UKC

Before you start climbing and letting your new second figure it out:

How to sling a 120 sling around your body (the amount of times I've seen it wrapped 3 times around a karabiner one handed to a gear loop only to slide off to the deck is astounding) and also my fault for not teaching them.

How to clip the QD karabiner that the gear is clipped in onto a gear loop (rather than the opposite end leading to a 1metre extended 3.5 friend scrapping harshly all the way up. Again, my fault.

How to use a cams triggers for getting it out. Everyone's rationalè goes awol first time on rock and just pulling things whilst trying to hang on is expected. Again, my fault. Get the ab line out boys!

Any others? As I'm still learning.

In reply to zimpara:

How to clip gear into an actual gear loop rather than a leg loop.

In reply to zimpara:

Most important one, a beginner is only as stupid as the person teaching him...

In reply to zimpara:

How to calmly test if the wire will come out with a gentle upwards pull, and then calmly use the nut key to take it out if otherwise - as opposed to vigorously tugging on it if it was excalibur.

How to properly clean your shoes - you will slip if you have muddy/wet shoes, and you won't trust your smears because you _can't_ trust wet smears.

Rock terminology. Once I had a second and I asked if they'd "gone around the arete and got your foot in the horizontal break?" but they didn't know what either was. Eventually settled for "gone round the corner and found the horizontal crack" - which in their head became "FIND A CRACK!! AAHHHHH!!! HERE'S A CRACK!!! WHAT DO I DO WITH THE CRACK". Ended up lowering them off.

In reply to FactorXXX:


I'd agree with this completely. In the early stages of our courtship, when I was still naïve enough to imagine my future wife would enjoy a day at the wall watching me be awesome, I took her climbing at the local wall. Due to my awful instruction she dropped me from near the top of the wall. Luckily, I the only thing damaged was my pride. I asked her why she let go of the rope and she replied, "It hurt my hands!"

Not as much as it hurt my arse.

Trying my best not to look embarrassed, I coiled the rope, assured her I was fine and we left.

In reply to zimpara:

Explain the meaning of expressions like "smear", "toe, foot, finger, hand Jam", "undercut hold", "chimney", "Harrison's move", "side pull", "mantleshelf", "layback", "traverse" etc where appropriate and before they start.

In reply to FactorXXX:


Would agree, many mistakes are down to poor or missing instruction.

In reply to zimpara:





Don't climb up past the runners. Take them out.

If climbing with novices - take nothing for granted.

In reply to zimpara:

Not to climb with stupid instructors?

In reply to zimpara:

'stupid beginners' seems unnecessarily offensive...

In reply to Trangia:


"Harrison's move" What's that when it's about?

In reply to zimpara:

Closest pub to the crag where you can get a good pint (and possibly pushing it these days but a good pie)?

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Agreed on that one.
Some funny stuff though! I wish I had remembered don't climb up past the runner. Again, my fault... Dammit!

In reply to zimpara:

What about:

Don't forget your approach shoes? First time I went climbing outdoors I left work in my work shoes and put my climbing shoes in my bag (as you do indoors) - got to the approach path and realised I'll get my nice leather shoes muddy!

In reply to Sean Kelly:


I second that. Wot?

In reply to zimpara:

Like others have said, a beginner is only as 'stupid' as the instructor s/he is with. I remember my uncle wanting to go climbing with me and he was happy to belay me, I did my first 4 E2's with him and in that whole time I hadn't explained what 'TAKE' meant, so when I got to E2 #5 and was wrecked and needed a rest I yelled TAKE and he had no idea, you can imagine my panic saying just to hold the rope down tight (He did know how to take, just not that's what the word meant). I felt pretty silly but it illustrates the point perfectly.

In reply to Andy Say:


Too true. We once had a beginner in the middle of the rope. As he set off I said: 'Don't bother with the runners I'll get them' and nipped round the corner for a pee.' I could hear him asking for slack and thought he must be struggling. When I went back he was about 70ft up with the rope going down from the belayer (who could not see him), through a runner at 15ft and back up to the novice. I yelled at him not to move and frantically soloed up unclipping the runners as quickly as I could.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

It's a common move on Southern Sandstone, a sort of mixture between a lay back and a mantleshelf. Used to move from one horizontal break to the next where there are no intermediate holds. First used at Harrison's in the 1920s.

If you know Harrison's the middle move on Niblic 5b is a classic Harrison's move.

I'm sure it's not unique to SS, but that was where the expression was coined

P6 of the Introduction of the 1956 "South-East England guide book (if you can get a copy!) " Another move said to be peculiar to these outcrops, for which the name 'Harrison's move' has been suggested, involves stepping up from one ledge to another by pulling laterally on a vertical crack above with one hand and pressing up on the upper ledge with the other hand. The move is frequently used on the harder routes."

In reply to zimpara:
I would not climb with someone who is actually stupid. Beginners are just inexperienced. At least this thread title didn't have a swear word in it, which is an improvement from yesterday...

In reply to climbwhenready:
"> "Harrison's move" What's that when it's about?

I second that. Wot? "

Never played Mornington Crescent?

In reply to zimpara:

Just noticed this topic , so of course, given my earlier post..........: ::fanfare::

"Teach them how to remove cams".

Stable door, horse, bolted, blah blah

nite all.

In reply to zimpara:

Don't say "take some slack"

In reply to zimpara:


So you've climbed with the beginner multiple times in which they have repeated the mistake multiple times and never thought to teach them...

In reply to Fat Bumbly2:


I have played Mornington Crescent many times, but I have always backed of whenever 'Harrison's' has been invoked - unless you're almost professional, getting back onto the circle or district lines can be impossible.

In reply to zimpara:

Here's an alpine story from an instructor I know
"we rock up to the start of an alpine rock route in Chamonix alongside 2 French climbers. As is common in the alps, multiple crews climb the same route. The French lead sets off then Norm leading our rope on that pitch also sets off. The second of the French rope sets off and leaves me standing on the ground. Then my rope goes tight and I start. I don't come to any protection at all. No pegs clipped, no trad gear, nothing. I get to Norm and say, Christ, you soloed that. He says, No I f*** didn't. French bloke's been told in French "takez vous out toot le protectionne" - consequently he turns up and having stripped all the gear right behind Norm who sees the lot on the French second's rack.
Moral - never assume competence of French, German, Swiss or anyone in the Alps because some of them are winging it"

In reply to zimpara:

Years ago 2 of us arrived at Shepherds to do Little Cham and waited while another pair already there started up it. The leader disappeared rapidly and very quickly called for his mate to follow. At this point the second called across to us plaintively and asked if we could check that he had tied himself on correctly. How fortunate the leader had chosen a busy route on a busy crag; certain to be someone passing by who could check such minor details.

In reply to Ann S:


I was on little tryfan, my wife's first lead... a father and daughter pair were also on the crag, father led, made belay, etc, etc.

"I'm safe"
"You're off belay"

.... time passes ....

....

... quite a lot of time ....

"Have you tied in?"
"No, do I need to?"
"Yes."
"Lower the rope back down again, then."

In reply to zimpara:

Most important of all - the student buys the beer.

In reply to zimpara:

" sitting on top of a big sea cliff amphitheatre on Skye watching a pair climb opposite. Strange acoustics. We can hear them but they can't hear each other properly. Second starts and after a while shouts "take in the slack"... a big loop in the rope forms. Second shouts (more insistently) . . . Take in the SLAAACK. An even bigger loop forms. Hero bloke (in rock shoes) jumps up and races around the top - hastens down the grass slope above the leaders belay stake . . slips on his arse and goes rolling down the slope and luckily collides with the belayer who stops him progressing over the drop.

Take in would have done nicely
Grass slopes in rock shoes are slippy
Don't chip in unless you are sure if making a positive contribution

In reply to climbwhenready:

Must have been Levi Tait and daughter out for a bit of exercise.

In reply to Ron Rees Davies:


Funnily enough, in the current edition of Mornington Monthly, Sikorsky has nailed it: use a Reverse Drop Knee*, which automatically deposits you at Hyde Park - from where the way should be clear.

(*Standard Hemp Rules apply, unless The Downfall's in)



It's not just beginners: couple of years ago at Sennen, some young hotshot was trying that nasty little E6 left of Doorpost, where the crux is definitely in groundfall territory. What you really need is a mobile belayer, waiting to run; unfortunately, the second was safely tied in at the base, as specified in every 1950s instruction manual. When we tried to gently point out the potential problem, we got a mouthful of bluster and abuse. Everybody stopped to watch.

(Un)fortunately, his mate didn't actually get high enough to place any gear. We weren't convinced they even knew which route they were on....

In reply to zimpara:

I raise my glass to my climbing partners, who have all explained things patiently and have never called me stupid (even when I was being). It is so easy for the technically proficient to forget how utterly unobvious is so much of what they know; and there is the additional factor that the novice may well be scared, which does not assist one's ability to learn.

In reply to zimpara:

I addressed some of these concerns---for an audience of gym and sport climbers trying to get into multipitch trad climbing---in a post on Mountain Project. See http://www.mountainproject.com/v/how-to-get-asked-out-on-a-second-date/1102... and the subsequent kerfluffle if interested.

In reply to Trangia:

I wouldn't say any of those moves are good to know for a beginner. They simply won't have the ability of using them, or even understanding what you mean.
Just take them up very easy routes until they get the feeling for it?

In reply to rgold:

Interesting post but it does make it seem terribly complicated. Good that you stipulate solid belaying ability but one thing that never seems to get mentioned is the ability to belay both left- and right-handed. On a constricted stance you probably won't get a choice.

In reply to zimpara:

The classic one is when they leave all your gear in, believing it to be in-situ. Or alternately, when they can't get something out (and there's no plan to ab for it) they leave the quickdraw as well!

In reply to zimpara:

Assume you have no intention of ever being an instructor?

In reply to rgold:

The article seemed to be very specific to the way you like to do things, and not every leader is the same. You are climbing as a team and it's best to work out a system between you.

I haven't ever used a PAS (I had to google to find out what it is), mainly just use slings, screwgates and quickdraws depending on what is required.

Of course it's all good thoughts, but I don't believe everyone climbs the same way...

In reply to zimpara&rgold> God that all seems complicated. Start off leading trad at something short, not too steep and where you can see them alll the way and save all the lectures and faff for later.

My advice for a stupid novice is to find a leader who knows his asre from his elbow, If he doesn't keep it simple and starts off by rambling on about fall factors and the strengh of nut A compared to sling B prepare for a grim afternoon

In reply to zimpara:

When you take the rope out the belay device pull a bight of rope out from under the device and unclip it from your HMS, rather than taking the rope and belay devices wire out of the carabiner. Also when unclipping device/biner from your belay loop make sure the device is hanging at the bottom. I've told a beginner this and then watched them fumble and drop their belay device down the crag. It's really easy to be lazy and get out the habit but you want to do this every time, otherwise when you're tired and 10 pitches off the deck you will be saying goodbye belay device.

Also learn some knots to rappel/belay with sans-device for when you do drop it.

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

It's a mystery to me how folk manage to do that. I've never dropped a belay device in 12 years of climbing! No doubt the day will come...

In reply to zimpara:

dont climb with an audience

In reply to zimpara:

Start by assuring them they are not stupid and that any question is a good one. The last thing you want to do with a beginner is make them feel stupid and stop them asking questions. There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers.

In reply to Orgsm:


best to keep quiet and let people think you are stupid,than ask a stupid question and prove they are right.

In reply to mark s:

If they are stupid,then they can NEVER be taught. The only way to find out is to try to teach them.
You might learn a thing or two yourself,in the process.

How to roll a joint on a hanging belay one handed without spilling my beer....

In reply to zimpara:

I know I've made my fair share of howlers as a novice, such as when I untied from belay on my first multi-pitch before leader had taken in the slack, but have fortunately lived to tell the tale.

From that experience alone, I'd say that the best thing to do if they've got something wrong is to calmly explain what and why and correct it, rather than panicking. By all means clip them on first if you need to!

Everybody starts out with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience - the trick is to fill the bag of experience before the bag of luck runs out

I've even made a hash of teaching at times, notably attempting to demonstrate good double rope technique and then having to untie from one of them due to rope drag!

In reply to Morty:

"she let go of the rope and she replied, "It hurt my hands!"

Same thing happened to me when showed my partner what it would be like to hold a fall. I landed in a thicket of stinging nettles at Penmaen Head. Luckily only from a few meters up.

In reply to zimpara:

Not just beginners, classic lines from the crag:

A lead climber shouting "how much rope is there left?" and his second replying "climbing" as indeed he already was.

A child’s perceptiveness at the top of a climb in answering when asked "where have you come from then?" the child with dead straight face replied "the bottom".

Having numerous club members standing in Ogwen car park and being met with "well you said bring a helmet and harness you never said bring a rope!" is a particular favourite.

In reply to starbug:

Second to unhelpful and smug leader, just as they reach the crux : "how the f* do you climb this?"

Leader to struggling second, on point of taking wing : "Upwards is best".