UKC

I’m moving to down to the Bolton area shortly, my new house is only a 5-10 min walk from Edgerton quarry. I’ve had a walk around the quarry, and there are some impressive routes to be done. However there is little evidence of anyone climbing there. The place is so overgrown that to do some routes would require a lot of cleaning. Which gave me an idea? There is a sector (Wood buttress area) with some great looking lines on (Gallows Pole for one) anyway it needs some attention and what I would like to do is clean and develops it into a sport wall. All being well the move should be complete in the next 4 weeks, so in the meantime if anyone has any advice or wants to comment on the idea I’d be grateful

In reply to butinski:

0/10 - too obvious

In reply to butinski:

There are a lot of people in the Bolton area who will be more than ready to advise you regarding your radical and innovative ideas - and places to put them.

In reply to butinski: You're right about Egerton and the state it's in; there have been big clean ups in the recent past which have worked for a while and then the place has reverted to it's slightly verdant state. Would bolting it help? Maybe. I suspect the application of Agent Orange would be more effective and probably less controversial.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

It gets more traffic than you might think given the sandiness and vegetation. And it's the worst time of year for the vegetation growth. It's a Lancashire connoisseurs crag, and to be honest, there's enough pegs on the harder stuff to satisfy the hybrid climber...

In reply to butinski:
I was there the other week with the intention of doing a few routes at the Cherry Bomb area. I thought I would start on the 3* VS 4c route called Cherry Bomb but it was clearly evident due to the amount of brambles growing out of the crack that it hadn't been climbed for a considerable amount of time. So we went walkabout and ended up at the Wood Buttress area with the intention of doing Gallows Pole. Again it was apparent that this section had seen little traffic as the place was very overgrown and dirty.
I suppose the solution would be to organise a clean up to try and encourage climbers to visit this great venue. This is good in the short term but............it is unsustainable without the crag receiving regular traffic. I make a comparison with the situation in Yorkshire whereby previously underused crags such as Giggleswick have seen a renaissance due to cleaning and bolting. These crags are kept clean and accessible and are where the sport has a future. The new generation of climbers don't want to spend hours cleaning a dirty hollow and places like Egerton will (or already has) die as a climbing venue.
So the question of sport climbing in Lancashire and the dilemma of how to keep places like Egerton thriving. I love trad climbing but feel that we need to embrace a bit of the Yorkshire ethos. I go back to Giggleswick as a prime example of rejuvenating a wonderful resource for all and sundry to enjoy. How far do you go with bolting. Again I refer to Giggleswick. On the upper crag there is a fine trad section and walk for 15 mins and you can climb a fine sport section. Why can't we do the same in Lancs?

In reply to barn owl:

You lost me when describing Giggleswick as wonderful

In reply to barn owl:
The way to keep them going, is to go and clean them, then let people know. There's a more than active scene in Lancashire cleaning and sorting crags, and keeping them clean. Everyone just needs to do their bit to keep things in a fit state. You can usually find out what people are cleaning and sorting here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1566324270279682/

Take a pair of sheers and chop the brambles on Cherry Bomb (VS 4c) next time you're there. It's a good route, and it'll encourage more people to do it. We did the E2 just left a few weeks ago.

The routes on Wood Buttress have been done only last month too...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153508933044658

In reply to butinski:

Put a bolt in a Lancashire quarry and you're likely to get lynched

In reply to butinski:

I'm happy to remove any you put in....

More people climb there than you might think

In reply to butinski:

Those routes on Wood Buttress are superb trad lines, they just need a bit of TLC and more people to climb them. JR's photo of me climbing God Save The Queen is a case in point, I had to dig out some mud to place some of the gear and pull off some clumps of plant growth, and the top out was a bit character building. This might have some people recoiling in horror, but I'm far from being the boldest of climbers, and underneath it all, that really is a *** route at the grade, about as good as anything I've done at Millstone. Embrace the esoteric, be prepared for the odd battle, and count yourself lucky to have such good routes right on your doorstep.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):


With the exception of Wilton, my experience is that just about every crag in Lancashire has a connoisseurs element.

In reply to goose299:


Really? There are dozens of them in quarries and on natural crags within minutes of where I live - I can reach one in seconds if I sprint! I was speaking to one of 'perpetrators' (a well-known Lancs guidebook editor) a couple of weeks ago and he didn't seem to be having trouble breathing.

In reply to ByEek:

You've never been Thorn Crag? Genuinely better than many grit crags, in fact, it's basically up there with say Burbage boulders, or the Plantation.

Or Witches' Quarry which is a great, clean, small limestone crag. Waxen Doll (E3 6a) is great.

It's a shame Hoghton Quarry has access issues. That would give Millstone a run for it's money if it was open and got traffic...

In reply to ByEek:


Trowbarrow (in Lancashire)? Seems to get plenty of 'connoisseurs'. You can also clip bolts there as well.

In reply to butinski:
I've put lots of effort myself into past Egerton clean ups, only to see the jungle rapidly re-claim the rock and the routes, especially over winter when the climbing is not so appealing. Wilton and Anglezarke remain relatively clean thanks mainly due to their relatively open aspect - but even there regular clean ups are required to keep them in good condition. Egerton suffers from being in a hole so stays damp and vegetated.

The tired arguments that bolting would make the climbs popular and solve all the problems have been raised at BMC area meetings at regular intervals. I fact plenty of routes at Egerton are easy to protect with natural gear - go to Stanage and tremadoc you will find there is no shortage of trad climbers with Manchester/Bolton accents.

If you are local a better solution would be to simply clean routes (less hassle then bolting and you would need to clean them first anyway) and publicise them.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):




But I think this is the problem Lancashire has. I am sure Thorn Crag is amazing, but living in Stockport, it is easier for me to get to Burbage or the Plantation. And if I were to make the effort to go there I might as well drive straight past and go to the Lakes.

As for Witches Quarry - E3 is way to hard for me and Hoghton in all its prehistoric amazingness is a jungle that doesn't exactly say come and climb me.

I really want to like climbing in Lancashire, but it doesn't surprise me that most choose not to.

In reply to kevin stephens:


I think the problem with the arguments about bolting is that no one actually knows what would happen. If one were to bolt a few easier lines in a forgotten corner and see what happened at least we would have an answer.

But I am past the point of being arsed about Lancashire. Most of the "good" climbing in the more esoteric places is now sadly overgrown and unloved. I find it a shame that most would rather see it never climbed again than have it bolted. But that is the argument and I respect that. I just don't bother climbing in Lancashire any more. It is too much effort for little reward.

In reply to Bob:


Ah, come on Bob, you know you love the place.

Gary.

In reply to ByEek:

Your main reason for not climbing in Lancashire is that you live in Cheshire, that is fair enough, but don't dismiss the Lancashire scene because of that. Not everyone lives in Stockport.

I don't climb as much these days, but even when I climbed a lot, I rarely went to the Peak, partly convenience, but largely the quality available in the quarries and crags in Lancashire plus the odd raid in to West Yorkshire, but rarely much further than Heptenstall.

It's about 15 years since I climbed at Egerton, Gallows Pole and one next to it ? It was a bit overgrown then, but nice routes.

In reply to butinski:

I've climbed at Egerton, Wilton, Anglezarke and my local Denham frequently the past couple of months and yes they can get neglected but I just clean what I climb and wouldnt want to see them bolted. Denham in particular is getting more and more traffic the past couple of months, a good clean up of some lines here would be welcome if anyone wants to come help me?

In reply to ByEek:


You're missing out as it's better than many crags actually in the Lakes.

If I lived in Stockport I'd climb in Lancs less than I do for the same reason, that it's quicker to go other places.

In reply to g1m147:

Well hardly "lurve"

The Mutton Dagger buttress on the upper tier is good as are Swan Buttress (most definitely not the secteur to the left of this!) and the Laughter secteur long with one other area I can't remember the name of on the lower tier and The Swallows Nest area has some pleasant routes. The rest of the lower tier is Emporer's new clothes territory really, bolted and easy of access does not automatically mean "good".

In reply to butinski:

Ignoring the original troll.

This same topic comes up several times a year, year in year out. I used to live within walking distance of Wilton and Egerton for a decade yet climbed there maybe 20 times (compared to hundreds of days in the Lakes/Peak). The elephant in the room is that, the odd route excepted, the climbing is an acquired taste and the settings not particularly aesthetic. Bolt a rubbish route (remember the push to bolt Lester Mill?) and you've a rubbish route that's bolted.

Crag clean ups are great fun but they last a year or so if there is little traffic. I have little doubt grid bolting some of these quarries would increase traffic and routes would stay climbable for longer but I still doubt they'd become busy. I have never really understood the (hypothetical) problem with making a decision at the bottom of the route as to whether you climb trad or clip bolts were a route so equipped. In a quarry the rock has no natural aesthetic value (as opposed to Gimmer or Curbar) and bolts do not 'deface' it. To me, in these underused venues, it would seem a sensible compromise: trad climbers get clean routes and sport climbers get their fix.

But it is clear I am in the minority and I accept, if don't understand, the vitriolic anti bolt stance has sway in Lancashire. Locals should determine the direction of their crags and I am no longer local.

In reply to ByEek:


I just checked. From Stockport it's under 40min to the parking for Blackstone Edge, Cows Mouth, Stony Edge, Dove Lowe and all the others in the East Lancs Moors area. It's over 50 min to Hathersage. There have been quite a few boulderers from down your way making regular trips since the bouldering guide came out, so I guess it must be pretty handy.

Thorn crag is also only 20min further from you than Hathersage and you'd be less likely to get stuck in traffic. Admittedly the walk in is a bit longer.

On the routes front, as John mentioned, the Facebook page is useful for seeing where the action is and what has been cleaned recently. Currently Ousels Nest is getting a lot of attention. Once an overgrown jungle, now most routes are clean. I wrote this article last year but cleaning and climbing has continued this year, which is great to see. https://www.thebmc.co.uk/ousels-nest-makes-a-comeback

In reply to Toccata:



Imagine you have decided to attempt a bolted route in a trad style because it also has a few wire placements available. Let's say you're 20ft above your last wire and there is a hard move ahead but there is no gear placement available. However, there is a bolt at waist level that you could easily clip if you wanted to. That is why a bolted route cannot also be a trad route.

In reply to Toccata:



I agree. I scoped out Egerton on a rainy day a few months ago. In its current state I wouldn't be rushing back until I've climbed everything at Wilton, Denham and Witches. Now if it was getting more traffic, then definitely.

In reply to butinski:

Check out the Lancashire Caving and Climbing Club Facebook page. I'd get involved with BMC with your plan for the Quarry and see if they support it. I'd welcome it personally.

Not sure if you're aware but there is a BMC meet at Wilton on 5th September. Wiltonfest. Unfortunately I can't make it but you should if you can, maybe consulting with some of the wider lancs climbing community that actually want to climb rather than score moral victories on an internet forum.

In reply to radddogg:

I think you're missing the point here. These routes make much better trad routes than bolted ones. There are plenty of gear placements. The reason they are unpopular is not because they are chop routes, but because they are a bit dirty and overgrown and because the quarry is tree ridden, wet at the bottom and prone to being midgy. Sticking some bolts in won't change any of that.

Now, if you could find a way of draining the water from the quarry, cutting back the trees and jungle at the bottom and making sure there are good belay stakes at the top of routes, that might be a good way of increasing the usage of the venue.

Alternatively, abseil down and clean your route first, have a great adventure and when you feel lazy go to Wilton instead for the convenient option.

Don't get me wrong, I love sport climbing, I just don't think somewhere like Egerton lends itself to it.

In reply to danm:

Completely agree, I also love sport climbing, Im trying to think of a single line at Denham that would benefit from bolting and cant, lots need climbing and the area could do with a clean but I often take bags of rubbish away and have taken my cubs climbing and cleaning there

In reply to Toccata:


>

Seriously?

Boggy

In reply to radddogg:


That mindset is part of the issue though... Give it some traffic, let people know, and then it'll get more traffic.

In reply to butinski:

Egerton is on the cards for next year, watch this space!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1566324270279682/

In reply to John Roberts (JR):
Not really in reply to you John but hey ho...
I assume the OP is a troll, surely??
But it does make me sad that people seem to see unpopular routes/areas as ripe for bolting.
If you want to do a sport route go to a sport crag and clip bolts, if you want to do a spottlesly clean trad route go to Stanage and climb a starred VS at the popular end (you might have to put up with polish). If you want to have an adventure go to Gogarth, and if you want a bigger adventure go to South Stack. If you want a bit of fun exploring less traveled ground go to Egereton. You might end up faffing around with ropes, hanging on gear, brushing, cleaning and doing very little actual climbing. But that describes some of my most memorable days.
Unpopularity is not of itself a bad thing, different people like different things.
FWIW a couple of years ago I did the FA's of a handful of routes in a couple of quarries that are in lancashire and are by no means popular crags. And yet all the routes were clean enough that I climbed onsight or ground up with the exception of one which I gave a quick brush on ab. I'd imagine that nobody will have been on any of them for the last 18 months at least and yet I'd be equally sure they'd all be perfectly clean and climbable.

In reply to Nik Jennings


I can go to Yorkshire and climb trad or clip bolts. I can go to the Lakes and climb trad or clip bolts. I can go to Derbyshire and do likewise. I can go to N Wales and climb slate both trad and sport. Why can't I do the same in my home county?

In reply to barn owl:

You can.

In reply to barn owl:

And instead you might ask

I can't climb bolted routes in gritstone quarries in Derbyshire, Staffordshire or Yorkshire so why should I in Lancashire?

In reply to Nik Jennings:

Would that be because they are the epitomy of esoteric and about E8?

I am shortly about to have more work/life/climbing balance in my life and despite being an avid bolt clipper for a while now I can't wait to get stuck into some local quarried grit. Ousels is a ten minute drive away. I got spanked on my first visit. My mate really liked the look of a route, but then most of it fell down. But, it is what it is. If you don't like it there's plenty of other stuff to go at in different styles.

In reply to butinski:

Youve chose the wrong place to live if you wanna bolt stuff. Ive a 'How to trad climb' book if you wanna buy it off me.

In reply to Nik Jennings:

Where?

In reply to Nik Jennings:

I reckon, including cleaning, faffing, abbing, grovelling and thrutching we average about 2 routes per evening in the summer, in places like Egerton, Ousels etc driving from South Manchester after work. You can easily do 4 or more at Wilton.


Summit Quarry? Any more? Sound ripe for some ascents...

In reply to Nik Jennings:


Which are these quarries?

In reply to radddogg:

Take a look at his ukc logbook. They're in there. Generally E5-7/8 first ascents, often solo, often on-sight or with minimal cleaning/inspection. Done about 18 maths ago before he moved.

If that's your bag get on it!

In reply to biscuit:

Warland and Summit quarries. The lake district is closer to me in Longridge.

E5-8 is definitely not my bag.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

Exactly, and it's all good honest dirty grovelling character building fun

Summit Quarry is the choice routes, Warland Quarry for a couple of highball slabs.

In reply to radddogg:

Venues with sport routes in Lancashire*:
Parbold Parbold Quarry
Cringlesport Cringlesport
Barrow Scout Cove Barrow Scout Cove
And apparently Warton Main Warton Main Quarry
I'm also fairly sure there is a short sport route or two at Warton Upper.
Though if I'm being honest if I lived close to Egerton I'd probably head to the Peak or Yorkshire rather than Silverdale, but the option is there within Lancashire.

Rather more esoterically there is Poo at Houghton, however it will be filthy (disproving the sport is always popular myth) and the quarry is only open for three weekends of the year, two of which have to be wet and the third of which it snows (in August, who'd have thought?). Also one of the routes I did at Warland is fully bolted, albeit with 60's mild steel rusted away to scrap shonk, not really very sporting at all. These are both the exceptions that prove the no bolted routes in gritstone quarries rule.

On the clean in Lancashire front then Brownstones, Anglezarke, The Wiltons are generally popular and see regular traffic so should be clean (I think they sometimes look greener than they are). Denham is generally ok, although I will concede that it can get a bit sandy after rain, but nothing a quick waft with the hand won't solve (having said that the routes at the far left of the quarry were green and 'orrible last time I was there...). Summit Quarry appears pretty clean to me, and it's not all E5+. Also some parts of Cow's Mouth are clean rock (although some is green and luminous after rain, shudder...). Errrr, I went to Cadshaw once, that seemed clean.

TBH I don't live in the UK anymore, the best person to see what's in condition in Lancashire is probably someone who lives in Lancashire. Do you know anyone like that?

* I fully accept that these crag/routes are not mego classics, and are limited in scope and grade range. I also accept that these not great crags are also possibly at least as for from your house as much better crags in the Peak and Yorkshire. However they do satisfy the brief of "sport climbing in Lancashire".

In reply to Nik Jennings:

Yup, there's more bolts in Hoghton than on the rest of quarried grit put together...!

In reply to Nik Jennings:

Cool,I might try out Barrow Scout Cove. Thanks

In reply to Nik Jennings:












I have lived in Lancashire for nearly 50 years, moving here from the North Lakes. I have climbed here, though not consistently, all of those years. Can we stop pussy footing around. Lancashire Quarries are industrial waste lands and if you want it in common language 'shit holes in the ground. There can be no dispute that there are on the 'Law of averages' some great lines, e.g. Gigantic, Toxic Bilberries and Mandarin and others. But the Lancashire Quarries are the most unprepossessing of places. Certainly not attractive enough to draw climbers who have a busy working schedule. I assume they want to climb not clean a climb with all that entails. They can garden at home!
There is no consensus of 'a no bolting policy in Lancashire Quarries'. This is a false hood created by a minority who are BMC members who attend the area meetings. There are an estimated 60000 BMC members and an estimated 750000 climbers that are active. This is a huge disparity.
The assertion that Lancashire is preserving 'the philosophy and ethos of traditional climbing' is a falsehood. The word traditional is the narcotic used by the establishment to maintain power when their base is threatened. A last resort. The true trad climbing of Lancashire, was the lads, no sexism intended here, who created home made pegs of iron and wedges of wood to hammer into weaknesses and attaché threads and tapes to cling onto to get to the to top of forgotten and uncared for quarries. Yes the whack and dangle brigade. Then along came the guys who removed the aids and climbed the lines their predecessors had created and they became the 'trad climbers'. Rather like Mensheviks and Bolsheviks. One remembered and one forgotten. If you get my drift.
Recently Bury Mountaineering Club, in a fine effort, cleaned up Deeply Vale. I had two really super sessions there. I returned this year to find it dirty and overgrown. I walked away. Do we wait another period of years until it is cleaned again. This is no just reward for a considerable effort.
The policy of clean up a Quarry, worthy though it is, is a failure. A new course of action is required. It is not one of submission to the vociferous minority.
Lancashire Climbing is NEVER going to be a national venue like Stanage. But it is a vastly under used climbing resource. My opinion is personal. Get out Drills and bolt them. Chuck the stakes and place bolt lower offs. Replace the daft rotting pegs with stainless steel bolts. Not all the 'climbers of old' had a moral philosophy under pinning how they got in every first ascent. The race was simple get the line and name it. Some were a lot cleaner than others. The modern generation if they are aware of a bolted route will climb it:because it's bolted. That is the modern trend. Eventually they will ask the question. Why? It is not revolution it is evolution.
There will never be a consensus. That I accept. The present policy of volunteers cleaning crags is a failure. It's the tail wagging the dog! So get out the the drills guys and gals and let's make a resource useful. Lancashire quarries will never be pretty but if they are climbed in they will be clean.

P S before the you put pen to paper the answer is yes I clean crags and routes. I carry a cleaning kit where ever I go. And you know what it's a pain in the arse!!!!