).

In reply to Mick Ward:



I've led it twice, the first time in the 1960s in big boots. No protection and at the time i knew nothing about the "alternative" on the right. A very scary lead.

In reply to GridNorth:
I'd agree with that for experienced climbers getting out regularly. Its just the same as saying the climber has a smaller margin on their technical grades through experience and practice.

Despite the surge of climbers in the last few decades and the genuine improvements in technique due to bouldering and excellent indoor facilities and the slow improvement in adjectival limits the numbers of onsights of mid to harder extremes on grit seem the same to me now (if not fewer) as they they did when I started in the late 80s.

In reply to ianstevens:


None of those have significant "dogged" or "DNF" blocks compared to the "clean onsight" on the style bar charts compared with GOM , where the red failed bars together obviously outnumber all the clean OS! Not seen another example like it.

In reply to Just Another Dave:
As pointed above, Overhanging Crack is even more blatant. I reckon I must have seen a dozen or more people on it but never seen anyone manage it.

The Overhanging Crack (E2 5c)

In reply to Lemony:

You're right, I hadn't checked that.

Easy picking at Rivlin too has impressive OS failure>>success on the graphs.

Those two must win it, surely?


....I would have guessed Demon Wall at almsciff would have come close, but not according to the charts....

In reply to HeMa:

the write up says 'then boldly traverse left and top out'
Looks amazing though!

In reply to Just Another Dave:



Speaking of almscliff, what's that polished VD/S on the left hand side of black wall where the start's about 5b. I reckon any kind of honest logging would put that pretty high.

In reply to Offwidth:


Whew! Glad we agree about a grading at long last. I did it with a very well-known Welsh guide. He felt the same. My judgement might well be out but it's unlikely his would be.

Mick

In reply to Trangia:


Eek... big boots and no pro on that polished slab. The stuff of nightmares. And the sort of experience you remember vividly.

I can remember doing Agag's Wall in the Mournes (Severe!) in the wet, in big boots, in the 60s and wondering whether it was just the friction of my woolly jumper on the rock that was keeping me on. One thing seemed for sure; the two paltry garage nuts hopefully stuffed into flared granite cracks were gonna rip if I came off. I so very nearly did...

And yet we're still bobbing about, 50 years later, able to laugh about the near misses. Pity those poor souls who can't.

Mick

In reply to HeMa:



Do you know anyone who has done that route who has also climbed E5 6a (or any E5) in the UK though? Perhaps Adrian P. but I don't know. I'm not sure who graded those routes, I think some of them were educated guesses by maybe Tuukka or maybe Jody. I'm thinking that I would now maybe bring the UK grades down a notch for many Finnish routes, at least in comparison to gritstone grades but I have no input to offer on anything above 6-/HVS-E1ish!

In reply to Mick Ward:

I remember doing Yellow Slab in big boots when leading at about VS. I looked at it and thought that's a lot harder than V Diff, reckoned it looked like about MVS 4a/b, and unprotected. Which was exactly what it turned out to be. So I found fairly OK, because I'd guessed right and wasn't taken by surprise.

In reply to HeMa:

Indeed, albeit to be honest... not many people are actually even trying to OS at their technical limit. After all, if you can boulder F6a, you can also technically get up a f7a or so. That's like 6A British tech. Meaning even a punter like me, should be able to OS a E5 6a route... Sure, I can get up one after a lot of tries and practice... but the likelyhood of me succeeding is quite low...

Think a lot of it depends on the type of route. If it's hard but safe, I'll push it on a technical level as if it was a boulder problem. If it's bold, I wouldn't apply the same process and will readily admit to dropping the technical level to suit.

In reply to GridNorth:

But there is your perceived technical limit and your actual technical limit. I would think that most people on-sight to their perceived technical limit. I know that I do.

Can't argue with that and that's probably why I'm not climbing Very Big E Numbers!

In reply to TobyA:

I'm pretty sure Eetu has climbed it, and hasn't per se downgraded it.

That said, a safe f7a fits pretty well in the E5 bunch. Perhaps it could also be E4, but then again, the gear is quite fiddly and naturally the crux comes after the worst piece on the route and is rather sustained in nature.

Nice line though, and you should have climbed it, when you were here .

In reply to ashtond6:


Well, the travese portion is not that long (3 or 4 moves) followed by a nasty highstep dealio into a no hands rest. And before the crux you need to add 3 moves from the previous no-hands rest. So your pretty standard sub 10 move boulder, and roughly F6A or so.

In reply to Offwidth:

That's part of the legend of UK trad climbing. Really pushing limits on bold routes is incredibly risky and few can do that for long periods.

Can't argue with that, but thought you meant in general and not just on bold routes.


On safe routes the inevitable dogging is only climbing in the aid or French free sense.

Not 100% sure what you mean there, but if people are dogging routes, then they must be pushing their technical grade in the same way they would be red pointing a sport route?


Most climbers operate with a technical margin and for all the hot air the average grade led in the UK is only HS.

I do find that statistic quite amazing. I wonder if it's down to the sheer volume of people climbing on a very casual basis and treating it like a theme park ride and therefore skewing the data? There's no doubt that there's a lot more people climbing the E grades than ever before. Be interesting to see a histogram of grades climbed and see what the distribution looks like.

In reply to FactorXXX:

Theme park ride? Not sure what you're getting at.
It's an average grade not an average max grade.
I have an average grade of mvs but my max is a lot higher.

In reply to HeMa:

As someone who has climbed it, I'm very skeptical of Majavan Paluu being E5. That being said my only experience of climbing E5s has been in Finland. I'm fairly sure that hints at some of the grading being quite far out. The problem is that very few people climbing in Finland and using the UKC logbooks have much experience with the UK grades (especially at the upper end). A lot of the grades have been "made up" by the moderators based on conversion tables. In some of the harder climbs I did at Luhti I entered them as French grades based on 27 crags, as I felt this reflected a consensus opinion on the grades. I'm not convinced that applying UK grades to Finnish climbs makes much sense anyway. Perhaps it is E5? But I honestly don't think so.

In reply to TonyB:


True enough, it is after all f7a with the crux near the top. And if you now what you're doing, not super sustained, as it has quite a few rests, some more obvious than others.

However from Rockfax safe routes f7a is right smack in the middle of E5, where as for E4 IT would have to be quite sustained at tech 6A.

Tony Hawk seems to be E4, but is has the crux at the start and better rests than Majava. But both are still f7a.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):
The start to Middle fell butteress has sorted a few out over the years, could be even more nowadays for those learning indoors and sport routes.

In reply to Climbingspike:

Do you mean the Middlefell Buttress just up from the ODG Hotel? ... which, afaicr, was always little more than a scramble (i.e a moderate) until a short step of v.diff high up near the top?

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

How about Charity at Idwal....many, many people must have slipped or jumped off that start!

In reply to Bulls Crack:


But slipping or jumping off the start doesn't blow the onsight.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):
Good topic. I haven't checked the stats but a couple of suggestions:
Gesemini at Stoney, and Shaftsbury Avenue at Millstone.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Orpheus Wall sounds like an idea candidate for an H grade, being notably hard to onsight but relatively easy once you know the trick. Graded for the trick way it may be HHVS but the proportion of people able to figure it out and onsight it would suggest E1 or possibly more would be more appropriate. Nobody's going to get hurt by giving it HVS, so it's not a problem as it is, but in reality the success rate merits a higher grade. E2/HHVS may be more helpful if people knew what that meant! Award yourself an E2 tick if you figure it out without help, but if your're dong it with beta or after falling trying other ways first then it's really only like doing any other HVS.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:


Beat me to it, I was just about to mention Chequers! I've only ever seen one person flash it and that was a newcomer to climbing called... Duggie Hall!

In reply to Robert Durran:

You're right - forgot about that! And if anyone thinks it does :-p

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Tatra down at Boulder ruckle would have seen a lot of fails at VS before the rock fall

Left wall is the reputed 'most fallen off'. Teli at stanage must be one of the most fallen off at E3

But Ospheus Wall must take the gold medal!. It is frigged because it is blatantly undergraded not because HVS leaders are regularly dynoing the crux!

In reply to Sean Kelly:

I remember onsighting it sometime in the very late 70s before I'd climbed anything graded Extreme. Didn't seem out of the ordinary for the grade at the time. I think people have just generally become less proficient at climbing cracks, which means that fewer can climb them well, which means the grade should be proportionally higher.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
You can not have done what I'm on about. The proper start is ten times more difficult than any other part of the route, think it was known as castration crack.

In reply to john arran:

Think thats dead on, I had a total nightmare on it initially, have climbed it a few times since on the lead and seconding and its ok once you have a limited knowledge of crack climbing, particularly locks. If I think that (I'm crap at cracks) someone who did a proper grit apprenticeship and can jam/lock etc would probably find it reasonable HVS

In reply to spidermonkey09:


There's nothing reasonable about Chequers at HVS. If you go round the country climbing E2 cracks in different areas, come back to Chequers and it's still harder than most of them. I have tried this experiment, twice.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Did this earlier in the year. Not that scary but a good bit harder than V Diff. There seems to be an emphasis on not putting 'classic' route grades up to match other routes

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

As a passer by, there always seem to be people hanging off Cockblock on Clogwyn y Grochan, E5 6b? I suspect it sees few onsights due to it having a reputation of being fierce but safe.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Maybe I was just going really well when I led it!

In reply to Climbingspike:


Thanks for reminding me about that. I'd completely forgotten. My earliest guidebook has 3 ticks next to MB, including one next to the harder start (saying, in my writing, 'V. severe. solo'), but no comment. I would always comment in the margin if I found something harder or easier than the guidebook suggested. I really can't remember anything much about it, except that the whole climb, by the easier line, was a high quality beginner's route ... very natural, I think starting just left of the toe of the buttress? and on good clean rock all the way. I do remember using it several (at least two) times as a solo approach to Gimmer Crag, soloing with a heavy sack full of gear and rope/s, and finding it far preferable to the ordinary long and very tedious path .. at least for gaining all the initial height. But my memory of it now is quite hazy. I was last there in 1988 a/c to the guidebook.

In reply to Cardi:

Yeah that's a good shout too. It spat me off a couple of weeks ago for a start!

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I would concur with that, judging by my one rather feeble attempt, at a point in my climbing when - on the basis of other routes I did at the time - I should have got up it without too much bother. I remember I gave up/lost interest rather rapidly because it was just so extremely unpleasant and slippery, with the only real good nut or friend placement/s just where you wanted to put your hands. Like all very badly polished routes it had no charm whatever, because you were having to put such a ridiculous amount of power into it. I guess it's whatever turns you on, but I was a strange creature who favoured climbs that were enjoyable.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

The grading also reeked of some kind of sad inferiority complex, that one usually finds in a few other countries and some of the more obscure parts of the British Isles ... but not at all often on gritstone. (SE Wales was very bad in that respect, with some climbs so badly undergraded that there were several fatalities in the 3 years i was there.)

In reply to John Roberts (JR):
Any of the routes above the catwalk at Malham. The times I've been there recently I can only remember one person actually climbing, everone else seemed to be clipping bolts with BFO clipsticks and then toproping, frigging, pulling on bolts, etc.
Maybe I've just been unlucky with the timing of my visits and usually there's lots of climbing taking place.

Pmc

Nearly forgot to mention Groove Above, Cwm Idwal. Many can't get off the ground although far fewer admit to it

In reply to TobyA:



I'd have thought Crack and Corner at Stanage, looks easy, but is now very polished..

Otherwise maybe one of the classic slab climbs like TPS or Sunset Slab, both you get to the half way point ish and then hit the unprotected padding section and I think many will just down climb.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):
Well this has one heck of a lot of recorded "did not finish" attempts!

Mark of the Beast (7c)

....more than all the clean ascents (including rpt/beta as well as OS) and the dogged etc all put together!

In reply to Just Another Dave:

One person has logged every attempt by the looks of it!?

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I agree, there's something particularly mean and painful about the jams too. It's just not very pleasant actually.

For a holiday sandbag Golva at Sennen used be a contender but I see it's E2 now. Still seem to be plenty of tales of woe in the logbook entries though - another jam fest (but easier than Chequers Crack!).

In reply to John Roberts (JR):
The Toy at Curbar.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

Good shout on the face of it (pardon the pun) looking at the graph.

In reply to john arran:

Well that is my memory of it too. All I remember is leading it fast (in about 1970), because it was somewhat strenuous, but nothing out of the ordinary for HVS. Bear in mind two things, though: the grade of "HVS" was a very mixed bag in those days (particularly in Yorkshire), and the climb is probably much more polished today.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


That's cos it ain't HVS but for some reason it keeps going in the guides at HVS. Both the mean and the mode of the grade are E1 looking at the graph.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I thought it was steady E1 5c - very safe 5c climbing that is short lived
Its stupid at HVS though!

I don't think that crux is harder than most E2s - picadilly circus, regent street, suspense, five finger exercise, fern hill, dangler all have much harder cruxes

In reply to John Stainforth:



Both good points but on the other hand I've soloed it on many occasions since and it never seemed very different to other HVSs. It requires a fair knowledge of crack technique to work out the best way to use the locks available, but once you have a good sequence it's neither powerful nor insecure for HVS. We keep coming back to the question as to whether we're actually grading for likelihood of onsight success or whether we're trying to convey something different, like the reasonableness of getting on it and having a go.

In reply to john arran:


With the premise of the grade system being, that it defines the difficulty of the route at a point on the scale where the climber has to be competent at at least the grade given to get up that route onsight, then Chequer's Crack (and probably Orpheus Wall) are a notch up.

Using the phrase "once you have a good sequence" suggests that it's not going to be that for a leader of that grade on the first go.

If it's defined as anything else other than onsight, then give it a sport and a danger grade... Anyway, I digress... back to the hardest route in the country of each grade to onsight...

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

It's the "once you have a good sequence" bit that possibly explains it. Climbers in general used to be better at jamming, spending proportionally more time at crags and less at walls. It may be that a good sequence or technique thought to be ok to work out forty years ago is now considered much more of a puzzle.

I never really understood people failing on Chequers Crack though as it's so near to the ground it's not hard to keep trying and reversing until you find a method that feels like it will work. Are climbers more impatient nowadays?

In reply to john arran:



No, you just have a lot of stamina and HVS isn't the top of your grade, and wasn't then. I'm not sure a leader who was solid at HVS, but not an E1 climber, would be able to reverse all the way down from the hard bit and back up as you suggest.

And climbing has moved away from being on more protectable cracks, due to advances in protection technology, meaning other lines are more protectable. Evidently, if that's what you do, that's what you get good at. Styles also change, crack climbing is fun, but it's not everyone's bag turning up to work on a Monday morning with scabby hands...

In reply to john arran:


Impressive. Not because that you solo it, but because you choose to repeat it at all! Not a route calls me back for the pleasure of the moves...

In reply to john arran:


Yes, John, but you've climbed up to E10 and unsighted up to E7 !!!

I suspect that, because of its position, it probably is the most failed on route in the UK. If that's true, you can hardly argue with statistics. I also suspect Kelly's Overhang can't be far behind.

In reply to ashtond6:

I've only done Regent St, Suspense and Fern Hill on your list and none of those is as hard as the start of Chequers Crack. IMO it got HVS because the hardest bit is <3m off the floor and the landing is pretty reasonable. nowadays it would be v1 with a pad or two and jump off when your hands are on the big break!

Edited to remove the love heart!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


>
"Unsighted up to E7"? Now that really is impressive

In reply to John Roberts (JR):


At the risk of sounding like a stuck record... *crack gloves* are the answer! Wore mine with pride at Almscliff on Sunday.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I don't know... I climbed it OS, when my grade was HVS (2004). Found it hard, and one of those routes I was glad to have done so that I didn't have to do it again. HVS didn't seem unreasonable then, but I've no interest in going back now to check - once was enough I think it's good to have some routes that are notably 'hard' for the grade, so you know you're a 'proper' HVS/E1/E2 etc climber.

In reply to TobyA:


AKA cheater gloves...

Which I also use quite a bit... when loggin' mileage.

Oddly enough, I haven't used them on any of the harder crack lines. Albeit I will look at the route before I decide. Eg. I will prolly have them on for Seireeni (n7+)
as it is quite relentless at the start, but for Tony Hawk (E4 6a) I won't be using them.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Another interesting finger lock route at the old HVS grade was Nonsuch which I thought was directly comparable to the difficulty of Chequers Crack (I'd put both down as an E1 5b that 'feels' 5c to many due to fading strength and increasing anxiety on lead, but with Nonsuch a bit nicer to climb). The UKC votes are completely different though. As for classic sandbags Masochism has to be up there but hardly anyone who is an HVS leader seems to try (only about 7 people voting! and the votes not quite signalling the legend)

In reply to John Roberts (JR):


There's a route on Stanage named The Beautician which seems to have had its fair share of fun and games over the years. The latest logbook comment notes ruefully: 'Not a good warm up, huge run out, harrowing!'

The aforesaid beautician was Sue, a truly lovely lady. She once turned up for an interview, looking like a goddess. "But then they saw my hands!"

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Yeah that's one of a handful routes on my remaining top 500 routes in the peak ticklist I'm actually not looking that forward to!

In reply to Offwidth:
Has anyone mentioned Todys wall?

That one move must repel a hell of a lot..

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

It's interesting that almost all the routes that have been suggested are in the Peak. Under-graded or just over-climbed?

In reply to ashtond6:

Sorry almost missed you post. I don't normally have any problem with how people climb, unless there actions are likely damaging a route. On Orpheus Wall and those other Birchen routes the hard surface has gone in the breaks, through the grinding action of cams (seems worst when moving around on the cam when its weighted after a fall) and the rate of wear from cams is plain horrible and the problem on cruxy routes is spreading slowly to grit crags with harder rock, including some popular VS climbs on Stanage.... go look. I can see a time when a voluntary ban on dogging on cams on grit classics will be put forward and the guides already contain specific advice on some routes. My other favorite bugbears are talentless top-ropers polishing holds on Downhill Racer and abseil groups on friction slabs with hard routes reliant on crucial pebble holds or people wire brushing clean grit. Where I see such problems I talk to people about it at the crag and usually get the message over without agro (the student hiking club leader teaching his group to abseil down Telli being a failure on my part, even though his group clearly understood).

In reply to Roadrunner5:

Scene of my first ever leader fall circa 1965

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dftjlqtd1n17gp0/First%20Leader%20Fall.jpg?dl=0

Al

In reply to Offwidth:

After a fairly pitiful performance on Stanage a few weeks ago, I perused the BMC guidebook for a nearby HVS and decided to have a go at The Watch-Tower (E2 5b). That was entertaining.

In reply to Roadrunner5:

Tody's Wall is pretty easy for a suggested HVS sandbag even if it is a weird and rather unexpectedly solved crux move.

In reply to GridNorth:

Amazing!

In reply to Roadrunner5:

Tody's Wall (HVS 5a) - not according to the logs...

In reply to GridNorth:
That's attest pic gridnorth!
Did you go to the floor or did the rope catch on the horn?

In reply to Sean Kelly:


That was my candidate somewhere up thread as well. Always someone dangling off it when you walk past. Everything a 'real' HVS should be

In reply to John Roberts (JR):


Disproportionately frequented by less 'rounded' climbers I'd say.

In reply to deacondeacon:

I decked with no serious injuries. I think the rope over the edge slowed me down a bit.

Al

In reply to Offwidth:
It's probably me, but I have never understood what pleasure is derived from 'dogging' a route to death?

Isn't it better to wait until your abilities match the challenge, and you can enjoy the movement and exhilaration of climbing the route properly - it's so much more satisfying.

In reply to Goucho:


Naturally, in case you have almost an endless supply of routes to climb.

Not so, when living in a location were the amount of routes is quite low and you've already ticked them all. So, either you start to travel numerous hours to find something new to climb/try... or you start projecting the harder routes you haven't done.

Guess which ones makes you a better climber? Climbing thousands of Severes (but never any Hard Severs), or starting to work on E1s until you get them redpointed?

In reply to Offwidth:

Seems reasonable, how do you draw the line though?

I particularly like trying to onsight a route close to my limit as you certainly get more of an experience - this obviously increases the risk ill fall on the gear placements... & if this is a cruxy/bouldery route, I maybe sat on gear a few times


Regarding Telli, Downill Racer etc I fully agree these are delicate routes, I have no issue with people top roping them if they show respect... this is obviously different to the big boots scenarios on chalkstorm

In reply to HeMa:

Can't modern day climbers travel further than 50 miles these days then?


Judging by the amount of routes dogged, and the average grade climbed, I'm not sure that argument holds water.

Developing well rounded skills on a wide variety of rock and locations is what makes you a better climber. I don't recall moving up through the grades ever requiring 'working' a route to a redpoint, we just moved through the grades adopting a predominantly onsight ethic, and most of the folk I climbed with all operated around the E4 - E6 grade on a pretty consistent basis, and across a wide variety of rock and location - Peak, Wales, The Lakes, South West, Scotland, France, USA etc etc.

In reply to Roadrunner5:



I would imagine that there are a lot of "tricksy" routes where failures never get logged. I would imagine the HVS to softer E1 grade to cover a lot of those kind of routes. I've spent many a day watching people have issues on the likes of Tody's (not being either to scuffle to the break or throw their leg up and pull over it)or taking a rest after spending an eternity in the pod of Peapod at Curbar and I have seen solid E3 leaders flummoxed by the like of Freddie's Finale at Wimberry (when did that get upgraded!).

Just from what you can see on any given day at a crag while climbing next to such classics seems totally different to me from what you might see on the logbook stats. I don't think it is people being selective about what they log but more about who is likely to do any logging at all.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

A few routes on the southern sandstone. Hate springs to mind...Looking at the logbook it has double 'dogged' to 'clean onsight' ratio just about!

In reply to HeMa:

Shortage is hardly an issue on grit. I think I have a decades worth of climbing left even if I stay at my lowly grade with the odd low extreme onsight. Damaging classic grit routes by dogging them is plain inconsiderate when there are so many good routes which need traffic to keep them clean and more than a lifetime's worth of bouldering to help sort out any discrepancies of grit technique.

In reply to Offwidth:


Can anyone guess why?

In reply to Goucho:


Totally agree. My gut feeling (the eternal caveat: I may be utterly wrong!) is that these days there's more of a tendency to regard routes as commodities, particularly for people coming up the grades. Sure, back in the day, there were massively prized routes but often the penalty for failure wasn't one you'd necessarily want to pay. Usually you had to 'earn' the route.

But nowadays, with folk coming off walls onto sport, wanting sport to be like the wall (and maybe wanting trad to be like sport?), there's perhaps a greater chance that they haven't paid their dues, as it were.

A while back I was messing around on Portland. The lady on the route next door (F7a+) had a massive freak-out. She was strong, with good technique but was completely intimidated by the position. It turned out that this was only her first or second time climbing outdoors. Her second didn't seem to know what to do. There were tons of options (if you could see 'em) but the gripped shitless/selectivity of perception had well set in. Luckily I could reassure her that she was on relatively easy ground and talk her through the rest of it. Obviously a very gutsy lady but I think it might have been better to work through the grades, do some easy trad, etc, before taking her wall grade outside.

As the man said (but hey, what had he ever done on grit?)

"It'll [i.e. the route] be there next year. The trick is to make sure you are."

Mick

In reply to jsmcfarland:


Top rope doesn't count... for these purposes. Trad only...

In reply to Mick Ward:

and then you have.... Aidan Roberts.... http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69918

There's no one size fits all rule for working through the grades.

In reply to Goucho:


I know I won't, after work (ie. 5'ish) with sun setting now around 8.30. Add about an hour for the drive and then you have 2.5h of time for the climbing... not really worth the effort nor the gas.

Then again, I don't live in UK. And generally focus more on boulders during weekdays anyway.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):


That's a very late introduction of this rule, John.

In reply to Mike Highbury:

err... from the OP

In reply to Mick Ward:

Completely agree Mick.

There seems to be this mad rush to move up the grades - irrespective of whether a person actually has the necessary ability - but more importantly, they miss out on some of the best routes in Britain.

Some of my fondest memories and climbing enjoyment have been on magnificent routes in the S to VS range.

Grades are just a measurement in numbers and letters, they add nothing to a routes quality, or the experience of climbing it - unless claiming the grade tick is more important than the route itself?

In reply to John Roberts (JR):


Oh, alright then.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):



I somehow think that Aidan Roberts is possibly not your average climber

In reply to Goucho:

For some, yes. It's the collector's mentality, the same desire that drives people to walk through manky bog to an indistinct summit because it's over 3000ft and on Sir Hugh's list. And why not? Who am I to criticise why other people climb things, if they get enjoyment from it?

In reply to HeMa:


You can get a lot done in 2.5 hours

In reply to planetmarshall:


Agree, as long as the style they climb a route, doesn't f*ck it up for everyone else?

In reply to Goucho:

On boulders, yes... on routes... nope.

Perhaps you'll get an idea that the topo for the whole country is thinner than Stanage guidebook. And Finland has around 100 000 km2 more land than United Kindoms. So most non popular places will require a few full days worth of cleanin', just to be climbable.

In reply to HeMa:



Once took my kids to see Father Christmas there, but apart from that, Finland is an area I can't comment on - my comment applied to the UK really

In reply to Goucho:

Im not sure, I think quality can increase with the grade. The reason I want to climber harder grades is because I can then jump on increasingly badass routes (i think thats the technical term?) not because i want a number on my CV. Harder routes often have more exposure, travel through wilder territory, have cooler moves, and uh...less polish. Also, (disclaimer - my personal theory) the harder the grade gets the more improbable the line is (unless its eliminate) and so the more striking the moves and line should be? Hence why so many high E routes get so many stars despite only getting done once a year.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):


I did wonder if someone would mention this... but for every Aidan Roberts (who was watched/coached by supremely competent people??) there are dozens who dangerously don't know what they're doing. And, even for the most talented, there are perilously few short-cuts. I still remember the awful sadness of Rachel Farmer's death. She was so young, so much of her life unlived, so much she could have given to the world.


Agreed but, if you skip grades, you miss out on some wonderful experiences 'at the grade'. As per Goucho's post above, there's a joy of moving up (and down!) the grades (which are ultimately only benchmarks anyway). And there's less chance of the rock getting knackered.

But perhaps my strongest argument for moving up the grades carefully is that... collecting routes is fundamentally different from collecting artefacts. Climbing can get you killed! You've got more chance of surviving mishaps than epics. And, when you end up in a full blown horrorshow, all that experience you got working through the grades suddenly becomes your best friend.

Mick

In reply to Alex the Alex:


True, but these routes have all these qualities irrespective of the grade or number of stars - they were all there when humankind was still banging about in caves trying to discover fire. You could grade Left Wall VS, or E9, and it wouldn't change a single aspect of either the the routes difficulty, position, quality or experience.

In reply to Mick Ward:
I remember going to the rescue of a young guy who had fallen off the top pitch of Equus on Gimmer. We were on Eastern Hammer when we heard this scream followed by the sound of ripping gear, followed by a sickening bone crunching thud of a body hitting rock very hard.

His second managed to lower him back to the belay, and I down climbed and traversed over to him. His head was split open, his face was battered, there was blood everywhere, plus he had a bone sticking through the sleeve of his fleece.

My second joined us, and I dispatched his second to abb off and get down to the ODG to get the MR. We tended his wounds as best we could, but realised he was going into shock and in a bad way. To try and get him to medical attention asap, I abbed off with him strapped to my back, and when we got him back to the ground, we were able to wrap him up warm, and also tend to some of his wounds better - first aid and clothing from our sacs.

The MR arrived about 10 minutes later and took over.

Later that evening we met his second in the ODG and asked how his mate was? He was in hospital and a bit bashed up, but he was going to be OK. We then found out, that prior to getting on Equus, his hardest route was Kipling Groove the previous day, but he wanted to get up to E grades really badly.

And the moral of this story?

Be realistic with your climbing dreams, and take your time, because you're a long time dead, and the routes you want to do aren't going anywhere in the meantime.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):


Ha! Hadn't noticed that! Come on Felix, you'll get it in the end!

In reply to Goucho:

good advice & story to go with
I'm definitely guilty of this sometimes

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

I was going to put a vote in for Cockblock. I bet by proportion it doesn't have a very successful insight rate, however I then thought that it probably has had a few onsights. So maybe actually Hell's Wall or Strawberries. As Strawberries has had 3 onsights (Verhoeven, Glowacz and McClure) maybe Hell's Wall has the highest on sight failure rate. As far as I know only Mclure has on sighted. Although be interesting to know the total number of people that have tried each of them to get an idea of the failure rate.

Ed

In reply to Ed Booth:

There's definitely some tough ones out there in the upper grades. Cockblock (E5 6b) definitely gets a good number of onsights though just looking at the graph compared to Gates of Mordor (E3 5c)

At E5, with definitely a bigger failure that Cockblock is Pigeon Toad Orange Peel (E5 6b). Hardly any logs, though I know it's been tried by loads of people. Not sure its actually had an onsight yet... Unfortunately some of the data just isn't going to exist...

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

If I recall, Indian Face has had two onsight attempts (Readhead, before Dawes, and Caff; any more?), neither of which succeeded. So zero out of two gives a 100% failure rate. Any advance on that?

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Technically we did have an initial entry of at least 30 attempts, because routes like that were inevitably going to skew it! There's plenty of those routes out there at 100% failure and more than 3 attempts...

In reply to Goucho:

I'm sorry. Your story resonates... Once Nige Bulmer and I were just about to start something (Poacher?) on Gimmer when we heard exactly the same sequence of scream, gear ripping and obscene thud. A squaddie had lobbed off The Crack. I've not done it but everyone seemed to think it had bomber gear where he was. And yet it ripped. His mates seemed little more than beginners. They could have had a great day out somewhere more benign, taken it easy, worked up the grades carefully. Instead he died.


Yes indeed.

Mick

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Would the Cuilling ridge traverse be a candidate, at least for a multi-pitch route? Many attempts; high failure rate.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

How about Obsession at Malham Upper Tier? Certainly the hardest-fought 7b+ I've done, way harder than all three 7cs I've done back south...

I'm just not sure that many people bother logging DNFs. For grit sandbags, I'd guess Terazza Crack, Surgeon's Saunter or Rat's Tail (Higgar).

In reply to MG:

greater than 50% ?

In reply to Stefan Kruger:

I'm sure there's loads of sport routes with super high failure rates... trying to stick to trad.

Rat's tail - yeah that's a toughie! And Rat Scabies at Curbar too...

In reply to John Roberts (JR):


I reckon

In reply to MG:

I'm not sure about that, but we'll probably never know...

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Actually also Lepton (f6C+) back when it was E3, though think we're pushing the limit of bouldering with that. always felt by far the hardest of the circuit of E1 - E5 solo routes in the kayak area. The graph on Lepton is telling...

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Well I've tried four times and succeeded twice. You can't argue with that sort of data.

In reply to MG:
Only the first go counts... (for the purposes of this data)

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Ah. IN that case you are right - it's 100% success!

In reply to Just Another Dave:


BUT... how many people bother to log DNFs and dogged ascents?

In reply to ianstevens:

Quite a few on some stuff, gates of mordor being an example. Or London wall or Kelly's overhang etc. it's not perfect data tho that's a given.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):


Both!

In reply to Goucho:


True, but working routes that are above your onsight grade also helps many to improve.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Yes but they get in the way of onsighters on trad routes

In reply to Bulls Crack:

First come first served I guess

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Mirage (E3 6a)

Think this is more that 50% failure rate...and I failed, damn it.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

One thing worth thinking about when interpreting logbook statistics is that routes known to be safe for a grade may attract more aspirants to that grade than routes known to be bold, and so have higher failure rates.

Anyway, here's a route from Scotland (seemingly so far unrepresented on this thread) which appears to have a high failure rate. I failed to onsight it myself. The Struggler (E3 6a)

In reply to Wicamoi:

Another 1 for Scotland:
Dunkeld Marjorie Razorblade (E3 6a)

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Probably something like 12000 Miles at Cheddar. Roadside with awkward start

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

If I get chance in the next week or so (ie if it's a wet bank holiday) I'll try and do the maths on some of the suggested routes...

It would be great if UKC could run it on the database tho, as it would probably take just as long...!?

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Tippler Direct?:

Tippler Direct (E3 6a)

In reply to John Gillott:

think that's one of the few with DNF > Dogged

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Assuming that UKC logs are a fair reflection of the UK as a whole, and especially in relation to being entirely honest about ascent styles !

In reply to John Roberts (JR):


Yup, you can't frig it to the top of that one - you either do the crux move or you do the reverse/ab for gear of shame. I've added two 'dnf's to the list, sadly. It's such a tempting proposition: amazing line; good gear; safe crux; easy climbing up until it gets hard; a solid E3 tick if you make it; worth a punt

In reply to John Roberts (JR):


This is going to be quite some ticklist when it's done!

In reply to GrahamD:


in the absence of any other data... yup.

In reply to ashtond6:
Oh yeah! You're the tw*t who fell on that death peg at Rivelin whilst trying to impress Ste Mac and his kids aren't you?

Stay away from Orpheus Wall as well!

Punter.

In reply to John Roberts (JR): What about King Of Kings at Anglezarke? Its been around for 30 years and only had 1 onsight, despite many attempts.

Andy F

In reply to sfletch:

Haha 10/10!!!!
Death peg now = safe peg

In reply to Offwidth:

I love that Picture of Chris in the Froggatt guide making the start of that Chimney routes look dead easy (in tennis shoes).

Last time I was there he pointed me at various little problems including that Chimney and I grovelled up it using the chock stone and then he floated up it in about 4 seconds and then down climbed it with nonchalant ease.

There's a lot to be said with knowing the technique and being bloody good at it.

ps I was great fun trying some of Chris's problems - had a great day.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Chequer's Crack must be one of those routes that burns itself into your memory. I remember getting to that big ledge half way up and lying down I was so knackered! It must have taken me another 20 min to do the rest of the route because I was so tired from the start.

Great route!

In reply to SGD:

I'll let him know. Chris is a star as far as knowledge and assistance on quite a few peak crags, but especially on Birchen. Those who listen soon learn to take the road to floating up his problems as well.