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Ardheslaig Ardheslaig is a small, but lovely crag of glorious, rolling gneiss. The rock is similar to that at nearby Diabaig, and therefore immaculate in anyone's book. The routes are slabby and of good quality, providing some good leads or engaging solos, depending on your standard. Although by a road, the crag is in a quite remote and unspoiled area, and in a fairly wild setting. This is very definitely not some grubby urban quarry.
I climbed at the crag today. Perhaps the best route is The Scoop. Someone has recently dry tooled this route. The number of crampon scratches is surprising - think Aonach Eagach - and their delineated paleness against the dark, weathered rock is quite brutal. They look like they were done yesterday; perhaps they were. Their presence in this beautiful place really rather spoiled my day.
If you did this, then I ask you not do it again. If you are happy in your own mind with having such an impact on the rock when you climb, then please consider the minds of other people, other users of the rock, and do your climbing on one of the less visited gneiss crags in the area - preferably one of those without established routes - there are literally hundreds to chose from.
I climbed at the crag today. Perhaps the best route is The Scoop. Someone has recently dry tooled this route. The number of crampon scratches is surprising - think Aonach Eagach - and their delineated paleness against the dark, weathered rock is quite brutal. They look like they were done yesterday; perhaps they were. Their presence in this beautiful place really rather spoiled my day.
If you did this, then I ask you not do it again. If you are happy in your own mind with having such an impact on the rock when you climb, then please consider the minds of other people, other users of the rock, and do your climbing on one of the less visited gneiss crags in the area - preferably one of those without established routes - there are literally hundreds to chose from.
38
In reply to Wicamoi:
I can't think of a stupider place to dry tool. Not just because it's a well established rock-climbing venue with immaculate rock, but also because the training value of slabby rock is limited to the point of uselessness. Rant follows...
Want to climb harder mixed routes? Good. Want to train? Good. Get strong and learn how to pull on axes. Balancing up a slab in crampons with axes adding little or nothing to the equation is going to neither of the above. All it's going to do is make some inadequate wannabe feel gratified because they actually got up something on a top-rope. It doesn't make them any better equipped to crack the magical tech 5 barrier, it just f***s up some rock and makes them look like tw*ts.
I can't think of a stupider place to dry tool. Not just because it's a well established rock-climbing venue with immaculate rock, but also because the training value of slabby rock is limited to the point of uselessness. Rant follows...
Want to climb harder mixed routes? Good. Want to train? Good. Get strong and learn how to pull on axes. Balancing up a slab in crampons with axes adding little or nothing to the equation is going to neither of the above. All it's going to do is make some inadequate wannabe feel gratified because they actually got up something on a top-rope. It doesn't make them any better equipped to crack the magical tech 5 barrier, it just f***s up some rock and makes them look like tw*ts.
9
1
In reply to Jamie B:
err no! for the kind of grades that most mere mortals climb winter at, training on slabs is extremely important! its only the very top grades which are sustained overhangs, so why should only the grade VIII climber be able to train and not the grade III? there is a cronic shortage of tooling in this country anyway, and that is the problem. and to top it off I can only think of 2 slabby tooling routes, both at newtyle. besides tooling is an enjoyable entity in its own right and not just a training method
> but also because the training value of slabby rock is limited to the point of uselessness. Rant follows...
err no! for the kind of grades that most mere mortals climb winter at, training on slabs is extremely important! its only the very top grades which are sustained overhangs, so why should only the grade VIII climber be able to train and not the grade III? there is a cronic shortage of tooling in this country anyway, and that is the problem. and to top it off I can only think of 2 slabby tooling routes, both at newtyle. besides tooling is an enjoyable entity in its own right and not just a training method
2
32
In reply to Webster:
I'll put your comments above down to the misinformed exuberance of youth, and a complete lack of understanding of the tradition and ethics of climbing in this country.
And then we can all all try and think of all those Grade III winter routes which require dry tool training to get up???
> err no! for the kind of grades that most mere mortals climb winter at, training on slabs is extremely important! its only the very top grades which are sustained overhangs, so why should only the grade VIII climber be able to train and not the grade III? there is a cronic shortage of tooling in this country anyway, and that is the problem. and to top it off I can only think of 2 slabby tooling routes, both at newtyle. besides tooling is an enjoyable entity in its own right and not just a training method
I'll put your comments above down to the misinformed exuberance of youth, and a complete lack of understanding of the tradition and ethics of climbing in this country.
And then we can all all try and think of all those Grade III winter routes which require dry tool training to get up???
Post edited at 12:00
22
1
In reply to Webster:
Because the grade VIII climber needs to, the grade III climber doesn't. At that grade you just turn up and climb.
..which suggests that the people who are motivated enough to go out and actually develop venues would agree with me on the value(?) of easy/slabby routes.
Dry-tooling as I understand it is a physical and technical work-out. Top-roping slabs in crampons is a meaningless and in this case harmful exercise in pretending to be something. I wouldn't encourage it, even tacitly.
> why should only the grade VIII climber be able to train and not the grade III?
Because the grade VIII climber needs to, the grade III climber doesn't. At that grade you just turn up and climb.
> there is a cronic shortage of tooling in this country anyway, and that is the problem. and to top it off I can only think of 2 slabby tooling routes, both at newtyle.
..which suggests that the people who are motivated enough to go out and actually develop venues would agree with me on the value(?) of easy/slabby routes.
Dry-tooling as I understand it is a physical and technical work-out. Top-roping slabs in crampons is a meaningless and in this case harmful exercise in pretending to be something. I wouldn't encourage it, even tacitly.
Post edited at 12:20
9
1
In reply to Webster:
Err, we did grade VII routes back in the 1980s with straight shafted tools with wrist loops and didn't feel the need to dry tool existing venues No need to start now.
Err, we did grade VII routes back in the 1980s with straight shafted tools with wrist loops and didn't feel the need to dry tool existing venues No need to start now.
13
In reply to Bob:
Grade V's using MacInnes Thunderbird's, bendy Salewa Crampons on semi rigid boots, wearing Dachstein Mitts, Molecord breeches, and Helly Hansen pull over Cags (the ultimate sweatbox's).
And making sure you didn't knock too much ice off pitches and spoil it for the party following
> Err, we did grade VII routes back in the 1980s with straight shafted tools with wrist loops and didn't feel the need to dry tool existing venues No need to start now.
Grade V's using MacInnes Thunderbird's, bendy Salewa Crampons on semi rigid boots, wearing Dachstein Mitts, Molecord breeches, and Helly Hansen pull over Cags (the ultimate sweatbox's).
And making sure you didn't knock too much ice off pitches and spoil it for the party following
1
1
In reply to Goucho:
Whilst actually knocking off just enough that they couldn't do it (wanders off whistling idly .....)
> And making sure you didn't knock too much ice off pitches and spoil it for the party following
Whilst actually knocking off just enough that they couldn't do it (wanders off whistling idly .....)
In reply to Goucho:
You asked for this...
youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo&
> Grade V's using MacInnes Thunderbird's, bendy Salewa Crampons on semi rigid boots, wearing Dachstein Mitts, Molecord breeches, and Helly Hansen pull over Cags (the ultimate sweatbox's).
You asked for this...
youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo&
2
In reply to planetmarshall:
With the climbing parodies that have been done for Downfall, I'm amazed no one has done one of this - it's certainly crying out for it.
Now let me see?
> You asked for this...
With the climbing parodies that have been done for Downfall, I'm amazed no one has done one of this - it's certainly crying out for it.
Now let me see?
In reply to planetmarshall:
Four Old Climbers Sketch
Four elderly climbers are sitting together under a crag in Kalymnos (the names are purely coincidental)
Bob: Ahh.. Very passable, this, very passable.
Rick: Nothing like a good day in't sun clipping bolts, ay Goucho?
Goucho: You're right there Rick.
Grid North: Who'd a thought thirty years ago we'd all be sittin' ere after a day of climbing routes wi a runner every 8'?
Bob: Aye. In them days, we'd a' been glad to have a runner every 80'.
Rick: Aye, a manky MOAC original on a piece of worn out tat.
Goucho: A MOAC original?.
Rick: When I said MOAC original, I meant knotted sock!
Bob: In a filthy, water soaked crack.
Grid North: Knotted sock? We never even ad' a knotted sock. We had to pretend we ad' a knotted sock.
Rick: Well, we didn't even ave' a proper rope. Just an old tow rope.
Goucho: Tow rope? We had to tie our breeches together if we wanted a rope.
Grid North: But you know, we were happy in those days, even though gear were crap.
Bob: Aye. BECAUSE gear were crap. My old Dad used to say to me, "Good gear won't make you better or happy."
Rick: 'E was right. I was happier then and I had NOTHIN'. We used to climb all the great North faces wi' nowt but one alpenstock, onepair of instep crampons, a couple o' 6 inch nails as ice screws, and a pacamac to keep out cold - between four of us.
Goucho: Pacamac? You were lucky to have a PACAMAC! We used to ave' to share an old sheep dogs blanket between five of us at bivi ledges!
Grid North: Bivi ledges? You were lucky to have a BIVI LEDGES! Six of us used to have to share a foothold!
Bob: Ohhhh we used to DREAM of bein able to share a foothold! Woulda' been a palace to us. The seven of us used to bivi on vertical ice on a ledge no bigger than a packet of fags, which you had to make usin your teeth. We got woken up every half an hour by cramp and got frostbite in every toe.
Grid North: Well when I say "foothold" it was only the size of a matchstick, but it was a foothold to US.
Goucho: We were hit by stonefall on *our* foothold, which split our heads open!
Rick: You were lucky! There were eight of us hanging from a tied off nail, when an avalanche swept us 300' down the face. It were only t' sleeve of pacamac jamming behind a flake that saved us.
Bob: 300'?
Rick: Aye.
Bob: You were lucky. We were swept 900' down Droites North Face into a crevase, and were stuck there for 3 weeks. All we ad to eat were one crust of bread, a tea bag, and an old Mars Bar wrapper. We used to have to take it in turns to suck tea bag and lick crust of bread. It were so cold our fingers and toes snapped off!
Goucho: Luxury. We were trapped in a storm on the Eiger North Face for 15 months! All we ad were a knotted hanky for a bivi tent, and one Dachstein mitt and the sleeve of an old wollen sweater between nine of us.The only food, we had were half an inch of bacon rind!
Grid North: Well we had it tough. On Everest, all we had at Camp 6 were a shoebox - for twelve of us! We used to have to get up at twelve o'clock at night, and LICK the South Col clean with our tongues. All we had to eat were a handful of freezing cold scree. We climbed twenty-four hours a day wearing nowt but shorts and a tank top, and one night it was so cold, our tongues stuck to the roof of our mouths.
Rick: Right. Fifteen of us were on't West Buttress of Makalu. The only clothing we ad between us were a scouts woggle. We had to get up at five in the morning, and fix 6,000' of pretend fixed ropes in a blizzard. The following morning we had to get up four hours before we went to bed, cut our own frostbitten arms off with a blunt ice axe, eat an ice screw, climb without a rest for forty nine hours kicking steps in our bare feet, and when we reached t' summit, we ad to leave our frostbitten legs there, and slide all the way back down on our arses.
Bob: But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'.
ALL: Nope, nope..
Four Old Climbers Sketch
Four elderly climbers are sitting together under a crag in Kalymnos (the names are purely coincidental)
Bob: Ahh.. Very passable, this, very passable.
Rick: Nothing like a good day in't sun clipping bolts, ay Goucho?
Goucho: You're right there Rick.
Grid North: Who'd a thought thirty years ago we'd all be sittin' ere after a day of climbing routes wi a runner every 8'?
Bob: Aye. In them days, we'd a' been glad to have a runner every 80'.
Rick: Aye, a manky MOAC original on a piece of worn out tat.
Goucho: A MOAC original?.
Rick: When I said MOAC original, I meant knotted sock!
Bob: In a filthy, water soaked crack.
Grid North: Knotted sock? We never even ad' a knotted sock. We had to pretend we ad' a knotted sock.
Rick: Well, we didn't even ave' a proper rope. Just an old tow rope.
Goucho: Tow rope? We had to tie our breeches together if we wanted a rope.
Grid North: But you know, we were happy in those days, even though gear were crap.
Bob: Aye. BECAUSE gear were crap. My old Dad used to say to me, "Good gear won't make you better or happy."
Rick: 'E was right. I was happier then and I had NOTHIN'. We used to climb all the great North faces wi' nowt but one alpenstock, onepair of instep crampons, a couple o' 6 inch nails as ice screws, and a pacamac to keep out cold - between four of us.
Goucho: Pacamac? You were lucky to have a PACAMAC! We used to ave' to share an old sheep dogs blanket between five of us at bivi ledges!
Grid North: Bivi ledges? You were lucky to have a BIVI LEDGES! Six of us used to have to share a foothold!
Bob: Ohhhh we used to DREAM of bein able to share a foothold! Woulda' been a palace to us. The seven of us used to bivi on vertical ice on a ledge no bigger than a packet of fags, which you had to make usin your teeth. We got woken up every half an hour by cramp and got frostbite in every toe.
Grid North: Well when I say "foothold" it was only the size of a matchstick, but it was a foothold to US.
Goucho: We were hit by stonefall on *our* foothold, which split our heads open!
Rick: You were lucky! There were eight of us hanging from a tied off nail, when an avalanche swept us 300' down the face. It were only t' sleeve of pacamac jamming behind a flake that saved us.
Bob: 300'?
Rick: Aye.
Bob: You were lucky. We were swept 900' down Droites North Face into a crevase, and were stuck there for 3 weeks. All we ad to eat were one crust of bread, a tea bag, and an old Mars Bar wrapper. We used to have to take it in turns to suck tea bag and lick crust of bread. It were so cold our fingers and toes snapped off!
Goucho: Luxury. We were trapped in a storm on the Eiger North Face for 15 months! All we ad were a knotted hanky for a bivi tent, and one Dachstein mitt and the sleeve of an old wollen sweater between nine of us.The only food, we had were half an inch of bacon rind!
Grid North: Well we had it tough. On Everest, all we had at Camp 6 were a shoebox - for twelve of us! We used to have to get up at twelve o'clock at night, and LICK the South Col clean with our tongues. All we had to eat were a handful of freezing cold scree. We climbed twenty-four hours a day wearing nowt but shorts and a tank top, and one night it was so cold, our tongues stuck to the roof of our mouths.
Rick: Right. Fifteen of us were on't West Buttress of Makalu. The only clothing we ad between us were a scouts woggle. We had to get up at five in the morning, and fix 6,000' of pretend fixed ropes in a blizzard. The following morning we had to get up four hours before we went to bed, cut our own frostbitten arms off with a blunt ice axe, eat an ice screw, climb without a rest for forty nine hours kicking steps in our bare feet, and when we reached t' summit, we ad to leave our frostbitten legs there, and slide all the way back down on our arses.
Bob: But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'.
ALL: Nope, nope..
Post edited at 16:34
35
In reply to Webster:
It's totally unneccesary as up to at least grade V ice and mixed you don't need to train using dry tooling! That's why there's no slabby dry tooling venues. Anyhow there's loads of old bridges and the like that are suitable for dry tooling. not some beautiful gneiss crag in the NW Highlands.
> err no! for the kind of grades that most mere mortals climb winter at, training on slabs is extremely important! its only the very top grades which are sustained overhangs, so why should only the grade VIII climber be able to train and not the grade III? there is a cronic shortage of tooling in this country anyway, and that is the problem. and to top it off I can only think of 2 slabby tooling routes, both at newtyle. besides tooling is an enjoyable entity in its own right and not just a training method
It's totally unneccesary as up to at least grade V ice and mixed you don't need to train using dry tooling! That's why there's no slabby dry tooling venues. Anyhow there's loads of old bridges and the like that are suitable for dry tooling. not some beautiful gneiss crag in the NW Highlands.
1
In reply to Bob:
Mick Fowler and others did Grade VII in the 70's with (probably ) original terrors.
It was suggested at the time that 6 inch nails for the hands would be fairer to the mountain.
> Err, we did grade VII routes back in the 1980s with straight shafted tools with wrist loops and didn't feel the need to dry tool existing venues No need to start now.
Mick Fowler and others did Grade VII in the 70's with (probably ) original terrors.
It was suggested at the time that 6 inch nails for the hands would be fairer to the mountain.
In reply to Wicamoi: I saw the atrocious scratching on this route at Ardheslaig in May and have just been back today. It looks no better and won't for many years, particularly offensive on such a slabby textured line. As our course groups use this venue a lot in winter for rock climbing and abseiling I'll be quizzing my instructors to check that none of them are responsible for this. It shows total lack of regard for the aesthetics of the rock. We do trial crampon use on scruffy turfy routes at the side of the crag and there are some dry tool problems on the unlisted overhanging crag on the opposite side of the road. Whether or not it is one of our instructors who sanctioned this, I will be issuing strict guidelines to our staff at the start of next season on what is acceptable terrain for dry tooling, and this information will be passed to our students. Many people are getting into climbing these days without any awareness of beauty, ethics or traditions. It must be part of the job of guides and instructors to provide this education.
22
In reply to Goucho:
Priceless. That had me proper chuckling out loud. Maybe missed an audience on this thread about dry tooling? It really deserves a wider airing.
Priceless. That had me proper chuckling out loud. Maybe missed an audience on this thread about dry tooling? It really deserves a wider airing.
> Four Old Climbers Sketch
> Four elderly climbers are sitting together under a crag in Kalymnos (the names are purely coincidental)
> Bob: Ahh.. Very passable, this, very passable.
> Rick: Nothing like a good day in't sun clipping bolts, ay Goucho?
> Goucho: You're right there Rick.
> Grid North: Who'd a thought thirty years ago we'd all be sittin' ere after a day of climbing routes wi a runner every 8'?
> Bob: Aye. In them days, we'd a' been glad to have a runner every 80'.
> Rick: Aye, a manky MOAC original on a piece of worn out tat.
> Goucho: A MOAC original?.
> Rick: When I said MOAC original, I meant knotted sock!
> Bob: In a filthy, water soaked crack.
> Grid North: Knotted sock? We never even ad' a knotted sock. We had to pretend we ad' a knotted sock.
> Rick: Well, we didn't even ave' a proper rope. Just an old tow rope.
> Goucho: Tow rope? We had to tie our breeches together if we wanted a rope.
> Grid North: But you know, we were happy in those days, even though gear were crap.
> Bob: Aye. BECAUSE gear were crap. My old Dad used to say to me, "Good gear won't make you better or happy."
> Rick: 'E was right. I was happier then and I had NOTHIN'. We used to climb all the great North faces wi' nowt but one alpenstock, onepair of instep crampons, a couple o' 6 inch nails as ice screws, and a pacamac to keep out cold - between four of us.
> Goucho: Pacamac? You were lucky to have a PACAMAC! We used to ave' to share an old sheep dogs blanket between five of us at bivi ledges!
> Grid North: Bivi ledges? You were lucky to have a BIVI LEDGES! Six of us used to have to share a foothold!
> Bob: Ohhhh we used to DREAM of bein able to share a foothold! Woulda' been a palace to us. The seven of us used to bivi on vertical ice on a ledge no bigger than a packet of fags, which you had to make usin your teeth. We got woken up every half an hour by cramp and got frostbite in every toe.
> Grid North: Well when I say "foothold" it was only the size of a matchstick, but it was a foothold to US.
> Goucho: We were hit by stonefall on *our* foothold, which split our heads open!
> Rick: You were lucky! There were eight of us hanging from a tied off nail, when an avalanche swept us 300' down the face. It were only t' sleeve of pacamac jamming behind a flake that saved us.
> Bob: 300'?
> Rick: Aye.
> Bob: You were lucky. We were swept 900' down Droites North Face into a crevase, and were stuck there for 3 weeks. All we ad to eat were one crust of bread, a tea bag, and an old Mars Bar wrapper. We used to have to take it in turns to suck tea bag and lick crust of bread. It were so cold our fingers and toes snapped off!
> Goucho: Luxury. We were trapped in a storm on the Eiger North Face for 15 months! All we ad were a knotted hanky for a bivi tent, and one Dachstein mitt and the sleeve of an old wollen sweater between nine of us.The only food, we had were half an inch of bacon rind!
> Grid North: Well we had it tough. On Everest, all we had at Camp 6 were a shoebox - for twelve of us! We used to have to get up at twelve o'clock at night, and LICK the South Col clean with our tongues. All we had to eat were a handful of freezing cold scree. We climbed twenty-four hours a day wearing nowt but shorts and a tank top, and one night it was so cold, our tongues stuck to the roof of our mouths.
> Rick: Right. Fifteen of us were on't West Buttress of Makalu. The only clothing we ad between us were a scouts woggle. We had to get up at five in the morning, and fix 6,000' of pretend fixed ropes in a blizzard. The following morning we had to get up four hours before we went to bed, cut our own frostbitten arms off with a blunt ice axe, eat an ice screw, climb without a rest for forty nine hours kicking steps in our bare feet, and when we reached t' summit, we ad to leave our frostbitten legs there, and slide all the way back down on our arses.
> Bob: But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'.
> ALL: Nope, nope..
In reply to Jamie B:
Either you're a prick or even worse... elitist prick.
Some people might need to train for Grade 1, others don't need to train for Grade VI or what ever.
That said, drytoolin' existing rock routes is a big no-no.
> Because the grade VIII climber needs to, the grade III climber doesn't. At that grade you just turn up and climb.
Either you're a prick or even worse... elitist prick.
Some people might need to train for Grade 1, others don't need to train for Grade VI or what ever.
That said, drytoolin' existing rock routes is a big no-no.
3
11
In reply to HeMa:
But going jogging and some easy rock climbing is great training for IIIs, indeed it's what plenty of VI climbers do for training also!
But going jogging and some easy rock climbing is great training for IIIs, indeed it's what plenty of VI climbers do for training also!
3
In reply to TobyA:
What!!! I though drinkin' beer was the only appropriate way of trainin' for Scottish winter climbing.
Ps. How busy are you going to be this winter? Any change of a quick Scotland trip?
> But going jogging and some easy rock climbing is great training for IIIs, indeed it's what plenty of VI climbers do for training also!
What!!! I though drinkin' beer was the only appropriate way of trainin' for Scottish winter climbing.
Ps. How busy are you going to be this winter? Any change of a quick Scotland trip?
Post edited at 09:53
1
In reply to MartinMoran:
Thanks for your emphatic response Martin - good to hear it. Less good to learn that the scratches that were so stark and fresh-looking last week were already at least three months old: I guess you are right that they will be visible for many years.
I have some sympathy for those who want more easy dry tooling routes to train on, and I also agree with webster that dry-tooling can be regarded as an experience in its own right (even if it's one that doesn't interest me) and not just a training method for the real thing. But there are so many options for dry-tooling in the area that wouldn't offend anyone (or hardly anyone), like the examples you mention, that it seems incredibly anti-social to have scratched one's way up such an attractive and popular route. Well, such things are often done in ignorance rather than spite, and hopefully the lesson has been learnt. In any case this seems to be a rare example of a thread on ukc with near universal agreement, and with one exception, ahem, a polite one.
Thanks for your emphatic response Martin - good to hear it. Less good to learn that the scratches that were so stark and fresh-looking last week were already at least three months old: I guess you are right that they will be visible for many years.
I have some sympathy for those who want more easy dry tooling routes to train on, and I also agree with webster that dry-tooling can be regarded as an experience in its own right (even if it's one that doesn't interest me) and not just a training method for the real thing. But there are so many options for dry-tooling in the area that wouldn't offend anyone (or hardly anyone), like the examples you mention, that it seems incredibly anti-social to have scratched one's way up such an attractive and popular route. Well, such things are often done in ignorance rather than spite, and hopefully the lesson has been learnt. In any case this seems to be a rare example of a thread on ukc with near universal agreement, and with one exception, ahem, a polite one.
1
In reply to HeMa:
Nice. Maybe I am a prick, I'll leave that for folk that have actually met me to judge.
I'm definitely not an elitist though. I'm an mid-grade punter who has got up a good spread of IVs and Vs over the years without feeling the need for any special training beyond general fitness. Pretty much your average Scottish winter climber in fact.
I recognise that I'll need to train if I'm ever going to get onto grade VI, although some might get there through natural talent. But I struggle to imagine what training for grade I might look like?
So we agree on the central point of the thread. So why pick fights around the periphery? Pent-up aggression? It's not very admirable when you couch it in the terms that you did. You should have seen the response that I *almost* posted...
> Either you're a prick or even worse... elitist prick.
Nice. Maybe I am a prick, I'll leave that for folk that have actually met me to judge.
I'm definitely not an elitist though. I'm an mid-grade punter who has got up a good spread of IVs and Vs over the years without feeling the need for any special training beyond general fitness. Pretty much your average Scottish winter climber in fact.
> Some people might need to train for Grade 1, others don't need to train for Grade VI or what ever.
I recognise that I'll need to train if I'm ever going to get onto grade VI, although some might get there through natural talent. But I struggle to imagine what training for grade I might look like?
> That said, drytoolin' existing rock routes is a big no-no.
So we agree on the central point of the thread. So why pick fights around the periphery? Pent-up aggression? It's not very admirable when you couch it in the terms that you did. You should have seen the response that I *almost* posted...
4
1
In reply to Jamie B:
Because it's raining outside and I'm cranky...
But most of all, because stating that you don't need to train for this and that (grade) is indeed elitist prick bullshite.
Most might not need to do anything. I certainly didn't do anything special other than go out to climb a few VI's. But people are different.
That said, I don't have a clue what grade I would mean, nor how to train for it. But that's besides the point, that some one might have to. And neither you, nor anyone else can state that they don't and can't. As long as they follow normal ethics, which are pretty clear on say drytooling existing non-mountain rock-routes.
> So why pick fights around the periphery?
Because it's raining outside and I'm cranky...
But most of all, because stating that you don't need to train for this and that (grade) is indeed elitist prick bullshite.
Most might not need to do anything. I certainly didn't do anything special other than go out to climb a few VI's. But people are different.
That said, I don't have a clue what grade I would mean, nor how to train for it. But that's besides the point, that some one might have to. And neither you, nor anyone else can state that they don't and can't. As long as they follow normal ethics, which are pretty clear on say drytooling existing non-mountain rock-routes.
2
6
In reply to HeMa:
Yes, but that doesn't mean you should call people you don't know rude names. Jamie is a good guy and his point is a good one: dry tooling isn't get train anyone to get up Is, IIs, and IIIs - it's just not very similar an activity, plus of course it does quickly mess up the rock.
> Because it's raining outside and I'm cranky...
Yes, but that doesn't mean you should call people you don't know rude names. Jamie is a good guy and his point is a good one: dry tooling isn't get train anyone to get up Is, IIs, and IIIs - it's just not very similar an activity, plus of course it does quickly mess up the rock.
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In reply to TobyA:
Oh, come on Toby.
You now that I'm a prick.
And that comment about being a prick / elitist prick was a direct reply to the point that no training needed for such and such grade... I'm quite tired of that bullshite, which oddly enough seems to go like that you'll only need to start training when you reach a certain level... that just happens to be the level the commenter happened to reach.
Oh, come on Toby.
You now that I'm a prick.
And that comment about being a prick / elitist prick was a direct reply to the point that no training needed for such and such grade... I'm quite tired of that bullshite, which oddly enough seems to go like that you'll only need to start training when you reach a certain level... that just happens to be the level the commenter happened to reach.
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In reply to HeMa:
Valid points, but I wish you could have raised them without calling me a prick. Being exposed to that level of nasty vitriol from a complete stranger does nothing for my day, does it improve yours?
Valid points, but I wish you could have raised them without calling me a prick. Being exposed to that level of nasty vitriol from a complete stranger does nothing for my day, does it improve yours?
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In reply to Jamie B:
Not really, nor does it make it make the day any worse. People in the internet are idiots/nasty/stupid/wise/nice... I don't know, nor do I care and perhaps neither should anyone else.
> Being exposed to that level of nasty vitriol from a complete stranger does nothing for my day, does it improve yours?
Not really, nor does it make it make the day any worse. People in the internet are idiots/nasty/stupid/wise/nice... I don't know, nor do I care and perhaps neither should anyone else.
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In reply to HeMa:
As an occasional winter climber who operates at the entirely mundane grades in question, I can categorically state that no dry tooling was needed when I broke into grade II. Or indeed any training whatsoever. Nor do I expect that any will be needed if I finally take the leap to grade III. And what's holding me back isn't the lack of hours of rehearsing moves on easy angled rock; its having a young family and a busy job, and living too far from places I can do it. Of all the reasons preventing me from breaking into grade III, lack of a specific training regime isn't really a big issue. Jamie is not making an elitist argument.
Cheers
Gregor
> Oh, come on Toby.
> You now that I'm a prick.
> And that comment about being a prick / elitist prick was a direct reply to the point that no training needed for such and such grade... I'm quite tired of that bullshite, which oddly enough seems to go like that you'll only need to start training when you reach a certain level... that just happens to be the level the commenter happened to reach.
As an occasional winter climber who operates at the entirely mundane grades in question, I can categorically state that no dry tooling was needed when I broke into grade II. Or indeed any training whatsoever. Nor do I expect that any will be needed if I finally take the leap to grade III. And what's holding me back isn't the lack of hours of rehearsing moves on easy angled rock; its having a young family and a busy job, and living too far from places I can do it. Of all the reasons preventing me from breaking into grade III, lack of a specific training regime isn't really a big issue. Jamie is not making an elitist argument.
Cheers
Gregor
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In reply to Goucho:
This^^^
but substitute terrordactyls for the MacInnes Thunderbirds, and you're only allowed 2 in a party of 3.........
> Grade V's using MacInnes Thunderbird's, bendy Salewa Crampons on semi rigid boots, wearing Dachstein Mitts, Molecord breeches, and Helly Hansen pull over Cags (the ultimate sweatbox's).
This^^^
but substitute terrordactyls for the MacInnes Thunderbirds, and you're only allowed 2 in a party of 3.........
In reply to HeMa:
There's really no need for you to be like this. Let's all get along, eh
In reply to the OP:
It's strange that the crag is so badly damaged? (It would surely take a lot of people tooling to cause that level of damage.) Anyway, obviously it's an unsuitable spot for tooling.
D.
There's really no need for you to be like this. Let's all get along, eh
In reply to the OP:
It's strange that the crag is so badly damaged? (It would surely take a lot of people tooling to cause that level of damage.) Anyway, obviously it's an unsuitable spot for tooling.
D.
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In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Guess what...
I never stated anything about need for drytoolin'.
I commented this:
--klip--
According to which Grade VIII climbers need to train and grade III don't. Which is like I mentioned about 3 times today, elitist bullshite. And once spewing such are well, go read the original reply.
Guess what...
I never stated anything about need for drytoolin'.
I commented this:
--klip--
> Because the grade VIII climber needs to, the grade III climber doesn't. At that grade you just turn up and climb.
--klip--According to which Grade VIII climbers need to train and grade III don't. Which is like I mentioned about 3 times today, elitist bullshite. And once spewing such are well, go read the original reply.
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In reply to DannyC:
>In reply to HeMa:
>> There's really no need for you to be like this. Let's all get along, eh
Now where's the fun in that???
Heated arguments, name calling and alike are what makes this place worth visiting.
And the occasional bit of information...
>In reply to HeMa:
>> There's really no need for you to be like this. Let's all get along, eh
Now where's the fun in that???
Heated arguments, name calling and alike are what makes this place worth visiting.
And the occasional bit of information...
4
In reply to HeMa:
I beg to differ. It's one of the main reasons why I use this forum less and less, and will probably eventually lead to me closing my account. I'll miss it, it used to be a different beast.
> Heated arguments, name calling and alike are what makes this place worth visiting.
I beg to differ. It's one of the main reasons why I use this forum less and less, and will probably eventually lead to me closing my account. I'll miss it, it used to be a different beast.
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In reply to HeMa:
Actually I know both you and Jamie are nice guys, but if you say something quickly on the the interweb and someone who doesn't know you reads that, they don't know that.
I agree that on web forums like this sometimes its goods to see people who say silly things getting told they are saying silly things, but Jamie's point wasn't silly, even if you disagree. I'm not certain it really applies to you, but I've also noticed that non-native speakers of English can sometimes sound more harsh than they necessarily mean to - swearing and insults are very tricky bits of the language! After all, prick and plonker are both nicknames for the same thing, but you get called a plonker and you might giggle, get called a prick and you get angry.
Actually I know both you and Jamie are nice guys, but if you say something quickly on the the interweb and someone who doesn't know you reads that, they don't know that.
I agree that on web forums like this sometimes its goods to see people who say silly things getting told they are saying silly things, but Jamie's point wasn't silly, even if you disagree. I'm not certain it really applies to you, but I've also noticed that non-native speakers of English can sometimes sound more harsh than they necessarily mean to - swearing and insults are very tricky bits of the language! After all, prick and plonker are both nicknames for the same thing, but you get called a plonker and you might giggle, get called a prick and you get angry.
In reply to TobyA:
I thought that my posts were usually pretty restrained...did I ever tell you that I speak English very well because I learn it in a book?
Going on slabs with crampons and axes isn't dry-tooling, it's calf-taming and fear inducing.... a practice for deviant perverts methinks.
> I'm not certain it really applies to you, but I've also noticed that non-native speakers of English can sometimes sound more harsh than they necessarily mean to - swearing and insults are very tricky bits of the language! After all, prick and plonker are both nicknames for the same thing, but you get called a plonker and you might giggle, get called a prick and you get angry.
I thought that my posts were usually pretty restrained...did I ever tell you that I speak English very well because I learn it in a book?
Going on slabs with crampons and axes isn't dry-tooling, it's calf-taming and fear inducing.... a practice for deviant perverts methinks.
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In reply to DannyC:
Yes, I was very surprised by the extent of the scratching (though the Aonach Eagach comment was somewhat inflationary, I admit). Perhaps there was more than one ascent, or multiple attempts on a top rope, or maybe that's just what happens when cramponed feet skite around on smooth gneiss slabs. It is difficult to imagine that the climber would not have been at least a little bit ashamed when they saw the result of their labours - but maybe they never took a backward glance.
Yes, I was very surprised by the extent of the scratching (though the Aonach Eagach comment was somewhat inflationary, I admit). Perhaps there was more than one ascent, or multiple attempts on a top rope, or maybe that's just what happens when cramponed feet skite around on smooth gneiss slabs. It is difficult to imagine that the climber would not have been at least a little bit ashamed when they saw the result of their labours - but maybe they never took a backward glance.
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In reply to Wicamoi:
I think in the vast majority of these 'dry tooling' cases it will be folk with new toys who don't know about etiquette or the community, going out and playing. No dry toolers I have ever met would go up a slab for fun, or as I spotted in the Peaks up low slopey boulders or in the softest of rock quarries. Thus it's probably a bit unfair to call it dry tooling. Misused winter kit fair enough. Question is how do we get the message out to those who don't use UKC, through our clubs, and posters at walls via the BMCwould be a good start.
I think in the vast majority of these 'dry tooling' cases it will be folk with new toys who don't know about etiquette or the community, going out and playing. No dry toolers I have ever met would go up a slab for fun, or as I spotted in the Peaks up low slopey boulders or in the softest of rock quarries. Thus it's probably a bit unfair to call it dry tooling. Misused winter kit fair enough. Question is how do we get the message out to those who don't use UKC, through our clubs, and posters at walls via the BMCwould be a good start.
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In reply to Wicamoi:
Ridiculous to dry tool on this crag, totally agree, we did most of the routes here back in the early 80´s on a day when the hills were all wet, nice rough rock, remember one route with a wee bold step and a niche stood out as the best.
We never used to write up our west highland climbs( leave for the imagination of others) but it´s nice to see people enjoying the crags.
Ridiculous to dry tool on this crag, totally agree, we did most of the routes here back in the early 80´s on a day when the hills were all wet, nice rough rock, remember one route with a wee bold step and a niche stood out as the best.
We never used to write up our west highland climbs( leave for the imagination of others) but it´s nice to see people enjoying the crags.
In reply to philhilo:
It is not at all unfair to call it dry tooling - given that it was evidently done in the in the dry, with tools.
What would be unfair is using this isolated indiscretion to demonise dry tooling per se. Happily no-one has tried to do that.
It is perhaps worth mentioning that The Scoop, while 80% slab, has a middle section which is near vertical, with perhaps tempting looking hooking and torquing options for those so inclined. So this may not have been done by a complete novice.
> No dry toolers I have ever met would go up a slab for fun [....] Thus it's probably a bit unfair to call it dry tooling.
It is not at all unfair to call it dry tooling - given that it was evidently done in the in the dry, with tools.
What would be unfair is using this isolated indiscretion to demonise dry tooling per se. Happily no-one has tried to do that.
It is perhaps worth mentioning that The Scoop, while 80% slab, has a middle section which is near vertical, with perhaps tempting looking hooking and torquing options for those so inclined. So this may not have been done by a complete novice.
1
In reply to BRUCESTRAC:
I think the route you remember is probably the line immediately to the right of the damaged line, at a similar grade.
I'm with you in regard to not writing up new climbs in this area. I'm in Applecross and Torridon quite often for work and have soloed many undescribed lines on undescribed crags during the long summer evenings. I like exploring, so it seems reasonable to suppose that others do too. The 'leave no traces' ethic can be applied to words as well as crampon scratches.
I think the route you remember is probably the line immediately to the right of the damaged line, at a similar grade.
I'm with you in regard to not writing up new climbs in this area. I'm in Applecross and Torridon quite often for work and have soloed many undescribed lines on undescribed crags during the long summer evenings. I like exploring, so it seems reasonable to suppose that others do too. The 'leave no traces' ethic can be applied to words as well as crampon scratches.
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