UKC

I seemed to be unable to improve at the mo F6b ish indoors and HVS outside - any ideas ??

In reply to Ciderslider:

Feeling a bit depressed? There was a good thread on this yesterday: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=624936

In reply to Ciderslider:

Failure to improve does suck the motivation.

Try doing a bit of a search around, http://bfy.tw/1wNE

Then yourself why do you fail when you try harder stuff?

Once you have a good idea why you fail then divise a short 6 week program to target this weakness twice a week.

Stick to it, then when you finish, reassess why you fail then repeat.

In reply to Ciderslider:

Do you go bouldering?

In reply to Ciderslider:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2648 written for this sort of scenario.

In reply to Ciderslider:

Are you enjoying climbing at F6b or do you find the routes too easy, repetitive and boring?

If you are still enjoying the grade and find them challenging, then what's wrong with F6b for you?
You may not be at a plateau but more at your technical limit. I'd love to run sub 10 seconds but it will never happen.

And if you find F6b easy, repetitive and boring them maybe you can climb better but have hit a psychological barrier?

In reply to Ciderslider:
I'd say just go climbing as much as possible, ideally with people who lead E1-3 so you can second them on harder routes, and on different rock types. Make sure you always lead something at HVS and try safe E1s. Don't climb below HVS except to warm up - doing VSs won't get you to be a solid E1 leader! Plus indoors a couple of times a week. To get to E1 you don't really need any particular training if you can already do F6b indoors. Try to do F6b outdoors though.

In reply to Ciderslider:

Changing something about you training normally has a positive effect.
Most people seem to be a little negative about training and opt to climb loads.

However I garantee you if you get your half marathon time down to 90min and can do 15 pull ups rest on the bar then do another 15 you will have more than enough strength and stamina to hold your own at e1/e2 and 7a. Then just get on them and you quickly gain technique and the confidence of knowing you won't burn out really helps.

Ps, Ben moons book is worth a read.

In reply to Ciderslider:

Howdy neighbour! We seem to be living on the same plateau.
Personally I think training might get me off it, but currently I don't have time for that. Anyway, I quite like doing VSs.

In reply to Fiend:


+1 Fiend's article is definitely worth reading for where you are at.

In reply to BloodyJam:


Depends on the training. Although building up trad climbing experience is obviously the best way to get good at trad, it also means spending the vast majority of your climbing time not climbing. If you're climbing with someone who climbs at a lower grade, you're doing almost nothing that's going to help improve - the only bit that pushes you is the crux of the one or two hard routes you've done.

Personally I like to think in terms of technical grades and what I've got 'in reserve'. If you want to climb E1 on grit in different styles, you need to climb 5a above a bad groundfall, bold 5b (potential hospitalisation), sustained 5b (rarer), and short, sharp protected 5c. You also need to be able to highball 6a. So you're going to want to be regularly climbing 6a moves, and probably able to work 6b moves on a lowball boulder.

There's very little stamina involved on grit, only the odd route where some fitness comes in handy, and power-endurance is as good as useless. Grit usually involves standing around on ledges and then having to do something bold or hard to get to the next ledge. So basically training routes indoors is just a waste if time for grit, but bouldering is really handy - indoors for strength and outdoors for technique. Being able to boulder V3 (high, committing) and V4 (lowball) is a good level for E1 on grit. Plenty in the bag for bold routes, and the necessary strength and skill to deal with a tough crux.

Different kettle for limestone though, where the ability to pull 6a moves near the ground is unlikely, and more fitness is needed.

If the OP can't do this, I would suggest getting to that level.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Not sure I agree there Jon, V3/4 is way harder than a typical E1. Putting E1 6a to one side (not many of those), surely E1 cruxes are no more than V2. Whilst many E1 leaders would be able to do V3/4, perhaps after working them, you certainly don't need to be able to do them to climb E1. I don't think I'd be able to flash V3/4 every time outdoors and I've done a few E5s and a fair few E4s! Admittedly none on grit, I know grit can be cruxy and weird so I get what you're saying but I just think V3/4 for E1 on any rock type is excessive. Then again, what do I know about grit, the last time I climbed on it was in April

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Also, isn't bold 5b going to be E2?

In reply to Ciderslider:

1) Consistency - Doing less but more often will be better than hitting the gym 3 or 4 times a week and then having layoffs, if you can climb indoors week in week out then you will see some improvement, especially in the fingers which are slow to respond

2) the process can be sped up by sacrificing a few 'bad' things and some discipline, how far you want to go is up to you. I saw on your profile you like beer?

3) bouldering is really good for getting stronger. I climb at Boulder Brighton too : )

4) try and find people who climb harder than you. Even if they aren't actual climbing partners, believe it or not getting burnt off boulder problems indoors is a good way to get the psyche to try harder, and you just might suprise yourself (there are tons of outrageously strong guys at BB!!)

5) what everyone else said

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Don't dissagree, just chucking somthing into the mix that will fit into the 9-5 workers wintery evening.
This worked for me on grit and lime, I gained a v grade too with the running. Mainly driven by weight loss helping I think. Although places like millstone were my weakness on trad back then...

everyone's diffrent, you may just be a better climber. I make up for it with fittness and determination!

In reply to TobyA:


I'm once again there, due to blowing a few tendons in my finger...

The key last time for me, was bouldering and also doing lots of different types of routes. So in essence do stuff you're horribly bad at, until you start getting good at it.

For the record, I could never climb much harder than f6b indoors, but outdoors low 7s were indeed quite possible. That said, most of the stuff I climb outdoors (w/ a rope) are vertical to slabs. So technique triumphs over power endurance...

In reply to BloodyJam:


I can't help but feel this little tidbit of nonsense slipped under the net slightly!
There is no way you can guarantee climbing performance based on someone's ability to perform other, vaguely related tasks, humans just don't work that way.
Aside from this, and the lack of any solid evidence that cardio fitness has anything to do with climbing performance anyway, I think your requirements are way off the average if you polled some 7a climbers.
My wife climbs 6c+ and can't do 1 pull up, I climb 7c+ and haven't run further than the distance from the front door to the car since I was 15.
I suppose your statement is technically true, if any superhumans out there can actually perform those two tasks (I've not met anyone who can do 30 pull ups with a hanging rest between, ever) then I imagine that yes, 7a is probably something that they would laugh their way up, but that is kind of like saying that if you can bench press 200kg then you can probably lift a sack of potatoes above your head...

I would suggest that you don't need to get even close to either of those requirements to be able to climb 7a, a focussed, specific training plan would get be much more likely to get you to your goal.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I agree with that argument. The climbing loads idea works well for the naturally talented climbing with harder climbing partners but not always for mortals and most of us dont have that amount of time, so we need to train. Natural grit is a terrible medium to improve on as an onsight leader but great as a boulderer and even flattering on headpoint ( those big numbers are not real). Climbing onsight with a rack you certainly could do with a few bouldering grades in hand... you need to be likely to flash the crux carrying weight or you are taking big risks or likely dogging (when I can't see why they are not sports climbing).

I'm not fussed about getting better but have trained for holidays and even a month of prep 3 times a week quickly gets me an extra grade. Its less interesting but it make the most of an expensive trip. In between I remain a typical plateaux VS leader who has more than plenty to do. I've onsighted a few bold E2s and quite a lot of E1s of various styles. I declined headpoints on all but new lines and checking dangerous looking obscurities (I've cleanly seconded plenty of E4s and even the odd E5 that suit me that I know are as hard for me to be headpoint as some E1s I've done that way but it just seems like cheating for the sake of the bigger number)

In reply to Dandan:

+1

Another one I spotted above was the suggestion that the op might have hit their technical limit at fr6b - the "how hard can I climb" argument has many answers but for the utterly overwhelming majority the answer isn't fr6b.

If you're stuck in a plateau, do something different, harder, more, whatever it may be. Just don't keep doing the same thing as currently without changing anything.

In reply to BloodyJam:


Not necessarily, perhaps just a misunderstanding that climbing loads *is* training. It's just that the way most people do it is a bit adhoc and unstructured. You don't *need* a structured training plan to get to E1, but that doesn't mean you won't benefit from one.

In reply to AJM:

it also matters how much, in your heart of hearts, you actually want to get better, cos to do it seriously takes a lot of time & effort. If you really do then get a session or two with a good coach, get them to write you a training plan, stick to it, reap the benefit.

In reply to hms:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2648 section 5.1 is the bit you need.

It can be worth getting a coaching session to identify your weakness(es) and suggest training.

Take note of S5.2 vs S5.3 because 5.1 can lead to injury!

Get strong, improve your technique, manage your fear / head (this often reduces with getting stronger) don't eat too many pies, climb with good climbers and don't forget to enjoy your climbing (this last bit is most important).

In reply to Dandan:
Fair enough fitness training isnt for everyone it just helped me.
15 pull ups + rest + 15 pull ups isnt ground breaking, give it a try, it defo wont make you a worse climber if you get to that point. Pullups unlike bench press (or lifting spuds?) are a very good measure of your strength to weight ratio, so worth keeping tabs on.

Like i say my issue wasnt really a technical one at E1, it was often not burning out on the onsight......
As you often have to do alot of p!ssing about on trad (gear fiddles, hanging about trying to work out the moves before you commit etc..). If you can recover on route better it stop these little dramas having quite such an effect.

Probably a slightly diffrent logic applies to sport? I only do a small amount on hols abroard.
Sport will tend to train you harder anyway i imagine if you do enough of it.........

In reply to Ciderslider:

Redpointing.
jk

In reply to jkarran:

also headpointing and bouldering

In reply to planetmarshall:
Yes, climbing loads is indeed training in itself. Not as efficient in terms of physical progress but much better for technique, motivation and having fun!

When I said that to get to E1 you need to climb lots outside and a couple of times a week indoors, what I meant was you need to be out at least one day most weekends through the April - September season. If life or weather intervenes, you'd need to do more training indoors.
Yes, climbing loads is indeed training in itself. Not as efficient in terms of physical progress but much better for technique, motivation and having fun!

When I said that to get to E1 you need to climb lots outside and a couple of times a week indoors, what I meant was you need to be out at least one day most weekends through the April - September season. If life or weather intervenes, you'd need to do more training indoors. Also, specific weaknesses have to be addressed, for example fear of falling or excess weight (on the rack and/or on the body!). Also, specific weaknesses have to be addressed, for example fear of falling or excess weight (on the rack and/or on the body!). Finally, it's important to climb with others who are psyched and keen to improve. If you're struggling to find partners or finding that it's too far to drive to the crags, consider moving closer to a good climbing area or somewhere central like the Midlands, if you can...

Having said all that, the diverse responses to the question show that there is no one size fits all solution. It's also interesting that only a couple of people have suggested seeing a climbing coach!

In reply to BloodyJam:

I'm pretty sure that the largest number of pullups I have ever been able to do was when I climbed 6a. Its an exercise with a very low correlation to climbing performance.

In reply to AJM:


Unless you climb like Louis Parkinson...

In reply to Ciderslider:

I suspect a plateau somewhere around that level is common for many climbers, corresponding very roughly to how many times a week you can get down the wall and how hard/bold you are willing to push yourself outside. There's loads of good advice already on this thread, but for me 2 things made a big difference to move things on:

- I did more indoor bouldering and went to the wall the same night(s) of the week, so I got to know a few familiar faces, who showed me new techniques and the semi-competitive but still supportive banter made me try a bit harder than I might have. I tried to ensure I mixed it up between pulling harder (which I like) and pulling longer (which I don't). I also tried to focus on improving my core strength and footwork through bouldering (overhang work) and supplemented it a bit with the Daily Ab Workout App (when I could be bothered - usually if I was made to watch Downton Abbey or the like).

- Getting better outside for me was a function of beginning to feel more comfortable on harder climbs. This was achieved by seconding with better climbers than me or if that wasn't possible then putting a toprope on stuff (trad and sport) and understanding what was needed to succeed on these harder climbs. Obviously try to avoid to toproping stuff you've a real desire to try onsight first.

Hope that helps. Neither of the above involved me doing devoting a lot more time by the way - I just did things differently for me.

In reply to planetmarshall:

If I remember rightly the video ive seen of him was mainly footless bouldering, which is far more akin to campusing (dynamic power, contact strength etc) than it is about pullup strength?

In reply to Misha:

What magic version of the UK do you live in that enables a day's climbing every weekend? For real people it often rains and not every weekend is free.

I'd strongly support coaching and many climbers will help you with this for free: its a big benefit in identifying problems and getting personalised training that makes a real difference. Missed opportunities abound: I went to the National Trust Longshaw event last week (since its linked to the BMC Peak Area and Moff is the secretary and we were climbing in that area anyhow) and £20 masterclasses were hardly rammed and the evening event was great to get an insight into how hard climbers (Ben, Caff, Johnny, and Katy) progressed, watched mainly by people who knew already. Climbers who say they really want to progress but haven't (without work or injury issues) lack commitment to honestly deal with their real weaknesses and/or properly train/diet.

In reply to BloodyJam:


Unless you end up with elbow tendonitis and can't climb!

I agree with AJM and Dandan, it's completely unnecessary. I can probably do 7 pull ups, maybe 8 at a push, but I don't find arm strength to be my limiting factor on low extremes and low to mid 7s. My partner can probably do about the same and he's onsighted E5 and redpointed 7c+. Foot on campussing, 4 x 4s etc. are far better as training for climbing than doing a load of pull ups.

In reply to Offwidth:


He does dry tooling in manky dark caves.

In reply to Offwidth:


Living within striking distance of weather proof crags helps. If all else fails there's usually something climbable at Malham

In reply to Offwidth:


I went also, however I only found out about it by accident - a news article fairly deeply buried among the UKC forums. The event was well intentioned, but the organisation best described as 'shambolic' (The BMC article advertised an 09:30 start at which point there was nobody on site). The evening event seemed mostly attended by the speakers and their friends. It's not hugely surprising that the masterclasses were 'hardly rammed'.

In reply to Ciderslider:

Read Dave Mac's book "9 out of 10..."

In reply to Offwidth:

...


Aren't you contradicting yourself here? On the one hand making excuses for climbers based on weather or time constraints, then on the other hand berating them for their lack of commitment?

If you really want to improve, then you make the time and you get outside, rain or shine.

In reply to Ciderslider:

Just a generic 'climb more' or 'train harder' isn't that useful.

Start with figuring out why you're failing - is it that the moves are too hard technically, or you pump out, get scared etc? If it's a lack of skill - spend time bouldering. Lack of fitness? Do laps on a circuit board, and keep tabs on your progress. Power endurance holding you back? Make your bouldering steeper. Fear of falling? Practice falling.

In general: boulder to improve your sport climbing to improve your trad. Learn to redpoint - it doesn't come naturally to a trad climber. You gain confidence by pushing your grade on sport. I massively improved my grade after plateauing for a long time by stopping climbing routes inside and starting bouldering only during the winter months - then add route fitness later.

In reply to planetmarshall:


I agree with this more than anything else in this thread. Having recently bought a house that needed complete renovation, having a baby and starting a new job this year I was worried that my climbing would slip. If anything I am now more motivated and make better use of my time than i ever have. I fingerboard either late at night or set the alarm an hour early at 5:45 and do a session before work, for outdoor climbing I have been regularly leaving the house at 5:30 to be at the crag by 6:30 (sometimes warming up by headtorch) so i can be home by 9ish for a full day of work on the house, as for wall sessions I might only get there once a week for 2 hours however i now plan my time and make sure to get the most out of my time rather chatting and drinking coffee like i once did when visiting 2 or 3 times a week for 3-4 hours. My grade is still improving and I see no reason why this shouldn't be the case even if my life gets busier still (especially as i am planning to build a 50° board in my garage to boulder on!)

At the end of the day only you can decide if climbing is worth sacrificing other things in your life for, for me it is because of he enjoyment it brings. For others trying to improve at climbing might not be worth the sacrifices required (time,money,effort,etc), I don't see anything wrong with this however you need to be honest with yourself and understand that there is a way to improve for everyone provided you have enough motivation and are prepared to make it happen.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Gosh! Much of that sounds like E2 to me. As for working 6a/b, hardly a pre-requisite for E2, let alone E1. If grit E1 requires the above I'd suggest going elsewhere! Generally I agree with others that the best way to improve on E1 is to attempt lots of E1s on lots of different rock types. Indoor bouldering does help though.

Then again I note the OP has done Flying Buttress Direct, so surely a good number of grit E1s should be within his grasp?

In reply to planetmarshall:
I don't think I'm contradicting myself. I think most training and working out what ones weaknesses are can be done indoors. Most plateau climbers I know have a good enough head game it won't be holding them back much if they trained harder and fixed other problems. Climbing indoor sports routes to failure is a lot more efficent and safer for improving confidence in falls than starting out doing the same on trad routes. Trouble is all this indoor training malarkey is not as much fun as outdoor climbing.

As for the event I saw it advertised in several places but only went for the evening bit. Its not good if they didn't have someone there at the 9.30 start, let the NT organisers know.

In reply to Ciderslider:
I think (but am not sure) there's a difference between perceiving a plateau and being on one - maybe not for than a decade though. more

My grade is pretty flat and has been for over a year, although it's hard to tell given route setter politics. But, there's a part of me that kind of knows I am getting better, doing stuff I wouldn't and couldn't have done. I've berated myself that if this was the case I'd be getting up stuff, however, I'm not sure I'm as willing to 'thug' bits where I know there's an alternative. Once I learn an alternative every fibre of my being seeks 'that' the thing I want, the thing I want more than a flash, so much so that where (and only where!) I've learned something better no force, nor prize or anything would see me do anything else - except by accident!

Stuck indoors I do get a little grade obsessed (so yeah - I'ze human) but even when my head hasn't caught up, my arms and legs know that what I really want is something that' eluded me for a lifetime - to be graceful AND strong. I think sometimes plateaus are part of our own process of self discipline, desire to do something in an artful way.

FWIW I don't buy that life can always be mastered in such a way that time is made, not once a parent, employee, partner, home owner - life does creep in. I'm grateful I had my playtime and used it fully years ago, but now 'training' means adapting to the less than ideal, whether that be jogging whilst carrying a scooter or making work calls whilst trying to balance on a 'rock n hopper' bought at the car boot! Ingenuity and continuing to look for new avenues is far more relevant to me than sticking to a training regime.

Edited to add - Just read that back and it sounds like twaddle! I think I know what I mean but clearly can't express it! Just that form starts to matter as much as just going up, at least it does for me.

In reply to Offwidth:
It comes down to willingness to travel. I live in Birmingham, which means I can get anywhere in England and Wales for a weekend (and Scotland, though I only do that in winter) and many places for a day. I exploit that to the full. Of course you need to know enough people who are also wiling to travel and/or are based in different parts of the country, to make it work. This year I had 13 consecutive weekends away from home climbing both days, from June to mid-August (it came to an end only because I then had an Alps trip). That's despite the so-so weather. There was usually somewhere dry and reasonably warm to climb, just a question of where. There were a few trips to Cornwall but also North Wales, Lakes, Yorkshire, Swanage... Your closing comment is right - you need commitment to progress. That includes willingness to travel!

I haven't tried getting pro coaching (perhaps I should) but agree it may well help. What I meant by my comment (that only a couple of people have recommended it) was that there is a bit of an aversion to getting coaching in the climbing community and yet most people (myself included) could probably benefit from it.

And you're right that coaching doesn't have to be from a pro but only to a point. If you want to get from VS to E1, someone who climbs, say, E5 could really help with technique and approach etc but they probably wouldn't be as good as a pro coach. But if you want to get to, say, E6, pro coaching is likely to be the only option, unless you live in Sheffield or similar where there are loads of wads!

In reply to planetmarshall:


Yes but not in the summer! Great for the winter season though.

In reply to flopsicle:


Definitely. And different people have different levels of expectation. I like the phrase 'starting to plateau' as someone could be very gradually (over several years) getting marginally better through mileage and the odd time when they've pulled a great lead out the bag, but may not be breaking into new grades. In this scenario a good way of measuring how you're getting on can be number of onsights a year at your top grade (and try and better it each year).

In reply to Misha:

This year was a bit unusual but I agree something was on somewhere (I remember some pretty shit summers during guidebook work when weekend after weekend was a write-off). Question is is this efficent or always effective. I'm not anti outdoor, just the opposite, but in terms of plateau issues I just think people use it as a crutch sometimes and it clearly doesn't work as an improvement strategy for everyone (especially if you lack a much better partner to help you along). Training a few times a week takes much less time and is much easier to fit into a normal life than going away every weekend. If you can't find a wad or useful advice (or arguabky in any case) coach sessions are a good investment.... think of the weekends you can go climbing and could be climbing harder as you want to.

In reply to Misha:


It is - I'm not talking about onsighting V3/4. It's *a lot* easier to climb something 3ft off the deck above a couple of pads, after 10 attempts than to do the same move on a route. I'd expect quite a margin between what one can work in isolation and what one can do onsight on a route. The trad grades for highballs are in line with this: V2 / HVS 5c, V3 /E1 6a, V4 / E2 6a/b, V5 / E3 6b. (To me, doing these with pads feels worth the trad grade although they were obviously all done without; grit microroutes are horrendous sandbags, now tamed by pads).

In reply to Michael Gordon:


'Fraid so. E1 5b on grit is often a quick little 5b moves which if you stuff it up, you'll take an ankle-threatening tumble.

As for working 6a/b, hardly a pre-requisite for E2, let alone E1.

Surely if you want to onsight 5c (i.e. climb E1+) you'll need to able to work 6a/b? If your onsight grade is the same as your bouldering grade, then you must have amazing ability at onsighting. I have seen this in some very experienced climbers who can just about climb their very hardest onsight, in the middle of a route, but it takes pretty much a lifetime of climbing to get to that level. Most climbers will have a fair margin between what they can work and what they can onsight.

You could get up a lot of grit E1s without bouldering V3/4, but if V2 is your max, you're going to fail on all the highballs and a lot of the cruxy routes.


Very true.

In reply to climbingpixie:

When i say pull-ups; I only do one intense session a week mixed in with plenty of bouldering and running the rest of the time. I will take you advice on board as mix it up and see what happens. It only takes me that one weekly session to be holding at reps of 15, surprising how quickly you make progress with them...

Anyway the jury is out on the pull-up by the sounds of things, if you read Ben Moons book statement he specifically mentions pull ups and dead hangs as being the main training building blocks.
But he also said technique is no substitute for power which is probably up for debate.....

To be Fair though like previously mentioned if i don't run my weight creeps and i start to struggle. Maybe being 6ft 3 doesn't help as my natural weight is around 14st, my running weight is probably 12ish. I clock around 25 miles a week running to stay there....

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I think 6b is pushing it, but on reflection you're probably right with the above. I've never done much outdoor bouldering (where the tech grade would be easier to gauge) but thinking about it, working V3/4 indoors will have involved a good number of 6a moves. It just doesn't feel the same!

In reply to Michael Gordon:
Of the V3s I do or try indoors I would grade them anything from V0 to V4 xepending on the wall... It doesn't matter though... training gives visible improvement even when the grades are consistently wrong. I think you typically need to be flashing a lot of real outdoor V2s (ie f6A) to be regularly leading the odd E1 as a solid HVS leader.

The OP is an honest and chap as well as determined: his FBD lead was with significant beta so HVS as an equivalent onsight. Ticking overgraded E1s as an HVS leader is cheating.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Agree.
You also need to be able to cope with 5c when your pretty tried on some trad routes.
The 5c is also only 5c if you read it correct; easy to make 5c - 6a/6b if to read it totally wrong or don't spot a hold etc...

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Oh I see, then I agree, an average E1 leader would probably be able to work some/most V3/4s. But I still think that even if you can't work a V3/4 (or don't because you don't do bouldering) first mean you can't do E1.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Same for onsignting 5c and working 6a/b. Most people who onsight 5c regularly would be able to work 6a and some 6bs. But you don't need to be able to do that to onsight 5c. At least you don't need to be able to work 6b and hard 6a - these grades are of course fairly wide, particularly 6b.

In reply to Offwidth:
I would never advocate more indoor at the expense of quality outdoor (as in, routes you want to do and trying hard on them, not bimbling around). You just get so much more experience (technique, head game) outdoors. Of course you still need to do some indoor or after work sport climbing in the summer. And people who can't get outdoors often enough would need to do more indoors. But having said all that, my primary strategy for improvement in recent years has been volume outdoors and that has got me to solid E3 5c and the odd E5 6a. If I actually trained properly indoors I might climb E6... Everyone is different though.

In reply to Offwidth:

Don't a lot of V2s have the odd tech 6a move on them (grade charts would suggest this)? Flashing 6a outdoors is way above what is required to lead E1 (the ability to flash average 5b).

In reply to Michael Gordon:

This is all very technical orientated conversation, there is a bit more to it than that.........

I always think Suicide Wall at cratcliffe done in one pitch is a good indicator of when your ready for the move to Grit E1.
It probably only 5a if you do the moves right, but kinda checks you have all the other qualities required.
To be honest if you can 1 pitch Suicide wall you will probably be fine with most of the E1s at Froggat.
That famous E1 on high tor will probably feel easy too.......

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Of courese,

I believe you're right. That said, having some reserve is nice... because if you get the 5b portion wrong, simply by mis-reading the sequence on missing a hold... well, it ain't 5b no more.

In reply to Ciderslider:
Well, there's an awful lot of technical discussion on here, if you're already doing f6b and hvs then there are plenty of E1 routes you'll breeze up if you're psyched enough. Everyone's overlooking a key skill too, here it is...........

Look in the graded list for the lowest few E1 routes.
Pick the one that looks nicest/most up your street.
Try it. Do it
Look at the graded list
Pick the next easiest one
Do it
Repeat.

It's a good way into a grade.
Also when breaking into a grade, my partners and I have a loose rule of always ish attempt a route of that grade every time we head out. That helps break into a grade too.

If you want pointing at some soft touch peak E1 s to get you started, feel free to get in touch.

Edit: ps I notice you climb lots in swanage. Swanage is nails. I climb VS to HVS there and up to E3 in the peak and E2 elsewhere............

In reply to LakesWinter:

>

Depending on the grade/venue! There's absolutely no way I could attempt an E4 every time I go out. It has to be something which looks just right (safe enough but not brutal). And mentally I'd be frazzled.

But yes, I did try and do this when breaking into E1/2.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Yeah, that's why it's a loose ish rule - more of a general aim to maintain a level of trying a reasonable amount and pushing yourself a bit but not too much

In reply to Ciderslider:

Take a look at the average grade across the disciplines: V3 / 6b / VS

Straight away this data tells you that the main thing holding most people back is not technique or strength but the mind. As the preceived risk goes up the grade goes down.

Climbing v3 above a bolt is more mentally challenging then above a mat, above gear is another step up.

The mental game is also not only about fear of falling, there is a whole wealth of mental reasons why you are not climbing harder. For me going from 6b-7a had a lot more to do with dealing with negative self talk and giving myself a hard time every time I failed rather than not doing enough fingerboarding. That said in order to get to the next level I will need to work on that.

In reply to Tru:




True, but OP did state that it was f6b indoors. Not sure about the bouldering. If both f6b and V3 are indoors, then it might have everything to do with technique (route reading). As lets face it, indoor climbing /= climbing on real rock... unless the real rock happens to be continental overhanging limestone (when it's quite close).

In reply to LakesWinter:


Yeah, thing is you could probably substitute the sentence

"X is nails. I climb several levels below my best grade there, which I climb at Y".

For just about any climber, where X is some place you are either unfamiliar with or the climbs or rock don't suit your style, whereas Y is probably your home crag.

In reply to Tru:

I disagree. A plateau climber to me is often a fairly prolific outdoor leader who already has a good head game. To get to onsight proper E1 regularly you just dont need stuff like fingerboard training but bouldering, redpointing and stamina training really help. All these numbers dont help as although E1 is pretty standard: V3 isn't (not helped by Rockfax redefining it as f6A) and neither are indoor sports grades in the low 6s.

In reply to HeMa:

It could be all sorts of things which is why identifying weaknesses is so important. A coach can really help.

In reply to Offwidth:

Indeed, but as a general notation, if both V3 and f6b are indoors, the reason is not maximum strength nor most likely stamina (have yet to find a real slab indoor wall, where stamina isn't required).

This points to flaw in some technique, it can be as simple as route reading or lack certain specific climbing skills...


If the OP can climb also V3s on real rock, then the limiting factors can be on the mental aspects as he/she can clearly climb outside.

In reply to Misha:

I would advocate investigating what the problem is and responding with what likely works best (a coach style view). Advocating solely outdoors or indoors is dumb if we dont know what the problem is. I'd always prefer to deal with issues outdoors where possible but you have to be careful about distraction from dealing with the real weaknesses or from training or burning a lot of time in the travel.

In reply to HeMa:

My guess for the OP is he is too heavy, has some technical gaps, some climbing efficiency issues and stamina issues. Id be amazed if he is flashing different styles of f6A+ outdoors and failing on LU.

In reply to Offwidth:


Ha, just like my.


Don't know if you mean Left Unconquerable, which was indeed quite fun. Perhaps a tag stamina-oriented for me, though. And indeed, it felt like an average sustained f6a route.

So for versatile f6a+ onsighter (on bolts) failing on Left Unconquerable to me points out head issues and/or gear placing skills plus route reading (ie. failing to read the good rests).

If he/she is consistent at climbing f6a+ indoors, that would in my opinion point to climbing technique and route reading errors (how much of each, depends greatly on the quality of the gym he visits) plus head & gear issues.

In reply to LakesWinter:
Sound advice.

In reply to Offwidth:
Agree need to look for weaknesses but I would still advocate getting outdoors as often as possible I and picking sensible but challenging target routes as Lakes Winter set out and also hanging out with psyched people. If you get to climb something decent, travel time and cost is never wasted! Although if time really is precious, focusing on issues indoors can be a good idea - if they are issues that can be solved indoors, which is not always the case.

Also agree that weight can be a major consideration. Climbing is partly a strength to weight ratio game and which part of the equation is easier to address will vary from person to person.

In reply to HeMa:
Seem to recall that LU requires some jamming or at any rate it's a crack climb, which requires very different technique to the average sport route! Been years since I did it though (with a rest - think I was tired after doing another route earlier by suspect it was also technique that let me down).

In reply to Misha:

Need to be careful trying to train for Grit or Granite on anything other than grit or granite, and indoor struggles to replicate it. This is why i made a big point of training fitness and arm strength early on in the link, as they are guaranteed to be of benefit in most situations.

Put it this way; now I have a base level of climbing ability that defo "did" develop from climbing and bouldering in my early years (V3, 6a/6b). Now as long as i keep running and keep the upper body strength i can get on almost any E1/E2 anytime and hold my own even after 6 months off any form of climbing. However if i let the strength and fitness dip its a different story....

My point is: just make sure fitness and strength to weight ratio isn't you weak link; its easier to get strong and fit than it is to work out the weird art of grit climbing which can take years.

Ps: anyone who thinks fitness doesn't help in climbing will find they make some serious gains if they just give it a try.
I find it really good to just head to the peak in winter with the pad and if its dry i climb, if its wet i run. You get out more as you risk the crappy days and if they don't work out dry you get fit anyway! (and running over stanage or curbar is pretty cool!!)

In reply to BloodyJam:


Except for as a weight management piece, running or other general CV exercise just isn't as efficient a way of getting better at rock climbing as more climbing related exercises. Specificity is just basic sport science.

So yeah, mark me as a disbeliever. I've managed to do alright by following conventional training wisdom rather than wasting my training time jogging. I could give it a try, but I can guarantee that diverting time from climbing into anything apart potentially from directed climbing-relevant exercises (fingerboard or campus board say) would not be an efficient way to push my grade.

In reply to Misha:


Nay, not a single jam on it. laybacking and jugs.

In reply to BloodyJam:
Agree re grit and granite and that strength to weight is important. How improtant cardio fitness is will vary from person to person, eg plenty of skinny climbers out there who don't really need to loose weight. It also depends on what type of climbing you do - clearly fitness is important for long walk ins and days when winter climbing and in the Alps.

In reply to HeMa:
Ok, was a long time ago...

In reply to BloodyJam:

Hmmm... not sure if that's consistent with my own experience, I haven't done any aerobic exercise whatsoever for more than twenty years (aside from a few months of using a gym treadmill during an elbow injury lay-off... 6 years ago). I am so unfit that I find myself always climbing at Kilnsey, purely because I want to avoid the half mile walk-in to Malham. But, I cannot say I have ever felt it was holding me back in terms of climbing attainment, unless there are crags with soft grades that I am missing out on because of the walk-in!

Personally, I climbed at my best, when I was doing more climbing (i.e. couple of periods of unemployment when I did a lot of bouldering). That said, I have been gainfully employed for 5-6 years now and took up sport climbing three years ago (as in proper red-pointing, rather than the odd holiday of on-sight Spanish bolt clipping) and have made decent progress despite only being a weekend climber (and until three months ago, not doing any midweek training - just recently bought a fingerboard).

I reckon climbing twice a week is plenty to keep making progress. You just have to try damn hard each session you do have - bouldering / route-working sessions largely spent repeatedly falling off moves that are that little bit too hard. I reckon if you want to get better at climbing, rather than going running on wet days, you would be best advised to go to an indoor bouldering wall and beast yourself on steep boards. The only reason to run, is if you like running, I suspect any effect on climbing is very peripheral.

In reply to HeMa:


Most people find it much easier to jam the first half of the route, but there's nothing to stop you laybacking if that's what you're into.

In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:

Interesting. I think natural size and weight plays a pretty big part in this debate.
If your like me and 6ft3 and would naturally be 14 stone without the running, or 12 with then it certainly helps on that account alone.

Are you quite a small build? You obviously excel on the sport climbing.

Defo agree with the more climbing thing. God knows where i could be if work wasn't in the way!
Better get out anyway, only one more day then work again.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Hmm. maybe you're right. my memory is quite fuzzy as well. perhaps there was some jams on the initial crack to the flaky portion.

In reply to BloodyJam:

I am 6'3" but with a very thin build; I used to be 1.5 stone heavier - was a much better boulderer then.

In reply to The Lemming

I'd love to run sub 10 seconds but it will never happen.

That's easy to sort,just stop at 9

In reply to HeMa:


Except you're laying off jams at the start and there's a kind of poor finger jam at the crux (much the hardest move on the route, I thought).

In reply to BloodyJam:
Natural weight range is what you make it, to some extent. I used to be convinced that my natural weight range was 12-12.5 stone, then it crept upwards to 12.5-13, then I decided that enough was enough and changed my diet and redefined my natural weight range to be more like 11-11.5.

{Edit: for reference I'm about 5'11". So you'd expect me to be lighter than you to start off with but its the similar weight range that's what I mean to highlight.}

If you can be 12 stone through running you can also be 12 stone through a different diet which allows you to put the time saved by not running into an extra wall session and 2 extra fingerboard sessions per week. Now that has the potential to really shake things up in your climbing!

In reply to AJM:

Maybe.
Things are good for me at the mo.
However when I struggle next then can try this.