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Anyone know how the lass is getting on who was airlifted out of St Govans on Monday afternoon?
In reply to soames bach:
I think it was chapel head but don't know what happened or hows she's doing.was wondering myself....
I think it was chapel head but don't know what happened or hows she's doing.was wondering myself....
In reply to soames bach:
Is it really any of your business? I do find it slightly distasteful when I see threads such as this apparently after some gossip. If you have a vested interest in the accident then fine, but that needs to come across in your post otherwise it just sounds like your being nosey.
this is nothing personal to the OP, your not the first and im sure you wont be the last to post such threads.
Is it really any of your business? I do find it slightly distasteful when I see threads such as this apparently after some gossip. If you have a vested interest in the accident then fine, but that needs to come across in your post otherwise it just sounds like your being nosey.
this is nothing personal to the OP, your not the first and im sure you wont be the last to post such threads.
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In reply to Webster:
It's not nosey to wonder how someone's doing especially if you've been involved in or witness to the accident and its aftermath, it's simple human nature to wonder, to feel concern.
jk
It's not nosey to wonder how someone's doing especially if you've been involved in or witness to the accident and its aftermath, it's simple human nature to wonder, to feel concern.
jk
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In reply to jkarran:
It was at chapel head, myself and a few friends witnessed the accident and helped the emergency services before she was whisked away by sea king. The only news I have heard so far is that lots of bits hurt whenever she moves which is probably a good sign, everyone who was at the scene of the accident and helped with the rescue, except for the former lifeguard who kindly helped out, is being kept in the loop by her husband. I would imagine that they will want their privacy while she recovers and don't feel it is appropriate to provide any further details myself.
This is probably not said enough around here but all of the emergency services who turned up were fantastic including the Paramedics, the coastguard, the air ambulance and the RAF SAR team.
Ultravixens is now permanently banned from any ticklist which I come up with.
It was at chapel head, myself and a few friends witnessed the accident and helped the emergency services before she was whisked away by sea king. The only news I have heard so far is that lots of bits hurt whenever she moves which is probably a good sign, everyone who was at the scene of the accident and helped with the rescue, except for the former lifeguard who kindly helped out, is being kept in the loop by her husband. I would imagine that they will want their privacy while she recovers and don't feel it is appropriate to provide any further details myself.
This is probably not said enough around here but all of the emergency services who turned up were fantastic including the Paramedics, the coastguard, the air ambulance and the RAF SAR team.
Ultravixens is now permanently banned from any ticklist which I come up with.
Post edited at 22:56
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In reply to soames bach:
Personality I would welcome the US style accident reports here on UKC. As a relative newbie I have picked up a lot of safety tips and good practices reading about others accidents.
http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-accident-reports
I read these and immediately went and bought a helmet. My partner and I religiously check knots and we always tie the rope ends together when rapping. These are just a few things I've changed as a result of reading the reports.
Personality I would welcome the US style accident reports here on UKC. As a relative newbie I have picked up a lot of safety tips and good practices reading about others accidents.
http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-accident-reports
I read these and immediately went and bought a helmet. My partner and I religiously check knots and we always tie the rope ends together when rapping. These are just a few things I've changed as a result of reading the reports.
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In reply to radddogg:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=37
You might find this quite useful as well.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=37
You might find this quite useful as well.
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In reply to radddogg:
There's a case for more analysis of "what went wrong" in UK climbing accidents in the hope of avoiding similar accidents in future. On the other hand, that sort of thing really needs to be done rigorously and by people with access to as much information about what actually happened as possible - when it starts happening informally on here it tends to descend into uninformed speculation and finger pointing, which benefits nobody. In the immediate aftermath it's probably best for most of us to stick to expressing sympathy or staying clear.
There's a case for more analysis of "what went wrong" in UK climbing accidents in the hope of avoiding similar accidents in future. On the other hand, that sort of thing really needs to be done rigorously and by people with access to as much information about what actually happened as possible - when it starts happening informally on here it tends to descend into uninformed speculation and finger pointing, which benefits nobody. In the immediate aftermath it's probably best for most of us to stick to expressing sympathy or staying clear.
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In reply to Ramblin dave:
Instead what the UK climbing scene has is a culture of silence. Pity as uninformed speculation can lead to useful discussion and potentially issues discussed that some might not otherwise have been aware of.
Instead we will know nothing and to all intents and purposes no accident occurred.
If I ever have an accident climbing I would hope it is discussed and analysed as much as possible. If that be in a public forum, so what. I find the approach to climbing accidents on UKC to be infantile in its inability to face up to acknowledge what other sports and industries would consider essential discussion.
Instead what the UK climbing scene has is a culture of silence. Pity as uninformed speculation can lead to useful discussion and potentially issues discussed that some might not otherwise have been aware of.
Instead we will know nothing and to all intents and purposes no accident occurred.
If I ever have an accident climbing I would hope it is discussed and analysed as much as possible. If that be in a public forum, so what. I find the approach to climbing accidents on UKC to be infantile in its inability to face up to acknowledge what other sports and industries would consider essential discussion.
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In reply to David Martin:
The French site camptocamp manage this problem admirably by having two parallel threads. One for sympathy/condolences and the other for discussion. These threads are very well moderated and inappropriate posts are immediately shunted onto the other thread.
The French site camptocamp manage this problem admirably by having two parallel threads. One for sympathy/condolences and the other for discussion. These threads are very well moderated and inappropriate posts are immediately shunted onto the other thread.
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In reply to David Martin:
But in the fullness of time
> If I ever have an accident climbing I would hope it is discussed and analysed as much as possible. If that be in a public forum, so what. I find the approach to climbing accidents on UKC to be infantile in its inability to face up to acknowledge what other sports and industries would consider essential discussion.
But in the fullness of time
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In reply to Urgles:
No need to act like one yourself.
Webster is entitled to an opinion and J Karren's response to it was was well balanced and sensible without resorting to name calling.
> knob
No need to act like one yourself.
Webster is entitled to an opinion and J Karren's response to it was was well balanced and sensible without resorting to name calling.
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In reply to David Martin:
It's like groundhog day. Go to almost any recent thread on issues with UK accident reporting and follow the links to the many places where excellent analysis already occurs. Other countries do things differently, some more centralised than others but the UK does an awful lot (I'd argue in the context of our lack of alpine or big wall venues, perhaps up with the best in the world) and all done with experts looking at a proper evidence base. Immediate threads on a web forum can almost never do this well and unless they have clear permissions should usually stick to best wishes/condolences otherwise people already dealing with tragedy may have to deal with hurtful speculation as well. Sadly there is a long history of attention seeking people having to have a say, even sometimes making shit up. The motorway queues due to rubbernecking (with accidents commonly occuring on the opposite cariageway as a result) also show up truly infantile human behaviour.
You make the comparison with other UK sports but the evidence base resolves faster in those always given as examples, and its much easier to post good analysis sooner. You say you are happy to have your accidents publicly discussed, which sounds fair enough at a surface level but things might change say if your mistake might in speculation have led to a serious injury of another climber, or worse).
It's like groundhog day. Go to almost any recent thread on issues with UK accident reporting and follow the links to the many places where excellent analysis already occurs. Other countries do things differently, some more centralised than others but the UK does an awful lot (I'd argue in the context of our lack of alpine or big wall venues, perhaps up with the best in the world) and all done with experts looking at a proper evidence base. Immediate threads on a web forum can almost never do this well and unless they have clear permissions should usually stick to best wishes/condolences otherwise people already dealing with tragedy may have to deal with hurtful speculation as well. Sadly there is a long history of attention seeking people having to have a say, even sometimes making shit up. The motorway queues due to rubbernecking (with accidents commonly occuring on the opposite cariageway as a result) also show up truly infantile human behaviour.
You make the comparison with other UK sports but the evidence base resolves faster in those always given as examples, and its much easier to post good analysis sooner. You say you are happy to have your accidents publicly discussed, which sounds fair enough at a surface level but things might change say if your mistake might in speculation have led to a serious injury of another climber, or worse).
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In reply to David Martin:
In the one case recently where an accident was discussed - the guy shouting safe at the top of a sports route before throwing himself into the un prepared belayer - I actually took some leanings away from that.
My partner and I now practice much clearer communications and he now no longer shouts"TAKE some SLACK"
In the one case recently where an accident was discussed - the guy shouting safe at the top of a sports route before throwing himself into the un prepared belayer - I actually took some leanings away from that.
My partner and I now practice much clearer communications and he now no longer shouts"TAKE some SLACK"
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The OP wasn't doing an accident analysis, he was asking if anyone knew how someone in an accident he witnessed was doing. That's just human compassion.
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In reply to radddogg:
If you are still learning such basic lessons I'd say you really need some proper instruction, or to climb with some more experienced climbers. Lots here will volunteer to help.
Some examples of Brits supposedly not talking about accidents:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-dangerous-are-climbing-and-hill-walking
http://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/information-centre/incident-statistics
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/research.asp
http://www.ldsamra.org.uk/accidents.aspx
http://www.mountain-training.org/latest-news/2014-incidents-and-near-misses
Doesn't stop people complaining about it not happening of course (nor wanting to talk immediatly - usually rubbernecking nonsense if the facts are not yet at all clear).
If you are still learning such basic lessons I'd say you really need some proper instruction, or to climb with some more experienced climbers. Lots here will volunteer to help.
Some examples of Brits supposedly not talking about accidents:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-dangerous-are-climbing-and-hill-walking
http://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/information-centre/incident-statistics
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/research.asp
http://www.ldsamra.org.uk/accidents.aspx
http://www.mountain-training.org/latest-news/2014-incidents-and-near-misses
Doesn't stop people complaining about it not happening of course (nor wanting to talk immediatly - usually rubbernecking nonsense if the facts are not yet at all clear).
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In reply to Ramblin dave:
Accidents are as much a part of climbing as the crags and mountains, and they can happen to anyone from beginner to expert.
Expressing condolences on a forum is fine, but the minute it turns into a debate about the cause of the accident - when 99% of people commenting are not in possession of any facts regarding the circumstances - it becomes the equivalent of two old ladies gossiping over the garden fence about 'her from number 14'.
> There's a case for more analysis of "what went wrong" in UK climbing accidents in the hope of avoiding similar accidents in future. On the other hand, that sort of thing really needs to be done rigorously and by people with access to as much information about what actually happened as possible - when it starts happening informally on here it tends to descend into uninformed speculation and finger pointing, which benefits nobody. In the immediate aftermath it's probably best for most of us to stick to expressing sympathy or staying clear.
Accidents are as much a part of climbing as the crags and mountains, and they can happen to anyone from beginner to expert.
Expressing condolences on a forum is fine, but the minute it turns into a debate about the cause of the accident - when 99% of people commenting are not in possession of any facts regarding the circumstances - it becomes the equivalent of two old ladies gossiping over the garden fence about 'her from number 14'.
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In reply to soames bach:
After having a very serious accident myself some years back and been lifted out...spending several months in hospital and then been involved in another a couple of years ago where a very close friend was lucky to come out alive .I would like to point out that I wasn't asking for the accident details just enquiring how the lass was? .I have been climbing for a long time and always appreciated the brilliant sense of community within our way of life. I hope the lady recovers quickly and her family are comforted that other people who don't know her care!!
After having a very serious accident myself some years back and been lifted out...spending several months in hospital and then been involved in another a couple of years ago where a very close friend was lucky to come out alive .I would like to point out that I wasn't asking for the accident details just enquiring how the lass was? .I have been climbing for a long time and always appreciated the brilliant sense of community within our way of life. I hope the lady recovers quickly and her family are comforted that other people who don't know her care!!
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In reply to Offwidth:
I wasn't saying I wasn't aware of the benefits of checking knots, wearing a helmet or knotting a rappel rope, I meant I thought they were trivial and nobody actually died from such mistakes. Reading page after page of people dying or being injured due to these elementary mistakes drummed it home that perhaps I should be more careful.
> If you are still learning such basic lessons I'd say you really need some proper instruction, or to climb with some more experienced climbers. Lots here will volunteer to help.
I wasn't saying I wasn't aware of the benefits of checking knots, wearing a helmet or knotting a rappel rope, I meant I thought they were trivial and nobody actually died from such mistakes. Reading page after page of people dying or being injured due to these elementary mistakes drummed it home that perhaps I should be more careful.
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In reply to spenser:
Actually, this is the only information I need to know. I'm not getting into the endless discussion again, but the bare bones that someone decked off a specific route is generally useful. Perhaps, ideally, some non-judgemental classification such as 'gear ripped', 'belay failure', 'abseiling accident', 'loose rock' etc would be even more helpful.
I just store it away to form a general impression of whether a route/crag is getting a reputation. It might not be a bad idea if it went on the logbook entry for the route either.
> Ultravixens is now permanently banned from any ticklist which I come up with.
Actually, this is the only information I need to know. I'm not getting into the endless discussion again, but the bare bones that someone decked off a specific route is generally useful. Perhaps, ideally, some non-judgemental classification such as 'gear ripped', 'belay failure', 'abseiling accident', 'loose rock' etc would be even more helpful.
I just store it away to form a general impression of whether a route/crag is getting a reputation. It might not be a bad idea if it went on the logbook entry for the route either.
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In reply to soames bach:
I hope you dont think I was annoyed with you... yours seemed to me to be a perfectly reasonable post.
I accept the right for anyone to publicly post immediatly on accidents they caused (or if clear permissions from all those involved are obtained), even if I wouldnt do that myself. Its the 'we all need to learn right now from any accident today', brigade I was responding to, who falsely claim a culture of silence and regularly misrepresent the amount of excellent information available on accident analysis in the UK and have no apparent regard to the complexity of situations following accidents, especially the time to gather and analyse an accident properly and the potential effect of speculative discussion on those already dealing with tragedy.
Climbing is an activity with deliberate inherent risk: those most interested in reducing risk as much as is possible simply shouldn't climb.
I hope you dont think I was annoyed with you... yours seemed to me to be a perfectly reasonable post.
I accept the right for anyone to publicly post immediatly on accidents they caused (or if clear permissions from all those involved are obtained), even if I wouldnt do that myself. Its the 'we all need to learn right now from any accident today', brigade I was responding to, who falsely claim a culture of silence and regularly misrepresent the amount of excellent information available on accident analysis in the UK and have no apparent regard to the complexity of situations following accidents, especially the time to gather and analyse an accident properly and the potential effect of speculative discussion on those already dealing with tragedy.
Climbing is an activity with deliberate inherent risk: those most interested in reducing risk as much as is possible simply shouldn't climb.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Some of the greatest climbing experiences I've had, have been in wild situations that would give the health & safety fraternity a coronary
> Climbing is an activity with deliberate inherent risk: those most interested in reducing risk as much as is possible simply shouldn't climb.
Some of the greatest climbing experiences I've had, have been in wild situations that would give the health & safety fraternity a coronary
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In reply to radddogg:
Nearly all learners advice I've seen from instructors, instruction books, responsible experienced partners etc, gives the new climber the key messages you raise (normally with reasons), right at the start of their climbing but the context can be difficult to take in fully, causing many recreational climbers to adjust later and relearn. Yet as we progress in climbing some (despite genrally good understanding of accident causes) decide to take on extra risks in a range which stretches all the way through the level (in a excellent book on 'Judge Jules' that I've just finished) of regular onsight soloing routes at their limit, to tackling big mountain routes with fatality rates higher than Russian Roulette. Where does irresponsibility in climbing games start if not by the act of choosing to climb?
Nearly all learners advice I've seen from instructors, instruction books, responsible experienced partners etc, gives the new climber the key messages you raise (normally with reasons), right at the start of their climbing but the context can be difficult to take in fully, causing many recreational climbers to adjust later and relearn. Yet as we progress in climbing some (despite genrally good understanding of accident causes) decide to take on extra risks in a range which stretches all the way through the level (in a excellent book on 'Judge Jules' that I've just finished) of regular onsight soloing routes at their limit, to tackling big mountain routes with fatality rates higher than Russian Roulette. Where does irresponsibility in climbing games start if not by the act of choosing to climb?
In reply to Offwidth:
The best piece of advice I've ever been given was from Don Whillans - 'Always know when to back off something lad. There's nowt clever about getting killed'.
The best piece of advice I've ever been given was from Don Whillans - 'Always know when to back off something lad. There's nowt clever about getting killed'.
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In reply to Goucho:
Wasn't one of his other sayings "Remember the mountain will always be there, the trick is ensuring that you are too!"
Wasn't one of his other sayings "Remember the mountain will always be there, the trick is ensuring that you are too!"
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In reply to Trangia:
I think it was.
If he'd applied his wisdom on the mountains, to his life off the mountains, history might judge him completely different?
> Wasn't one of his other sayings "Remember the mountain will always be there, the trick is ensuring that you are too!"
I think it was.
If he'd applied his wisdom on the mountains, to his life off the mountains, history might judge him completely different?
Post edited at 12:31
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In reply to jon:
That sounds like a great idea. To address people's desire for an opportunity to help others by learning from their mistakes, we've recently started a reporting service which will publish people's stories in Summit magazine.
More details here: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/learning-lessons-from-accidents
> The French site camptocamp manage this problem admirably by having two parallel threads. One for sympathy/condolences and the other for discussion. These threads are very well moderated and inappropriate posts are immediately shunted onto the other thread.
That sounds like a great idea. To address people's desire for an opportunity to help others by learning from their mistakes, we've recently started a reporting service which will publish people's stories in Summit magazine.
More details here: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/learning-lessons-from-accidents
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
It was a lead fall onto a cam similar in size to a grey Dragon cam which ripped. The crag seemed to be in near perfect condition but when asked the lady said that the slot the cam was placed in had been a bit greasy. The cam took some of the force of the fall as her belayer felt the rope go tight.
There is now no need to speculate as to the cause of the accident as I witnessed the whole thing.
It was a lead fall onto a cam similar in size to a grey Dragon cam which ripped. The crag seemed to be in near perfect condition but when asked the lady said that the slot the cam was placed in had been a bit greasy. The cam took some of the force of the fall as her belayer felt the rope go tight.
There is now no need to speculate as to the cause of the accident as I witnessed the whole thing.
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In reply to spenser:
Thanks for that post; making these sorts of details public can be genuinely useful, IMO. I'm personally aware of several recent incidents of this type involving cams. It's becoming more widely realised, thankfully, that cams have their limitations, after years of reputedly being ideal for parallel-sided cracks. Actually, for a genuinely trustworthy placement, they rely on favourable features of the rock - rugosities and constrictions - especially in low-friction rock types such as limestone.
Thanks for that post; making these sorts of details public can be genuinely useful, IMO. I'm personally aware of several recent incidents of this type involving cams. It's becoming more widely realised, thankfully, that cams have their limitations, after years of reputedly being ideal for parallel-sided cracks. Actually, for a genuinely trustworthy placement, they rely on favourable features of the rock - rugosities and constrictions - especially in low-friction rock types such as limestone.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I think, though may well not be the case here, that there is an assumption among some people that I have climbed with that if a cam stays in when they let go of the triggers then it is "bomber". I even say one cam flick out as the leader pulled the ropes up. Just something to be aware of.
I think, though may well not be the case here, that there is an assumption among some people that I have climbed with that if a cam stays in when they let go of the triggers then it is "bomber". I even say one cam flick out as the leader pulled the ropes up. Just something to be aware of.
In reply to joem:
In case anyone hasn't spotted it, GridNorth has started a new thread on the subject of how much faith people put in cam placements and when:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=623934
which is probably the place to go for general discussion on the subject. I'm following it with interest...
In case anyone hasn't spotted it, GridNorth has started a new thread on the subject of how much faith people put in cam placements and when:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=623934
which is probably the place to go for general discussion on the subject. I'm following it with interest...
Post edited at 13:35
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