UKC

Do we (the UK and EU) have any wrt to foreign affairs? We seem to go from one emotional response to the next - Palestinians, Syrians etc - with superficial, kneejerk reactions. What are trying to achieve?

In reply to MG:

Palestine, or what was Palestine is a tragedy and the UK are largely responsible for that.
As for the current problems well, the UK, USA and parts of the EU no doubt had some significant role in that. Shoot first and ask question later seems to be the strategy for flushing out these kind of problems. And now we have to deal with the aftermath.
I guess our governments think they are trying to be the world's police without realising the police can only arrest and are not able to deliver justice.

In reply to Gone for good:

'Palestine is a tragedy and the UK are largely responsible for that'. You've been listening to too much Jeremy Corbyn I'm afraid. Israel has been a potential problem waiting to happen since the diaspora - Hitler's actions gave that last push that resulted in the creation of the state of Israel (amongst others, Trueman warned the UK to back off preventing the exodus because of guilt about the Holocaust.)

But do you know what? If Israel hadn't existed, there would still be Sunnis fighting Shias fighting wtf knows. If they didn't have oil it wouldn't be a problem because they would still be fighting each other, only with flintlocks and muskets. I don't know what the answer is but the problem won't go away until viable and mostly secular states are re-established in the region. (Er, like it or not, states like Iraq, Syria and Libya were until quite recently.)

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Your pushing against an open door!

In reply to MG:

No we don't. I wonder if politicians only thinking as far as the next election is part of the problem.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

I think because of Vietnam going so wrong, for so long, there is a political reluctance to fully commit until the job is done. Korea seemed to work overall, the South is now a global leader in many respects, the North the complete opposite.


Not just the votes, but the sheer cost of campaigns, which are bank rolled by donors. Many are from industries with global influence. It is impossible for politics not to be steered to some degree. The UK now has it's Bishops in the lords baying for war, wonder if they would be so keen if these countries were predominately Christian or secular, or put their money where their mouth is, the Pope has pushed the boat out and offered to accept 2 families into the Vatican.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

would agree, I'm sure some will flame me, but religion has a lot to answer for. It's pretty clear that islam, even more so than Christianity can't be interpreted in a very intolerant way. But even before that it was a constantly changing landscape, there whole history over the past 2500 years is one of wars, Persians, Mongols, Roman / Byzantine.... leading on to the more recent Caliphates. etc.. You'd have to go back to the Egyptian/Assyrian Empire to find some stability, again under ruthless dictators, it's the only model that seems to provide stability there.

In reply to MG:


I don't think you can class our response to Palestine a knee jerk reaction, since we've done nothing different since 1968.

We may tell Israel they are very naughty for building more settlements but that's seems to be the limit of our knee jerk reaction.

We've stood by and watched while Gaza has been blockaded for the last 8 years, and done nothing while Israel have committed piracy and murder on the flotilla boats.

In reply to summo:


Some would say it was alright under the Ottoman empire, with Jews and Muslims getting along just fine. I'm no Middle Eastern historian and can't take a view myself. I see no *intrinsic* reason that Muslims and Jews should hate each other the way they seem to over there and at times elsewhere, rather I think it's power and resources that provide the deep motivation for the hatred, and there's been a lot of stirring from the outside when it comes to who's got what. I rather think it's history rather than religion that's to blame here - and I'd attach rather more relevance to the 20th Century than to whatever was supposed to have happened to whom in god-knows-when BC (please, really, can we forget about this like grown-ups?).

In reply to summo:


I don't think we / the Christians did much to help what with the crusades and then later on with the arse we made of Palestine.

In reply to summo:

I really like the more 'mystical' branch of Islam which is Sufism, where the general narrative seems to be that Allah isn't to be found in any places of worship, but inside people's hearts instead, and that same sex relationships are seen as fine so long as the love is genuine.

I wonder what it might take to help it to spread?

In reply to Timmd:



More people listening to 'Beyond Belief' on Radio 4?

In reply to MG:
The basic strategy is to do what will seem popular for the next few weeks in polls and papers. Long term strategy and morality are of little value in the modern world