UKC

Beeston TorThe Thorn (HVS 5a)

Amazing route. Climbed it yesterday, plenty of adventure, exposure etc... but the amount of tat on the route, three old pegs, bundles of tat on threads, two chains. How can people say this is ethically better and less visually obtrusive than 3 staples? It's just bloody ridiculous.

The pegs are in good condition, so why three? A single good bolt will be less visually scarring and just as safe, if not safer.

I understand it's super classic, but c'mon really, the amount of rubbish sticking out that route and the adjacent lines (we abbed from the tree, more un-needed tat) is ridiculous. For those of you who will say "Then why not cut it, and tidy it up, I would've if i'd had a knife).

Also the paths are getting overgrown, falling down, the routes are dirty etc... It'd be a shame to lose this classic to the undergrowth.

P.S: I won't be engaging in arguments about bolts etc... just simply stating how ridiculous our ethics can be. Also, I won't be going up with a drill so don't get touchy.

In reply to Jackwd:
The ethics with pegs etc is fine.

However what is obviously needed is somebody to actually go there and make the effort and clean the routes and paths.

It suprises me how much people are willing to moan but not sacrifice some of their time and maintain crags.

In reply to Jackwd:

I know a guy who can help.......

In reply to Jackwd:

What's it like trad gear wise. Are the pegs necessary, or are there also nuts nearby? If the latter then just removing all the pegs would tidy up the route.

In reply to Jackwd:

Yeah it's daft, but Peak lime isn't about things being tidy and safe. It's about things being a bit grotty, a bit polished, a bit loose, and a bit dangerous. Otherwise known as 'character'.

In reply to Jimbo C:

I did it in the 1980s, and don't remember there being more than one peg (at the crux). It had been an aid peg, but my logbook records that I did it free, and I seem to remember not finding it too hard. I also have a vague memory that there were quite good nuts in the region of the peg, so that it wasn't really necessary even for protection.

In reply to Urgles:

As said, I would've if I could've. I thought a Top 50 HVS on an amazing crag would be clean. Not a moan, just a statement as it's fact.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

There is good gear above and below the crux (where the pegs are). The grade might just bump up to E1 when the pegs have gone.

In reply to Jackwd:

Limestone trad routes don't see many ascents a year,or at least not as many as most grit crags!that being said its a joy to climb them as its usually quiet every time I go to places like beeston. I carry a knife in my chalk bag in a zip pocket on rear of bag.if tat looks iffy I will cut it off and dispose of it.

Always try and keep vegetation to a minimum as well if climbing well within my grade,but I always think that it would be good to make time each year to go and clean up a couple of lines so they are in a good state for the next person. Sadly this hasn't happened as yet but its something I like to work on as these crags mean so much to me and many others!

as for bolts I don't see the need to do anything like that. Just a clean up and some new tat,un till the pegs are in a poor state when it can be reassessed. But I don't personally like to see bolts on trad routes,pegs a bad enough but they are part of the history of the route and so they will eventually degrade and rust away.

Glad you enjoyed the route though!its a lovely route worth every star!

In reply to Jackwd:

Remove the pegs and the route's no longer climbable by VS leaders (who use the pegs for aid). So it's climbed less and gets even dirtier...

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Are you saying you aided it?

I'd guess you could clean aid it at A1 or A2 irrespective of the peg but can't remember. What I do remember is I thought it was a pretty easy HVS that my second had fantastic fun on as he forgot to unclip said gear when he climbed past it... he was a very strong lad and it was debatable if he or the crag would explode if I hadn't nonchalantly pointed out what his likely problem was.

In reply to Jackwd:

Sounds like typical classic limestone, and none the worse for that.
I assume the chains you mean are the ones on the left side of the Ivy Gash? Probably better than tat, and the rock is a bit crozzly around there for belays.
Haven't climbed it since the 80s, but I'm pretty sure there were two pegs then. Easy climbing for a HVS even without pulling on the tat!
Best as a finish to Pocket Symphony for a great combination.

In reply to Jackwd:


Hang on, you add more unnecessary tat for an unnecessary abseil and you're on here complaining about unnecessary tat? Really?

Hang on, you post about how terrible our ethics are, but don't want to debate the obvious i.e its not about the visual impact its about the nature of the route, i.e unthinking bolt clipping (not a criticism just what I do generally) or assessing how good pegs and threads are i.e very thin or old and manky - procede with caution, or chunky and new - go for it. Of course staples are 'safer' but that's sport climbing isn't it?
As for the state of Beeston, I go there most years and it is slowly disappearing, as are huge numbers of limestone trad crags - if the routes get done then they stay veg free, if they don't then let them go back to nature, its no loss at that point. I did the big VS traverse last year and removed some substantial bushes on the way. The first pitch of The Thorn is always dirty, there is enough soil above it to keep it that way. The slab routes, The Thorn, Black Grub, Majolica and Faience will stay reasonable, the rest less so.

In reply to jon_gill1:
it seems that few people are cleaning routes as they do them these days, if it seems overgrown then try to remedy it. secateurs useful on Beeston and elsewhere (eg Gollyberry at Stoney)

In reply to Dave Garnett: He said he abbed from unnecessary tat. He didn't say he'd added it.

In reply to Jackwd:
Worth noting that Beeston generally has a lot of threads due to the pocketed nature of the rock. The tat on the lower offs can be old and in need of replacing, so take some new tat and a knife next time (I've done a bit of tidying up on some of the other routes). A metal cable is a good idea for loweroffs (in a plastic sleeve if round a tree) but no idea where to get those from (one for the BMC!). There is one at the top of Black Grub.

In reply to Offwidth:

Haven't done it yet, but the guidebook clearly says it's VS if you pull on the peg - so remove the peg and that possibility presumably disappears.

In reply to Jackwd:
Hopefully you will go back soon and do a bit of tidying up of the tat.
If everyone who climbs spent a bit of time looking after their place of enjoyment then crags would be in a much better condition. I often hear people complaining about 'dirty' routes, and when asked if they have done anything to clean them, they seem to believe it is someone else's job.
Each year I try to clean a few routes. Usually mid-week when I have no partner and the crag is not busy. Many of the limestone crags are empty at weekends because they are dirty. Take a day out and go clean one up! Secateurs, a paving slab joint tool, are cheap to buy (less than the price of a quick draw for the pair!) and easy to keep in your pack.
Hope to see more people joining in and making the effort to keep crags usable! (Forlorn hope I admit!)

In reply to johncook:

I live over 2 and half hours away which is why I won't be rushing back to clean the crag, apologies. I didn't suggest that I was above cleaning the crag, I said if I'd have had a knife with me i'd of cleaned it. I will be returning at some point and will take a knife with me.

In reply to Jackwd:



Well it might look a mess up close, but it is 'ethically better' as it doesn't involve drilling holes in the rock.


Chris

In reply to Dave Garnett: He said he abbed from unnecessary tat. He didn't say he'd added it.

In reply to Jackwd: I remember there being 3 old pegs in it in the 80s.