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I have 8m of 5mm cord that I want to used to bring my anchor points together, is that thick enough?
Also, would you belay direct off the anchor if it was built using trad gear?
Also, would you belay direct off the anchor if it was built using trad gear?
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
No and No, in that order!
You can look up 5mm cord online and see it has a breaking strength of 5kN which is wholly inadequate for making an anchor. Buy a cordalette like this: http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/wild-country-400cm-x-10mm-cordelette-F182202...
(I would direct belay quite happily if it were a trad anchor built not using your 5mm cord).
No and No, in that order!
You can look up 5mm cord online and see it has a breaking strength of 5kN which is wholly inadequate for making an anchor. Buy a cordalette like this: http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/wild-country-400cm-x-10mm-cordelette-F182202...
(I would direct belay quite happily if it were a trad anchor built not using your 5mm cord).
2
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
A single strand of 5mm is at the lower end of acceptable strength for an anchor however used as a loop, on more than one piece and equalised it should be fine, assuming trad, why not just use ropes and ditch cordellette, pretty time consuming and pointless for most trad.
Direct belay why?, if you want to catch softly, use body weight and strenght to resist a fall or assist partner when it gets too steep then clip plate to your belay loop and crack on
If you want to escape the system regularly!!! or use a system designed for guides then consider cordellette and direct belay
You can't beat finishing a great pitch, slinging a spike, firing in a bomber wire/cam, hitching your ropes to the binders and shouting safe, quick and effective. ( I'll pass over the hrs of grovelling in the heather when placements don't appear)
PS I should have just draped the rope over the spike, quicker
A single strand of 5mm is at the lower end of acceptable strength for an anchor however used as a loop, on more than one piece and equalised it should be fine, assuming trad, why not just use ropes and ditch cordellette, pretty time consuming and pointless for most trad.
Direct belay why?, if you want to catch softly, use body weight and strenght to resist a fall or assist partner when it gets too steep then clip plate to your belay loop and crack on
If you want to escape the system regularly!!! or use a system designed for guides then consider cordellette and direct belay
You can't beat finishing a great pitch, slinging a spike, firing in a bomber wire/cam, hitching your ropes to the binders and shouting safe, quick and effective. ( I'll pass over the hrs of grovelling in the heather when placements don't appear)
PS I should have just draped the rope over the spike, quicker
Post edited at 05:58
6
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
The real question is "would you?"
For me it would depend on what colour it was and the prevailing atmospheric conditions...
The real question is "would you?"
For me it would depend on what colour it was and the prevailing atmospheric conditions...
5
In reply to gethin_allen:
Why? assuming you've used at least two bits of gear in your anchor you're on four strands, six if you've placed three bits. And you're there to monitor it. Abseiling would you be prepared to sacrifice three bits of gear, three carabineers...
> I'd abseil off it but I wouldn't use it in a belay ...
Why? assuming you've used at least two bits of gear in your anchor you're on four strands, six if you've placed three bits. And you're there to monitor it. Abseiling would you be prepared to sacrifice three bits of gear, three carabineers...
1
In reply to John Kelly:
That's failing to account for the loss of strength in knots (admittedly not massive for rope rather than slings) and assuming perfect equalization (which is just not a thing, ever).
Why bother with the anchor at all if you aren't going to use it because its too weak to take a proper fall? Are you really going to hold that 5kN (500 kg) yourself?
I have some for (EMERGENCY) abseil tat - I would probably use a few loops if I had the option. Abseiling you can minimise the loads to probably double your bodyweight (assuming a bit of unintended bouncing etc) and it really shouldn't hit 5kN.
> A single strand of 5mm is at the lower end of acceptable strength for an anchor however used as a loop, on more than one piece and equalised it should be fine, assuming trad, why not just use ropes and ditch cordellette, pretty time consuming and pointless for most trad.
That's failing to account for the loss of strength in knots (admittedly not massive for rope rather than slings) and assuming perfect equalization (which is just not a thing, ever).
> Direct belay why?, if you want to catch softly, use body weight and strenght to resist a fall or assist partner when it gets too steep then clip plate to your belay loop and crack on
Why bother with the anchor at all if you aren't going to use it because its too weak to take a proper fall? Are you really going to hold that 5kN (500 kg) yourself?
I have some for (EMERGENCY) abseil tat - I would probably use a few loops if I had the option. Abseiling you can minimise the loads to probably double your bodyweight (assuming a bit of unintended bouncing etc) and it really shouldn't hit 5kN.
1
In reply to Hyphin:
All to do with dynamic forces and loads.
You could take a factor 2 fall onto a belay, and when top roping there's the pulley effect to consider.
Abseiling it's just you going down.
Also, just out of practicality, if you are going top roping it's not much effort to take bigger stuff to set up the anchors, bulk and weight comes into play more when multi pitch climbing.
All to do with dynamic forces and loads.
You could take a factor 2 fall onto a belay, and when top roping there's the pulley effect to consider.
Abseiling it's just you going down.
Also, just out of practicality, if you are going top roping it's not much effort to take bigger stuff to set up the anchors, bulk and weight comes into play more when multi pitch climbing.
Post edited at 14:34
2
In reply to gethin_allen:
open a whole new can of worms. Should you really be belaying a leader off the anchors?
> You could take a factor 2 fall onto a belay, and
open a whole new can of worms. Should you really be belaying a leader off the anchors?
Post edited at 16:03
In reply to Hyphin:
Seems like a common practice among Germans on easier multi-pitch climbs in Dolomites (up to UIAA V). Most of them belay the second AND the leader with a munter hitch straight off the anchor.
Seems like a common practice among Germans on easier multi-pitch climbs in Dolomites (up to UIAA V). Most of them belay the second AND the leader with a munter hitch straight off the anchor.
In reply to PPP:
May well be so, but puts your brake rope in a sub-optimal position, suspect it's likely to put a bit of a twist in the rope and unless you've put in a "jesus piece" risks a ff2 onto the anchors.
However back on topic 5mm is marginal, better than nothing but why deliberately go that way unless there are pressing technical reasons to do so?
May well be so, but puts your brake rope in a sub-optimal position, suspect it's likely to put a bit of a twist in the rope and unless you've put in a "jesus piece" risks a ff2 onto the anchors.
However back on topic 5mm is marginal, better than nothing but why deliberately go that way unless there are pressing technical reasons to do so?
2
In reply to Hyphin:
I was surprised as well by such technique. Most of the belays were cemented or pegged though.
Talking about the cord, I would prefer something thicker as well. For example, the weight difference between 5mm and 6mm is just 3g/m or 19% heavier ( http://www.bananafingers.co.uk/tendon-6mm-accessory-cord-metre-p-605.html ) with 40% strength increase. 7mm is a lot heavier in comparison, but if you carry 5 metres of it, it would still be just 75g difference.
I haven't noticed in this thread, but thinner cord can also be cut easier if loaded over the edge?
I was surprised as well by such technique. Most of the belays were cemented or pegged though.
Talking about the cord, I would prefer something thicker as well. For example, the weight difference between 5mm and 6mm is just 3g/m or 19% heavier ( http://www.bananafingers.co.uk/tendon-6mm-accessory-cord-metre-p-605.html ) with 40% strength increase. 7mm is a lot heavier in comparison, but if you carry 5 metres of it, it would still be just 75g difference.
I haven't noticed in this thread, but thinner cord can also be cut easier if loaded over the edge?
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
Honestly I wouldn't bother, it's not that strong and dyneema slings are very light and flexible. I always keep a couple ready on screw gates and a few spare racked behind with the belay kit.
Honestly I wouldn't bother, it's not that strong and dyneema slings are very light and flexible. I always keep a couple ready on screw gates and a few spare racked behind with the belay kit.
In reply to treforsouthwell:
yea, but it keeps you entertained for an afternoon when you're meant to be working (ok keeps me entertained)
yea, but it keeps you entertained for an afternoon when you're meant to be working (ok keeps me entertained)
In reply to PPP:
It's not just the weight though. A Fishermans knot in 6mm is a lot bulkier than one in 5mm. My preference is to use the ropes. They are 9mm or thereabouts and nothing extra to carry.
Al
It's not just the weight though. A Fishermans knot in 6mm is a lot bulkier than one in 5mm. My preference is to use the ropes. They are 9mm or thereabouts and nothing extra to carry.
Al
4
In reply to Hyphin:
For a short while you've not got much choice.
Obviously the leader should try and place some gear asap off the belay but if there's nothing available your a bit stuffed otherwise.
The leader could clip the highest piece of the belay to reduce the fall factor a bit but that has it's own risks unless the gear is super bomber.
> open a whole new can of worms. Should you really be belaying a leader off the anchors?
For a short while you've not got much choice.
Obviously the leader should try and place some gear asap off the belay but if there's nothing available your a bit stuffed otherwise.
The leader could clip the highest piece of the belay to reduce the fall factor a bit but that has it's own risks unless the gear is super bomber.
In reply to Hyphin:
With a Munter yep. With a belay plate, possibly. There is much recent stuff on the internet about doing this. However, I would suggest that not enough falls have been held to recommend it.
> open a whole new can of worms. Should you really be belaying a leader off the anchors?
With a Munter yep. With a belay plate, possibly. There is much recent stuff on the internet about doing this. However, I would suggest that not enough falls have been held to recommend it.
2
2
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
edelrid 5mm cord has a breaking strength of 8.8kn as a loop double that it's stronger than any protection nuts or hexes, fr bringing up seconds direct off the anchor is a god send for belaying a leader there really are no advantages.
edelrid 5mm cord has a breaking strength of 8.8kn as a loop double that it's stronger than any protection nuts or hexes, fr bringing up seconds direct off the anchor is a god send for belaying a leader there really are no advantages.
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
I understand why you would want to. Get to the top, unable to find a thread or spike so having to rely on passive protection or cams, you want to equalize the load. It's a load easier to do that with something light like 5mm rather than the rope or slings.
There is a great article and video on equalising anxious here http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2592
I would do it
I understand why you would want to. Get to the top, unable to find a thread or spike so having to rely on passive protection or cams, you want to equalize the load. It's a load easier to do that with something light like 5mm rather than the rope or slings.
There is a great article and video on equalising anxious here http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2592
I would do it
Post edited at 00:15
1
In reply to radddogg:
No it isn't, especially if your decent anchors are a long way apart. Why restrict yourself to anchors within a couple of metres of where you top out ? Recipe for disaster IMO
> I understand why you would want to. Get to the top, unable to find a thread or spike so having to rely on passive protection or cams, you want to equalize the load. It's a load easier to do that with something light like 5mm rather than the rope or slings.
No it isn't, especially if your decent anchors are a long way apart. Why restrict yourself to anchors within a couple of metres of where you top out ? Recipe for disaster IMO
In reply to sebflynn:
I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that a loop of cord isn't simply double the strength of a single strand.
I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that a loop of cord isn't simply double the strength of a single strand.
1
In reply to GrahamD:
Your anchors shouldn't be a long way apart. If you like overloading your anchors by placing them further than 60deg apart then that's your risk.
How is this restricted to a couple of metres of where you top out? You can go back as far as you want. The cord is purely to centralise the anchors to one screw gate and then you extend with the rope to where you want to belay from.
I'm not saying this is my first choice or preference but that wasn't the question.
> No it isn't, especially if your decent anchors are a long way apart. Why restrict yourself to anchors within a couple of metres of where you top out ? Recipe for disaster IMO
Your anchors shouldn't be a long way apart. If you like overloading your anchors by placing them further than 60deg apart then that's your risk.
How is this restricted to a couple of metres of where you top out? You can go back as far as you want. The cord is purely to centralise the anchors to one screw gate and then you extend with the rope to where you want to belay from.
I'm not saying this is my first choice or preference but that wasn't the question.
In reply to radddogg:
If the solid anchors are 10m away from where you top out, they will be a long way apart even at less than 60 degrees.
If the solid anchors are 10m away from where you top out, they will be a long way apart even at less than 60 degrees.
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
I'd ab off it without a worry. Three loops of it (double strands) well equalised would be adequately strong for a belay. Two equalised loops I would consider fairly marginal but probably still stronger than me and my belay plate which is probably still the load limiting element in the set-up. Using it as a single strand I'd want 4 bits of gear so two single strands and two loops.
Personally I wouldn't bother, I'd just use the ropes which are perfectly suited to to task and available.
jk
I'd ab off it without a worry. Three loops of it (double strands) well equalised would be adequately strong for a belay. Two equalised loops I would consider fairly marginal but probably still stronger than me and my belay plate which is probably still the load limiting element in the set-up. Using it as a single strand I'd want 4 bits of gear so two single strands and two loops.
Personally I wouldn't bother, I'd just use the ropes which are perfectly suited to to task and available.
jk
4
In reply to GrahamD:
I can't really picture what you mean sorry.
I think for me although IMO it is perfectly safe, which was the original question, I've never found a situation where I couldn't get by with the rope and slings I was already carrying.
My preference would be a longer dyneema sling looped separately through each piece and equalised with an overhand knot in the centre to create 3 bights and one screwgate through all three bights with the rope looped through the crab and clove hitched to a screwgate on my harness (belay/rope loop) to allow adjustment.
Obviously if there is a thread, stake, tree or spike I'd just loop a sling or the rope around that.
I can't really picture what you mean sorry.
I think for me although IMO it is perfectly safe, which was the original question, I've never found a situation where I couldn't get by with the rope and slings I was already carrying.
My preference would be a longer dyneema sling looped separately through each piece and equalised with an overhand knot in the centre to create 3 bights and one screwgate through all three bights with the rope looped through the crab and clove hitched to a screwgate on my harness (belay/rope loop) to allow adjustment.
Obviously if there is a thread, stake, tree or spike I'd just loop a sling or the rope around that.
In reply to radddogg:
If the gear is a long way back (say at the back of a deep ledge), then the individual pieces could easily be several metres apart, while the angle between the pieces remains small because they're a long way away from where you're belaying.
> I can't really picture what you mean sorry.
If the gear is a long way back (say at the back of a deep ledge), then the individual pieces could easily be several metres apart, while the angle between the pieces remains small because they're a long way away from where you're belaying.
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
I've got a length of Edelrid Tech Webbing I use for this purpose, as well as for slinging large boulders etc. - much easier to rig and retrieve than a cordellette (and can be threaded for a longer length), and sooo much easier to re-rack/handle.
http://www.edelrid.de/en/sports/tech-web-12-mm-oasis.html
It's 2-3x stronger than 5 mm cord (depending on your flavour) and only a couple of grams heavier (per m).
I've got a length of Edelrid Tech Webbing I use for this purpose, as well as for slinging large boulders etc. - much easier to rig and retrieve than a cordellette (and can be threaded for a longer length), and sooo much easier to re-rack/handle.
http://www.edelrid.de/en/sports/tech-web-12-mm-oasis.html
It's 2-3x stronger than 5 mm cord (depending on your flavour) and only a couple of grams heavier (per m).
In reply to GrahamD:
Are you really going to tie into three belay stakes?
> Often the case with belay stakes at the top of Swanage as an example
Are you really going to tie into three belay stakes?
1
1
In reply to tehmarks:
It's not quite that simple, if you take into account the knot you use it can weaken the loop quite a bit (blood knot retains 90% strength of cord), but as a loop in theory it doubles the strength providing the joining doesn't weaken what ever the cord/webbing.
It's not quite that simple, if you take into account the knot you use it can weaken the loop quite a bit (blood knot retains 90% strength of cord), but as a loop in theory it doubles the strength providing the joining doesn't weaken what ever the cord/webbing.
Post edited at 15:58
In reply to radddogg:
Not normally, no. Usually two if I can.Point is though that to equalise this sort of anchor you need to have long ropes - slings or cordelettes are useless.
> Are you really going to tie into three belay stakes?
Not normally, no. Usually two if I can.Point is though that to equalise this sort of anchor you need to have long ropes - slings or cordelettes are useless.
2
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
I asked this question with long alpine routes in mind, with 2 or 3 on a rope. Using the cord for a belay I can run the pitches a little longer, as I'm not wasting rope in the anchor. Also I can continue to lead much more easily if the second(s) are tired/slow or don't like the look of the next pitch. But with this technique I would need to carry 2 lengths of cord (as one is always left behind in the anchor), hence going as lightweight as possible.
I asked this question with long alpine routes in mind, with 2 or 3 on a rope. Using the cord for a belay I can run the pitches a little longer, as I'm not wasting rope in the anchor. Also I can continue to lead much more easily if the second(s) are tired/slow or don't like the look of the next pitch. But with this technique I would need to carry 2 lengths of cord (as one is always left behind in the anchor), hence going as lightweight as possible.
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
Apart from P1, you shouldn't need to carry two sets of anchor building material. Once you leave it at the belay, your second is going to bring the cord to the next belay. It doesn't matter whether you alternate or lead in blocks, you will always have to carry just one set. Even if you don't use it, you can just give it to your second as you still need only one (and your second can carry some extra weight).
...unless you really like carrying a kitchen sink on your harness.
Apart from P1, you shouldn't need to carry two sets of anchor building material. Once you leave it at the belay, your second is going to bring the cord to the next belay. It doesn't matter whether you alternate or lead in blocks, you will always have to carry just one set. Even if you don't use it, you can just give it to your second as you still need only one (and your second can carry some extra weight).
...unless you really like carrying a kitchen sink on your harness.
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
Long alpine - light is right, belay with rope and skinny slings (60cm, 120cm)
Long alpine - light is right, belay with rope and skinny slings (60cm, 120cm)
In reply to John Kelly:
A length of cord is brilliant for long alpine. It's more versatile and easier to equalize correctly than fixed length slings, lighter than hauling an extra 5 metres of rope around and it can be cut up and used to rig abseils.
> Long alpine - light is right, belay with rope and skinny slings (60cm, 120cm)
A length of cord is brilliant for long alpine. It's more versatile and easier to equalize correctly than fixed length slings, lighter than hauling an extra 5 metres of rope around and it can be cut up and used to rig abseils.
2
In reply to GrahamD:
If they're 10 metres away your going to need at least 20 metres of rope to equalize them
If they're 10 metres away your going to need at least 20 metres of rope to equalize them
1
In reply to timjones:
They often are 10m back at Swanage ! you only need 10m of rope though - just means you have to tie off the rope end to the stake and tie back in part way down the rope. Needs must and all that ...
> If they're 10 metres away your going to need at least 20 metres of rope to equalize them
They often are 10m back at Swanage ! you only need 10m of rope though - just means you have to tie off the rope end to the stake and tie back in part way down the rope. Needs must and all that ...
In reply to GrahamD:
A range of techniques is always useful, I find that 20 feet of cord adds the range of options that can be used.
> They often are 10m back at Swanage ! you only need 10m of rope though - just means you have to tie off the rope end to the stake and tie back in part way down the rope. Needs must and all that ...
A range of techniques is always useful, I find that 20 feet of cord adds the range of options that can be used.
In reply to radddogg:
I do it regularly when setting up an abseil at the top of Baggy Point Promontory easy slab (Freddie/Marion etc) because I don't really trust any of the stakes there very much... but I don't use any gear to do that other than the abseil rope itself (fig 8 loop clove hitched to stake 1, stakes 2 & 3 clove hitched using large alpine butterfly loops, finally two strands of the 100m ab rope joined with another alpine butterfly which also makes a convenient clipping point).
> Are you really going to tie into three belay stakes?
I do it regularly when setting up an abseil at the top of Baggy Point Promontory easy slab (Freddie/Marion etc) because I don't really trust any of the stakes there very much... but I don't use any gear to do that other than the abseil rope itself (fig 8 loop clove hitched to stake 1, stakes 2 & 3 clove hitched using large alpine butterfly loops, finally two strands of the 100m ab rope joined with another alpine butterfly which also makes a convenient clipping point).
In reply to GrahamD:
I regularly find myself untying one rope (and being very sure not to drop it, often clovehitching to myself first) when I think it will be easier to tie off the rope to a stake, thread, tree, boulder etc. Personally I often find it simpler/quicker to 'rig' the top to a single rope and clovehitch on rather than going out-back, out-back, out-back etc to each piece...
> They often are 10m back at Swanage ! you only need 10m of rope though - just means you have to tie off the rope end to the stake and tie back in part way down the rope. Needs must and all that ...
I regularly find myself untying one rope (and being very sure not to drop it, often clovehitching to myself first) when I think it will be easier to tie off the rope to a stake, thread, tree, boulder etc. Personally I often find it simpler/quicker to 'rig' the top to a single rope and clovehitch on rather than going out-back, out-back, out-back etc to each piece...
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
I have a cordelette for this purpose that I use when I'm block leading with two seconds, to avoid faff, but it's 7mm (which I think is "standard" cordelette width). I'd be nervous about taking a FF2 onto 5mm.
I have a cordelette for this purpose that I use when I'm block leading with two seconds, to avoid faff, but it's 7mm (which I think is "standard" cordelette width). I'd be nervous about taking a FF2 onto 5mm.
In reply to PPP:
''Apart from P1, you shouldn't need to carry two sets of anchor building material. Once you leave it at the belay, your second is going to bring the cord to the next belay. It doesn't matter whether you alternate or lead in blocks, you will always have to carry just one set. Even if you don't use it, you can just give it to your second as you still need only one (and your second can carry some extra weight).
...unless you really like carrying a kitchen sink on your harness.''
And what do I build the anchor with in order to belay my second?
''Apart from P1, you shouldn't need to carry two sets of anchor building material. Once you leave it at the belay, your second is going to bring the cord to the next belay. It doesn't matter whether you alternate or lead in blocks, you will always have to carry just one set. Even if you don't use it, you can just give it to your second as you still need only one (and your second can carry some extra weight).
...unless you really like carrying a kitchen sink on your harness.''
And what do I build the anchor with in order to belay my second?
1
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
You are carrying two sets of anchor building material. Climb P1. Use one set. You now have one set remaining. Belay second. Climb P2. Use remaining set. Belay second. Second dismantles P1 belay and brings P1 anchor material to be used on P3.
Climb, build, belay, repeat.
You are carrying two sets of anchor building material. Climb P1. Use one set. You now have one set remaining. Belay second. Climb P2. Use remaining set. Belay second. Second dismantles P1 belay and brings P1 anchor material to be used on P3.
Climb, build, belay, repeat.
In reply to radddogg:
Yes indeed, that's exactly the same technique I use. Hence my question to PPP.
Yes indeed, that's exactly the same technique I use. Hence my question to PPP.
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
My bad, the way I wrote it sounds a little bit ambiguous. English is not my first language, so I've got an excuse :P.
You need two sets of anchor building material, but at any given time while climbing, you would have only one with you while the other stays with your partner.
My bad, the way I wrote it sounds a little bit ambiguous. English is not my first language, so I've got an excuse :P.
You need two sets of anchor building material, but at any given time while climbing, you would have only one with you while the other stays with your partner.
Post edited at 22:27
In reply to Mike Hewitt:
I only build anchors with slings when block leading (often with two seconds).
DMM 8mm 400cm sling: 115g.
8m of 7mm Mammut accessory cord @ 31 g/m: 248g (and a lot more bulky).
Even with only 5mm cord @ 15 g/m: 120g (and really not strong enough for a lead anchor).
The magic Beal 5.5mm dyneema cord you can get which is rated to 18kN is probably fine, but 8m of that @ 20g/m will weigh 160g and cost roughly twice what the 400cm sling costs...
PS no issue direct belaying off good trad anchors. And if your trad anchors aren't good, then you are doing it wrong anyway usually...
I only build anchors with slings when block leading (often with two seconds).
DMM 8mm 400cm sling: 115g.
8m of 7mm Mammut accessory cord @ 31 g/m: 248g (and a lot more bulky).
Even with only 5mm cord @ 15 g/m: 120g (and really not strong enough for a lead anchor).
The magic Beal 5.5mm dyneema cord you can get which is rated to 18kN is probably fine, but 8m of that @ 20g/m will weigh 160g and cost roughly twice what the 400cm sling costs...
PS no issue direct belaying off good trad anchors. And if your trad anchors aren't good, then you are doing it wrong anyway usually...
Post edited at 09:39
In reply to andrewmcleod:
There would be very few circumstances when any of the kit you mention couldn't be replaced by the rope, unnecessary
> I only build anchors with slings when block leading (often with two seconds).
> DMM 8mm 400cm sling: 115g.
> 8m of 7mm Mammut accessory cord @ 31 g/m: 248g (and a lot more bulky).
> Even with only 5mm cord @ 15 g/m: 120g (and really not strong enough for a lead anchor).
> The magic Beal 5.5mm dyneema cord you can get which is rated to 18kN is probably fine, but 8m of that @ 20g/m will weigh 160g and cost roughly twice what the 400cm sling costs...
> PS no issue direct belaying off good trad anchors. And if your trad anchors aren't good, then you are doing it wrong anyway usually...
There would be very few circumstances when any of the kit you mention couldn't be replaced by the rope, unnecessary
Post edited at 20:07
1
In reply to John Kelly:
Bringing up two seconds at once on a direct belay made of four or five pieces where you will lead the next pitch can be done with the rope, but if you don't use a sling belay then you need up to fifteen snapgates and an absolute rats nest of rope... in general I use the rope but for bringing up multiple novices I find a sling simpler. My point was that in such a case a 4m sling is usually the lightest solution rather than metres of fat cord! The only advantage of 7mm cord is that you can use as a 'snake' cord rather than a loop (with Fig 8 loops at each end).
One size does not fit all in climbing!
PS 4/5 belay pieces is not unreasonable if some are for the seconds and some are for the leader - belays should really be built with the leader in mind and if pieces are directional and route changes direction then you may want a multi-directional anchor... I will concede that I normally aim for two solid pieces. Three is actually a funny number... if I don't really trust either of my two pieces then I will usually just throw a rack at it and aim for 4/5 'probably' solid pieces.
> There would be very few circumstances when any of the kit you mention couldn't be replaced by the rope, unnecessary
Bringing up two seconds at once on a direct belay made of four or five pieces where you will lead the next pitch can be done with the rope, but if you don't use a sling belay then you need up to fifteen snapgates and an absolute rats nest of rope... in general I use the rope but for bringing up multiple novices I find a sling simpler. My point was that in such a case a 4m sling is usually the lightest solution rather than metres of fat cord! The only advantage of 7mm cord is that you can use as a 'snake' cord rather than a loop (with Fig 8 loops at each end).
One size does not fit all in climbing!
PS 4/5 belay pieces is not unreasonable if some are for the seconds and some are for the leader - belays should really be built with the leader in mind and if pieces are directional and route changes direction then you may want a multi-directional anchor... I will concede that I normally aim for two solid pieces. Three is actually a funny number... if I don't really trust either of my two pieces then I will usually just throw a rack at it and aim for 4/5 'probably' solid pieces.
Post edited at 10:03
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In reply to andrewmcleod:
You are of course right there are specific occasions when massive slings and long cords will be very helpful and one size doesn't fit all however getting the most out of your rope and the very basic elements of your rack should be a key skill - 3 days ago watched a bloke walk passed a giant, secure block top first pitch middlefell butress and belay off a couple of 'pieces' 4m further back, not dangerous just less efficient.
I'm always thrown into despair by lengthy belaying manoeuvres and I don't feel secure in guide or on a direct belay, somehow breaks the link between you. Couple of good pieces, hitched to the rope and you'off, happy days.
You are of course right there are specific occasions when massive slings and long cords will be very helpful and one size doesn't fit all however getting the most out of your rope and the very basic elements of your rack should be a key skill - 3 days ago watched a bloke walk passed a giant, secure block top first pitch middlefell butress and belay off a couple of 'pieces' 4m further back, not dangerous just less efficient.
I'm always thrown into despair by lengthy belaying manoeuvres and I don't feel secure in guide or on a direct belay, somehow breaks the link between you. Couple of good pieces, hitched to the rope and you'off, happy days.
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In reply to Mike Hewitt:
here's a chart for mammut cords (strenth/weight/thickness)..http://www.urbanrock.com/5mm-accessory-cord
different companys will have different strengths tho,
i carry 10m of 6mm cord ONLY if im expecting to have to abb off a stack that day- much cheaper than leaving slings as tat. also easyer to improvise with cord if anchors are sketchy.
wouldnt ever top rop of it/use it as standard anchor rigging.
since i only use it for getting of stacks for me it only gets used 1s then is abandoned so no chance of it wearing down as i use it,
here's a chart for mammut cords (strenth/weight/thickness)..http://www.urbanrock.com/5mm-accessory-cord
different companys will have different strengths tho,
i carry 10m of 6mm cord ONLY if im expecting to have to abb off a stack that day- much cheaper than leaving slings as tat. also easyer to improvise with cord if anchors are sketchy.
wouldnt ever top rop of it/use it as standard anchor rigging.
since i only use it for getting of stacks for me it only gets used 1s then is abandoned so no chance of it wearing down as i use it,
In reply to andrewmcleod:
15 snap gates, really? And seriously, I spent a fair chunk of my adult years climbing shale and can count on one hand the number of 5-piece belays I've constructed. If it's crap take it out and find something better. Block leading with two seconds can very easily be done without slings or cordlette but in that specific case a big sling and a couple of screwgates on it can be handy.
jk
> Bringing up two seconds at once on a direct belay made of four or five pieces where you will lead the next pitch can be done with the rope, but if you don't use a sling belay then you need up to fifteen snapgates and an absolute rats nest of rope... in general I use the rope but for bringing up multiple novices I find a sling simpler. My point was that in such a case a 4m sling is usually the lightest solution rather than metres of fat cord! The only advantage of 7mm cord is that you can use as a 'snake' cord rather than a loop (with Fig 8 loops at each end).
15 snap gates, really? And seriously, I spent a fair chunk of my adult years climbing shale and can count on one hand the number of 5-piece belays I've constructed. If it's crap take it out and find something better. Block leading with two seconds can very easily be done without slings or cordlette but in that specific case a big sling and a couple of screwgates on it can be handy.
jk
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Hi,
Why do you need a different number when using the rope than with a sling? Thanks
> Bringing up two seconds at once on a direct belay made of four or five pieces where you will lead the next pitch can be done with the rope, but if you don't use a sling belay then you need up to fifteen snapgates
Hi,
Why do you need a different number when using the rope than with a sling? Thanks
In reply to David Coley:
I think people forget that you can tie knots in ropes thereby eliminating the need for many karibiners.
I think people forget that you can tie knots in ropes thereby eliminating the need for many karibiners.
In reply to andrewmcleod:
I love direct belays and use them whenever the opportunity presents itself but if I felt the need to put in 4 or 5 pieces I would be unlikely to feel confident enough to use a direct belay.
Al
I love direct belays and use them whenever the opportunity presents itself but if I felt the need to put in 4 or 5 pieces I would be unlikely to feel confident enough to use a direct belay.
Al
Post edited at 12:45
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In reply to David Coley:
OK so I am probably comparing two different systems which may not represent the most carabiner-efficient ways of using the gear, and may very well have missed an easier system...
I am assuming that I am leading all the pitches, and so if I tie in with my rope I need to be able to remove my rope afterwards. I have seen systems, although not used it, where the seconds arrive with 'magic carabiners' (usually three snapgates?) which they clip into the gear and tie themselves in with their rope. If you have two seconds they do the same thing (now three carabiners on each piece of gear. If you have five nuts in, then 15 carabiners... You could almost certainly reduce this with a few slings linking gear together and still mostly tie in with the rope, or you could get the first second to build a powerpoint with his rope into the gear and both seconds clip into that. I have never used this system though so I am happy to be corrected and described better methods.
Using a massive sling is obviously only one snapgate per piece of gear. If you aren't leading the next pitch, you can build a powerpoint with the rope and belay from that (and both seconds can clip into it).
I guess you could also just clip all three ropes into each snapgate and just unclip the relevant ropes as you go but that does mean having multiple ropes in a (potentially small) snapgate and opening the gate on a (potentially weighted) carabiner which is part of your belay - fine if you have five nuts, possibly less ideal if you only have two.
> Why do you need a different number when using the rope than with a sling? Thanks
OK so I am probably comparing two different systems which may not represent the most carabiner-efficient ways of using the gear, and may very well have missed an easier system...
I am assuming that I am leading all the pitches, and so if I tie in with my rope I need to be able to remove my rope afterwards. I have seen systems, although not used it, where the seconds arrive with 'magic carabiners' (usually three snapgates?) which they clip into the gear and tie themselves in with their rope. If you have two seconds they do the same thing (now three carabiners on each piece of gear. If you have five nuts in, then 15 carabiners... You could almost certainly reduce this with a few slings linking gear together and still mostly tie in with the rope, or you could get the first second to build a powerpoint with his rope into the gear and both seconds clip into that. I have never used this system though so I am happy to be corrected and described better methods.
Using a massive sling is obviously only one snapgate per piece of gear. If you aren't leading the next pitch, you can build a powerpoint with the rope and belay from that (and both seconds can clip into it).
I guess you could also just clip all three ropes into each snapgate and just unclip the relevant ropes as you go but that does mean having multiple ropes in a (potentially small) snapgate and opening the gate on a (potentially weighted) carabiner which is part of your belay - fine if you have five nuts, possibly less ideal if you only have two.
Post edited at 13:38
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Got it. I was just thinking about two people, and leading through. Thanks.
To be fair, 3 pieces are more normal, and as the seconds carry the carabiners, they don't really count in the same way.
In addition, if cams are being used, they will each be on their own carabiner.
In general I would say as you will probably be direct belaying when climbing in a three, a cordelette or similar would be well worth carrying, especially when climbing in blocks.
Got it. I was just thinking about two people, and leading through. Thanks.
To be fair, 3 pieces are more normal, and as the seconds carry the carabiners, they don't really count in the same way.
In addition, if cams are being used, they will each be on their own carabiner.
In general I would say as you will probably be direct belaying when climbing in a three, a cordelette or similar would be well worth carrying, especially when climbing in blocks.
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