UKC

Its been a while since they came out now so was wondering if anyone can share any first hand experience of the fuel? Is it closer to a nomic than a fusion, and which one do you reckon is ultimately the best (looking at mainly scottish winter with more of a bias to ice). Currently on quarks which have got me up Vs and a bit of VI, but tempted to make the leap to the next class...is it worth it??

Cheers

In reply to JHolland:

Instead of Nomic, think the Fuel as a lighter Fusion without a hammer.

So, quite nice for ice... perhaps not so nice for (Scottish) mixed.

Pro's
- head and pick attachement
- rigid
- spike for mouschettes and mellow snow
- weight and weight distribution

Con's
- weight and weight distribution
- no hammer/adze
- picks

In reply to HeMa:

Quick hijack...
Are you using them with the fuels with the 'Fusion Ice' pick?

Any noticeable difference/ improvement over the regular fusion pick that was standard on the fusion axes? Does that 2 degrees change make any difference?

In reply to GarethSL:

Hi,

I got Fusions, but tried my friends Fuel.

For Fusion, the pick angle does matter. I'm using something similar to the Fusion Ice pick from Krukonogi, and indeed while they are thicker than the normal picks, because of the angle they work for me really well.

Lasers and Fusions seem to break more ice, because of the pick angle... For me, that is.

In reply to JHolland:

Thanks for the feedback guys...still a bit confused though. From reading about each, nomics are great but are as delicate as a welsh backline player and the head will break if i torque them, fusions are great for steep mixed but obliterate any ice you try to place them in and the fuel doesnt really cover either base as well as a nomic or fusion?

Can anyone expand on this or tell me something to persuade me one way or the other?!!

In reply to JHolland:
I think the point is nothing is perfect, with certain tools being better at certain things. From what I have gathered from friends and my own research when buying new tools, Nomics are as close to the best ice/mixed tool money can buy with one fatal flaw in terms of durability (i.e. loose heads caused by possible design flaw). That being said, I know plenty of people who say they would buy them again despite the durability issue which either says something about the performance of the tool, or perhaps just the contents of their wallet.

I, like you, also have quarks and last year "upgraded" to new more aggressive tools. In the end I decided on Cassin X-Dreams (a couple of good reviews on here: (www.thealpinestart.com). You might consider looking at them (just to throw something different into the mix). I couldn't be happier with them (but still would have bought Nomics if it wasn't for the durability issue).

I can't comment on the fuels, but the reason I bought the X-Dreams was because they seemed to be the closest thing to the Nomics on the market and fusions just seemed too limited as an all rounder.

In reply to JHolland:

I'd stay clear of the Nomics simply because of the durability issues that Brian mentions. I used mine sporadically over the course of 18 months until the heads started creaking. Sent them back to Petzl who confirmed they were f*cked and recommended I retire them with no offer of recompense, because they are apparently marketed as an 'ice tool'...don't get me started.

I've never used them in anger but the fuels always struck me as quite ice-specific. No option to add a hammer, lightweight, supplied with ice pick as standard etc. There again, Helliker & Bracey seem to have been ticking off all sort of modern mixed all over the MB massif & Alaska with the Fuel so what do I know.

If I were you I'd check out the Grivel Tech Machines if you want a do-it-all tool.

In reply to JHolland:
I've tried the fuels and to be honest I was disappointed with the swing. I thought that you still had to hook swing like the fusions to stop the top pick bounce. On a bonus point, they're still bomber. Can't see any reliability issues there. I've had nomics for 2 years with no issues at all bizarrely, and I've given them some stick. As already mentioned, what about the tech machines. If you can get on with the handle you'll be on to a winner.

In reply to alexm198:

My old Nomics (V2) creeked a lot as well and one developed a little bit of pick looseness. I owned the axes for 3 years at a guess before replacing (/ losing) them. Was never sure whether the creeking originated from the pick attachment points or from the bond between the shaft and head. Ie whether replacing all the replacable parts would have made any difference (suspected not).

I must agree despite the above problems with my first Nomics I did replace them with another pair. Essentially because the above problems didn't affect my climbing and the axes were otherwise a floorless performance. I liked the look of the Tech Machines but had got used to the Nomic middle grip, where able to rest the palm on the top of the offset hand when feeling pumped. I found the Tech Machine handle too offset to allow this grip.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/floorless

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/flawless

Apologies!

In reply to neuromancer:

Dyslexia. Spelling atrocious sorry.

What's your weakness? Appears to be winter climbing and all thing related to this forum judging by your logbook...

In reply to JHolland:

This might not be what you want to hear, and it's only an opinion, but if you want an all round Scottish axe why not get a pair of Reactors? Under £100 each at bananafinger, and at that price you can add a big hammer and adze and still have lots of change. You then have a leashless tool, with proper fittings on the head, and a spike, and a hole. Plus you can add some cross-country picks if you want to go mixed - and still have change again. Some self-amalgamating tape around the upper shift turns that into a sound grip.

Granted, they're not as shiny as some of the others, nor as accomplished on really steep stuff, but which aspects of the tools are you really going to use most?

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Boom.

Neuromancer just had his A&&e handed to him.

In reply to smithaldo:

Someone please call 999 and ask for the burns unit.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Yeah I was seriously seriously tempted to replace my knackered nomics with another pair.

I think that part of the problem with Petzl/Lyon's utterly dire customer service regarding this issue is that they know they've made a brilliant pair of tools so they're content to just shaft people in the knowledge that they'll likely just stump up for another pair. Decided to take my custom elsewhere in the end.

Interesting point regarding the Tech Machine handle, I've not used them but I can see that the beefy handle might not be the best for using the secondary grip comfortably.

In reply to nniff:

Nothing wrong with reactors but, just to play devil's advocate, they aren't exactly an upgrade from quarks so, regardless of how cheap they are, going for "budget" option is arguably just money down the drain if the OP's aspirations ultimately lead to wanting a more aggressive tool in the future.

In reply to Brian Pollock:

Of course - couldn't agree more. But aspirations don't necessarily equate with utility. If the aim is to get something new and shiny, then utility doesn't come into it, does it.

In reply to JHolland:

you have some thinking to do! any tool you go for will be a compromise in some way, so you you just have to go with what works for you.
i own a pair of Fuels and Tech-Machines and I have previously owned a pair of Nomic's. The Nomic's are great to use but lack long term durability. I used the Fuels on a few routes on the Ben and found them OK and certainly better that the Fusions. The lack of a hammer/adze is a topic of debate that I suspect may not be easily settled. As I see it, a hammer is only of real benefit if you are placing pegs (obviously) but I can't remember the last time I placed a peg in winter. Also hammers and adze's are far more awkward to use on modern curved tools. In short, the Fuels are great tools and will certainly work as winter/mixed tool despite the lack of a hammer/adze.
The Grivel Tech-Machines feel every bit as well balanced as the Nomic's with the added benefit of being more rugged. The pick angle is certainly wider then on the Fuels so this may mean a more intuitive swing?? The handle feels fine to me but lacks any spacers/adjustment so wont work for everyone. Out of interest does anyone know if a hammer/adze can be fitted to the Tech-Machine?

In reply to Mr. Lee:
Lol. Nice reply lee. The joys of numpties on ukc. Makes you wonder why we bother.

In reply to Piers Harley:
I'm sure you can but only if you use the mix pick. The downside is the pick angle is a lot more aggressive than the ice version.

In reply to neuromancer:
Seriously !! Any need for it ?!

In reply to JHolland:

Thanks for the input everyone, lots of good info here. Just to clarify i will be hanging on to the quarks for alpine routes, looking for something to push my Scottish (and hopefully icefall) grade. Tech machine sounds like it could be a goer, though by the sounds of it i need to hang off one to be sure. Is it that the handles are on the small side, or are they a slightly different shape compared to some?

In reply to JHolland:

Curveball time: I've had a pair of petzl ergos offered cheaply to me. I'd originally dismissed them as being absolutely mental and for people with much bigger balls than me HOWEVER I've since read a couple of reviews (particularly the cold thistle one) which suggest its more usable than it looks on WI4/scottish V and upwards. Any thoughts or should I stcik with looking at the grivels? too much choice in some regards...

In reply to JHolland: for me it's the shape and they feel bulky. As though you hold them more open handed

In reply to JHolland:
I tried ergos on ice and they were too much on anything less than vertical - the angle seemed wrong. Great on overhanging ice chandeliers though. Also, I know someone who uses them for winter climbing at VI and he says he got used to them. Amazing for tooling.

In reply to JHolland:
I've tried the Ergos tooling on roofs and steep routes and they're in their element. On anything vert it feels weird moving up past the tool due to the handle angle. I think you would find them limiting to be honest

In reply to JHolland: obviously as the chap selling these I am biased but you did ask for something to take you further.

It sounds to me like you would keep your quarks for less steep stuff (correct me if I'm wrong) so the tech machine might end up being neither nowt not summat.

I would suggest going to a shop and holding or swinging your various options perhaps?

Dane talks sense on his blog so I would take that with more detail than a couple of comments here perhaps?

As misha said, Scottish vi up is where they would help, which was what you said you wanted them for.

I know Martin Moran uses them

In reply to JHolland:

I've climbed on nomics the last few years but recently moved to fuels as my axes were stolen. I was tiring of the nomics picks being crap to be honest and have felt much better with the fuel. I've found the swing to be pretty similar to the nomic - some minor adjustments but within 20m climbing found how it worked. I don't regret the change at all. I should say I'm out in the alps though so the need for an adze/hammer is a lot less and if I was bashing through the stuff you have up in scotland I might consider something else..

In reply to charleyradcliffe:

Tell him to buy the ergos charlie

To be fair it's pretty obvious the nomics/fuels are the sameish.

Basically as I said earlier , I would swing some and see which ones you like, that will be the best idea.