In reply to paul mitchell:
> ''This concept of ownership of a route by a first ascensionist and that they can go back and add more gear or give people permission to change the route holds no water.
> They have the joy of doing the first ascent, their name in a guidebook and experiencing others repeat their route. It stops there.''
> Really? A UKC blogger decides who owns a route? He also decides when bolts should come out and when they should be left in? Because a posse of vocal bolters decides it's O k to retrobolt,that makes it O k?
> Nobody has yet CLEARLY explained why it is OK to bolt in some places and not in others. Ditto peg protection.Emotion is not logic.
> Paradoxically,some limestone used to be pegged,then bolted.So there is a trad attitude,following history of limestone,that bolts are permissible.So a''trad'' attitude permits bolts;how ironic.Either bolts are right or they are not. Whether on limestone,grit,Gogarth,Glencoe,EL Cap;anywhere. The usual blah is that those routes would never get done or rarely get done,so bolt away. Rarely repeated trad routes are made ''accessible'';basically to climbers incapable of doing them.Accessibility is the only factor in the decision,is it?A bolted trad route is now a bolt route.Bolts are not trad,if we take it back far enough.Let's retrobolt Master's Edge,Indian Face,make them more accessible.Why do some routes have seniority in the spectrum of what can be retrobolted? Beau Geste?Ninth Life? Positron,Enchanted Broccoli Garden?Birkett e8's?Occasionally I will give the nod to somebody retrobolting one of my routes. That is a softening of my stance,in a very specific case.My stance is still anti bolt.This would tend to imply that the first ascensionist SHOULD have some say in retrobolting. Why are bolts accessible on Ravenstor but not on Stanage? Just because a posse,called ''WE'' says so? Who is this godlike WE?Is there an ultimate criterion to decide against the use or non use of bolts,apart from ''concensus'' of some group of brainwashed climbers? What levels of hypocrisy are acceptable? Has it occurred to any retrobolters that bolting just bring overall standards DOWN? Levels of trad on sighting are now pretty feeble,because people are still sucking the tit of bolted routes,instead of weaning themselves to some gnarly trad.
Paul, this is really incoherent, I'm afraid. I can see you feel strongly but it really needs to be re-worked to make it more convincing. And it does seem to be aimed at the wrong post; I'd have said that your quote fully agrees with you?
'paradoxically,some limestone used to be pegged,then bolted'. Nothing paradoxical, simply a recognition of history.
'there is a trad attitude,following history of limestone,that bolts are permissible'. No there is no such attitude.
'Either bolts are right or they are not'. I've some sympathy but would suggest that context is all? 'Right'? 'Wrong'? They are the wrong terms. And bear in mind that we can pontificate about what happens in the UK; are bolts equally 'wrong' in Spain?
For what it's worth I do really agree with you (I think...)
Andy