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Eng v Aus

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 Bob Hughes 02 Oct 2015
So, what do we reckon? The Aussies have had some trouble up front in the pack but have strong back row combination with Hooper and Pocock and have less pressure to win
Lancaster has gone back to a more tried and tested Centre combination with Barritt no longer playing out of position and Joseph coming in at 13. Morgan back at number 8 - hopefully his knee holds out - massive pressure to win but all the pundits saying this is when we play best. Plus of course there's the home side advantage.

I reckon England will squeak it by a few points but it will be close and the aussies will get the losing bonus point.

Australia: Israel Folau; Adam Ashley-Cooper, Tevita Kuridrani, Matt Giteau, Rob Horne; Bernard Foley, Will Genia; Scott Sio, Stephen Moore, Sekope Kepu; Kane Douglas, Rob Simmons; Scott Fardy, Michael Hooper, David Pocock.

Replacements: Tatafu Polota-Nau, James Slipper, Greg Holmes, Dean Mumm, Ben McCalman, Nick Phipps, Matt Toomua, Kurtley Beale.

 galpinos 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

I think Australia will win. Having shown how many penalties England can give away when dominating, let alone when under pressure/panicking they'll get behind, start throwing the ball around and it'll all go to hell in a hand cart.

Is Dan Cole starting? That's six points to the convicts for starters......

 the sheep 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Not sure we will have enough in the centres to worry the Aussie defence. This on the whole looks like a team looking to tick over on penalties rather than outright attack of the try line. Problem is that whilst we may have an edge with the front 5, Hooper and Pocock will be slowing (and possibly steeling) our breakdown ball all game without us being able to compete at the same level. It will be close but I don't see us doing it. Especially if we fade away badly when the subs come on like we did last week. Convicts by 7
OP Bob Hughes 02 Oct 2015
In reply to galpinos:

yeah Cole's starting. He's handy but like you say he needs to stop dropping penalties

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins, 41 caps); 14 Anthony Watson (Bath, 13 caps); 13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath, 14 caps); 12 Brad Barritt (Saracens, 25 caps); 11 Jonny May (Gloucester, 18 caps); 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 33 caps); 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester, 51 caps); 1 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 35 caps); 2 Tom Youngs (Leicester, 26 caps); 3 Dan Cole (Leicester, 54 caps); 4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 26 caps); 5 Geoff Parling (Exeter, 27 caps); 6 Tom Wood (Northampton, 40 caps); 7 Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 41 caps); 8 Ben Morgan (Gloucester, 30 caps)

Replacements 16 Rob Webber (Bath, 15 caps); 17 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 25 caps); 18 Kieran Brookes (Northampton, 14 caps); 19 George Kruis (Saracens, 8 caps); 20 Nick Easter (Harlequins, 52 caps); 21 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 25 caps); 22 George Ford (Bath, 15 caps); 23 Sam Burgess (Bath, 4 caps)
 Postmanpat 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Aussie to win by 10 points. England back row will be outplayed and we'll give away penalties leading to points and field position.Our back row failings are partly why Cole ends up doing things that are not his forte and gives away penalties.

The Aussie backs are very dangerous and their front row seems to have got itself sorted out. Difficult to see where England will dominate.

 Shani 02 Oct 2015
In reply to the sheep:

SL needed to make the phone call to Steffon Armitage. SL should also have spent the last few years sorting out Hartley's behavioural issues!

 Postmanpat 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Shani:

> SL needed to make the phone call to Steffon Armitage. SL should also have spent the last few years sorting out Hartley's behavioural issues!

Probably should have made Hartley captain as part of that process.
 tony 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

> Probably should have made Hartley captain as part of that process.

Didn't seem to make much difference at Northampton.


 Postmanpat 02 Oct 2015
In reply to tony:
> Didn't seem to make much difference at Northampton.

I know,but worth giving it a go. Or maybe's he's just an arse.

The problem is that Robshaw isn't a good enough player to justify a guaranteed place but as captain that is what he's got so we have never addressed the back row problem properly. But there aren't many alternative captaincy candidates.
Post edited at 10:00
 Gazlynn 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

England can beat anyone on their day especially at Twickenham.

I hope England smash the Aussies but I see it a tight affair with England scraping it as their world cup is on the line.
I then predict a reversal in the ko stages.

cheers

Gaz
In reply to Gazlynn:

> I then predict a reversal in the ko stages.

Which could only happen in the final couldn't it? And it would involve one of the teams getting past NZ.

In the event of a points tie, does it get decided on result between the tied teams, or points difference?

Alan
OP Bob Hughes 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

the result between the two teams and if that was a draw, on points difference.
 Postmanpat 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> In the event of a points tie, does it get decided on result between the tied teams, or points difference?

> Alan

The result between teams I believe.
 the sheep 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Shani:

Also not sure what Slade has done to not get a chance yet. He played a blinder in the warm ups!
 Gazlynn 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Sorry I didn't explain myself very well, what I was trying to say in my limited and simplistic view of rugby is that a lot has to do with what's on the line i.e.

England if they lose they are out.

Australia if they lose they would still have another chance of progressing.

If this game was played at the KO stages then I would of predicted an Aussie win.

cheers

Gaz

 Postmanpat 02 Oct 2015
In reply to the sheep:
> Also not sure what Slade has done to not get a chance yet. He played a blinder in the warm ups!

It is odd. One assumes he's doesn't trust Slade in defence because otherwise he could have just replaced Jospeh with Slade against Wales, like for like. Maybe he preferred Burgess because of his greater experience…oh…wait a minute…..
Post edited at 10:43
 Morgan Woods 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

If Australia lose, it think it will be via the scrum or goal kicking which are our perennial weaknesses. But you're right we will probably win the breakdown and that can swing close matches.
In reply to Bob Hughes:

> the result between the two teams and if that was a draw, on points difference.

Which looks like it might be hard on Wales in the event of an England win.

Alan
 andy 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat: I think that not taking Hartley might be one of the bigger mistakes he's made. It looked sensible when he talked about needing three hookers, but when none of them can throw straight, and the first choice is second only to Dan Cole in giving away dumb penalties, I think it would have been a risk worth taking.



 Horse 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

I would love to be wrong about this. I anticipate advising The Boss, cat and kids to go out for the evening, removing all sharp objects from the room before retreating behind the sofa punching a cushion and cuddling an effigy of a snarling Martin Johnson. Australia to win by 10-15.

The current England team lacks big match experience and after last week I suspect they are mentally fragile if not completely broken. Tactically, the coaches bottled the job last week by changing the mid-field from one set up to attack to one set up to defend, it all went tits up. This week the selection has fudged the issue with Farrell and Joseph. Quite what Ford has done wrong, or can't do escapes me, as does whatever it is that Burgess is supposed to do (when he comes on for a part fit Joseph heaven help England). Slade is best off out it so as not to be tainted by the shambles.

The England pack is nowhere near as good as it thinks it is without Hartley and the Australian one is no longer made of the cream cheese that Sheridan dined out on. The Australians are also smart enough and good enough to avoid the sort of forward arm wrestle that might favour the English.
 Webster 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

The england set piece is no longer the world dominating force it used to be (in fact they looked worse than ordinary against fiji), so they cant count on forward dominance. australia have two 7s on the pitch, england have none...so the breakdown will be a pretty 1 sided affair. england have some good atacking threat out wide, but so do the ausies, and a wide fast game will play into australian hands. the only thing england have the upper hand in is goal kicking, which can only win them the game if they are dominating in the tackle area in the right parts of the pitch, which is unlikely...

frankly i cant see an england win, but i am Welsh so kinda biased!

p.s england shot themselves in the foot refusing to pick Armitage, the last world cup demonstrated how important genuine 7s were to a team, and things have only kicked on since then
 Roddytoo 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

England have three forwards who gift the opposition 9 points via penalties. They are experienced 'professionals' yet still make schoolboy mistakes. If this could be avoided, they could win.
 Postmanpat 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:

> The England pack is nowhere near as good as it thinks it is without Hartley and the Australian one is no longer made of the cream cheese that Sheridan dined out on. The Australians are also smart enough and good enough to avoid the sort of forward arm wrestle that might favour the English.

Spot on analysis. If, by some miracle, England are a few points ahead at 65 minutes the Aussies will be confident that with a bit of field position and ball in hand they can force England to panic, and the English will fear that they are right.

OP Bob Hughes 02 Oct 2015
In reply to all:

this thread makes depressing reading - i'd like to think that england of got it in them, plucky brits, twickers, blitz spirit and all that. But they're going to have to be bloody good
 coinneach 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:

Must say it makes a refreshing change for you to be watching from behind the sofa!

That's normally me.
 the sheep 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:
I feel that the supporters would get behind the team as requested by Rimmer if only the team would play what's in front of them!
 Horse 02 Oct 2015
In reply to the sheep:

Don't get me wrong, I am right behind the team (players and coaches) but I can't see this result ending in anything other than a bad defeat.

Also once they are out of the competition I hope there will be a rational and considered look at the failings rather than a knee jerk reaction of sack XYZ. There is some good stuff about the current set up but also some very bad things, keep the former and sort out the latter.
 Postmanpat 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

I'm linking to this explanation by Brian Moore of why England's scrummaging is legal and Australia's mauling is illegal mainly because I love the description of the Aussies as
"cheating shackle draggers"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11906885/...
 tony 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:

> Also once they are out of the competition I hope there will be a rational and considered look at the failings rather than a knee jerk reaction of sack XYZ.

I do love an optimist!
 Horse 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

Moore at his very best.
 tony 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

Interestingly, in comparison with the consensus here, pundits and commentators on both the Guardian and the Telegraph are almost unanimous in giving the win to England. With the not-very-surprising exception of David Campese ...

However, there's a real note of desperation with lots of comments that England 'must win', with the slightly dodgy assumption that that means they will win.
Gone for good 02 Oct 2015
In reply to tony:
> (In reply to Postmanpat)
>
> >
> However, there's a real note of desperation with lots of comments that England 'must win', with the slightly dodgy assumption that that means they will win.

That England 'must' win is a given. Personally I think it will be a very tight game and too important a game for it to be anything other than a knuckle clenching - teeth gritting - backside twitching disappointment of a spectacle with the outcome being decided by yet another penalty in the final few minutes. As to who will win? Toss a coin.
The one very small crumb of comfort is that Australia know that they have to face Wales in their final game who are physically exhausted and probably expect to win that game comfortably thereby meaning a defeat tomorrow wouldnt be the end of the tournament. It could (hopefully) affect their mental approach.
 Postmanpat 02 Oct 2015
In reply to tony:
> Interestingly, in comparison with the consensus here, pundits and commentators on both the Guardian and the Telegraph are almost unanimous in giving the win to England. With the not-very-surprising exception of David Campese ...

>
I was amused by the Telegraph's survey of 10 pundits of whom nine thought England would win and whom eight were English!!

Of course in a lot of close games the media and pundits all give some in depth explanation of the how and why afterwards when in reality it was down to a random bounce, a single missed tackle or sliced kick or similar unaccountable moment.
Post edited at 17:30
 coinneach 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:
Just read the guardian article too.

Every pundit predicting an England win. Not because they're the better side but because " they must"

How many "England Expects" back page headlines tomorrow morning?

No wonder the rest of the world pish themselves when they lose.
 peppermill 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Roddytoo:

> England have three forwards who gift the opposition 9 points via penalties. They are experienced 'professionals' yet still make schoolboy mistakes. If this could be avoided, they could win.

The problem is that the schoolboy mistake when it comes to giving away penalties at the breakdown is usually getting caught. True pros are masters of the 'Dark Arts' of forward play and get away with it.
 Horse 02 Oct 2015
In reply to coinneach:

What are the headlines in English papers supposed to say?

BTW you'll be pleased to know I expect your lot to win and will be supporting them
In reply to Postmanpat:

Actually the pictures of the Aussie rolling maul in that article do make it abundantly clear that their tries against Fiji shouldn't have been allowed.

jcm
In reply to coinneach:

>No wonder the rest of the world pish themselves when they lose.

Eh?! You do know the rest of the quote, right?

jcm
 coinneach 02 Oct 2015
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I know it yes but it's rattled out time after time on every occasion that an English team has a " must win " game.

Not to mention that the fleet it was signalled to was actually " British "
Kipper 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:

>.... ending in anything other than a bad defeat.

Not so sure (I can see an England win and tears in the valleys next week - although they've won their World Cup already).

Just went to look at placing a bet - England 10/11 Australia 5/4 - not really worth either, but England favourites.


 coinneach 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:

The bigger the RWC gets the more the reporting gets like football.

The ITV one eyed coverage doesn't help either.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a true neutral and will be watching the game at home ( in England ) with my English son, English wife and two English mates.

In reply to coinneach:

> I know it yes but it's rattled out time after time on every occasion that an English team has a " must win " game.

Well WTF is your point, then? England expects that every player will do their best. Not that they'll win.

Is it this kind of moronic thinking that leads people to say that every time there's a World Cup there's an outburst of media talk about how England are going to win it, I wonder? I've never understood that. On the contrary it's a national tendency of Englishmen to be very gloomy about their team's prospects.

> Not to mention that the fleet it was signalled to was actually " British "

True!

jcm

In reply to Kipper:

I don't know about that. Australia at 5/4 looks pretty good value to me.

jcm
 FactorXXX 02 Oct 2015
In reply to coinneach:

The ITV one eyed coverage doesn't help either.

The preview show for the England match is on ITV this evening and starts at 7.30pm...
 coinneach 02 Oct 2015
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

My " point" is that it's lazy repetitive journalism .

And also that in spite of the fact that England expects.

They usually get beat.
 coinneach 02 Oct 2015
In reply to FactorXXX:

I rest my case.


:- D
In reply to coinneach:

>My " point" is that it's lazy repetitive journalism .

Oh, I see. Well, if you mean that our media are utter shite then there's no argument here.

However, you went on to say it's no wonder the rest of the world loves us to lose. I don't think that's about our media being shite; they're no worse than everyone else's.

jcm
 Horse 02 Oct 2015
In reply to FactorXXX:

Really? That is plumbing the depths even by ITV standards.

Last week I watched all 3 games, the inability of ITV to talk about anything other than the last one was bloody annoying to say the least. The coverage really is terrible.
 FactorXXX 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:

Really? That is plumbing the depths even by ITV standards.

That was slightly tongue in cheek.
Coverage of the New Zealand/Georgia game is on at 7.30. Kick off is at 8.00, so be interesting what is discussed...
 Horse 02 Oct 2015
In reply to FactorXXX:

I think you can guess, I'll switch on at 8 just in case.
 Dave the Rave 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:
The rugby World Cup final tomorrow night should be a good match.
Thanks to all the other teams for turning up, but no one wanted to watch you really. Hope that you enjoyed the razzmatazz .
England will defo win their second World Cup final tomorrow .
 galpinos 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:

It's worth watching, despite Georgia not being the best team I'm still impressed with NZ. At least Farrell is a better place kicker than Carter......
 Horse 02 Oct 2015
In reply to galpinos:

I am watching now the waffle and dancing is over. I like Georgia.
OP Bob Hughes 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:

The All Blacks hace been making heavy Worldwide of this
 Dr.S at work 02 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

So the consensus from this thread seems to be that Australia 'should win' ?
What an arrogant bunch.
In reply to Dr.S at work:

On that theme, I was amused to note that Wales' first action against Fiji was to kick a penalty to the corner - and score the try.

I wonder if that tosser Eddie Butler will be in the Observer this weekend explaining how Welsh arrogance led to their victory. Somehow I don't think so.

jcm
1
 FactorXXX 02 Oct 2015
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I wonder if that tosser Eddie Butler will be in the Observer this weekend explaining how Welsh arrogance led to their victory. Somehow I don't think so.

Has Eddie Butler accused England of arrogance?
 Tony Jones 02 Oct 2015
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I always look forward to Eddie Butler's erudite commentaries - I take it you don't?
In reply to FactorXXX:

> I wonder if that tosser Eddie Butler will be in the Observer this weekend explaining how Welsh arrogance led to their victory. Somehow I don't think so.

> Has Eddie Butler accused England of arrogance?

Only about every week.

jcm
 Gazlynn 02 Oct 2015
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I can see the headline now "Brave Wales....."

I've been thinking about all this "Arrogant England" discussion this week and as a Welshman coming from a fiercely proud Welsh family why I do sometimes feel that way, I've come to the conclusion that it's a way of quelling a inferiority complex.
One of my earliest memories was watching my Mum crying whilst ironing watching England beat Wales on the TV in the 1974 5 Nations.
I've always enjoyed the banter when going to a live Wales vs England especially Wembley 99 but like it or not the general view amongst my friends and family wrongly and stereotypically is that the typical England rugby fan turns up in his Audi wearing his Barbour jacket and has just picked up Tarquin from some public school. Where us Welsh have just come from a week down the pits and only play rugby to cough up the coal dust so we can breath properly again and run home with the wages so that "Dafydd y gwas" can get the doctor out.

I am getting better though and my mum is too as I've not seen her cry at a sporting event since.

I will be watching the game tomorrow and hope rugby will be the winner.

good luck

Gaz



1
In reply to Gazlynn:
> I've come to the conclusion that it's a way of quelling a inferiority complex.

Well, yes, I think that's the conclusion the English tend to have reached! Chapeau for articulating it though.

Agreed though that in my experience when you meet actual Welsh fans it's a great experience and everyone's very friendly and respectful. I go to Llanelli and now the Scarlets with my father in law and the people are always brilliant. But then that's the same in my experience with every nation, although I confess the Romanian fans have been my favourites so far at this WC.

jcm
Post edited at 23:57
 FactorXXX 03 Oct 2015
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Only about every week.

You either read different articles to me, or choose to read them differently...
 FactorXXX 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

The All Blacks hace been making heavy Worldwide of this

They made an enormous amount of mistakes, but still scored tries at will.
Not sure to be scared or relieved!
 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to FactorXXX:

I reckon that the All Blacks have used up all of their mistakes in one game, to ensure no more happen this WC.
 FactorXXX 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

I reckon that the All Blacks have used up all of their mistakes in one game, to ensure no more happen this WC.

Lets hope not!
In fact, lets hope it's contagious!

OP Bob Hughes 03 Oct 2015
In reply to FactorXXX:

Although to be fair, Georgia did a good Job of putting pressure on them
Donald82 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Gazlynn:

And now they've brainwashed you and stolen your chip!
Donald82 03 Oct 2015
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> On that theme, I was amused to note that Wales' first action against Fiji was to kick a penalty to the corner - and score the try.

> I wonder if that tosser Eddie Butler will be in the Observer this weekend explaining how Welsh arrogance led to their victory. Somehow I don't think so.

Er.. "First action"... Not three points down, three minutes Togo.

Not that i think arrogance had anything to do with the decision against Wales. Rob Shaw strikes me as a bit thick.
 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:


> Not that i think arrogance had anything to do with the decision against Wales. Rob Shaw strikes me as a bit thick.

Ah, but I thought it was all about England's arrogance? Still, it does sound like Robshaw is not the most gifted academically, not your stereotypical English Public Schoolboy progression to England Captain though...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11872531/The-ma...
Donald82 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Not that decision. Or the players at all really.
Donald82 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Nothing to with being academically bright. He just doesn't sound or play like an intelligent rugby player. By way of contrast, I don't imagine Rooney did too well at school but he's an intelligent footballer.
 galpinos 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

I dreamt it was 9-8 to England after 72mins last night. Not sure I could cope with that kind of tension in real life!
 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

> Not that decision. Or the players at all really.

So the supporters, who on the main in this thread appear to expect an Australian win?
Donald82 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Some supporters, but more the people that run the game. And it's not about expecting to win all the time. Obviously you do get your stereotypical braying tw*ts or blazer-ed types but they're not the majority. The more common thing is a bit more subtle. It's things like appointing inexperienced managers when there are much better foreign coaches available. It's seeing losses as about England being bad and wins as about england being good. It's thinking we should, with our current team, be much better than Wales despite that they've plenty layers who would start for England.

Anyway, good luck for today. Hopefully see you in the quarters
 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

Likewise!

 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Great effort by Japan, now if Scotland can overcome SA......
 Horse 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Top result, that Pool is at least as interesting as Pool A. Scotland win could ultimately see the Saffers going home and Eddies lads going through. Come on Scotland get yer proverbial fingers out.
 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:

Looking bleak for Japan now, can't really see Samoa beating this Scotland side.
 Horse 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Indeed, shame really as Japan lit the competition up.
Donald82 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Scrums not on top. You're beat
 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

Sod the scrums, that Australian back play is beautiful - great switch of direction for the second try.
 Horse 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

That one was real class.
 Postmanpat 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Two key turnovers, scrum penalties. Oz make their chances and take them. We lose the ball.
1
 galpinos 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

All credit to Australia. They look properly dangerous every time their hands are on the ball, hitting the line at pace, great hands and fantastic lines of running.

England have made their half breaks but no support runners mean it comes to nothing. It's also driving me nuts that England won't commit an extra man or two at the breakdown to ensure quick ball, or even just ensure we keep the ball!
 Horse 03 Oct 2015
In reply to galpinos:

It will get worse.
 Postmanpat 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:
Great, now we have two donkeys in the centre and JJ on the wing…sheesh
Post edited at 21:06
OP Bob Hughes 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

Yeah You beat me to it.... Half time changes not promising
 Postmanpat 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Morgan anonymous
 galpinos 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Get in! Who'd have thought it, stretching the Aussie defence from one side of the pitch to the over would create gaps! Great finish though and Ford has really made a difference.
 Yanis Nayu 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Early holiday for the England team then.
OP Bob Hughes 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

That's it
 Horse 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

They've been given a lesson by a far, far better side.
 Postmanpat 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Well beaten by a better side.. The Wales game was the problem.
Kipper 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

> That's it

"What did I do wrong Sir?"

"You were shit."

 Indy 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

> So, what do we reckon?

Oh Wank!
 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

> Well beaten by a better side.. The Wales game was the problem.

Superb from Australia - they looked awesome in all phases by the end, very much potential champions.
Hard to see beyond the SH, Ireland the only hope for the North?

( and for Welsh fans who feel that's harsh, good luck next week to your team, but not to you)
4
 La benya 03 Oct 2015
In reply to

Anyone else think robshaw shouldn't even be in the squad let alone captain?
He's nowhere near world class as a back row. How many times did he disrupt their ball at the breakdown? Or make any yards? Or hold any players up?
As for a captain, he doesn't enforce his players discipline or get in the refs ear when he needs to.
He needs to go and take our front row with him.
 Gazlynn 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:
> ( and for Welsh fans who feel that's harsh, good luck next week to your team, but not to you)

Thanks

What about the week after?

cheers

Gaz
Post edited at 22:29
 Dave the Rave 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:
I managed to endure the last 30 mins. What a pointless pointless game. The refs on his phone more than me mrs! The players don't have to lie down and act injured, the rules make it more unwatchable than proper football.' Ooh he had his arms the wrong way around you. Must be a penalty!' Sack of shite.
At least prince Harry is probably less happy than me at the moment.
Why is his brother wearing a welsh shirt? Was he told to do that?
Anyway. MOTD is on soon for any converts? It's a good game. Simple rules for simple folk . And they have nets
4
 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Gazlynn:

> Thanks


In total honesty I really like the Welsh team - have for the last 5 or 6 years. But a few of my Welsh mates post updates from Welsh rugby sites on FB and the anti-English bile is amazing, my favourite this weekend being somebody who genuinely thought Stuart Hogg was English because he cheated!
Kipper 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> .... Ireland the only hope for the North?

Probably, the way this World Cup has panned out, but not really...


 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Gazlynn:

> Thanks

> What about the week after?

> cheers

> Gaz

Good luck to the Welsh team whenever they play - a class act.
 Gazlynn 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:
He must be after that dive earlier today

I too have Welsh friends that have been moaning that England have had a week to recover before every game were Wales haven't had that luxury and a lot of other tosh belittling England but as I'm sure you know deep down I also have Scottish, Irish, Australian, Irish and many other nations rugby fans who love to slag off England. Unfortunately it comes with the package of being an England fan in almost all sport.


This whole group has been a bit of a joke really with 4 of the top 9 teams in the world in the same group.

I would of liked to say unlucky tonight but you weren't and I don't want to sound patronising.

So I'm going to bow out and say nothing, My only hope is that this WC continues with great crowds and great rugby.

cheers

Gaz
Post edited at 22:47
In reply to Dr.S

> my favourite this weekend being somebody who genuinely thought Stuart Hogg was English because he cheated!

Whereas my favourite was the Welsh referee who took him to task.....
In reply to Gazlynn:

Gaz

Onto better things - are we still up for February (I'm looking like bringing a couple of people with me)?

Martin
 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Gazlynn:

I totally agree, England not at the races today.
Sadly I can't see Wales turning Australia over next week despite my admiration of Warbs et al. And that then gives Wales a tough next game.
 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Martin not maisie:

Best Ref in the World?
In reply to Dr.S at work:

I think a stray question mark made it into your post.......
 Gazlynn 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Martin not maisie:

Sounds good to me Mucker
 balmybaldwin 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

By a country mile if you mean Mr Owens.

Today's classic "if you want to dive like that come back here in 2 weeks"
 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Martin not maisie:

I always struggled with punctuation
In reply to Gazlynn:

I'll give you a bell tomorrow: still being a gracious victor in the pub.
 teflonpete 03 Oct 2015
In reply to balmybaldwin:

> By a country mile if you mean Mr Owens.

> Today's classic "if you want to dive like that come back here in 2 weeks"

That was brilliant, cracked me up. :-D

In reply to balmybaldwin:

> By a country mile if you mean Mr Owens.

> Today's classic "if you want to dive like that come back here in 2 weeks"

I think I may carry that moment with me forever
 Gazlynn 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> I totally agree, England not at the races today.

> Sadly I can't see Wales turning Australia over next week despite my admiration of Warbs et al. And that then gives Wales a tough next game.

I agree as it's looking like South Africa or Argentina and to be honest before this afternoons match I would of preferred us to play the Saffers but now I'm not so sure.

cheers

Gaz


 Gazlynn 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Martin not maisie:

> I'll give you a bell tomorrow: still being a gracious victor in the pub.

Great Martin.

cheers

Gaz

 Horse 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Gazlynn:

The Saffers did look good today, big, powerful and fast.
 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Martin not maisie:

Yep, but great picture to be fair.
Anyway Japanse malt and to bed.
Donald82 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Yup! My point was if England aren't bosding the scrum they've no chance.

Interestingly, England were getting called for scrum things theu were doing against Wales today. No idea which is right... but id the reg jgad been the same for Wales England would have had s bit of a hiding
 Dr.S at work 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

Doubt it - the Welsh back line really has suffered badly from injury/ disruption, and Wales struggled up front against Fiji whereas England and Australia had parity.
Jethin is a spent force I think.
Donald82 03 Oct 2015
In reply to mark_wellin:
> In reply to

> Anyone else think robshaw shouldn't even be in the squad

This has been so obvious to the rest of the world for however many years he's been captain. He's gash...

Question though, do Engodland have any propet openside flankers?
Post edited at 23:15
 balmybaldwin 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Gazlynn:

> I agree as it's looking like South Africa or Argentina and to be honest before this afternoons match I would of preferred us to play the Saffers but now I'm not so sure.

> cheers

> Gaz

Think SA made a good case to being a match for the all blacks today. Gutted for Japan as its looking v hard now to them to get out of the group.
Donald82 03 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Er, they beat you with a terrible scrum. Surely you might exprct them to win by more if their scrum was good?
In reply to balmybaldwin:

> Gutted for Japan as its looking v hard now to them to get out of the group.

I dunno - I think they'll struggle against Samoa.
In reply to Donald82:

> This has been so obvious to the rest of the world for however many years he's been captain. He's gash...

Don't agree: Robshaw's a decent player and an excellent captain. He was unfortunate tonight in being up against a side which can call on the two best number sevens in the world. At the same time. Which seems revolutionary now, but will be the norm over the next couple of years: the back rows are going to be faster and more mobile, and the old-style number eights will be squeezed out.
 Dr.S at work 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:
Sorry, I meant that the refs calls last week were right, the Welsh scrum was worse than the English, not that if the Welsh had a dominant scrum they would not have done better last week.
 solomonkey 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Is it that time again ,,, yawn
 Yanis Nayu 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob Hughes:

How did we end up with a group of 3 of the best sides in the world in it? Doesn't app to be great organisation.
 peppermill 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I think Wales had a bad run due to most of their top guys being injured at the same time just before the pools were organised and fell out of the 'Tier 1' category.
Donald82 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Martin not maisie:

Maybe the game is going that way, but everyone except England plays a proper open side and have done for ages. In any other country there would have been calls for Robshaw to be dropped years ago. He's rubbish as an openside all the time. He'd probably be rubbish as a six too. He seems to thick to be a good captain.

Donald82 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:
Sorry, the welsh scrum being worse doesn't mean England weren't cheating.

My take on what;s happened is that Marler was cheating v Wales and got away with it, so England's scrum dominated. This was called in the media in the week and Marler was trying not to do it, and then did and was penalised, so England's scrum didn't dominate against the aussies.

Therefore - if England hadn't got away with cheating against Wales they'd have been on to a hiding.

Not really sure how you could disagree with that.
Post edited at 08:52
Donald82 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Yeah, Wales ended up in pot three and samoa in pot two. Probably a quirk of the rankings but samoa can be good on their day.

 Dr.S at work 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

> My take on what;s happened is that Marler was cheating v Wales and got away with it, so England's scrum dominated. This was called in the media in the week and Marler was trying not to do it, and then did and was penalised, so England's scrum didn't dominate against the

I think there is a bit more to scrummaging then whether the England loose head 'cheats, or not. By the Welsh scrums own high standards they have a weak front three at the moment. England by no means dominated them at the scrum last week however, just had a slight edge there by fair means or foul.

Wales also struggled against Fiji - as did England, making the point that neither scrummaging unit is especially hot at the moment.

Australia blew England away at the scrum in this match, in part by stepping away from Marler which inevitably makes him angle in and lead to some penalties, but also through good power and technique - some of the scrums in the second half were awesome.

> Therefore - if England hadn't got away with cheating against Wales they'd have been on to a hiding.
> Not really sure how you could disagree with that.
Because the Scrum was not the only area of superiority for England during most of last weeks game, and the disruption to the Welsh back line would have made it hard for them to score so many points as Australia. However I guess we have slightly different views of the game.

One of the best things about this World Cup has been the Scrums - so much better with the new rules, far fewer collapses, and the return of some proper hooking a la Japan. It's really exposed some players and teams who did well under the old rules but have struggled to adapt - England are prime examples there.
Donald82 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

One prop getting the better of his opposite man can make all the difference to the scrum. Struggling to keep possession and giving away penalties at the scrum makes a big difference to games. Obviously Wales aren't as good as Australia and you can never know what would happen, but you'd expect Wales to have won by more than the England had been called for penalties at the scrum. Perhaps 'onto a hiding' is a bit strong though.

Scrums have been better at this World Cup. The rugby generally has been really good.

 Dr.S at work 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

> One prop getting the better of his opposite man can make all the difference to the scrum. Struggling to keep possession and giving away penalties at the scrum makes a big difference to games.

You reckon?

> Scrums have been better at this World Cup. The rugby generally has been really good.

Yep, as a mostly-retired prop I've been really enjoying it
Donald82 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> You reckon?

Yes

> Yep, as a mostly-retired prop I've been really enjoying it

But my front row experience is limited to school boy sevens and tens so you'll know better than me.
 Horse 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Dr.S at work:

The scrums have generally been good. It seems the new engagement protocol has worked, the refs seem better at policing it and the players have got the message to stop p*ssing about. It does now look more of a contest and the power merchants are not having it all their own way as the ancient art of hooking makes a come back, a good thing.

It must be quite worrying for the rest of the competition to see Australia embracing the scrum as a potent attacking option rather than just a means to restart the game. Last night they were very good, not just the front row they were playing as a full blown 8. No one likes to see their side going backwards and being generally stuffed but it has to be said the Australian pack was a thing of beauty, especially second half. I'd imagine Mario Ledesma was looking pretty content last night.
 Horse 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Martin not maisie:

> Whereas my favourite was the Welsh referee who took him to task.....

For anyone who missed it:

youtube.com/watch?v=UALBv9TZMlA&
 Postmanpat 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:
> Maybe the game is going that way, but everyone except England plays a proper open side and have done for ages. In any other country there would have been calls for Robshaw to be dropped years ago. He's rubbish as an openside all the time.
>
I thought you lived in Scotland, not Mars. People have been calling for Robshaw to be dropped, usually to be replaced by Armitage, ever since he was picked. The problem (apart from the fact that Lancaster likes him) is that Armitage plays in France and there aren't any stand out alternatives.

And as for all your theory about picking a Englishman to coach England being a sign of arrogance. Really? I mean, really?
Post edited at 12:24
Donald82 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

> I thought you lived in Scotland, not Mars. People have been calling for Robshaw to be dropped, usually to be replaced by Armitage, ever since he was picked. The problem (apart from the fact that Lancaster likes him) is that Armitage plays in France and there aren't any stand out alternatives.

I read the papers I've not seen much of that. And there must be an openside flanker that plays in england...

> And as for all your theory about picking a Englishman to coach England being a sign of arrogance. Really? I mean, really?

if your options are johnson and lancaster it's certainly stupid
 Coel Hellier 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:

> It does now look more of a contest and the power merchants are not having it all their own way as the ancient art of hooking makes a come back, a good thing.

We also need:

* The banning of "feeding" the scrum (why are referees fairly vigilant about not-straight line-out throws, but oblivious to blatant feeding?).

* Downgrading of all scrum offences to free kicks rather than penalties.

* And while we're on, an end to the automatic penalising of anyone dropping the ball, regardless of whether it went forward.
 Postmanpat 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:
> I read the papers I've not seen much of that. And there must be an openside flanker that plays in england...

It's been an ongoing sub plot.

A world class "scavenger"? Who?

> if your options are johnson and lancaster it's certainly stupid

Certainly stupid in the case of Johnson and, with hindsight, a mistake in the case of Lancaster. But that is a completely different argument to attributing it to "arrogance", which is just a lazy cliche.
Post edited at 12:52
Donald82 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

I think is to do with an arrogance... maybe not though.

You must have a better seven than robshaw.
 Horse 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> * The banning of "feeding" the scrum (why are referees fairly vigilant about not-straight line-out throws, but oblivious to blatant feeding?).

I think the current interpretation from World Rugby is that the ball has to go in the tunnel. A start I suppose.

 Postmanpat 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:

> I think the current interpretation from World Rugby is that the ball has to go in the tunnel. A start I suppose.

Law 20:6 "The scrum half must throw in the ball straight along the middle line, so that it first touches the ground immediately beyond the width of the nearer prop’s shoulders."

I don't actually see much room for any "interpretation" of this!!
 Postmanpat 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

> I think is to do with an arrogance... maybe not though.
>
I would regard it as normal and patriotic that every country prefers to have a national as their team coach or manager. Those that don't have usually gone through much heart searching before they take the plunge, and usually do so because there is no suitable home grown alternative.

Because of the larger number of professional teams and therefore coaches in the UK there is better chance of England being able to find a suitable home grown candidate. If they've chosen badly it would hardly be be the only embarrassing cock up they've made in the past twenty years. The time may have come when, like Wales, Ireland and Scotland before them, they have to acknowledge that they have run out of options outside the southern hemisphere.

If that is the case we should all then be asking the more important question of why the UK cannot produce world class rugby coaches.
Donald82 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

They were so obviously not experienced enough. So you were at the point of pick someone rubbish or swallow your pride. They didn't fancy swallowing and now they've got a royal pumping. Pride comes before a fall. So to speak

And they're still thinking about keeping him!!!!
 winhill 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

> I thought you lived in Scotland, not Mars.

It's another one of Iain Ridgway's demonic, filibustering personas isn't it?

So still in America, that's why he doesn't see the English commentaries.
Donald82 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

> I would regard it as normal and patriotic that every country prefers to have a national as their team coach or manager. Those that don't have usually gone through much heart searching before they take the plunge, and usually do so because there is no suitable home grown alternative.

Ps just to be clear. I'm saying there were no home grown candidates.

also, next Scotland coach will be townsend. Because he's good enough and experienced enough

 coinneach 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:



> If that is the case we should all then be asking the more important question of why the UK cannot produce world class rugby coaches.

Ian McGeechan

Jim Telfer
 coinneach 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

I agree but he needs to coach outside of Scotland for a couple of seasons first.
 FactorXXX 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

Because of the larger number of professional teams and therefore coaches in the UK there is better chance of England being able to find a suitable home grown candidate. If they've chosen badly it would hardly be be the only embarrassing cock up they've made in the past twenty years.

Dean Ryan on Scrum V this evening had and interesting take on this.
He says that Lancaster should go and that England should select the best coach from anywhere in the world.
He also raised the question on who actually selects the coaches, as the last two have obviously not been any good...
 Horse 04 Oct 2015
In reply to coinneach:

I can think of a couple of probable opportunities coming up in the near future, may as well bung in his CV.
 coinneach 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:

He's too good to take over from Stuart.
 Postmanpat 04 Oct 2015
In reply to coinneach:

> Ian McGeechan

> Jim Telfer

Nearly 20 years ago!!!!
 Postmanpat 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

> They were so obviously not experienced enough. So you were at the point of pick someone rubbish or swallow your pride. They didn't fancy swallowing and now they've got a royal pumping. Pride comes before a fall. So to speak

>
They picked MJ because they got suckered by media pressure, and SL because he was perceived to have done a good job with the B team and as the temporary coach. As a candidate to rebuild the team ethic and structure he was entirely an logical but bold choice.
 Postmanpat 04 Oct 2015
In reply to FactorXXX:

> He also raised the question on who actually selects the coaches, as the last two have obviously not been any good...

I blame Rob Andrew. Conspicuous by his absence today, as usual when the shit hits the fan
 Horse 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

> SL because he was perceived to have done a good job with the B team and as the temporary coach. As a candidate to rebuild the team ethic and structure he was entirely an logical but bold choice.

He was successful with the Saxons and the U20 team and therefore was well placed to know the potential young players coming through the system.

On the second point there can't be much doubt he has been successful.
 Postmanpat 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

> also, next Scotland coach will be townsend. Because he's good enough and experienced enough

Less coaching experience than Lancaster
when he took over. So just a matter of opinion.

 coinneach 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

Aye but he's actually won something.
 Postmanpat 04 Oct 2015
In reply to coinneach:

> Aye but he's actually won something.

Who?
 coinneach 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

Townsend
 Postmanpat 04 Oct 2015
In reply to coinneach:

> Townsend

Not exactly Hansen , Gatland or even Jones is he?! England could pick Mallinder
Or McAll etc on that basis.
Donald82 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

> Not exactly Hansen , Gatland or even Jones is he?! England could pick Mallinder

> Or McAll etc on that basis.

well why didn't they?
Donald82 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:


> Less coaching experience than Lancaster

He's won a proper league with a team from Scotland.


Donald82 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:


> He was successful with the Saxons and the U20 team and therefore was well placed to know the potential young players coming through the system.

> On the second point there can't be much doubt he has been successful.

b team and the under 20s? jesus. I can't believe you think it was reasonable to appoint him
 Postmanpat 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

> well why didn't they?

For the reasons explained above
Donald82 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Postmanpat:

> They picked MJ because they got suckered by media pressure, and SL because he was perceived to have done a good job with the B team and as the temporary coach. As a candidate to rebuild the team ethic and structure he was entirely an logical but bold choice.

no offence but I don't really know what to say to that. you have no clue!
 Postmanpat 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

> He's won a proper league with a team from Scotland.

How's he done in the Heineken?
Donald82 04 Oct 2015
In reply to coinneach:

> I agree but he needs to coach outside of Scotland for a couple of seasons first.

yeah, probably be better if he did.
 Postmanpat 04 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

> no offence but I don't really know what to say to that. you have no clue!

You could say something like: yes and he did those things well but his lack of tactical nouse left him unable to turn that into top level success. Easy u see if you have an open mind
 FactorXXX 05 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

well why didn't they?

Because the RFU wanted an English coach and similarly, they wanted only players playing for English teams to be realistically considered for national selection.
Maybe both of those criteria will now change and to be honest, if England want to realise their full potential, then that is what they'll have to do.
Lancaster was originally a 'stop gap' coach for the Six Nations, but he was deemed to have done just enough to be given an extra chance. I personally think that by luck more than judgement, he did enough to make it very difficult to justify replacing him. His whole mantra was about building and developing for the world cup and I suppose, once he'd gone beyond a certain time frame, it would be almost impossible to replace him without serious disruption.
People say that he is humble and willing to accept blame, etc. However, it's quite startling to hear that he's still commenting about the age of his players and how maybe as a team, they weren't quite at their peak, etc. He's had nearly four years to do a job and failed dismally. To put it into perspective, Cheika has done the same in a year...
OP Bob Hughes 05 Oct 2015
In reply to FactorXXX:

> However, it's quite startling to hear that he's still commenting about the age of his players and how maybe as a team, they weren't quite at their peak, etc. He's had nearly four years to do a job and failed dismally. To put it into perspective, Cheika has done the same in a year...

I read those comments as him giving support to his boys - it certainly doesn't look like he has missed just how big of a failure it is. I wouldn't be surprised to see him step down voluntarily.

 tony 05 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

> also, next Scotland coach will be townsend. Because he's good enough and experienced enough

God help us no!
 Cú Chullain 05 Oct 2015
Any news lads?
 Horse 05 Oct 2015
In reply to Donald82:

It was a statement of fact, not opinion. I have not expressed an opinion either way.

A knee jerk reaction of sack the lot is unlikely, of itself, to be of any benefit either in the short or the long term. What is required is a long, hard and honest look at what went wrong and why. In that review there is plenty in the credit column for the current England coaching set up. There are also some very serious questions that need asking regarding the squad selection in general and the approach to the Welsh game (that is the one that stuffed England, not Australia) in particular. The RFU alone probably shouldn't be trusted with the task, they should involve someone like Ian McGeechan. That review should consider all options that address the problems identified.

It is very easy to sit there and say this or that should have happened or should now happen without really taking account of inconvenient facts. I assume you are aware that when originally appointed Lancaster actually wanted and tried to get Wayne Smith (look him up) as part of the coaching team. I also assume you are aware why he turned it down. The policy of not picking overseas players isn't a matter directly for the England coaching team. It is part of a deal between the RFU and the premiership clubs. The latter are unlikely to take kindly to a change in policy; without their consent the relatively peaceful relationship (of recent times) between the RFU, England team and clubs is likely to breakdown. Were that to happen it would be hugely detrimental to England team and undo many, many years hard work.

There are also some rather more practical issues to consider. The current coaching team is contracted to 2020 so getting shot of them is not going to be easy or cheap (assuming they don't voluntarily hand in the coaching manual). Also how many of the available coaches are proven winners at the elite international level? By which I mean 6N, Rugby Championship or World Cup not the Pro 12 or even the Premiership etc. It is a pretty short, short list. The list might get extended a bit if 1 or 2 others could be bought out of their existing commitments but I doubt it would get to more than 3.


 coinneach 05 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:

I feel sorry for Lancaster. He comes over as a decent guy ( he came to up to our club last season for a tournament with his son's club and spent time with a lot of the kids).

He was the right person to sort out the off the field problems after the shambles in NZ last time out.

As you say, who would the RFU replace him with if they did sack him?
Donald82 05 Oct 2015
In reply to Horse:

> It was a statement of fact, not opinion. I have not expressed an opinion either way.

Reads likea statement of fact in support of an opinion. But hey ho

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