UKC

I haven’t noticed anything about this on here before (I might regret starting this).

There was a tragic accident on Ben Nevis in 2013 when a climber was dropped by helicopter crew and died. Everyone I spoke to was shocked about the rescue. I asked a member of a busy MRT about it afterwards, he was not keen on the RAF methods.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-21599781

This month another casualty was dropped, by Royal Navy this time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34290254

I would have expected accidents like this to have stopped decades ago.

Does anyone know why these accidents are still happening, or have any insight about this problem?

Human error and working in a hazardous environment unfortunately don't recognise a cut off point several decades ago.

In reply to Colin Moody:

The second one was a corpse.

In reply to Jim C:

So?

In reply to Colin Moody:


perhaps folk take less care when moving a corpse? I know I do.

In reply to Colin Moody:

Depends how it was being lifted.

The first link doesn't give any details, in fact I'd you hasn't mentioned it I would have known he had fallen from the chopper

In reply to Colin Moody:

Unfortunately sometimes things happen, you can put as many check and procedures as you want in place but the human and environmental factors will always be variable and the possibility of a mechanical failure will be there too.
I may have read the wrong thing in to it but your OP reads as though you don't think they are good enough and if that is the case I hope if the worse happened to you then you would not seek or accept help from them.
Sounds a bit like the few people who refuse to wear seat belts because "they are dangerous"

In reply to Dax H:




Think you did.

I'm not asking about rescues, just when people are dropped.

In reply to Colin Moody:


I think many would interpret 'casualty' as meaning still alive.

In reply to Colin Moody:
the winchman hanging over a very small boat, in a lake has little choice, but to single or double strop him up. It would be near impossible(there are extreme ways, but it's far from easy and is very time consuming) for a sole winchman to lift an adult into a stretcher, all whilst both are hanging from a wire, with down draft, even in perfect weather conditions in the middle of a lake.

So do you wait longer for ground forces or do you push on? It's risk management, in a potentially high risk environment, high risk injuries etc.. so statistically it simply won't work 100% of the time, but 99+% it does and hundreds owe their lives to it. Whilst you had to trawl back a bit to find these rare events, you probably missed the many 100's, perhaps 1000s, of winch based rescues that worked perfectly.

In reply to Colin Moody:

If you know some facts about the first incident other than those available in various news stories on the Internet, then please reveal them.
As far as I can tell, the incident is still being investigated and perhaps it's best to wait for the results before commenting further...

In reply to summo:


OK.

When I read about the loch rescue last week I was reminded of the Nevis rescue but I see they were different.

In reply to FactorXXX:

I do know more but I'll take your advise and wait.

In reply to Colin Moody:

Since blood, gore and pictures of dead children in the surf are very much the rage these days, here is a video of what happens when the cable snaps during a helicopter rescue. It isn't pleasant.

youtube.com/watch?v=EGoNABSSFGM&

In reply to Colin Moody:

I think you are being very harsh on the rescue services who do a magnificent job. In fact I suggest that your post is totally inappropriate given that the incidents are still under investigation. This is a public forum so the chances are that the crews involved (or someone who knows them) might well read this. Do you have any concept of how they must be feeling, without someone like you, who doesn't know the full facts, posting comments like "I would have expected accidents like this to have stopped decades ago" ?

There has been nothing to suggest that either incident was anything else other than a tragic accident, and your sort of speculation is out of order.

I suggest you ask the Mods to remove this thread until the results of the inquiries are known.

In reply to ByEek:

This one is always shown at our tech rescue seminars.

There is no good way to fall from a helicopter.

In reply to Colin Moody:

I wouldn't worry about it, it'll all be private soon.

In reply to Trangia:

This is the kind of lame post you'd expect to find on FB, not here.

In reply to Trangia:


A reasonable, logical and intelligent comment. I am mystified as to why it is attracting "dislikes"

In reply to Colin Moody:

Slightly diverging from the OP.
I've seen a few vids of climbers being rescued by helicopter and rather than clip the winch into the climbers harness which really shouldn't have any chance of coming loose they always use the under the arm strops.
I'd have thought that clipping the harness would be easier and more secure, does anyone know any particular reason why they don't?

In reply to gethin_allen:

As far as I know the RAF, and now SAR-H, will only use lifting equipment that is inspected and certified by themselves - which a personal harness wouldn't be.

In reply to mp3ferret:

Would that extend to ropes?

In reply to The New NickB:

It extends to everything. I know that Lyon now supply lifting strops for mrt stretchers which are specifically approved by SAR-H. They won't lift a stretcher unless its got the proper strops.

In reply to ByEek:


And the award for Understatement of the Year goes to . . .

In reply to gethin_allen:

I'd have thought that clipping the harness would be easier and more secure, does anyone know any particular reason why they don't?

Wouldn't that risk them flipping upside-down?

In reply to mp3ferret:

I'm trying to remember the details of a rescue I was involved in years ago. I'm sure the RAF winch man was tied in to one of our ropes.

In reply to The New NickB:

Was this is the days before HSO ran the world.

In reply to Removed UserBwox:


You don't fall upside down if you take a fall while climbing (unless you get your foot caught obviously).

In reply to mp3ferret:


Probably not, 1999!

In reply to gethin_allen:

The harness (and other equipment), may have been damaged in the accident.

In reply to gethin_allen:

You don't fall upside down if you take a fall while climbing

A falling climber is generally conscious and able to adjust their body position by grabbing the rope, etc.
An unconscious casualty will hang in the orientation dictated by any external forces that happen to be present. So yes, being flipped upside down in a sit harness is a very real possibility.

In reply to gethin_allen:


refer to No.7 in the top 200 photos on UKC.......
your body overtaking your feet is almost a certainty with crampons n ice etc.

In reply to FactorXXX:


But if you are unconscious you can't hold your arms down as instructed so if you're tied in to a harness which is designed not to slip off in case of an inverted fall then that's better. And surely they would stretcher you out if you were unconscious.

In reply to daWalt:

I think you'd call that extenuating circumstances. But it does prove that harnesses will hold you if you happen to invert.

In reply to gethin_allen:

But if you are unconscious you can't hold your arms down as instructed so if you're tied in to a harness which is designed not to slip off in case of an inverted fall then that's better. And surely they would stretcher you out if you were unconscious.

Never been rescued, so don't know the mechanics of the system used in winching.
However, I do know that being inverted in just a sit harness is incredibly easy and that's why they use chest harnesses in rope access, etc.

In reply to streapadair:



Oh I don't know. There I was in the kitchen one morning sipping coffee and looking at the myriad of photos of my friends kids in their new uniform heading off to the school for the first time and the next thing I see is a picture of dead child about the same age as my youngest in the surf. No warning - nothing. At least you were warned.

In reply to gethin_allen:




Having been winched into the RAF helicopters a few time my take on it is that the RAF (and probably now Bristow) want to keep control on the whole system. The strop can be put on the hook (and safety pin replace) by the winchman and doesn't then need fiddling with by those on the ground, be them trained MRT or a casualty. Connecting to a climbing harness probably adds an extension sling into the system + maybe a chest harness and increases the chance of not getting all bits connected correctly in the heat of the moment.

The winchman does wear a kind of sit harness that is connected by a quick release seat belt like strop. Also I guess being in a strop stops people flapping around and grabbing bits of the aircraft. The cable cut on a seaking is just above the door!!!

In reply to ByEek:

In the Paper, Rock, Scissors of horror, video beats photo.

Possibly stupid question: are the people in that video now dead?

In reply to:

I took one video in the 15 years I was a volunteer in a search and rescue team, it is dull.

youtube.com/watch?v=R5kE0lO62QQ&

In reply to Colin Moody:



Um, your thread title does say "rescues".

And it and your post seem to refer to rescue of living casualties.

In reply to ByEek:

Fair enough. I'd still have watched it if you'd called it unspeakably horrific as I'm not noticeably squeamish.

But, jeeeeez, I wouldn't watch it again if I was paid to. Too close to home, in a sense.

In reply to gethin_allen:

Dont fall upside down when climbing. Really. I've seen a few that went that way.

Off the main point of the post i know.