UKC

I think it'll save everyone a lot of time worrying about ethics, getting opinions for retrobolting specific routes or getting irate each time a limestone trad route gets retrobolted if we just bolt the lot. And then we can spend more time climbing.

All those in favour, click Like; against, click Dislike.

In reply to humptydumpty:

Maybe we could bolt you to the underneath of a bridge?!

In reply to humptydumpty:

Thanks for volunteering to buy the bolts

In reply to humptydumpty:

I've got a drill and loads of bolts for sale

In reply to humptydumpty:

I'm afraid I have to vote against this one for several reasons:

1. I live in a limestone area, and quite like trad.
2. There are many limestone buildings, pavements and patios that would be negatively impacted by bolting.
3. You might actually find some people who approve. It would be much more entertaining to start by bolting all the gritstone instead.

In reply to davidbeynon:

Especially all those awkward Grit jamming cracks !

In reply to Sl@te Head:


what sort of bolts?

In reply to IPPurewater:


And also bold/protectionless high e grade routes. Meshuga would make a lovely sport route.

In reply to Urgles:

Bosch drill & resin bolts and other bolting kit, message me if you or anyone's interested, I would genuinely need to know what they are to be used on and would refuse to sell to anyone planning on bolting any controversial routes e.g. replacing the threads on another Extreme Rock route like Great Wall at Craig Forwyn!!!

In reply to humptydumpty:

Does anyone mind if I bolt my door at night?

In reply to Sl@te Head:

Hi Ian, I will take the drill off your hands. Going by the current voting consensus, I will use it to bolt 27% of limestone trad routes, probably starting at Subluminal in Swanage, and then moving Westwards.

In reply to humptydumpty:

But surely you should just bolt until 27% of limestone routes are sport? I suspect you will hit Portland before this happens though...

Personally I can't stand the stuff (except at sea level or in caving-type routes) so don't really care either way

In reply to Sl@te Head:


Why not list and photograph the job lot?

Ideally one of the established bolt funds could buy it.

UKC could even set up a crowd funding scheme to pay for it.

That should tick all the boxes.

In reply to humptydumpty:
You have just defined yourself as a top-roper, there's your answer.
Leave leading for MEN and WOMEN.

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:


is it made of limestone?

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

No point in closing the stable door though. I hear the horse has bolted.

Although not sure if it bolted limestone or not.

In reply to humptydumpty:


Well okay, maybe you could bolt Subluminal (as long as you use titanium bolts) but please don't bolt Boulder Ruckle and beyond, the vibrations will probably cause the whole lot to fall down, and after putting all that work into the new Climbers' Club guide, it would almost certainly make Scott cry!

In reply to EddInaBox:


Wouldn't it be better to just put a chain around the lighthouse? Much more in touch with British trad ethics, I think...

In reply to andrewmcleod:

I see your point, it sticks out from the rock, it's just an oversized peg really. Obviously you can't just go placing lighthouses willy nilly nowadays, but since it's already there and the first ascensionists climbed the routes with it there I don't think it needs to be chopped. It looks in fairly good nick for now, although you can't really judge whether the bits you cannot see are sound so I'll probably go and give the base a good kick and a wiggle next time I'm down that way, just to make sure. At some point though someone will probably take a huge whipper on it and snap it off, then there's going to be the tedious should we replace it with another one debate.

In reply to humptydumpty:
I think we should bolt a few of the popular grit crags. That would give people loads of decent sport routes to go at and would leave proper rock (limestone) for trad

In reply to humptydumpty:

I know (hope?) the question was in jest but as soon as I started reading this thread I was thinking 'No, Subluminal would be ruined!' and you're starting there! Boo!

If there's one thing that might invoke an uber strict stiff British ethicist in me, it would be someone threatening to bolt Subluminal.

In reply to EddInaBox:


Not sure why this should be a barrier - bits of Portland fall down every year, but the bolts there and the efficient bus service makes for very accessible climbing. Also if Boulder Ruckle falls down then none of the fuddy-duddy trad dinosaurs can complain about "changing the character" of their old routes - it will be completely fresh rock, without an established ethic.

In reply to humptydumpty:

My next recommendation would be bolting Avon Gorge. I think it would be suitable for a few reasons:
* cams don't work there, and it's fiddly getting nuts to set in the wavy cracks
* some routes have dangerous run-outs, which distract from the climbing
* "environmental" objections to bolts are risible for a crag that has a dual carriageway all the way around it
* hanging around placing gear in vegetated cracks puts climbers at risk of catching lyme disease
* some routes are just a peg clip-up - that's not Trad! Trad is nuts and cams!
* it's just a big quarry
* stuff is already getting bolted there, and no one cares
* roadside bolted climbing within the limits of a major English city - what's not to like??

In reply to humptydumpty:

3 replies to your own OP.

-3/10

As for ethics, you've broken all those on the fine art of trolling and have failed miserably.

In reply to humptydumpty:


Firstly, because there are some routes there that I want to climb before they fall into the sea, and secondly because Dorset County Council and The National Trust would probably be a bit miffed if all their fences ended up on the boulder beach below and they had to redo the whole lot, they could well ban climbing in retaliation.

In reply to Trangia:

Accusations of trolling are a weak attempt to ignore the bigger issue at hand. It seems like a steady quarter of voters think we should just get on and bolt all the limestone climbing and be done with it.

What proportion of UK rock is limestone anyway? Why can't the 75 percenters just climb on the non-limestone rock and let the 25ers get on with it?

In reply to humptydumpty:


To me, "dangerous run-outs" is a poor justification for bolting - if they justify it, they also would for Great Slab at Froggatt [and 100 other routes]. Also, dangerous run-outs don't "distract from the climbing" - they're part of it, and to me focus the mind on the climbing.

Also, "risible for a crag that has a dual carriageway all the way around it" is a weak argument for bolting to me - loads of crags have roads nearby, what's that got to do with climbing ethics?

Thanks for posting anyway!

In reply to humptydumpty:


Yep, I'd go with that, I think a fair swap would be if you take Portland up north and bring back Stanage and drop it off in the middle of Hampshire. It would be irresponsible to bolt Boulder Ruckle though without installing lower-offs, your typical sport climber would get to the top-out and be paralysed with fear, you would then need an elevator, or at least a stair case, to get back to the top when you're finished for the day.

In reply to EddInaBox:

A staircase? You expect sport climbers to walk?

In reply to humptydumpty:


I think they were 'liking' your sweet and slightly funny effort at a troll, not the actual suggestion it contained, in all seriousness. Nice of them.

Incidentally, I couldn't vote, it was just too obvious, as shown by being astutely called out, effectively ending the thread, a mere 2 minutes after the OP. But it did make me smile a bit. Keep trying!

In reply to humptydumpty:




Ah yah Central Buttress would be so much better bolted...

In reply to Cheese Monkey:


Also - here's a feeble joke - Piton Route would have to be renamed "Bolt Route"!

(Sorry, slow morning).

In reply to abseil:

You could chop down all those nasty trees that obscure the view from lunchtime ledge if you had proper bolt belays.

In reply to davidbeynon:


Errrr maybe... but I prefer lunch under shady trees under the fierce Avon August sun...

Let's ask Martin Crocker???

In reply to davidbeynon:


Obviously the elevator was my first choice, but will humptydumpty have the money left for one after buying several thousand titanium bolts?

In reply to davidbeynon:

That's already happened on Breakfast Ledge.

In reply to EddInaBox:
He'll certainly have no energy left after placing 'em!

Mick (knackered)

I will take the drill off your hands. Going by the current voting consensus, I will use it to bolt 27% of limestone trad routes, probably starting at Subluminal in Swanage, and then moving Westwards.

In reply to humptydumpty:


You've given the game away entirely by spelling Subluminal correctly.

In reply to humptydumpty:
Trolling issues aside. Why the assumption that all limestone is for bolting? It's not only the rock type that determines whether to bolt or not, it's all aspects of the crag, i.e. it's height, location, accessibility and condition of the crag top, the presence or lack of natural belays, the presence or lack or natural cracks and breaks, etc.

Limestone is not just limestone, compare for example the loose, polished, awkward rock of Ravensdale with the clean and positive face climbing on the Gower.

Edit - Ravensdale, not Ravenstor

In reply to EddInaBox:


Yep, just writing up my grant application for Sport England. Bridge may not be, but Sport Climbing's definitely a sport.

In reply to Hamim:

Are you a bot?

In reply to humptydumpty:

Either a bot or a copy and paste enthusiast.

In reply to humptydumpty:
If you're serious (your reference to 'the bigger issue at hand' suggests you might be), you would do well to consider the history of limestone climbing in the UK and the nature of the routes at the various limestone crags. For a start, are you seriously suggesting bolting Pembroke?

In reply to humptydumpty: i was amused until I looked at your profile when I realised you probably meant what you suggested. It says all that needs saying.

In reply to jcw:

Crikey, what about my profile makes you say that?

In reply to Misha:


It's a serious question. Personally I'm not in favour, but I think it needs asking because there's a significant minority who support it, and it seems to me (from my very limited perspective) like bolting is gradually creeping in and gaining more support.

I suspect that the more gets retrobolted, the more support there'll be for retroing more routes, and the weaker the position of the anti-bolters. Once anti-bolters are a minority, what happens then?

I had thought the BMC had clear guidelines, and these guidelines were well supported and followed. Is that true?

In reply to humptydumpty:
Yes, people generally follow BMC area guidelines on bolting. Things like the Neil Gresham episode are very much on the margins. Generally, no one is rushing out to retrobolt established trad crags.

I'm not sure about the significant minority you mention. May be there are some people that think ALL limestone should be bolted but I can't see this becoming the prevailing view. There will be more people who might think that certain routes at certain crags or even certain minor crags should be bolted.

You are right though that the more retrobolting goes on, the more it will be accepted. However I think there will be certain lines that people will not allow to be crossed and any bolts placed will be chopped, for example on quality 'genuine' trad lines (ie not already peppered with bolts) on quality crags.

In reply to Misha:


Apart from places like Stoney or High Tor you mean.

In reply to GrahamD:
I'm not aware of any retrobolting on the quality sections of Stoney or High Tor. If there was any, I'd go and remove the bolts myself. There is some sport on the separate buttress that you go past to get to High Tor and the recent Gary Gibson routes down the far end of Stoney, some of which probably involved retrobolting, but these aren't exactly the quality trad sections of these crags.

In reply to Misha:

>... some of which probably involved retrobolting, but these aren't exactly the quality trad sections of these crags.

Ahh, that is slightly different, isn't it ? Its not about the venue anymore its whether someone judges the trad routes thereon to be any good. There is a 3* VS on that "low quality area of Stoney" which now has bolts clippable from its traverse.

In reply to humptydumpty:


There is no support in the climbing community for bolting Pembroke (a question Misha asked already), so the answer to your proposal is no. This isn't changing as far as I'm aware - I would expect that some people who are inexperienced might think it was a good idea "then I'd have loads of f5s and 6s to climb without having to learn how to trad climb", but then when they get more experienced they'll see why it's the wrong thing to do. As such, there is very little danger of the "anti-bolters" i.e. the UK climbing community, becoming outnumbered. Numptifying world class crags is not an idea I foresee gaining a lot of ground.

There might be more of case for bolting certain crags, but not based on the fact that they're limestone.

In reply to GrahamD:
Well you can always chop the offending bolts next time you're there, though probably best to raise it at the BMC area meeting first.

In reply to GrahamD:
You are right that it's easier to have a bolt / no bolt distinction by crag. However in practice that doesn't really make sense in many cases due to the nature of the rock - some lines will lend themselves to trad, others would be better as sport routes, and that can be on routes next door to each other. Hence the mixed crags like Wintour's, Kilnsey and High Tor. Inevitably there will be some bolt creep over time but there are plenty of people who would be prepared to chop bolts if certain lines are overstepped (I guess everyone will have their own idea of where the line lies). On the whole, there is an acceptable equilibrium most of the time.

In reply to Misha:


Living in Cambridge, any spare time I have has to be used up climbing - not tidying up the mess left by others.

In reply to Misha:


I don't think there is an equilibrium. That would imply as many bolts come out as go in which certainly isn't the case.

In reply to Misha:


As GrahamD says, it seems more of a trend, surely?


Unrelated, in this old article http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=223, which Stoney is being talked about?

In reply to humptydumpty:

Bah! Wouldn't believe any of it. Probably penned by some silly old buffer who knew sod all.

Mick

In reply to humptydumpty:
When I say equilibrium, I mean that whilst there's some retrobolting going on, it isn't impacting the quality trad.

Harpur Hill is a typical scrappy Peaks quarry which people only go to because it's bolted. Well, I don't go there at all because quite simply there are far better places to go in the Peaks.

There's been some bolting at Stoney down the far end but as far as I know none on the main crag. Lots of quality lines, a bit neglected as is a lot of Peaks trad limestone but there are still a few devotees and occasional visitors. No doubt the lines would be more popular if they were bolted but no one has bolted them because most people understand that it would not be acceptable. I bet any bolts places on Wee Doris, Bitterfingers, Scoop Wall etc would be removed pretty damn quickly!

In reply to Misha:

What about Evasor, a 3* VS ?

In reply to GrahamD:
I did say on the main crag. Garage Buttress is a bit of an outlier and as far as I know is the only bit of Stoney which has sport routes and has had since the 80s. A few more were added by Gary Gibson in the last few years. Given the mixed history of this buttress, it is not surprising that some more sport routes have been put up there. The more important point is that there has not been any bolting on the rest of the crag as far as I know.

In reply to GrahamD:


You've got time to moan but no time for any actions - move house ? definitely a lame excuse that , Mr Gibson travels the country putting up new routes , armchair climbers

In reply to solomonkey:

Missed your school bus this morning?

In reply to humptydumpty:

I think we should just bolt 27% of each of the climbs in the UK. I. E. Maybe the first 2-10m depending on length of route?

In reply to humptydumpty:


Actually I would hazard a guess and say that a quarter of limestone routes are already bolted routes. Certainly at Wye Valley, Dorset, Avon and probably other places (not Pembroke of course).

In reply to humptydumpty:

I'd like installation of via ferrata ladder rungs to be considered on really polished shit.

In reply to GrahamD:


Yes, so unfortunately had time to read your moaning drivel

In reply to humptydumpty: More bolts only means more folk masquerading as climbers - and more over inflated egos from those who think they are...

In reply to eltankos:


Turns out someone bolted the Horse TO the door, and fixed a lower-off to its forehead.

In reply to humptydumpty:


Well some people do.

we just have that odd double-standard where people think its ok to bolt as long as the sport grade ends up being so high the resulting route is useless for 90% of the locals.

In reply to humptydumpty:

This post has to be one of the biggest piles of horse tripe I read on here for a long time.


Where on earth do you get that idea from. You're right, limestone has a lower coefficient of friction. That does not mean cams don't work. You just have adjust the way you place them so that they can't pull. Which in said wiggly cracks ain't that hard. As for wiggle cracks and nuts, jeez...


I would suggest if you get distracted by the run out you're missing the point. The bold style of climbing in Avon IS the point.


How so? The environmental argument is fairly moot everywhere not just in a quarry - climbers do far more damage in other ways. You could argue that a bolted belay at the top of each climb at stanage would prevent tear and tear at the top of the crag. Never going to happen though is it.


What the f*ck? I mean really. What the f*ck? Do you even know how lymes disease is transmitted?


No. Trad is traditional climbing. Traditional as in old. As in pegs which existed long before cams and nuts. And pegs which have been in place for decades, and which generally as they rot and break are not being replaced unless they are necessary. A bolt you can put in any place rather than in lines of natural weakness. Plus please name these clip ups. I'm not really aware of any up to the grades I climb and I've climbed most at that grade in the gorge.


No, not all of it is. Research before you post.


Like what? Stuff has been restored, and it is being done in a considered and methodical way as agreed at BMC local area meetings. Much like Cheddar was retrobolted in parts and wintours leap was. To say no one cares is utter tripe.


roadside mixed ethic climbing within the limits of a major English city - what's not to like?? TFTFY