UKC

Typical rack

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 GridNorth 31 Aug 2015
Following on from a couple of other posts, what do you carry when you are climbing a long multi-pitch route near to your grade limit. It's not helpful to advise a novice that you only take X, Y and Z,which may amount to a very light rack, on a VS if you have several grades in hand so lets be realistic and honest. Too many threads on here are also very "grit centric" so lets try and steer away from 10 metre jamming cracks.

It's wet and I'm bored

Al
 Cheese Monkey 31 Aug 2015
For me, nearly exactly the same as on a VS assuming the same pitch lengths. Just add a few more QDs probably so it would be-
Micro wires, medium, large wires on 3 racking biners including offsets.
8 cams from small to reasonably big on 3 racking biners
QDs depending on pitch lengths including 2 slingdraws. Probably a few more QDs compared to the easier route
3 120cm slings, 240cm sling, 60 sling with lockers(5 locking biners probably overkill thinking about it)
A prussic on back of harness. Nut key with knife on bail locking biner. HMS, belay plate and biner
 Jon Stewart 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Full set of cams, including tiddlies. Lots of med/small wires and a few big chunkies. Microwires. Quickdraws/slingdraws round about 14 on big routes, and never enough screwgates and slings. I have a 'get out of trouble' biner with a prusik, spare belay device and sometimes a shunt on. I also carry my trainers.
OP GridNorth 31 Aug 2015
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Why do you feel a need for so many screwgates?

This is typically what I would carry:

Rocks 7 to 10
Rocks 1 to 6
DMM Offsets x 6 (I put the larger size of the DMM micro offsets with these)
Lightweight rocks 1 to 6
1 set of BD micro wires or DMM micro offsets
2 x Torque nuts (the smaller ones). I would only carry the larger ones on Grit and would then leave other stuff behind.
Cams BD full set up to size 3
2 x 120 cm slings (with one Edelrid Slider krab and sometimes an additional small screwgate)
1 x 240cm sling (with huge screwgate. Petzl William)
10 x 18cm QD's
4 x sling draws
DMM Pivot and BD HMS krab
Prussik , small knife and nut extractor on a throwaway emergency krab

I may also carry an additional set of micro wires on routes that could need them but then I might leave the larger nuts/cams behind.
 jon 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

> Too many threads on here are also very "grit centric" so lets try and steer away from 10 metre jamming cracks.

I don't think that'd make any difference. There was a thread recently from a guy looking for a harness with seven gear loops. Looking at his logbook it seemed that most of the time he climbed on the grit.
 Jon Stewart 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

> Why do you feel a need for so many screwgates?

Cause I get to the top and don't have any for a belay. The remaining slingdraws are rubbish for making belays.
OP GridNorth 31 Aug 2015
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I like to have one screwgate, but if I can see the krabs and there was little chance of anything catching the gates, I wouldn't be too worried if I didn't have any in a belay setup.

Al
 neilh 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

About the same as your set. Although I do not bother with knife and prussik unless I think its prudent. Tend not to carry micro nuts as rarley do a route where these are required.Nothing above friend size 2.5, unless its obvious that it could be useful.
1
 Jon Stewart 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

They're just way more roomy and suitable for clovehitching, plus no straggling other halves of slingdraws. I always carry my 'big bastard' one (Boa?) which I consider pretty essential. I've got one on which I keep mega-sling (8m or something) too, which I find pretty useful (but a pain in the arse to coil up after).
OP GridNorth 31 Aug 2015
In reply to neilh:

A few years ago a mate bollocked me when I put 13 small pieces into an E2 in the Lakes. He pointed out that the guy before me managed to get 17 pieces in. I immediately bought and now carry more small to mid size nuts

Al
 john arran 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

> I like to have one screwgate, but if I can see the krabs and there was little chance of anything catching the gates, I wouldn't be too worried if I didn't have any in a belay setup.

I completely agree. I take a screwgate for my belay device and one for tying any belay ropes I've chosen to knot back at my harness (because it's very possible it will be levered open on my belay loop). Individual belay pieces almost always only need snaplinks; if there's an obvious risk of gate opening you can double up but it's really very rare. Seems to be an increasingly common unfounded worry.
1
 CurlyStevo 31 Aug 2015
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> They're just way more roomy and suitable for clovehitching, plus no straggling other halves of slingdraws. I always carry my 'big bastard' one (Boa?) which I consider pretty essential. I've got one on which I keep mega-sling (8m or something) too, which I find pretty useful (but a pain in the arse to coil up after).

I nearly always tie back with figure of eights on the bight to my tie in loop, once you get used to it they almost never need readjusting and it saves on carrying large biners.
Post edited at 12:57
 TobyA 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

> Following on from a couple of other posts, what do you carry when you are climbing a long multi-pitch route near to your grade limit.

That sounds about what Stetind's South Pillar was for me - the we took is listed here http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.fi/2013/09/stetinds-sydpilaren-south-pill... A bit more than I would normally take, but it is 13 full length pitches.

Climbing long pitches in Pembroke on my first ever visit this summer was a revelation. I hardly placed any cams but having roughly a triple set of nuts and lots more quickdraws than my normal 10 was the way to go. I find generally in the UK, and particularly on limestone, I want fewer cams than I used to use on Nordic granite and uses hexes much more! Having said that, on plenty of grit routes having double mid sized cams can be useful - often more for routes where you place cams in breaks than straight up cracks. I keep seeming to find routes where you're not 100 % happy about one cam in a shallower break so its nice to have two clipped to different ropes but you can burn through your cams quickly that way even on pretty short routes. I did High Neb Buttress yesterday and found it quite exciting, but having managed to place IIRC two purples and two yellows not quite as worrying as if I had only taken a single set of cams!
 HeMa 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Mainly the longer multibitches, I climb are granite and usually no fixed pro. Pitches tend to be 50m or longer and routes are generally between 300 and 400 climbing meters, roughly at E1/E2.

So the rack is full set of nuts (Wallnuts) and doubles on mid sizes (prolly offsets) and in rare cases even tiples on say 4 and 5.

As for cams, it depends on what's on the menu. Generally it's pretty much doubles on smallest micros to camalot size 2, then a single size 3.

A lot of QD's (~12 to 14 or so) of which a bit less than half are 60cm ones (ie. alpine draws). A few 120's and one 180/240 sling as a cordelette. 3 off-set D lockers and a HMS with belay device. A single small locker with prusic and knife.

All the biners are full strenght.

Might add an extra locker and 120 sling if block-leading. If swappin' leads, will use the rope to tie in to the belay.
 Jon Stewart 31 Aug 2015
In reply to TobyA:

> Climbing long pitches in Pembroke on my first ever visit this summer...having roughly a triple set of nuts and lots more quickdraws than my normal 10 was the way to go.

Damn right. 3 sets of med wires and 12 or so qds/slingdraws for something at my limit. I take the whole set of cams too and find them useful (but I haven't taken any falls onto cams in Pembroke and I'm not entirely sure what would happen if I did).
OP GridNorth 31 Aug 2015
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I'm suspicious of cams in limestone especially that found in the Avon Gorge which seems to be smoother rock than that found on other crags. I placed small cam recently which looked perfect. I gave it a short, sharp tug and it felt OK but as soon as I gave it a more realistic pull, out it popped.

Al
 Offwidth 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:
Normal US granite/sandstone multipitch rack is a double set of micros (including brass offsets), a set of wallnuts, a set of offsets, a full set of cams from smallest alien to camelot 3 with a spare for every other size and extra cams or big cams for routes with warnings or if crack widths look the same for long distances. One mid sized hex for pinches bigger than the biggest nut (acts as a spare long draw and a spare for camelot 1/2). Typically 10 sling draws (a few with one crab to extend cams) and 6 thin slings of a variety of lengths at least 2 with locking crabs. Where pitches are bold but lipped I take a multi-head hook for emercency aid moves or rest possibilities. The bigger limestone stuff I've done needs more nuts and much fewer cams. In the UK the pitches are shorter so my draws get reduced and spare cams can be left behind. Each of us normally carry a light belay device on a locking crab and a spare locker, a nut key, approach shoes on a crab (with the second) and a lightweight windproof with light gloves and balaclava and frankly not taking prussics on a major route is daft.. you dont need them often but they can be lifesavers if you get stuck pick up an injury en route or need to use rescue techniques; they can protect threads where slings wont fit through, act as emergecy ab tat). On longer routes we take a water bottle on a crab and on most a camera on a locking crab. Route details on photocopies in a plastic bag with back-ups and plan b routes on the camera.
Post edited at 14:45
 planetmarshall 31 Aug 2015
In reply to john arran:

> Seems to be an increasingly common unfounded worry.

I don't know - I had no idea that anyone did this (using multiple screwgates/doubled wiregates at a belay) until I read a few posts on here. Certainly no one I climb with does it.

 henwardian 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Depends so much on the route. For single pitches at my limit, I stand at the bottom and look up, depending on what I see and what the guidebook says, I modify my rack. I might leave behind larger cam sizes if there are no wideish cracks, take extra quickdraws if it's a slab with good rests where I will stack tiny seams with microwires or Double up on cams if there is a lot of break traversing.

In as much as I have a general rack, it is probably.
Camalots: Triple 0.3, single 0.4 to 3 (sometimes an extra 0.4, 0.5 and 0.75)
Aliens: double black and blue, single green.
brassies: Double IMP 1 to IMP 5 (some are offsets but its a bit of random assortment).
Nuts: 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Peanuts: 1 to 4
Quickdraws: 12 extendable. (Perhaps more if the pitch is more than 30m)
Other: Double screwgate, belay device, cordalette.

aliens are racked on 2 krabs. Camalots are on individual colour coded krabs. All wires are on 3 krabs total.

I sometimes climb up, put in gear, climb to the ground and replenish the rack before committing.
 planetmarshall 31 Aug 2015
In reply to HeMa:

> Mainly the longer multibitches...

The what?

 summo 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:
between 0 - 6 different sizes of friends depending on the route. Classic Vdiff - 0, more technical VS+ 3 or more.
rocks 1-10, plus a few extra in the 4,5,6 range. Rarely a bunch of wires smaller than 0/00 for very specific lines.
2 or 3 hexes if route dictates, rarely carry hexes and friends, simply over-kill for most routes.
5 or 6 runners, various length
2 x 16' slings
1 shorter sling
a few screwgates, a few wire gates
pear shaped + bug
junk krab; with prussiks, knive, whistle, ropeman.
nutkey

That's it, probably little light for some, but I see no need for 10 kgs of iron work on most climbs. So many routes could be climbed with just a 1 set of wires and few extenders, better to save the time and weight. IMHO.
Post edited at 15:25
 Martin Hore 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Here's my pennyworth:

Standard rack for longish pitches at my grade (HVS/E1):

Racking krab 1: Rocks 7, 8, 9, 10
Racking krab 2: Rocks 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
Racking krab 3: Rocks 3, 4, 5, 6 + gold and blue DMM offsets (= Rock 4 and 5 approx)
Racking krab 4: Rocks 1, 2, 3, 4 + DMM brass offsets 4, 5, 6 (= Rock 1,2,3 approx.)
Racking krab 5: Hexcentric 5, 6, 7 (once on tape, now replaced with Dyneema cord)
Racking krab 6: Friends 0, 0.5, 1
Racking krab 7: Friends 1.5, 2.5
Racking krab 8: Friend 3.5
20cm QDs x 2
30cm QDs x 6
60cm slingdraws/alpine draws x 4
120cm slings with Phantom screwgate x 2
Belay plate + large screwgate
Large loose screwgate for bringing ropes back from anchor to harness.
Racking krab + 2 short prussics.

For gritstone I remove 2 slingdraws and 2 x 30cm QDs and add Friends 2 and 3 on one racker. Sometimes also replace some long QDs with shorter.
For routes that require them I add a Friend 4 or DMM Brass offsets 2 and 3.
For very long well-protected pitches I add 2 QDs

So you see I'm in the screwgate camp for belay anchors (the first two anyway - the rest go on single snaps) and I like to rack my nuts with overlaps. Until this year I had 3 sets of Rocks 3,4,5 and 2 sets of 1,2 and 6 - 9. But I replaced with DMM offsets as above. I've not found the need for larger offsets as the larger Rocks sideways do the same job for me. Never used Wallnuts - always seemed a bit fiddly.

Martin
 Steve nevers 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:
Current racks consists of:
15 QDs 15-25cm
1-10 WC rocks
1-11 DMM nuts
IMPs
Brassies
RPs
Dragons 1-3 (which i never seem to use)
Torque nuts (but only actually take up what i think i'll need)
about 8 extenders
about 8 crabs (snapgate and lockable, different sizes)
couple of tricams
Prussiks and some tat

and on one occasion, a shop dummies arm...
Post edited at 15:52
 jon 31 Aug 2015
In reply to Martin Hore:

Ooof Martin, if I carried that much, I'd have a bad back. Oh, wait a minute...
 jkarran 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Single complete set of cams from thin fingers to fat hands, mixed types
Double ish set of nuts, small brass > Rock10 size including offsets
10-14 draws of various types
120 sling & wiregate
Belay plate on HMS

jk
Post edited at 16:06
 Martin Haworth 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:
This would be my typical rack for a big multi-pitch or sea-cliff route, obviously it can vary a bit depending on rock type, route etc.
1-6 wallnuts
2-7 wallnuts
8-11 wallnuts
1-6 super-light rock and a few micros
Blue,green,yellow Aliens
Camelot's 0.3,0.5,1,2. (Possibly size 3 or even 4 for some routes)
5 short quick draws, 5 medium quick draws, 6 sling draws(I carry 12 on a bandolier and 4 on my harness)
4 slings over my shoulder probably each with a snap-gate
1 long sling on a screw-gate
2 screw- gates
Prussik
Reverso + screw-gate
Nut key

Also if I might have to walk off, I take my trainers( Innov8 212's)
IOn multi-pitch I take a light-weight wind proof as well.
Post edited at 16:38
 Wild Isle 31 Aug 2015
In reply to john arran:

> Individual belay pieces almost always only need snaplinks; if there's an obvious risk of gate opening you can double up but it's really very rare. Seems to be an increasingly common unfounded worry.

I tend to agree maybe with the caveat that fixed pro (bolts & pins) at anchors always warrant locking gates because of their inflexibility making opening a crab more plausible with unpredictable movement in the system - not sure it's more likely in practice but I find it easier to visualize than a snap link opening on a flexible cam sling.
 Martin Hore 31 Aug 2015
In reply to jon:

I think you'll find it's a bit less than quite a few of the others on this thread - just that I've listed each piece individually.

I'm booked in for my op to (hopefully) sort out my stenosis on 28 September. I'll let you know what happens.

Martin
1
 jon 31 Aug 2015
In reply to Martin Hore:

Please do. Good luck.
 ianstevens 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:
Very similar to what I'd take on a 40-50m single pitch.

1-11 Wallnuts (rack as solids and hollows)
1-6 RPs (super light, can always go in and can be used to bail/aid in extremis)
Whatever sizes the WC Superlight Offsets come in (i.e. a full set)
0.5-3.5 WC Friends (excluding 2 and 2.5 which I've lost and replaced with BD equivalents, each on a snapgate)
Yellow BD C3 (Size 2?)
10 x slingdraws
2 x 120 slings (w/snapgates)
1 x 180 sling
1 x 240 sling (if not swinging leads)
3 x screwgates (3 extra if not swinging leads)
Nutkey
Guide Plate on swanky Magnetron Gridlock
Prussic x 2 (if steep)
Skyhook and victory beer (if hard/bold)
Post edited at 17:34
 BnB 31 Aug 2015
In reply to Martin Haworth:

> This would be my typical rack for a big multi-pitch or sea-cliff route, obviously it can vary a bit depending on rock type, route etc.

> 5 short quick draws, 5 medium quick draws, 6 sling draws(I carry 12 on a bandolier and 4 on my harness)

> 4 slings over my shoulder probably each with a snap-gate

> 1 long sling on a screw-gate

> IOn multi-pitch I take a light-weight wind proof as well.

16 QDs and 5 slings!!??

For the excess thread and ironware you could take a full wardrobe en route instead
 Martin Haworth 31 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:

Thin slings with light-weight snap gates weigh bugger all, and on long pitches and especially on extremes on sea-cliffs like Gogarth, Red Walls etc they are useful for threads. All my quick-draws are light weight, and I would rather get to the top of a route with all my runners adequately extended.
I can recall on a few routes, (Wendigo, Red Wall, The Sind), having about 20 runners in and still they somehow felt runout!
 BnB 31 Aug 2015
In reply to Martin Haworth:

What do I know. Need to climb less on 15m gritstone edges and more 55m pitches
 Puppythedog 31 Aug 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Hi Al.
On bigger or multi pitch none grit like climbing I would take;
Two full sets of nuts, small wired hexes, tri-cams up to brown with two red. And an assortment of cams.
I like to have about fifteen draws with six ish of those being sling draws and the rest long ones with wide dog bones.
Also nut key, a couple of longer slings including a 240 and a couple or three screw gates.

When I was climbing in the Lower Wye I would treble up on small wires 1,2 and 3.
OP GridNorth 01 Sep 2015
In reply to puppythedog:

Hello James. I seem to have gone from being notorious for not using enough gear to having too much. Trouble is as the gear has increased my abilities have decreased. One bit of me thinks it's age but I have a nagging feeling I'm carrying too much gear but from reading these posts apparently I'm not.

Al
OP GridNorth 01 Sep 2015
In reply to ianstevens:

Did you know a "Guide plate" e.g. Reverso, BD Guide, DMM Pivot etc. can be used as a prussik device also? It's very easy to switch from abseiling to prussiking with one if you extend with a sling when abseiling by just clipping the hole directly into your belay loop.

Al
 planetmarshall 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

> I have a nagging feeling I'm carrying too much gear but from reading these posts apparently I'm not.

Somewhere there's a French guide chuckling to himself reading this, who thinks two friends and a nut are sufficient to lead the American Direct.

 Chris Sansum 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Hi Al,

The recommendation is 104 nuts and 16 hexes:

http://www.theshortspan.com/photo/cartoon3.jpg



Cheers, and catch up soon!

Chris
OP GridNorth 01 Sep 2015
In reply to Chris Sansum:

Hi Chris. Had a great day with Kirsten, thanks for getting us together. She led her first "proper" HVS, Suspension Bridge Arete. She wanted to do it and I didn't have the heart to tell her I had repeated it for the umpteenth time a couple of weeks before. Then we did Suspense, Baby Duck and Hell gates. Thought Hell Gates warranted E1. It's arguably 5b now a hold has gone and I thought it much harder than Baby Duck.

Al
 Chris Sansum 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

No worries, glad you had a good time. That is a good haul of routes for 1 day! Hell Gates never gets boring - really nice climbing.
 james.slater 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

For long multipitch near my limit (E2ish):

Large nuts - (Approx 10) all sorts from size 8-13
Medium/Small - (Approx 15) all sorts from 1-7
Micros (Approx 7) all sizes including a couple of brass offsets
Cams - A tiny totem, BD camalot sizes 0.25. 0.5, 0.75, 1, 2 and a couple of equivalent sizes in the mid range - WC Sometimes a size 3 if i know theres a big crack somewhere on the route!
12ish quickdraws of varying lengths
3 or 4 120cm slings as extenders (over shoulder)
1 240 sling
Prussiks if steep
A nut key
Large HMS and two small screwgates for belay building
Belay plate

Sometimes I add some midsize tri-cams if its on limestone!
 planetmarshall 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

250g Butter
150g dates or other dried fruit
3 pieces stem ginger, chopped
4 tablespoons golden syrup
200g brown sugar
350g oats

baking tray
oven, preheated to 150 deg C, gas 2.
OP GridNorth 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

There is a lot of similarity between these racks, which shouldn't really come as a surprise. There do however appear to be some differences with regard to screw gates and how many to carry. For me it's 3 including my belay krab, sometimes 4 to make things a little more convenient but I could get away with just 2 if I tried. I've recently replaced one screw gate with an Edelrid slider which I would thoroughly recommend.

Saw a guy last night at my local wall. He had 6 x Screwgates, perhaps as many as 8, 3 x 60cm wide nylon slings twisted on 3 of the screw gates, prussiks loops, 1 x GriGri, 1 normal belay plate and a ropeman all attached with screw gates to his harness. I should hate to think what he would take on a trad route
 tehmarks 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

The usual rack:
- 1x set Wallnuts 1-11
- 1x set offsets 4-11
- a selection of cams
- 10x quickdraws, 4x 60cm slings racked as slingdraws
- 2x 120cm sling
- Boa for belay-building
- 3x spare wiregates for belay
- Reverso with a second round-bar screwgate for guide mode
- 2x prusik on a Phantom screwgate

To which, depending on the specific route, I might add any of the following:
- 1x set Superlight Rocks (for rock that takes a lot of small nuts)
- the rest of the cams
- Torque nuts (for a longer route where I might want big gear without carrying big cams)
- Tricams 0.25-2
 jkarran 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

> There is a lot of similarity between these racks, which shouldn't really come as a surprise. There do however appear to be some differences with regard to screw gates and how many to carry.

I tend to make do with what I have to hand but since I routinely clove hitch direct to gear or tie back with fig8s for belays I haven't bothered replacing my last screwgate since I lost it a while back, I now just have the one on my plate and don't notice much/any difference. I've got spares somewhere but since I don't appear to use or miss them much I shan't be ransacking my unloved gear pile to find them.

jk
 RobOggie 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Carried on give or take every climb:
BD Stoppers 3-11
DMM Wallnuts 1-9
DMM Offsets (Full sets of Alloy and Brass)
WC Rockcentrics 3-7
BD Camalot C4s (.4, .5, .75, 1, 2)
BD Camalot X4 (.3, .5-.75 Offset)
Edelrid Mega Jul
8 Quickdraws (Varying Lengths)
Slings (120+240)
Metolius PAS (Personally love it, lives lark's footed on my belay loop)
8mm Tat and screwgate (Just in case!)
2 Screwgates

Optional - if situation requires:
BD Stoppers 1, 2, 12 & 13
DMM Wallnuts 10 & 11
WC Rockcentrics 8 & 9
BD Camalot C4s (.3, 1, 3, 4)
More Quickdraws
More slings

Some may say it's a lot of gear to carry, but it's been rare for me to struggle due to feeling weighted down and I'd rather carry too much than too little!
 alexm198 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Reading these replies and those on the other thread makes me feel somewhat minimalist in my approach...

I'd generally take:

1-6 DMM Wallnuts on wiregate
7-11 DMM Wallnuts on wiregate
0-5 DMM Dragons, individually racked on wiregates
5x60cm slingdraw
7x fixed length QDs, varying lengths
2x 120cm slings on screwgate
Reverso 4 with two screw gates (i.e. racked in guide mode)
Knife & prussik racked on screwgate, clipped to my haul loop.

In winter I'll generally replace some/all of the cams with torque nuts.

Occasionally I'll take a couple of small cams (C3s) but I find if I carry much more gear than this it starts to feel cumbersome. Would quite like a set of 7-11 offsets, though.
OP GridNorth 01 Sep 2015
In reply to alexm198:

Based in Chamonix, as you are, you can afford to be minimalist in my opinion. I go very lightweight in the Alps, probably not even a full set of nuts and I would only take possibly 4 cams but UK trad climbing is a different ball game all together. Even different areas require different racks. I was in the Lakes a few weeks ago climbing HVS and E1 and every nut placement was perfect, regular and consistent but further south where I climb in the Wye Valley/Avon things are a bit more hit and miss.

Al
 alexm198 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Indeed, the gear specified would be for multi pitch trad back in the UK.

Generally in the Alps on a straightforward route I'd take half a set of wires (usually the odd numbers) and probably ditch the biggest cam.

That in itself is an interesting point of discussion, however - I've often been torn between taking a heavier rack and being able to move together for longer without needing to stop and re-group, and taking a lighter rack and moving quicker.
OP GridNorth 01 Sep 2015
In reply to alexm198:

I think it also depends what sort of rock you climb. One set of nuts would not be enough for me on limestone as you tend to place multiple nuts of the same size, usually small to medium. Mind you I started in the days when all I had was a rope and a couple of slings with ex-WD krabs. Than god those days are over.

Al
 French Erick 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Rack may change depending on rock type and route types (more RPs on bold routes...)

1 set of wildcountry rocks 1-7
1 set of dmm wallnuts 1-7
1 set of RPs (about 8 pieces-fairly comprehensive sizes)
whatever I have but 1 of each size wire: 8,9,10
a full set of BD C4 cams from 0.3 to 3 (if I know about big cracks will take accordingly and ditch some smaller sizes)
1 BD C3 000
1 metolius small (size?)
8 x 12cm draws
depending on route either: 2x 20cm drws + 2x60sling draws or 4x60sling draws
1 reverso+ screwgate
1 screw gates with 2 prussiks
2x 120cm slings with an HMS type screwgate each
1 nutkey with a shite snapgate to abandon
1 bottle with tape on it an anothe shite snapgate to abandon
either 2x 50m or 60m depending on route.
1 helmet
1 headtorch
1 lightweight waterproof jacket (if it's hot short sleeves under it).

I probably take too many screwgates but I'm lazy- I find it faster. I will set up a belay on snapgates no problem.
Obviously, things will and do vary. I sometimes will not take a full RP set even on something hard (might add a couple to other sets).
I have stopped changing my rocks from winter to summer mode and if I climb with my rack will have 2 separate sets 1-7 + whatever is left. I do regularly climb with folks doing the small, medium, big thing...
It doesn't bother me even at my limit. If I fail, it'll never be because of that but because of my head!
I'll never take hexes in summer but nearly always in winter (rarely more than 3/4 cams then).

An interesting post... good to see what other folks do.
 Carless 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Who was it who first coined the expression "As much as is financially possible" ?
 Goucho 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

1 x MOAC original.
1 x knotted sock.

OP GridNorth 01 Sep 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Don't you mean 3 x hemp slings and a few drilled out engineering nuts.

Al
 Wayne S 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:
I often wonder if you would come up with a "standard rack" if you analized a big enough sample of what folks carry.

For me on mountain/longer limestone routes the current starting point before a little trimming is:

Oval crab 1, 1-7 wallnuts
Oval crab 2, 8-11 rocks
Oval crab 3, 12-14 rocks
Oval crab 4, metolius curve nut 1-4, super light offsets 6-10
Oval crab 5, 5 off brass micros and 2-3 small tricams (0.125, 0.5, 1)
0.2 BD X4, set of 5 totem cams, BD C4 1-3.
12 x 20cm phantom quickdraws, 4 x 60cm sling draws.
3 x skinny 120cm slings with phantom screw gates.
Belay plate with small HMS.
Nutkey
Prussic

If 45m plus on limestone I might also take 1-7 rocks in addition.

Grit would be one set of wires 1-14
Set of cams (up to camalot 4) plus some doubles around WC 1.5 -3.5.
8 quickdraws, couple of sling draws on 18-20 m ish routes.
Couple of 120cm slings with phantom screw gates.

for me short quickdraws of of little use, three screw gates is ample assuming second has one or two personal ones. I have a rope if I need to belay round anything bigger than a 120cm sling! Hexes jangle too much! Though have a place on occasion. The above is for VS and above for me, easier mountain routes would be a few less wires and loose smallest cams, consider thinning larger cams with a couple of hexes.

Wayne
 Goucho 01 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

> Don't you mean 3 x hemp slings and a few drilled out engineering nuts.

> Al

I don't even have the MOAC threaded
 rgold 02 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

My standard rack for face climbing has ten stoppers, a fistful of assorted brass trinkets, double cams from micro up to green camalot, single red, yellow, and blue camalot. Sometimes I add a black, red, and pink tricam and/or the three smallest ballnuts.

On rock types with more wide cracks, I'll double up on the red and yellow camalots, and sometimes add a size above the blue. For Yosemite granite and desert sandstone, it all depends, but more cams in the sizes mentioned and bigger cams as well are called for.

I usually carry 12 "alpine" draws, perhaps 3 or four more free carabiners and perhaps 4 over-the-shoulder slings, and another three ultralight lockers.

60 m half ropes have gotten me up and down everything.
 Puppythedog 02 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Just because I carry it does not mean I place it
I remember doing the wrong Tap with you, clipping that crap yellow peg and then just carrying on for the next 20 meters or so.
 aldo56 02 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

I genrally go for a selection from the following options:

1 racking oval with Walnuts 1-10.
1 racking oval with Alloy offset set 7-11 / 1-6 rocks.
1 racking oval with micros.
DMM 4CU with individual crabs: Sizes 0, 0.5, 1, 1.5, 2, 3.0.
Torque nut set on one crab.
2 no. short sport draws.
5 no. 18cm draws.
5 no. sling draws.
1 no. 240 sling on a wiregate.
1 no. 120 sling on a wiregate.
Reverso and 2 lockers for guide mode.
Big HMS Boa and smaller locker for belays.
Nut tool.
 summo 02 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

I'm still staggered at the number of extenders/quick draws people have. I rarely carry more than 6 or 8 at a push. Worst case if I need more then I could clip the cam or hex unextended. Perhaps it means I am not pushing myself grade wise to feel the need for more. But the weight and harness space is enough to put me off.
 Mark Haward 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

There are loads of ways of saving space for when more kit is needed. For example one quick draw can be attached to the harness gear loop and three or four quick draws attached to that quick draw. Makes for faster gear swap over too, if speed is required.
However, I agree with your much earlier observation about carrying what is needed and staying fairly light. Many people appear to carry a lot more gear than necessary but I usually assume they are fairly new to the game. With more knowledge / skill / experience I presume most people would choose to prune their rack to the requirements of the route and their skill level ( or state of hangover!).
 Postmanpat 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

> I'm still staggered at the number of extenders/quick draws people have. I rarely carry more than 6 or 8 at a push. Worst case if I need more then I could clip the cam or hex unextended. Perhaps it means I am not pushing myself grade wise to feel the need for more. But the weight and harness space is enough to put me off.

I don't get this. On a 50 metre pitch I might hope to put in gear average every 3 or 4 metres (may put in a couple of pieces for crux/ if pieces are dodgy). That makes 12 QDs assuming one doesn't use any for the belay. I reckon I carry 10 or so for a long pitch.
 Rick Graham 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

> I'm still staggered at the number of extenders/quick draws people have. I rarely carry more than 6 or 8 at a push. Worst case if I need more then I could clip the cam or hex unextended. Perhaps it means I am not pushing myself grade wise to feel the need for more. But the weight and harness space is enough to put me off.

Quickdrawers and 120 slings are very light nowadays.

I usually carry 6 - 18 drawers depending on the pitch length and route style ( always even number never 13 ).

120 slings carried double over the shoulder, little chance of a tangle or throttling, and so quick for a small spike runner.

Only carry cams if on grit, granite or know/ obvious that they are needed.
Found in Yosemite, say , that a single set of cams and single set of hexes worked very well, would only carry multiple cams on Indian Creek.
 Goucho 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Quickdrawers and 120 slings are very light nowadays.

> I usually carry 6 - 18 drawers depending on the pitch length and route style ( always even number never 13 ).

> 120 slings carried double over the shoulder, little chance of a tangle or throttling, and so quick for a small spike runner.

> Only carry cams if on grit, granite or know/ obvious that they are needed.

> Found in Yosemite, say , that a single set of cams and single set of hexes worked very well, would only carry multiple cams on Indian Creek.

I've seen folk with more gear on their rack on Central Trinity at Stanage, than we had on Salathe Wall
1
 jkarran 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

I take more like 20 extenders for a long pitch and still usually run out toward the top. Spaced gear and lots of rope out make for big falls and big falls mean you're moving very fast if and when you hit something. I could probably count on one hand the number of really big trad pitches I've done over the years that I'd be happy falling a long way down.

jk
 Rick Graham 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Goucho:

GOM alert.

Only had one friend 2 and 3 on the Salathe ( had a full set, 1 2 and 3 ! by the time I had finished the Nose.)

Think we had a double set of Hexes and Stoppers on both, seemed quite adequate at the time, except perhaps on the Hollow Flake.
 planetmarshall 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Goucho:
> I've seen folk with more gear on their rack on Central Trinity at Stanage, than we had on Salathe Wall

No doubt - but maybe those leading Central Trinity didn't feel the need to trim down the rack as the pitch is only 16m long. Why not carry more than you're likely to need, it's not like it's going to be a massive handicap.

This whole thread has all gone a bit "I'm better than you because I carry less gear". As for people carrying 6-8 quickdraws on a 40m pitch, that's just daft. If you don't carry enough to keep you off the ground, then why bother at all? Andy K sums it up here - http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/cragmanship/view/black_dog_insurance
Post edited at 11:37
 Postmanpat 02 Sep 2015
In reply to jkarran:

> I take more like 20 extenders for a long pitch and still usually run out toward the top.
> jk

Yup, thinking about it I reckon I take 12-13 for a long pitch + some slings. Can't imagine how people only take 6-8!?
 Rick Graham 02 Sep 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:


> This whole thread has all gone a bit "I'm better than you because I carry less gear".

My reading is " I carry just the right amount of gear with a bit in reserve"

6-8 qd's is a bit thin for this country on long pitches but might be ideal for a route in the Alps.
 Goucho 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> GOM alert.

> Only had one friend 2 and 3 on the Salathe ( had a full set, 1 2 and 3 ! by the time I had finished the Nose.)

> Think we had a double set of Hexes and Stoppers on both, seemed quite adequate at the time, except perhaps on the Hollow Flake.

Think we had full set of 1,2, & 3, but don't recall using them much. As you say, a full set of Hexes and Stoppers were fine.

 Postmanpat 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Goucho:
> I've seen folk with more gear on their rack on Central Trinity at Stanage, than we had on Salathe Wall

I'm in the process of posting a pic of two people starting Tennis Shoe, both carrying a rack fit for El Cap!!

I thought I carried too much gear until I saw them!!
Post edited at 11:53
 Goucho 02 Sep 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

> No doubt - but maybe those leading Central Trinity didn't feel the need to trim down the rack as the pitch is only 16m long. Why not carry more than you're likely to need, it's not like it's going to be a massive handicap.

Carrying a full rack to place approx 3 runners plus the belay just seems a bit daft to me - especially as those placements are bog standard.

> This whole thread has all gone a bit "I'm better than you because I carry less gear". As for people carrying 6-8 quickdraws on a 40m pitch, that's just daft. If you don't carry enough to keep you off the ground, then why bother at all? Andy K sums it up here - http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/cragmanship/view/black_dog_insurance

Not at all, you carry as much gear as you are comfortable with, people are just commenting on how much gear they take - as per the question in the OP.

 summo 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

> I don't get this. On a 50 metre pitch I might hope to put in gear average every 3 or 4 metres ....That makes 12 QDs assuming one doesn't use any for the belay. I reckon I carry 10 or so for a long pitch....

I'd put one in almost instantly to protect the stance on multi pitch, if it's thin and the stance is bomb proof I'd clip the highest anchor in the stance. So stance is always safe and 2nd always has upwards pull. Or from the ground up, no point in putting a runner in for the first few metres, as the minute you do a move above it, you'd still deck anyway and it's all but redundant, better to get to up a few metres first.

Then I'm off up. Easy or straight forward ground with potential features ahead, I'd simply go until I get to them, anything from 5-10 metres, if I pass an obvious one where the brain automatically tells me what size wire, then I'd use it, only 10 secs spent, so never a bad thing.

Then as I head up, steady spacing, only the first few are the most critical to protect the stance and reduce fall /impact factors. At a guess 50m runners could be 1-3m, 5-10m, 10-15m etc ... then what ever the route dictates full rope length it could go to 8, if I'm happy then I might still throw in a few precautionary ones as I go, to prevent excess and unnecessary run outs, rather than just romp up as you never know the when unexpected might happen (tremadog abseilers etc..). But I will not hang around chasing gear slots to lace a route, if I'm not feeling stretched.

My theory is carry just enough to get you up the route, with a few bits reserve. Less weight on harness, easier to climb with, less risk of feeling you need to lace the route in the first place. The only time this really changes is on traverses, where you are putting in gear to protect yourself and the second, so the spacing needs to be a little more thoughtful, ie. before and immediately after a crux.

Not suggesting yourself; but so many people carry so much un-needed gear, if you are on a route that dictates carrying lots of big wires - size 7 plus, chances are you don't require upteen different small or micro wires etc.. the opposite can also apply, unless specific knowledge dictates. How many extenders do you really need on a straight up single pitch route in the peaks, how many slings do you really need and still be able to solve all problems etc... On one course we decided the collection known of slings should be known as 'an assessment of slings'.



 planetmarshall 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Goucho:
> Carrying a full rack to place approx 3 runners plus the belay just seems a bit daft to me - especially as those placements are bog standard.

I suspect to an E6 leader it probably does seem a bit daft. Less so to someone whose limit is VS.
Post edited at 12:02
 Goucho 02 Sep 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

> I suspect to an E6 leader it probably does seem a bit daft. Less so to someone who's limit is VS.

When I was only climbing VS, I took no more than half a dozen bits of gear, and placed 3 runners on it, which was how everyone else I knew or saw, did it.
 summo 02 Sep 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:
> This whole thread has all gone a bit "I'm better than you because I carry less gear". As for people carrying 6-8 quickdraws on a 40m pitch, that's just daft.

nope, I would say it's down to experience of different grades, different rock types, different regions, different crags etc.. they bring efficiency. You start to simply know that those hexes or little wires are worthless, but looking at that crack I'd expect some bomber wires, the description says the crux is protected by a thread and so on.. you start to build up a picture of what you will need, rather than pack the kitchen sink. It's not arrogance, simply efficiency. It means you climb smoother, more balance and much quicker. Change overs, re-racking and even the walk in are quicker too.

I'm not suggesting people scare themselves, a bit of gear when things feel against you is massive confidence builder and can the change the mood of the route instantly.

6-8 on 40m route, imagine I put in gear at 5,8,15,23,34, stance... would I deck no, could I add in 1 or 2 extra and be really safe, yes. That's still only 7 runners in 40m. If you are pushing the grade etc.. you might put in more, but if you feel the need to put in 12 plus runners, you can't really be enjoying the moment that much?
Post edited at 12:09
 summo 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> When I was only climbing VS, I took no more than half a dozen bits of gear, and placed 3 runners on it, which was how everyone else I knew or saw, did it.

When I started climbing as a kid, me and my mate had very little gear. Building a rack almost a wire at a time. Often we'd climb and could only put gear in when we got to a crack that matched the size of the gear we owned, otherwise we had to crack on upwards until we found something. It might explain my concept a little.
 Goucho 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

Well said

Climbing is about movement, and the more efficient you are with gear placements, the less the flow is interupted, and the more enjoyment you get.

Keep yourself safe, but don't stifle the act of actual climbing.
 planetmarshall 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> When I was only climbing VS, I took no more than half a dozen bits of gear, and placed 3 runners on it, which was how everyone else I knew or saw, did it.

Good for you.

When I climbed it (My 113th climb according to the logbook), I carried what I would consider a full gritstone rack, which would be a full set of wires, 3-4 cams and 8 quickdraws. Why? Because I hadn't climbed it before, and hadn't accumulated the experience to just look at the route and determine that I'm only going to need 3 pieces of gear, and know exactly what 3 pieces they would be. I also had no idea what was at the top, and whether I'd be able to sling a boulder or would need more pieces for the belay, or what pieces they would be.
 Rick Graham 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:


> I'm not suggesting people scare themselves, a bit of gear when things feel against you is massive confidence builder and can the change the mood of the route instantly.

> if you feel the need to put in 12 plus runners, you can't really be enjoying the moment that much?

I take it as as a challenge when the guidebook says poorly protected, unleashing the full rack into such a pitch is really enjoyable

 planetmarshall 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

> If you are pushing the grade etc.. you might put in more, but if you feel the need to put in 12 plus runners, you can't really be enjoying the moment that much?

Possibly, but you're not going to be able to place 12 runners if you're only carrying 6.

 Goucho 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

> When I started climbing as a kid, me and my mate had very little gear. Building a rack almost a wire at a time. Often we'd climb and could only put gear in when we got to a crack that matched the size of the gear we owned, otherwise we had to crack on upwards until we found something. It might explain my concept a little.

Likewise.

It taught you to place gear appropriately, forced you to think, and be very creative at times, and made you a much more controlled and precise climber, which also means safer.

I started using cams (Friends) about a year or so after they came out - didn't trust them at first - but I honestly can't think of many routes routes I've done, that I woudn't have been more than happy to do without - in fact give me a good Stopper placement any day

And where did all this putting a quick draw on every runner come from???
 summo 02 Sep 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:
> Possibly, but you're not going to be able to place 12 runners if you're only carrying 6.

of course not, never said you could. But if things do go t1ts up or go off route onto much tougher ground, you can use cams/hexes un-extended, slings as runners, then use your rope to rig at the belay stance. Problems are solvable, without carrying the world.
Post edited at 12:21
 summo 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Goucho:


> And where did all this putting a quick draw on every runner come from???

probably magazine adverts from manufacturers, convincing people rope drag with be huge, cams will always walk in etc.. rather than teach people to look at the line of the route, the direction of pull of the gear and the line you want the rope to follow.
1
 Goucho 02 Sep 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Good for you.

> When I climbed it (My 113th climb according to the logbook), I carried what I would consider a full gritstone rack, which would be a full set of wires, 3-4 cams and 8 quickdraws. Why? Because I hadn't climbed it before, and hadn't accumulated the experience to just look at the route and determine that I'm only going to need 3 pieces of gear, and know exactly what 3 pieces they would be. I also had no idea what was at the top, and whether I'd be able to sling a boulder or would need more pieces for the belay, or what pieces they would be.

Well the top of Stanage is the last place you want to be with insufficient gear, anything could happen?
1
 Goucho 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> I take it as as a challenge when the guidebook says poorly protected, unleashing the full rack into such a pitch is really enjoyable

Go on then, how much gear did you manage to get in Slanting Slab
OP GridNorth 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Goucho:
> And where did all this putting a quick draw on every runner come from???

It came from carrying mostly nuts on wires rather than cord. The only pro I have on cord are a couple of Torque nuts and a couple of tri-cams and I usually extend cams.

Al
Post edited at 12:27
 planetmarshall 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> Well the top of Stanage is the last place you want to be with insufficient gear, anything could happen?

Assuming I made it to the top, having pushed myself to the limit of endurance by carrying 4 pieces instead of 3.
 Seymore Butt 02 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Seems to me that most folk on here are overloaded with gear. It would be interesting to know what some of the posters 'total weight' of gear (plus harness) they are setting off on a route is.
My rack for multi pitch routes weighs approx. 3.2Kg (bathroom scales).

Al
 Goucho 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Seymore Butt:

> Seems to me that most folk on here are overloaded with gear. It would be interesting to know what some of the posters 'total weight' of gear (plus harness) they are setting off on a route is.

> My rack for multi pitch routes weighs approx. 3.2Kg (bathroom scales).

> Al

I once saw someone on FBD, they were on the moves just round the lip, and he shouted down to his second "It's no use, I haven't any strength left, my arms have gone, take me" before dropping off.

That wasn't what was funny, it was his rack, there must of been 30+ bits of gear on it, including a Hex which would have been a tight fit in Right Eliminate
 Postmanpat 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

> nope, I would say it's down to experience of different grades, different rock types, different regions, different crags etc.. they bring efficiency. You start to simply know that those hexes or little wires are worthless, but looking at that crack I'd expect some bomber wires, the description says the crux is protected by a thread and so on.. you start to build up a picture of what you will need, rather than pack the kitchen sink.
>

All true, but supposing the "crack" is out of sight 250 feet above you?
 summo 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:
> All true, but supposing the "crack" is out of sight 250 feet above you?

route description and rock type would 'normally' give you sufficient clues. (or even route name).
Post edited at 12:42
1
 Postmanpat 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:
> route description and rock type would 'normally' give you sufficient clues. (or even route name).

Well, I admit that recently I've been carrying too much gear and am cutting back.But it's not unusual to find that a crack you think will take large of gear actually doesn't and the best bits are in a tiny crack you couldn't see from below, or visa versa.

I think you simply have a greater tolerance for the prospect of longer falls. If I'm on something towards the top of my range I wouldn't be happy with the consistent prospect of a 10 metre fall.
Post edited at 12:53
 Rick Graham 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> Go on then, how much gear did you manage to get in Slanting Slab

Can't rememberer much about it, must have got a lot.

Do you mean Bloody Slab?
 irish paul 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

6-8 on 40m route, imagine I put in gear at 5,8,15,23,34, stance... would I deck no, could I add in 1 or 2 extra and be really safe, yes.....unless piece 2 ripped, or piece 3 or even piece 4.

Personally, I usually work off the assumption that I have enough gear to allow some redundancy and would/do happily carry 15+ draws on a route (35+m of Pembroke limestone). Means I can concentrate on the climbing with the added bonus of working on my stamina, win win really.
 jkarran 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

> 6-8 on 40m route, imagine I put in gear at 5,8,15,23,34, stance... would I deck no, could I add in 1 or 2 extra and be really safe, yes. That's still only 7 runners in 40m. If you are pushing the grade etc.. you might put in more, but if you feel the need to put in 12 plus runners, you can't really be enjoying the moment that much?

You could quite easily deck and would certainly come very close on stretch even if the rope is already running straight from those runner positions. Fallen most of the height of a long sport route slipping at the chains above a pretty mild run-out my basic rule is now to assume I'll go at least 3x the distance to the last runner and then I'd still like a back-up piece having had the odd one unclip itself over the years.

I could easily put 10-12 runners in a 20m route let alone a 40m line and still be having a great time climbing it, in fact having a much better time than I would be worrying that the slightest little mishap or miscalculation with my spaced gear and stretchy rope could kill me. I climb for fun, not to scare myself.

jk
 HeMa 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

> route description and rock type would 'normally' give you sufficient clues. (or even route name).

I would suggest trying Stetind North-face route in Norway...

I'm sure the topo, route name and description are enough...
 Goucho 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

No, you've got to do the runout on Bloody Slab, it's what gives it it's character

I just remember on Slanting thinking there should be more gear than there was, but maybe I didn't have the skill or cunning.
OP GridNorth 02 Sep 2015
In reply to Goucho:

I did them both in about 1970. I remember Slanting being disappointingly easy after the roof whereas Bloody was good value all the way.

Al
 Goucho 02 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

> I did them both in about 1970. I remember Slanting being disappointingly easy after the roof whereas Bloody was good value all the way.

> Al

It was the long hot summer of 76' for me, and whilst I loved Bloody, I found Slanting a bit spooky - probably those creaking old pegs in the roof at the start, or maybe it was because it was the 6th route of the day and starting to get dark
 summo 02 Sep 2015
In reply to HeMa:

> I would suggest trying Stetind North-face route in Norway...

I did make a few presumptions (uk etc. ), but for your example it would depend on how happy you are at that grade, rock type etc.. you still don't perhaps need to carry the world, but may have to factor in some aid pitches depending on your route choice.
 HeMa 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

> I did make a few presumptions (uk etc. ), but for your example it would depend on how happy you are at that grade, rock type etc.. you still don't perhaps need to carry the world, but may have to factor in some aid pitches depending on your route choice.

I suggest you try it... its only norvegian 6 or 6+, so E2'ish...

Should be noted though, that it hasn't been repeated yet and perhaps the topo, description and pretty much everything about it are a bit hazy. But I'm sure it's all fine with triple set of nuts and 3 QDs.
 summo 02 Sep 2015
In reply to jkarran:

> You could quite easily deck and would certainly come very close on stretch even if the rope is already running straight from those runner positions.

never close to the deck, I did just pick those number roughly, but with attentive belaying fall factor would never be over 1, but it's also about reading the route, assessing risk placing them at the appropriate points etc.. if I were to lace a route to the point where I may only fall 2 or 3m I would find it supremely tedious, time consuming and heavy.. I'd prefer to have a few kilos less hanging off my hips, but it's a personal choice. I climb to climb, not to spend time putting gearing in. I will always put gear in at key moments of higher risk, crux moves, but it if it's steady ground and you anticipate from the description no surprises I won't over gear.


 Martin Haworth 02 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Bearing in mind the topic is about a rack for "long multi-pitch" and "near your limit" not about a 15m grit route(where 6 or 8 extenders would be fine, I think anyone suggesting they only take 6 to 8 quick draws is either foolhardy, stupid or trolling(or possibly all three). Also I think the topic assumes we are talking modern times not prehistoric times when gear was heavier and climbers were harder.
Depending on the route, location and grade, I will have between 14 and 20 assorted quick draws/sling draws(14,15,16,18 or 20,never a prime number!) occasionally when I've had an epic ascent even this isn't enough and near the top of a route I use what ever is available to extend gear, such as my prussic, or even cams with built in slings strung together.
Modern slings, quick draws, snap gates are really very light-weight, as are modern skinny half ropes, helmets etc. If the rack feels too heavy then the big cams should be the first thing to consider.
 summo 02 Sep 2015
In reply to HeMa:

> I suggest you try it... its only norvegian 6 or 6+, so E2'ish...
> Should be noted though, that it hasn't been repeated yet and perhaps the topo, description and pretty much everything about it are a bit hazy. But I'm sure it's all fine with triple set of nuts and 3 QDs.

I did the south pillar a few years ago, but I'd imagine 6+ with aid pitches for the newer North face route, might require 4 QDs and a big set of balls!

 jkarran 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

> never close to the deck

If you think those runner positions are safe you're delusional. Even with a decent belayer you always go *much* further than the simplistic 2x run-out formula might suggest.

jk
OP GridNorth 02 Sep 2015
In reply to jkarran:

Absolutely.

Al
 HeMa 02 Sep 2015
In reply to jkarran:
> Even with a decent belayer you always go *much* further than the simplistic 2x run-out formula might suggest.

ding ding... 2.2, provided there is no slack at all and you're climbing with a thick single rope.

add normal slack (~1m), plus runout times two... and then multiply with something like 1.2 to 1.5 depending on how much your ropes strech (1.5 thin halfrope, 1.2 thick single).

And that's with decent/fantastic belayer. Normal multipitch conditions might increase the amount of slack quite a bit.
Post edited at 14:30
 summo 02 Sep 2015
In reply to HeMa:

Ok, taking your example further for Norway. Guidebook recommends, 60m rope, it's mainly 50m pitches, ONLY 10 extenders, not 12 or even 16 as some people carry.

No not delusional. I wonder does people risk/weight management thought process vary from where they first climbed.

Ie. Indoors or sport, always a bolt in reach pretty much as your feet pass the last one indoors etc.. or those people who moved into trad from walking and scrambling...
OP GridNorth 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:
10 extenders in 50 metres sounds a bit sparse to me unless the climbing is very easy with just one or two hard bits. I wouldn't be comfortable taking a possible 20 metre + fall (I have done by the way) and I'm from a generation where all I started with was a single nylon rope a couple of slings and 2 or 3 Ex-WD steel krabs. You don't get any points for dying or maiming yourself. If the gear is there use it and be thankful I say.

Al
Post edited at 14:51
 jkarran 02 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

> No not delusional. I wonder does people risk/weight management thought process vary from where they first climbed.

Maybe. I started out trad climbing. My approach to risk and how much gear I place is based on my experience in both senses of the word: the experience I've gained from a few thousand routes, some mistakes and some near misses and the experience I'm having there and then when deciding to put some kit in, back it up or press on a bit.

I doubt my rack weighs half a kilo more than yours assuming our kit is of similar vintage. In fact looking at what you claim to carry the main difference is a few nuts and quickdraws (+ for me) and the extra krabs and emergency kit (+ for you).

jk
 Trangia 02 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Glad to read that the majority carry crabs (or krabs) rather than binners.

This is UKC not USAC
 Howard J 03 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

In my experience it is unusual for descriptions of low-grade climbs to say much about gear. They might occasionally mention a thread runner or a nut belay but don't usually indicate what size.

it is not easy to determine what gear will be needed from the ground even when the whole route is visible. I've have found large gritstone cracks, which from the ground would appear to favour big gear, where the best placements turned out to be in small cracks to the side.

if you're climbing comfortably within your limit you can afford to risk cutting back on gear, but closer to your limit you want to have a full rack available. I tend to carry the same rack regardless of the climb, in the knowledge that I probably won't use half of it, but I don't which half.
OP GridNorth 03 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

6-8 runners in 40 metres. are you sure you are not confusing metres with feet?

Al
 summo 03 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

> 6-8 runners in 40 metres. are you sure you are not confusing metres with feet?

6-8 runners in 12m-ish.... I'd be building a ladder not climbing then.

 Postmanpat 03 Sep 2015
1
 summo 03 Sep 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

> Maybe that's what these guys were planning

perhaps they thought you left the gear in and brought enough for the whole route. Looks like the slabs to me.

I did do a route in the alps once with a novice, that was only part bolted and my second only took the extender off my runners as they thought the wires and friends were insitu like the bolts. Poor briefing on my part. I had to nip back down the pitch and recover the gear. (I don't carry much after all and need every piece!)


 Postmanpat 03 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

> perhaps they thought you left the gear in and brought enough for the whole route. Looks like the slabs to me.

>
It's P1 of Tennis Shoe. I think the gear is a bit sparse so maybe they thought that if they took enough something must fit! And if the leader didn't have the right thing he could call on the second to send up some more !
 Goucho 03 Sep 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

Maybe they were trying to make the route more challenging, or (following on from that other thread) maybe they were just trying to invent a new grade such as Very Heavy Diff.
 planetmarshall 03 Sep 2015
In reply to John Stainforth:
Or maybe they're just novices and haven't accumulated the experience of what to take up a route, and should be cut some slack (so to speak)?

Once upon a time you had to at least post something stupid yourself in order to invite UKC mockery. Nice to know that people are now willing to do it on your behalf.
Post edited at 13:04
 Postmanpat 03 Sep 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Or maybe they're just novices and haven't accumulated the experience of what to take up a route, and should be cut some slack (so to speak)?

> Once upon a time you had to at least post something stupid yourself in order to invite UKC mockery. Nice to know that people are now willing to do it on your behalf.

Oh stop being so po faced. They are completely anonymous men in black. It's a victimless "crime".
 planetmarshall 03 Sep 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

Call me po faced if you like, at least I'm here to defend myself. Personally I find posting a picture of a couple of climbers and inviting everyone else to have a good laugh at their expense is a bit childish. Just how old are you?
 Postmanpat 03 Sep 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Call me po faced if you like,
>

I have because you are. I laugh at myself and my mates when we carry too much gear. It's deeply childish, that's part of the joke.
Like I said, nobody will know who these two are except themselves and if they aren't as po faced as you they'll see the funny side.
Now, smile and be happy xx

 andrewmc 04 Sep 2015
In reply to summo:

> 6-8 on 40m route, imagine I put in gear at 5,8,15,23,34, stance... would I deck no, could I add in 1 or 2 extra and be really safe, yes. That's still only 7 runners in 40m. If you are pushing the grade etc.. you might put in more, but if you feel the need to put in 12 plus runners, you can't really be enjoying the moment that much?

Question 1: How often do you fall off and test your spacings? Because if you never fall off, you have no experience. And so you don't know (as already stated by other people, your spacings are NOT safe from ground fall, or ledge fall/smacking into the rock etc...

Question 2: How much do you weigh? Having recently lost more weight than my entire trad rack weighs, I suspect most climbers (particularly the stereotypical trad climber) could do with worrying less about shaving hundreds of grams off their rack and more about shaving kilograms off their waistline. No point worrying about carrying half a kilo of hexes up a route if you are also carrying 10kg of beer belly after all... :P
 HeMa 04 Sep 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:

> No point worrying about carrying half a kilo of hexes up a route if you are also carrying 10kg of beer belly after all... :P

But the 10kg beer belly can be highly valuable piece of protection. It can make numerous wide chimneys safe... and also when climbing nasty off-widths with a slabby side or aretes, you can easily lift the belly on the slab and have a no-hands rest...

 andrewmc 04 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:
> Following on from a couple of other posts, what do you carry when you are climbing a long multi-pitch route near to your grade limit.

Everything! that's why I bought it, after all... if I don't have to lug it too far, then why not bring it - if I get tired lugging a few kilograms up a few hundred metres at most then I should probably do some exercise rather than worrying about shaving grams...

If anything it is long single pitch routes where I am most likely to bring all the gear.

Four nut crabs (DMM oval snapgates):
1) 1-6 Wallnuts x 2
2) 7-11 Wallnuts
3) 1-5 Peenuts, 1-5 IMPs, 0.75 and 0.5 micro wallnuts
4) 0-6 Brass offsets, 7-11 alloy offsets
Torque nuts 1-4 with crabs (to appease the gods of trad)
DMM Dragons 1-6 with crabs (to appease the gods of oh-god-I-need-some-gear)
12 quickdraws (phantoms; 5x18cm, 7x25cm)
5 slingdraws (8mm 60cm, spectre 2 crabs)
2 x 120cm 8mm slings on Phantom snapgates
2 x 240cm slings (one 8mm, one currently 11mm) slings on Phantom screwgates
1 x 400cm slings (8mm) on Phantom screwgate
Boa screwgate, 2 (?) spare Phantom screwgates
MegaJul + screwgate
Rope knife, 2 x prussiks
Pulley/tibloc/oval if I think I might end up hauling my partner (never happened yet)...
60cm sling + twistlock screwgate (multipitch/bolted anchors etc)

The only gear I'd usually leave behind for hard single pitch (i.e. probably not leading all the pitches) is the 400cm sling, possibly one of the 240cm slings, and the cowstail.

Also I will usually have a tiny backpack with my shoes/guidebook/phone etc unless I am really pushing my grade on something single pitch.
Post edited at 15:29
OP GridNorth 04 Sep 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Everything on every climb? I trim the rack to suit the climb, the crag and the pitch. I can think of several climbs where I haven't placed anything above a rock 5. The only time I carry more or less everything is multi-pitch when I don't know whats coming. I still manage to get it on 4 gear loops but I prefer a bandolier for big cams. I also like a small back pack rather than having shoes dangling from my harness. I have a Lowe Alpine Houdini/Illusionist what do you use?

I see that you are one of the "lots of screw gates brigade" I carry 3 at most although for convenience I might stick an extra one in now and again.
Al
Post edited at 15:52
 summo 04 Sep 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:

1. How often fall etc... Very very very rare. I've climbed since the mid eighties as a kid, in the mid nineties when registering/applyingon qualification scheme I had a few thousand routes, now, I have no idea how, many. So I have a pretty good sense of what grade I can climb, on different rock types according to how well I'm going generally or my mood. So I can push myself pretty close to my limit and very rarely get surprised and have to pull out all the stops. Also tend to space my less evenly than stated, focusing more so on cruxes, risk management if you like.

2. Me 178: 85kg, so not light, but I'm athletic built you might say, I have what you would call good 200/400m genetics. But I prefer longer races and orienteering distance wise. Usually manage 30-40 miles a week, I'd say marathon fit, but do have longer desires. So in answer, I'm not carrying much excess and dropping a few kilos off harness or rucksack weight is noticeable.

A point not covered is the poor second who must have to remove these 16 runners people may place. A patient soul indeed.
 Hat Dude 04 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

There's a lot to be said for keeping your gear on your harness; I speak from bitter experience.

Last route of the day I followed Great Slab on Froggatt, I didn't want to cart all the gear on my harness up it so took it all off, clipped it on a sling which I left at the bottom; we walked off back to our sacks which weren't at the same place, chatting away we packed up and headed home. It was only the next day when I unpacked my sack that I realised I'd left about half of my rack at the crag; never got any of it back!

Some time later, I was belaying a mate on Cave Arete, he couldn't do it and asked me if I wanted to lead it; he lowered off and pulled the ropes down leaving a couple of cams in the break at the crux. I clipped these and climbed on, only to realise at the next placement that I had diddly squat on my harness.

Since then I've always carried a complete duplicate set of everything on all routes
 andrewmc 05 Sep 2015
In reply to GridNorth:
> Everything on every climb?

Just on routes close to my limit (as in the original post). I tend to bring most things for cragging but cut down massively for easy mountain stuff with a longer walk-in.

> I also like a small back pack rather than having shoes dangling from my harness. I have a Lowe Alpine Houdini/Illusionist what do you use?

Just a cheap Decathlon thing that isn't very big but folds up into an apple-sized ball so it doesn't take up too much space in my rucksack. Handy for shorter multipitches or sea cliffs with abseil access where you want to bring the guide etc. The best feature is that it is only big enough for your own shoes, jacket, guidebook and FA kit (it is really not very big) so when your partner asks if you could carry their shoes/water/jacket you can politely refuse... :P

> I see that you are one of the "lots of screw gates brigade" I carry 3 at most although for convenience I might stick an extra one in now and again.

I still manage to run out fairly often... albeit usually when climbing on a reduced rack, leading all pitches, or otherwise generally overcomplicating things (I also use guide mode a lot so you are already up to three just anchoring and belaying). And its not like Phantom screwgates really weigh that much anyway...
Post edited at 13:38
OP GridNorth 05 Sep 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:

If I am climbing with an experienced partner I would expect them to carry their own screw gate and a couple of slings and in some cases perhaps one or two nuts in case I have used up some of my "stock" on the belay.

Al

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...