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How much does a UK family (say family of three) now have to earn to have a comfortable living? Anyone got any figures?
In reply to Heike:
Piece of string, which region, own or rent, pension, savings etc... ?
To be comfortable and think to the future min £60k household, but it really depends if and when people got or get into the housing market.
Piece of string, which region, own or rent, pension, savings etc... ?
To be comfortable and think to the future min £60k household, but it really depends if and when people got or get into the housing market.
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In reply to summo:
Is that 60 k after tax?? Who earns that sort of money. Surely not the majority of the population!!! Sure, big variations, but let's think - not London - to narrow it down. Let's assume a normal family - no pensions or savings, in their 30s/40s with a mortgage.
Is that 60 k after tax?? Who earns that sort of money. Surely not the majority of the population!!! Sure, big variations, but let's think - not London - to narrow it down. Let's assume a normal family - no pensions or savings, in their 30s/40s with a mortgage.
Post edited at 19:46
In reply to Heike:
It was a general average, out of London and a rough guess. Yeah not enough households make it, but that's why many people have no savings, inadequate pension etc.. if you are 40/50 and bought a house 15/20 years ago, then you could live comfortably off less. It does of course depend lifestyle and level of materialism.
It was a general average, out of London and a rough guess. Yeah not enough households make it, but that's why many people have no savings, inadequate pension etc.. if you are 40/50 and bought a house 15/20 years ago, then you could live comfortably off less. It does of course depend lifestyle and level of materialism.
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In reply to Heike:
To buy a family home, with no savings or cash pot you'll need more than 60k to get going. If you wanted to live somewhere reasonably nice.
To buy a family home, with no savings or cash pot you'll need more than 60k to get going. If you wanted to live somewhere reasonably nice.
In reply to summo:
So, that's why incomes in the UK are patently too low -even if you are well educated or doing well in your job - because most people have no huge inheritance or savings. £60,000 for a 40 year old - that is only the realm of a a few..
So, that's why incomes in the UK are patently too low -even if you are well educated or doing well in your job - because most people have no huge inheritance or savings. £60,000 for a 40 year old - that is only the realm of a a few..
Post edited at 19:57
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In reply to Heike:
I started to try to answer this, then realised that without specifying an area the whole thing becomes meaningless.
I started to try to answer this, then realised that without specifying an area the whole thing becomes meaningless.
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In reply to Heike:
I was talking household income, as that is what it comes down to, but as said above, everything is related to where you live and what is required property wise. It has by far and away the biggest effect on standard of living.
> So, that's why incomes in the UK are patently too low -even if you are well educated or doing well in your job - because most people have no huge inheritance or savings. £60,000 for a 40 year old - that is only the realm of a a few..
I was talking household income, as that is what it comes down to, but as said above, everything is related to where you live and what is required property wise. It has by far and away the biggest effect on standard of living.
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In reply to Heike:
It's a bit of an unanswerable question since it also depends on what you call 'comfortable'. For many people that's two cars and all the techie toys, clothes, meals out plus a couple of foreign hols a year. Others may take a different view. My financial advisor recently told me that I live very frugally. I pointed out I'd just come back from two months climbing and walking in Spain which was not exactly my idea of frugality. He still insisted'You live frugally compared to most of my clients'. So I dread to think what he'd call 'comfortable'.
It's a bit of an unanswerable question since it also depends on what you call 'comfortable'. For many people that's two cars and all the techie toys, clothes, meals out plus a couple of foreign hols a year. Others may take a different view. My financial advisor recently told me that I live very frugally. I pointed out I'd just come back from two months climbing and walking in Spain which was not exactly my idea of frugality. He still insisted'You live frugally compared to most of my clients'. So I dread to think what he'd call 'comfortable'.
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In reply to Morty:
Ok, let's take Central Scotland as a location. I am utterly horrified that people would say you need 60,000 after tax. Frankly, this is totally unattainable in Scotland for most people. I have a fairly decent job at university (after 3 degrees) and my husband has a what I thought was reasonably well paid job in It (lots of education, too) an we are nowhere near this money. I think this just shows the discrepancy between English and Scottish parameters.
I was just interested as a comparison. I know from many of my students that they and the families where they come from have a lot less. Most (if not all of my students) have to work to get by whilst stdying, in Sainsbury's or Asda. e.g.! I am always amazed how they do their work at uni plus their part-time work.
Ok, let's take Central Scotland as a location. I am utterly horrified that people would say you need 60,000 after tax. Frankly, this is totally unattainable in Scotland for most people. I have a fairly decent job at university (after 3 degrees) and my husband has a what I thought was reasonably well paid job in It (lots of education, too) an we are nowhere near this money. I think this just shows the discrepancy between English and Scottish parameters.
I was just interested as a comparison. I know from many of my students that they and the families where they come from have a lot less. Most (if not all of my students) have to work to get by whilst stdying, in Sainsbury's or Asda. e.g.! I am always amazed how they do their work at uni plus their part-time work.
Post edited at 20:35
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In reply to Heike:
My friend and I were thinking about this a while ago and found something (don't remember the source I'm afraid) that said the average person in the UK spends 1.5 million squids in their lifetime.
My friend and I were thinking about this a while ago and found something (don't remember the source I'm afraid) that said the average person in the UK spends 1.5 million squids in their lifetime.
In reply to Heike:
You added the after tax but, but of course it is totally meaningless. It is dependant on so many things. I think our household income is around double the national average, this makes us pretty comfortable, in a nice house in an expensive part of a cheaper part of the country. I suspect I would feel dirt poor if I lived in London.
You added the after tax but, but of course it is totally meaningless. It is dependant on so many things. I think our household income is around double the national average, this makes us pretty comfortable, in a nice house in an expensive part of a cheaper part of the country. I suspect I would feel dirt poor if I lived in London.
In reply to Heike:
I'd say £60k before tax is enough to live quite happily on. As a singleton until recently earning half that, paying for a house on my own, with all the bills (that wouldn't change much of there were another 1+child), and putting a tidy sum in a pension every month I was still able to save a reasonable amount every month.
I think the issue is the idea of what's comfortable. I know people earning a lot more than this that spend every penny every month.
I'd say £60k before tax is enough to live quite happily on. As a singleton until recently earning half that, paying for a house on my own, with all the bills (that wouldn't change much of there were another 1+child), and putting a tidy sum in a pension every month I was still able to save a reasonable amount every month.
I think the issue is the idea of what's comfortable. I know people earning a lot more than this that spend every penny every month.
In reply to Heike:
Between us 2 working adults and 2 kids, £40k gross out of three jobs.
£130k mortgage in the north west. £600 car, just the one, no foreign holidays or any this summer. No meals or nights out. One pair of jeans, one pair of casual shoes and counting every penny.
Not comfortable at all
Between us 2 working adults and 2 kids, £40k gross out of three jobs.
£130k mortgage in the north west. £600 car, just the one, no foreign holidays or any this summer. No meals or nights out. One pair of jeans, one pair of casual shoes and counting every penny.
Not comfortable at all
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In reply to Dave the Rave:
Hahaha, that's a bit more like it! I hope you are happy , though Meals out are very overrated anyways!!!
Hahaha, that's a bit more like it! I hope you are happy , though Meals out are very overrated anyways!!!
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In reply to Heike:
Yeah. I reckon we're the average family. Fortunately, I don't like flying ( no passports) or eating out. It's overated and we can feed ourselves for 5 nights on the cost of a Pizza Hut trip. The car is the car and starts most times. Kids are embarrassed by it but it does the job and passes plenty of newer cars waiting for a tow
> Hahaha, that's a bit more like it! I hope you are happy , though Meals out are very overrated anyways!!!
Yeah. I reckon we're the average family. Fortunately, I don't like flying ( no passports) or eating out. It's overated and we can feed ourselves for 5 nights on the cost of a Pizza Hut trip. The car is the car and starts most times. Kids are embarrassed by it but it does the job and passes plenty of newer cars waiting for a tow
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In reply to Heike:
I think England vs Scotland misses the point here, both are too broad - go to the North East of England and the answer will be very different to that in the leafier parts of Glasgow.
Depending on how you have done your three degrees you probably have several years of very low incomes behind you which does put you on the backfoot, especially in the Universitys where progression in salary is often slow - One reason I did not go down the phd route after doing what was in effect my second degree.
My wife and I both work in the University sector in Bristol and our combined income post tax is close to Summo's figure now - but we have much less disposable income than when we lived in North Wales with a much lower combined income.
> Ok, let's take Central Scotland as a location. I am utterly horrified that people would say you need 60,000 after tax. Frankly, this is totally unattainable in Scotland for most people. I have a fairly decent job at university (after 3 degrees) and my husband has a what I thought was reasonably well paid job in It (lots of education, too) an we are nowhere near this money. I think this just shows the discrepancy between English and Scottish parameters.
I think England vs Scotland misses the point here, both are too broad - go to the North East of England and the answer will be very different to that in the leafier parts of Glasgow.
Depending on how you have done your three degrees you probably have several years of very low incomes behind you which does put you on the backfoot, especially in the Universitys where progression in salary is often slow - One reason I did not go down the phd route after doing what was in effect my second degree.
My wife and I both work in the University sector in Bristol and our combined income post tax is close to Summo's figure now - but we have much less disposable income than when we lived in North Wales with a much lower combined income.
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In reply to Heike:
I am always amazed how they do their work at uni plus their part-time work.
I did my degree at Stirling and the work load only involved 3 hours per week, going up to 4 by the 4th year. And that was only for 6 months of the year! Admittedly, I was a mature student and didn't drink much beer.
Ended up feeling that being a University student is good training for a life of leisure.
I am always amazed how they do their work at uni plus their part-time work.
I did my degree at Stirling and the work load only involved 3 hours per week, going up to 4 by the 4th year. And that was only for 6 months of the year! Admittedly, I was a mature student and didn't drink much beer.
Ended up feeling that being a University student is good training for a life of leisure.
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In reply to Heike:
I think this just shows that taking one data point, provided by some random on the internet, with no supporting data, isn't a sensible way of looking at anything...
> I think this just shows the discrepancy between English and Scottish parameters.
I think this just shows that taking one data point, provided by some random on the internet, with no supporting data, isn't a sensible way of looking at anything...
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In reply to alan moore:
No offence, that must have been a long time ago, my first job was at Stirling and ug students had about 12 hrs week teaching time plus directed study time ... I did my Masters at Stirling, too, and we had about 24 hrs teaching time a week plus study time which was a full week's work... (Still managed to go to the Long bar, though!)
No offence, that must have been a long time ago, my first job was at Stirling and ug students had about 12 hrs week teaching time plus directed study time ... I did my Masters at Stirling, too, and we had about 24 hrs teaching time a week plus study time which was a full week's work... (Still managed to go to the Long bar, though!)
Post edited at 21:44
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In reply to Heike:
It's all relative, if I could have my London salary up north, I'd be living a very, very nice lifestyle, as it is I don't do too badly but there's nothing left at the end of the month. I worked out I'd need about half to move back home and do all the things I wanted to do, but that allowing for not having a mortgage/housing costs
It's all relative, if I could have my London salary up north, I'd be living a very, very nice lifestyle, as it is I don't do too badly but there's nothing left at the end of the month. I worked out I'd need about half to move back home and do all the things I wanted to do, but that allowing for not having a mortgage/housing costs
Post edited at 22:10
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In reply to Šljiva:
Sure, it is all relative, quite. I was just wondering ....and amazed. So, anyone got anymore insights on average incomes? Just trying to get an overview.
Sure, it is all relative, quite. I was just wondering ....and amazed. So, anyone got anymore insights on average incomes? Just trying to get an overview.
In reply to Dave the Rave:
"and we can feed ourselves for 5 nights on the cost of a Pizza Hut trip. "
This is where the difference is. I've always though this and I've had people call me a miserable git for this but pizza hut is expensive and nothing special that you can't cook yourself, and the people you see getting massive pizza hut deliveries or sitting in their restaurants are those that look like they can least afford it.
"and we can feed ourselves for 5 nights on the cost of a Pizza Hut trip. "
This is where the difference is. I've always though this and I've had people call me a miserable git for this but pizza hut is expensive and nothing special that you can't cook yourself, and the people you see getting massive pizza hut deliveries or sitting in their restaurants are those that look like they can least afford it.
In reply to Dr.S at work:
"especially in the Universitys where progression in salary is often slow "
Year on year the university sector does OK because most people in my experience get annual grade increments no matter how crap they do their job which works out at a ~3% increase p/a before any annual pay rise (which has been a bit poor TBH) The issues arise when you hit grade boundaries, then you have to do something to jump a boundary, but the pay at this point is quite reasonable.
"especially in the Universitys where progression in salary is often slow "
Year on year the university sector does OK because most people in my experience get annual grade increments no matter how crap they do their job which works out at a ~3% increase p/a before any annual pay rise (which has been a bit poor TBH) The issues arise when you hit grade boundaries, then you have to do something to jump a boundary, but the pay at this point is quite reasonable.
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In reply to gethin_allen:
What? 3 % increase? at university? Absolutely not. We didn't have one for years and then last year it was one per cent...after strikes.
Anyhow that is off topic...
So, anyone got any other ideas on what is comfortable living to them?
What? 3 % increase? at university? Absolutely not. We didn't have one for years and then last year it was one per cent...after strikes.
Anyhow that is off topic...
So, anyone got any other ideas on what is comfortable living to them?
Post edited at 22:38
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In reply to icnoble:
No. We haven't qualified for a few years.
Ps
Don't want them, don't need them.
> Does your income include any working tax credits?
No. We haven't qualified for a few years.
Ps
Don't want them, don't need them.
Post edited at 23:00
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In reply to Heike:
Heike, you keep asking the question - but you don't define comfortable living. What exactly is it that you define as comfortable? What are you hoping to have in your life that's currently missing?
Heike, you keep asking the question - but you don't define comfortable living. What exactly is it that you define as comfortable? What are you hoping to have in your life that's currently missing?
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In reply to Heike:
In this part of Merseyside most people I know, individually are earning around 25K gross they are living decent lives including having mortgages and many living as singletons or single parent families etc. Those of my friends earning 30K or more are living very comfortably in this area.
I have some friends who have household incomes approaching and exceeding the 60K value mentioned on here. They have a great life. Both bringing in around 2K a month each, less than £600 a month mortgage for a 5 bedroom house, basement with football pitch sized gardens etc, multiple cars, multiple holidays and so on.
In other parts of Merseyside such as Freshfield that 60K household income might not even get you a house on some streets and that is moving less than 10 miles up the road i.e. houses costing up to £12 million etc.
It is highly variable personally I think 50-60K household income in most parts of Northern England will provide a comfortable life
In this part of Merseyside most people I know, individually are earning around 25K gross they are living decent lives including having mortgages and many living as singletons or single parent families etc. Those of my friends earning 30K or more are living very comfortably in this area.
I have some friends who have household incomes approaching and exceeding the 60K value mentioned on here. They have a great life. Both bringing in around 2K a month each, less than £600 a month mortgage for a 5 bedroom house, basement with football pitch sized gardens etc, multiple cars, multiple holidays and so on.
In other parts of Merseyside such as Freshfield that 60K household income might not even get you a house on some streets and that is moving less than 10 miles up the road i.e. houses costing up to £12 million etc.
It is highly variable personally I think 50-60K household income in most parts of Northern England will provide a comfortable life
Post edited at 23:22
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In reply to Martin not maisie:
Nothing is missing. On the contrary. I am happy, I have got a house (with a mortgage though, a van, several holidays a year and don't have to worry about food or even buying climbing gear. I was just amazed by some of the figures quoted of what you need to have a decent live and thought they were totally unrealistic and over the top. I just read some figures today in the BBC business section and was astonished and I thought who is driving this, this is way above the average income? ...so I was just wondering what other people were thinking.
Nothing is missing. On the contrary. I am happy, I have got a house (with a mortgage though, a van, several holidays a year and don't have to worry about food or even buying climbing gear. I was just amazed by some of the figures quoted of what you need to have a decent live and thought they were totally unrealistic and over the top. I just read some figures today in the BBC business section and was astonished and I thought who is driving this, this is way above the average income? ...so I was just wondering what other people were thinking.
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In reply to gethin
I wish! Grade boundary thing is very true though.
> Year on year the university sector does OK because most people in my experience get annual grade increments no matter how crap they do their job which works out at a ~3% increase p/a before any annual pay rise (which has been a bit poor TBH) The issues arise when you hit grade boundaries, then you have to do something to jump a boundary, but the pay at this point is quite reasonable.
I wish! Grade boundary thing is very true though.
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In reply to Andrew Lodge:
Yeah, but slightly different, it was just that I read an article on the BBC today about average living costs which made me shudder...
So, I thought I see what people think...
> Didn't you start a similar thread a while ago?
Yeah, but slightly different, it was just that I read an article on the BBC today about average living costs which made me shudder...
So, I thought I see what people think...
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In reply to Heike:
I don't know if it's having spent too long reading threads on here, but I'm wanting to ask what 'comfortable' is.
I vaguely remember hearing that around 14k was the figure arrived at by people who's job it is to think about these things for a person of 1 to have what was a called a 'decent' standard of living, as they called it.
In Sheffield probably about 30k for a family? A house big enough for a family of 3 can cost approx 140k and still be pretty close to greenery and niceness,
( I guess my own comfortable living wouldn't include designer clothes and more than a couple of posh suits, but it would include eating healthy and maintaining presentable clothing (ie not particularly faded or with holes in), and being able to do fun things like going out and to the mountains in Britain with friends, probably with a holiday abroad every couple of years, and stopping my house from falling apart/doing things to make it nicer. Materialism to do with goods and toys like bicycles and gadgets is something I'm trying to be less tempted by, since there's no end point, and it doesn't make one happy long term-it needs to keep being topped up. It's not maintainable either 'spiritually' or environmentally )
I don't know if it's having spent too long reading threads on here, but I'm wanting to ask what 'comfortable' is.
I vaguely remember hearing that around 14k was the figure arrived at by people who's job it is to think about these things for a person of 1 to have what was a called a 'decent' standard of living, as they called it.
In Sheffield probably about 30k for a family? A house big enough for a family of 3 can cost approx 140k and still be pretty close to greenery and niceness,
( I guess my own comfortable living wouldn't include designer clothes and more than a couple of posh suits, but it would include eating healthy and maintaining presentable clothing (ie not particularly faded or with holes in), and being able to do fun things like going out and to the mountains in Britain with friends, probably with a holiday abroad every couple of years, and stopping my house from falling apart/doing things to make it nicer. Materialism to do with goods and toys like bicycles and gadgets is something I'm trying to be less tempted by, since there's no end point, and it doesn't make one happy long term-it needs to keep being topped up. It's not maintainable either 'spiritually' or environmentally )
Post edited at 00:29
In reply to summo:
What!!!
I live pretty comfortably on a phd stipend (so about 13 grand take home a year). granted no dependants and no mortgage but renting doesn't have to mean 'uncomfortable', and surely a mortgage could be comparable to the rent of a decent 3 bed rental? I see no reason why a family of three outside of the south east couldn't live perfectly comfortably off a household take home of £30-35,000, and could live frugally but not impoverished off of closer to £25,000.
> To be comfortable and think to the future min £60k household,
What!!!
I live pretty comfortably on a phd stipend (so about 13 grand take home a year). granted no dependants and no mortgage but renting doesn't have to mean 'uncomfortable', and surely a mortgage could be comparable to the rent of a decent 3 bed rental? I see no reason why a family of three outside of the south east couldn't live perfectly comfortably off a household take home of £30-35,000, and could live frugally but not impoverished off of closer to £25,000.
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In reply to Webster:
I dare say if you don't have (any trust in) a UK state pension, then 40k to 60k could be fairly accurate, if you're wanting to have a private pension, and/or invest it in property or something like that?
I dare say if you don't have (any trust in) a UK state pension, then 40k to 60k could be fairly accurate, if you're wanting to have a private pension, and/or invest it in property or something like that?
Post edited at 00:20
In reply to Heike:
If you can earn it up north, not a lot. A three bed mid terrace can be yours for £30k-£60k, and yearly utility and council tax bills are ~£1500. So after the house is paid off, which need not take many years for two adults on minimum wage, you need perhaps £5,000 per year to pay all the bills, eat well and budget for house maintenance. You may need that again to run a cheap car and use the busses.
Given the prevalence of charity shops for clothes and shoes and free libraries and copious amounts of countryside, your comfort beyond this minimum earning threshold depends as much - or more - on your approach to life than on your earnings. If another £5,000 of discretionary spending money a year doesn't make you happy and comfortable, would £25,000?
If you can earn it up north, not a lot. A three bed mid terrace can be yours for £30k-£60k, and yearly utility and council tax bills are ~£1500. So after the house is paid off, which need not take many years for two adults on minimum wage, you need perhaps £5,000 per year to pay all the bills, eat well and budget for house maintenance. You may need that again to run a cheap car and use the busses.
Given the prevalence of charity shops for clothes and shoes and free libraries and copious amounts of countryside, your comfort beyond this minimum earning threshold depends as much - or more - on your approach to life than on your earnings. If another £5,000 of discretionary spending money a year doesn't make you happy and comfortable, would £25,000?
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In reply to Heike:
It's a funny thing this "comfortable" life.
I live and work in Surrey, earn around 2.2k after tax (and pension) per month, on my salary I could only raise about 150K via a mortgage when i bought 8 years or so ago. In this area it won't buy you a one bed flat. However I found a shared ownership deal in an out lying village, and bought 55% of a tiny (4mx10m floor area) 2 up 2 down house with a garden not big enough to make 2 parking spaces. I've got a nice cheap mortgage but have to pay £140 rent on the remaining 45%.
I'm not in negative equity (i was for a bit), but I'm probably in a similar situation to when I started, which means I'm a bit stuck in terms of moving up (I'm certainly not comfortable in this little space (especially garden wise and closeness to neighbours) even though it's just me.
And being on my own everything is more expensive with no co-earner/extra pair of hands, and there's not much left at the end of the month, but then I actually live very well. I eat out far too often (possibly as a function of living alone and most food packaged in portions for 2s and 3s) but really that means breakfast and lunch in the staff canteen, a toastie at the climbing wall, etc.
I probably consider myself better than comfortably off. I have lots of things I want (but dont need) expensive bike, climbing/camping gear, SKY TV, a fancy phone, Laptop and a Desktop a workshop, went skiing this year, alpine mtb trips the last few, uk holidays a plenty (in a tent) I have better than average car etc.
Comfortable to me would probably entail living on 500 a month less than i do in this area. I could save a fortune cooking at home and making lunches, planning meals (and everything else) ahead more effectively, down grade the car, drop the TV package and in all honesty I probably wouldn't notice in terms of happiness etc.
The only thing that to me is uncomfortable about my life is the tiny little shoe box I have to live in. I think one of the key things in modern "wealth" or lack of it is age. If I were to have been born 10 years earlier and to have lived an identical life in terms of earnings (adjusting for inflation) I think I would be significantly better off in terms of accommodation than I will be in ten years from now.
The huge rises in house prices in recent decades is in my opinion the second biggest factor in peoples ability to live a comfortable life (second to salary obviously) Of course I bought at a particularly bad time, but I would hate to have not bought and having to try to buy now, and I would hate to think what it'll be like in another 10 years.
It makes you wonder how kids born now will ever afford to buy a house without significant help.
It's a funny thing this "comfortable" life.
I live and work in Surrey, earn around 2.2k after tax (and pension) per month, on my salary I could only raise about 150K via a mortgage when i bought 8 years or so ago. In this area it won't buy you a one bed flat. However I found a shared ownership deal in an out lying village, and bought 55% of a tiny (4mx10m floor area) 2 up 2 down house with a garden not big enough to make 2 parking spaces. I've got a nice cheap mortgage but have to pay £140 rent on the remaining 45%.
I'm not in negative equity (i was for a bit), but I'm probably in a similar situation to when I started, which means I'm a bit stuck in terms of moving up (I'm certainly not comfortable in this little space (especially garden wise and closeness to neighbours) even though it's just me.
And being on my own everything is more expensive with no co-earner/extra pair of hands, and there's not much left at the end of the month, but then I actually live very well. I eat out far too often (possibly as a function of living alone and most food packaged in portions for 2s and 3s) but really that means breakfast and lunch in the staff canteen, a toastie at the climbing wall, etc.
I probably consider myself better than comfortably off. I have lots of things I want (but dont need) expensive bike, climbing/camping gear, SKY TV, a fancy phone, Laptop and a Desktop a workshop, went skiing this year, alpine mtb trips the last few, uk holidays a plenty (in a tent) I have better than average car etc.
Comfortable to me would probably entail living on 500 a month less than i do in this area. I could save a fortune cooking at home and making lunches, planning meals (and everything else) ahead more effectively, down grade the car, drop the TV package and in all honesty I probably wouldn't notice in terms of happiness etc.
The only thing that to me is uncomfortable about my life is the tiny little shoe box I have to live in. I think one of the key things in modern "wealth" or lack of it is age. If I were to have been born 10 years earlier and to have lived an identical life in terms of earnings (adjusting for inflation) I think I would be significantly better off in terms of accommodation than I will be in ten years from now.
The huge rises in house prices in recent decades is in my opinion the second biggest factor in peoples ability to live a comfortable life (second to salary obviously) Of course I bought at a particularly bad time, but I would hate to have not bought and having to try to buy now, and I would hate to think what it'll be like in another 10 years.
It makes you wonder how kids born now will ever afford to buy a house without significant help.
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In reply to balmybaldwin:
There is away but it might involve living in areas and properties that might not appeal.
I bought my 1st house for not much money in a deprived area in 2010 as that was all i could afford at the time I sold it in 2013 for a profit. I then bought a wreck of a property in 2013 and currently have that up for sale expecting a profit even as a quick sale based on the offers so far. I hope with the money I have made to fund a deposit to buy a house to settle in by easter. There are ways just most people dont want to step down several levels to come back up.
> It makes you wonder how kids born now will ever afford to buy a house without significant help.
There is away but it might involve living in areas and properties that might not appeal.
I bought my 1st house for not much money in a deprived area in 2010 as that was all i could afford at the time I sold it in 2013 for a profit. I then bought a wreck of a property in 2013 and currently have that up for sale expecting a profit even as a quick sale based on the offers so far. I hope with the money I have made to fund a deposit to buy a house to settle in by easter. There are ways just most people dont want to step down several levels to come back up.
Post edited at 01:08
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In reply to balmybaldwin:
It is funny isn't it. I'm well paid etc. so not going to get into that debate... but one thing that changed for me when I left the UK was that living in a house was no longer a necessity. I have an apartment, I don't think that when I lived in the UK I ever considered that apartments were an option. Advantages are many - no roof to look after, security, gym, pool, someone else takes out the rubbish etc. and of course cost is lower, meaning that kids can realistically get on the ladder (just).
Thoughts?
LD
> It's a funny thing this "comfortable" life.
> It makes you wonder how kids born now will ever afford to buy a house without significant help.
It is funny isn't it. I'm well paid etc. so not going to get into that debate... but one thing that changed for me when I left the UK was that living in a house was no longer a necessity. I have an apartment, I don't think that when I lived in the UK I ever considered that apartments were an option. Advantages are many - no roof to look after, security, gym, pool, someone else takes out the rubbish etc. and of course cost is lower, meaning that kids can realistically get on the ladder (just).
Thoughts?
LD
In reply to Lurking Dave:
Do you live in a city now? Did you live in a city before? Apartments are very popular in cities in the UK, less so in towns. In part because people like a little outdoor space, but largely because of what is available. Often in towns, especially northern towns, a small terrace is the lowest step on the property ladder, whilst apartments are available, they are often more expensive.
Do you live in a city now? Did you live in a city before? Apartments are very popular in cities in the UK, less so in towns. In part because people like a little outdoor space, but largely because of what is available. Often in towns, especially northern towns, a small terrace is the lowest step on the property ladder, whilst apartments are available, they are often more expensive.
In reply to Heike:
Not being facetious but for a family of three:
A family house in the UK - £400k, approx £2000 per month on mortgage and council tax
Pension payments should be £600 (£1000gross) per month for the income required to sustain a £360k mortgage
Cost of basic living £1500 per month
Running two cars £400 per month
Comfortable would be an additional £1000 per month for holidays, luxuries, gadgets etc
So adding that up... £5500 after tax per month. Depressing, isn't it?
And I can assure you for a family of 5, earning that amount does not make you comfortable.
Not being facetious but for a family of three:
A family house in the UK - £400k, approx £2000 per month on mortgage and council tax
Pension payments should be £600 (£1000gross) per month for the income required to sustain a £360k mortgage
Cost of basic living £1500 per month
Running two cars £400 per month
Comfortable would be an additional £1000 per month for holidays, luxuries, gadgets etc
So adding that up... £5500 after tax per month. Depressing, isn't it?
And I can assure you for a family of 5, earning that amount does not make you comfortable.
Post edited at 08:20
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In reply to Toccata:
That's nonsense. Latest Land Registry figure (July 2015) for average house in the UK is £183k. Even London average is only £488k.
> Not being facetious but for a family of three:
> A family house in the UK - £400k,
That's nonsense. Latest Land Registry figure (July 2015) for average house in the UK is £183k. Even London average is only £488k.
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In reply to gethin_allen:
Thats a bit of an odd thing to say. Getting a permanent post in a University right now nomally requires 3 degrees and a teacher training requirement, usually a couple of years spent as a postdoc and a bit of luck with your research. The majority of staff by contract numbers are on ZHC or part-time contracts or some lower level contract like a postdoc. In pretty much any subject important to the economy the rates of pay for similar age and qualifications lag behind the equivalent roles in the public and private sector. When I started in the mid 80s as an engineer the top of the career grade (promoted but below Prof) pay was the same as an MP and the workload about half of what it is today and the job security was ironclad... as an academic who has loved his job and turned down better paid jobs in industry (even back then) to do it, I just can't recommend it at all to new starters. Being well paid (it is) is pretty irrelevant if the pay and conditions are much better elsewhere.
Thats a bit of an odd thing to say. Getting a permanent post in a University right now nomally requires 3 degrees and a teacher training requirement, usually a couple of years spent as a postdoc and a bit of luck with your research. The majority of staff by contract numbers are on ZHC or part-time contracts or some lower level contract like a postdoc. In pretty much any subject important to the economy the rates of pay for similar age and qualifications lag behind the equivalent roles in the public and private sector. When I started in the mid 80s as an engineer the top of the career grade (promoted but below Prof) pay was the same as an MP and the workload about half of what it is today and the job security was ironclad... as an academic who has loved his job and turned down better paid jobs in industry (even back then) to do it, I just can't recommend it at all to new starters. Being well paid (it is) is pretty irrelevant if the pay and conditions are much better elsewhere.
Post edited at 08:40
In reply to Wiley Coyote:
Not really. Strip out the one and two bedroom flats and houses and you'll find the figure climbs somewhat.
Anyway, 'twas just a general illustration. Living in the UK is very expensive and being 'comfortable' is something fewer and fewer can aspire to.
> That's nonsense. Latest Land Registry figure (July 2015) for average house in the UK is £183k. Even London average is only £488k.
Not really. Strip out the one and two bedroom flats and houses and you'll find the figure climbs somewhat.
Anyway, 'twas just a general illustration. Living in the UK is very expensive and being 'comfortable' is something fewer and fewer can aspire to.
3
1
In reply to Heike:
No - before tax. Lots of households earn that sort of cash. £40k isn't hard to earn in a professional job if you have 10+ years experience. So if person A earns £40k and person B earns £20k that is £60k. Or maybe they earn £30k each - again completely achievable if you work in the professional world.
> Is that 60 k after tax?? Who earns that sort of money.
No - before tax. Lots of households earn that sort of cash. £40k isn't hard to earn in a professional job if you have 10+ years experience. So if person A earns £40k and person B earns £20k that is £60k. Or maybe they earn £30k each - again completely achievable if you work in the professional world.
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In reply to Toccata:
Property is a massive variable, in some areas you might be looking at £400k, others it could be £1m+, but in large parts of the country it will be much, much cheaper. Obviously if you only consider a family home to be 4 bed + and detached the average will be much higher, but many families are very comfortable in smaller terraces and semi-detached.
Property is a massive variable, in some areas you might be looking at £400k, others it could be £1m+, but in large parts of the country it will be much, much cheaper. Obviously if you only consider a family home to be 4 bed + and detached the average will be much higher, but many families are very comfortable in smaller terraces and semi-detached.
In reply to ByEek:
I agree, it must be around upper quartlie for housholds. I dont understand why people feel the need to post such stuff for permanent public viewing when they are so clueless and internet research is so easy.
I agree, it must be around upper quartlie for housholds. I dont understand why people feel the need to post such stuff for permanent public viewing when they are so clueless and internet research is so easy.
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1
In reply to Toccata:
Obviously the average will include some one bed places but also includes the 4/, 5 and 6 bed places too so, as the term implies, averages these out. Surely a family of 3 only needs a two bedroom house unless you consider a spare room, office/study etc are essentials for being 'comfortable'?
Your figure was more than double the Land Registry average figure, which think rather stretches the phrase 'climbs somewhat'.
> Not really. Strip out the one and two bedroom flats and houses and you'll find the figure climbs somewhat.
Obviously the average will include some one bed places but also includes the 4/, 5 and 6 bed places too so, as the term implies, averages these out. Surely a family of 3 only needs a two bedroom house unless you consider a spare room, office/study etc are essentials for being 'comfortable'?
Your figure was more than double the Land Registry average figure, which think rather stretches the phrase 'climbs somewhat'.
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In reply to Heike:
I view "comfortable" with regard to income/outgoings as being when you don't have to actually think about whether you have enough or not to reasonably do what you want. At that point, I figure you are "comfortable".
I view "comfortable" with regard to income/outgoings as being when you don't have to actually think about whether you have enough or not to reasonably do what you want. At that point, I figure you are "comfortable".
In reply to Scomuir:
I'd agree. I'm 'comfortable' in that, while not engaging in profligate spending, I don't have to think about whether I can pay for these flights, or that organic food or whether I can put fuel in my car for a trip to the Peak etc. I think 'comfortable' is covering your 'needs', and indulging your 'wants' to whichever degree your conscience allows.
I'd agree. I'm 'comfortable' in that, while not engaging in profligate spending, I don't have to think about whether I can pay for these flights, or that organic food or whether I can put fuel in my car for a trip to the Peak etc. I think 'comfortable' is covering your 'needs', and indulging your 'wants' to whichever degree your conscience allows.
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In reply to Heike:
Bit of an open ended question.Is comfortable living really a comfortable lifestyle.
I know lost of people who have a comfortable living ( that is what they tell me) and earn considerably less then what I consider to be a reasonable amount.
I am always astounded by how many people actually live in London on a low wage and yet seem to me to earn next to nothing.
Bit of an open ended question.Is comfortable living really a comfortable lifestyle.
I know lost of people who have a comfortable living ( that is what they tell me) and earn considerably less then what I consider to be a reasonable amount.
I am always astounded by how many people actually live in London on a low wage and yet seem to me to earn next to nothing.
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In reply to Toccata:
I've not checked your assumptions on income from pension contributions of £1000 gross per month, but surely part of pension planning is not having to service a large mortgage after you retire.
> Pension payments should be £600 (£1000gross) per month for the income required to sustain a £360k mortgage
I've not checked your assumptions on income from pension contributions of £1000 gross per month, but surely part of pension planning is not having to service a large mortgage after you retire.
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In reply to Heike:
I think the big mistake here is asking for salary figure, your salery is a really poor indication of how "wealthy" a person is.
What you should be asking is: "How much household disposable income do I need to have in order to live comfortably"
Someone living in London on £50k a year can, in many ways, be worse off then someone earning £30k a year up in the north of England. The guy in the north probably owns his own home with, a small mortgage, isn't in the higher rate tax band, doesn't have to pay a fortune to commute to work and has a little to spare each month to save and treat himself.
So to anwser your question, assuming you don't have massively expensive tastes, I'd say you want to be able to live without having to worry about day to day spending, cover all your outgoing and enjoy a few luxuries and still have £500'ish each a left over every month. (So a £1000 per couple)
How much you need to earn to make that happen will vary on circumstances.
I think the big mistake here is asking for salary figure, your salery is a really poor indication of how "wealthy" a person is.
What you should be asking is: "How much household disposable income do I need to have in order to live comfortably"
Someone living in London on £50k a year can, in many ways, be worse off then someone earning £30k a year up in the north of England. The guy in the north probably owns his own home with, a small mortgage, isn't in the higher rate tax band, doesn't have to pay a fortune to commute to work and has a little to spare each month to save and treat himself.
So to anwser your question, assuming you don't have massively expensive tastes, I'd say you want to be able to live without having to worry about day to day spending, cover all your outgoing and enjoy a few luxuries and still have £500'ish each a left over every month. (So a £1000 per couple)
How much you need to earn to make that happen will vary on circumstances.
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
Agreed. I have never really understood the draw of London either.
> Someone living in London on £50k a year can, in many ways, be worse off then someone earning £30k a year up in the north of England. The guy in the north probably owns his own home with, a small mortgage, isn't in the higher rate tax band, doesn't have to pay a fortune to commute to work and has a little to spare each month to save and treat himself.
Agreed. I have never really understood the draw of London either.
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In reply to Offwidth:
No need to tell me about the requirements of academia.
Maybe it's just biosciences (where my experience is) but industry jobs are quite few and far between and don't pay massively better that those in universities and don't have the same levels of support and benefits (things like having a 35+day/year holiday allowance + selected days where the university closes, the USS pension scheme is still pretty reasonable).
I have friends who are chemists and engineers and I'd agree with you there, there does seem to be a greater difference in these sectors.
And yes, post doc contracts aren't great.
No need to tell me about the requirements of academia.
Maybe it's just biosciences (where my experience is) but industry jobs are quite few and far between and don't pay massively better that those in universities and don't have the same levels of support and benefits (things like having a 35+day/year holiday allowance + selected days where the university closes, the USS pension scheme is still pretty reasonable).
I have friends who are chemists and engineers and I'd agree with you there, there does seem to be a greater difference in these sectors.
And yes, post doc contracts aren't great.
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In reply to ByEek:
I guess the draw of London is that there are lots of jobs that pay 4 to 5 times what most on here would think is a fantastic salary.
I guess the draw of London is that there are lots of jobs that pay 4 to 5 times what most on here would think is a fantastic salary.
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In reply to gethin_allen:
Well our bioscience staff (even ignoring our biomedicine staff), have a different view on the comparative difficulty of securing a permanent post and levels of work required for the benefits. They are well informed as their graduates keep us up-to-date... pay freezes, pension changes, decreased job security, increased workloads, etc, have changed the balance in the last few years according to them and the direction of travel for the next few years is the same. We are on TPS but USS its worth less for higher payments for new entrants cf those who have been on the scheme for a long time (and is worse than TPS in the post 92's)... great way to encourage future recruitment to our best institutions eh?.
Well our bioscience staff (even ignoring our biomedicine staff), have a different view on the comparative difficulty of securing a permanent post and levels of work required for the benefits. They are well informed as their graduates keep us up-to-date... pay freezes, pension changes, decreased job security, increased workloads, etc, have changed the balance in the last few years according to them and the direction of travel for the next few years is the same. We are on TPS but USS its worth less for higher payments for new entrants cf those who have been on the scheme for a long time (and is worse than TPS in the post 92's)... great way to encourage future recruitment to our best institutions eh?.
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In reply to gethin_allen:
I'm coming to the end of a Biochemistry/computer science PhD and postdocs seem a terrible option, 2 or 3 year contracts here and there for the forseeable future. Which is a shame as the lifestyle would be great.
I'm coming to the end of a Biochemistry/computer science PhD and postdocs seem a terrible option, 2 or 3 year contracts here and there for the forseeable future. Which is a shame as the lifestyle would be great.
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
But then equally, you see first time buyers on Location, Location, Location with a budget of £500k (????) to spend on their first place to live... which ends up being a basement one bed flat with no outdoor space! How a laugh.
> I guess the draw of London is that there are lots of jobs that pay 4 to 5 times what most on here would think is a fantastic salary.
But then equally, you see first time buyers on Location, Location, Location with a budget of £500k (????) to spend on their first place to live... which ends up being a basement one bed flat with no outdoor space! How a laugh.
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
I guess so, I wonder what percentage of London jobs pay over £200k.
> I guess the draw of London is that there are lots of jobs that pay 4 to 5 times what most on here would think is a fantastic salary.
I guess so, I wonder what percentage of London jobs pay over £200k.
In reply to Šljiva:
Unless it all goes tits up before then.
> Which you can then sell for 600k a couple of years later!
Unless it all goes tits up before then.
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In reply to ByEek:
Agreed. Every job I've been offered in London has always seemed to be three times the salary for a third of the lifestyle. Turning them down has always been a no brainer for me.
> Agreed. I have never really understood the draw of London either.
Agreed. Every job I've been offered in London has always seemed to be three times the salary for a third of the lifestyle. Turning them down has always been a no brainer for me.
In reply to Scomuir:
Surely that depends as much on what you want to do as what you earn? It's all about the balance. Earn more or want less, both are equally valid ways of being happy with their own pros and cons, and these threads invariably seem to focus on the incoming side of the balance. This is odd as I know people happy and unhappy on both sides of the earnings fence.
> I view "comfortable" with regard to income/outgoings as being when you don't have to actually think about whether you have enough or not to reasonably do what you want. At that point, I figure you are "comfortable".
Surely that depends as much on what you want to do as what you earn? It's all about the balance. Earn more or want less, both are equally valid ways of being happy with their own pros and cons, and these threads invariably seem to focus on the incoming side of the balance. This is odd as I know people happy and unhappy on both sides of the earnings fence.
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In reply to Toccata:
No wonder people are unsatisfied with their lives if they aspire to that list in order to be comfortable.
Live in a comfortable 3 bed cottage in a stunning location (£145k)
I contribute to an NHS pension (9.3%), and own a buy-to-let currently (my last house that I couldn't sell), other half has savings/stocks and shares.
Running 2 cars, mine is 19 years old (and just cost nothing to go through an MOT...result!!) and my partners is only 10 years and cost £500 to buy.
Holidays cost about £600 for a week between us whenever we go abroad (e.g self catering in spain) so depends how many trips a year what that adds up to.
Gadgets...new phone bought outright every few years, mines a budget smart phone so £140, then cheap sim only contract.
Clothes as we need them, but not designer, and some second hand.
Eat well
Whatever climbing gear we need/ want.
Me and my partner earn approx. £52k between us, and are both currently looking at ways to drop our hours to part-time, as we can comfortably live off less than we currently do, and there is more to living comfortably than money.
> A family house in the UK - £400k, approx £2000 per month on mortgage and council tax
> Pension payments should be £600 (£1000gross) per month for the income required to sustain a £360k mortgage
> Cost of basic living £1500 per month
> Running two cars £400 per month
> Comfortable would be an additional £1000 per month for holidays, luxuries, gadgets etc
No wonder people are unsatisfied with their lives if they aspire to that list in order to be comfortable.
Live in a comfortable 3 bed cottage in a stunning location (£145k)
I contribute to an NHS pension (9.3%), and own a buy-to-let currently (my last house that I couldn't sell), other half has savings/stocks and shares.
Running 2 cars, mine is 19 years old (and just cost nothing to go through an MOT...result!!) and my partners is only 10 years and cost £500 to buy.
Holidays cost about £600 for a week between us whenever we go abroad (e.g self catering in spain) so depends how many trips a year what that adds up to.
Gadgets...new phone bought outright every few years, mines a budget smart phone so £140, then cheap sim only contract.
Clothes as we need them, but not designer, and some second hand.
Eat well
Whatever climbing gear we need/ want.
Me and my partner earn approx. £52k between us, and are both currently looking at ways to drop our hours to part-time, as we can comfortably live off less than we currently do, and there is more to living comfortably than money.
4
In reply to Šljiva:
Yep - then you get to buy a one bed flat on the ground floor with 4m^2 of outdoor space!
We have friends who sold their basement flat in London, moved to Manchester and are now living in a large Victorian 5 bed town house with gigantic garden!
> Which you can then sell for 600k a couple of years later!
Yep - then you get to buy a one bed flat on the ground floor with 4m^2 of outdoor space!
We have friends who sold their basement flat in London, moved to Manchester and are now living in a large Victorian 5 bed town house with gigantic garden!
In reply to The New NickB:
According to this article from the Mail in 2013
18,000 Brits earn more than £1m a year
5,000 earn between £500k - £1m
31,000 earn between £200k - £500k
7,000 earn £150k - £200k (that doesn't make much sense to me...would have thought the number would keep increasing as the salaries went down)
I would hazard a guess that the bulk of those would be in London...but don't know.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2334751/Super-rich-getting-richer-N...
According to this article from the Mail in 2013
18,000 Brits earn more than £1m a year
5,000 earn between £500k - £1m
31,000 earn between £200k - £500k
7,000 earn £150k - £200k (that doesn't make much sense to me...would have thought the number would keep increasing as the salaries went down)
I would hazard a guess that the bulk of those would be in London...but don't know.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2334751/Super-rich-getting-richer-N...
In reply to wintertree:
That's exactly my point though, which is what I said "income/outgoings". You can earn £25k or £250k, and depending upon your outlook and circumstance, could be "comfortable" on either, or not.
> Surely that depends as much on what you want to do as what you earn? It's all about the balance. Earn more or want less, both are equally valid ways of being happy with their own pros and cons, and these threads invariably seem to focus on the incoming side of the balance. This is odd as I know people happy and unhappy on both sides of the earnings fence.
That's exactly my point though, which is what I said "income/outgoings". You can earn £25k or £250k, and depending upon your outlook and circumstance, could be "comfortable" on either, or not.
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
There's a lot more to it than that. As someone else pointed out, you can probably have more disposable income not living in London but very few places in the UK offer such wide career opportunities and from my own personal experience, living there from my mid 20s to mid 30s, working in digital marketing, it was fantastic. The salaries were higher (but not really enough to compensate for the extra cost of living) than other parts of the country but there was a great choice of employers and an amazing sense of drive and innovation that I didn't experience as much in other cities I've worked in. Easy access to world class sporting and music/cultural events, and the fact that large numbers of my friends all eventually gravitated there made it a great place to live.
However its not popular on here to suggest that people living in London are anything other than constantly miserable, arrogant, and suffering in an overpriced, polluted hellhole. However if you go there with the right atittitude, and embrace what it has to offer there are few places like it.
To the wider discussion, we moved away a few years ago to rural France and our salaries have pretty much stayed the same. We work from home unless there's business travel required in our respective jobs which is expensable anyway, so the biggest difference I've seen is how much money you spend just going to work every day, getting coffees and lunch and after work drinks - not doing that not saves me a lot of money. Obviously those things are all individual choices but even being frugal that soon eats into your disposable income.
> I guess the draw of London is that there are lots of jobs that pay 4 to 5 times what most on here would think is a fantastic salary.
There's a lot more to it than that. As someone else pointed out, you can probably have more disposable income not living in London but very few places in the UK offer such wide career opportunities and from my own personal experience, living there from my mid 20s to mid 30s, working in digital marketing, it was fantastic. The salaries were higher (but not really enough to compensate for the extra cost of living) than other parts of the country but there was a great choice of employers and an amazing sense of drive and innovation that I didn't experience as much in other cities I've worked in. Easy access to world class sporting and music/cultural events, and the fact that large numbers of my friends all eventually gravitated there made it a great place to live.
However its not popular on here to suggest that people living in London are anything other than constantly miserable, arrogant, and suffering in an overpriced, polluted hellhole. However if you go there with the right atittitude, and embrace what it has to offer there are few places like it.
To the wider discussion, we moved away a few years ago to rural France and our salaries have pretty much stayed the same. We work from home unless there's business travel required in our respective jobs which is expensable anyway, so the biggest difference I've seen is how much money you spend just going to work every day, getting coffees and lunch and after work drinks - not doing that not saves me a lot of money. Obviously those things are all individual choices but even being frugal that soon eats into your disposable income.
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In reply to yorkshireman:
I know a couple who are doing very well and are very happily living on London, and would agree with everything you say about work opportunities. All that said, when n central London for the weekend I couldn't shake the feeling of there being 'something on my chest' or of the being a difference in air quality compared to where my home is in Sheffield within sight of fields from the top floor, I read somewhere that breathing in the air at certain points in London for a certain number of hours can be like smoking 20 cigarettes.
But I do like the buzz of London and of there being countless things to do. I guess both things are true, that the air is really crap in places and it is an exciting and interesting city.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/londons-air-as-bad-as-smoking-6959600.html
Edit: Perhaps it's because I'm an ex smoker, but this gives me the heebie jeebies on behalf of my London friends.
> There's a lot more to it than that. As someone else pointed out, you can probably have more disposable income not living in London but very few places in the UK offer such wide career opportunities and from my own personal experience, living there from my mid 20s to mid 30s, working in digital marketing, it was fantastic. The salaries were higher (but not really enough to compensate for the extra cost of living) than other parts of the country but there was a great choice of employers and an amazing sense of drive and innovation that I didn't experience as much in other cities I've worked in. Easy access to world class sporting and music/cultural events, and the fact that large numbers of my friends all eventually gravitated there made it a great place to live.
> However its not popular on here to suggest that people living in London are anything other than constantly miserable, arrogant, and suffering in an overpriced, polluted hellhole. However if you go there with the right atittitude, and embrace what it has to offer there are few places like it.
I know a couple who are doing very well and are very happily living on London, and would agree with everything you say about work opportunities. All that said, when n central London for the weekend I couldn't shake the feeling of there being 'something on my chest' or of the being a difference in air quality compared to where my home is in Sheffield within sight of fields from the top floor, I read somewhere that breathing in the air at certain points in London for a certain number of hours can be like smoking 20 cigarettes.
But I do like the buzz of London and of there being countless things to do. I guess both things are true, that the air is really crap in places and it is an exciting and interesting city.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/londons-air-as-bad-as-smoking-6959600.html
Edit: Perhaps it's because I'm an ex smoker, but this gives me the heebie jeebies on behalf of my London friends.
Post edited at 18:29
In reply to Heike:
Utter rubbish how can you turn that into a Scotland v England comparrison?
I own a house in the North east of England, ive been in the forces for 23 years and earn what i thought was a comfortable wage until i was posted back to my Battalion in the south east, nursery bills alone doubled!
Its a north south divide, northern england get no more concideration from Westminster than scotland does!!
Utter rubbish how can you turn that into a Scotland v England comparrison?
I own a house in the North east of England, ive been in the forces for 23 years and earn what i thought was a comfortable wage until i was posted back to my Battalion in the south east, nursery bills alone doubled!
Its a north south divide, northern england get no more concideration from Westminster than scotland does!!
Post edited at 08:43
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