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Llanddulas Cave
Just got back from Llanddulas Cave to find to my dismay 6 quickdraws stolen from a line I've been trying. The line is a horizontal roof route and thus hard to strip. Someone's clipsticked up and shuffled along pinching them. This has knocked the wind right out my sails and really makes me despair. If anyone can tell me who it was I'm happy to pay a £300 reward.
Just got back from Llanddulas Cave to find to my dismay 6 quickdraws stolen from a line I've been trying. The line is a horizontal roof route and thus hard to strip. Someone's clipsticked up and shuffled along pinching them. This has knocked the wind right out my sails and really makes me despair. If anyone can tell me who it was I'm happy to pay a £300 reward.
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In reply to doylo:
Is this a contract on their life, or do we just need to name them for the £300
> Just got back from Llanddulas Cave to find to my dismay 6 quickdraws stolen from a line I've been trying. The line is a horizontal roof route and thus hard to strip. Someone's clipsticked up and shuffled along pinching them. This has knocked the wind right out my sails and really makes me despair. If anyone can tell me who it was I'm happy to pay a £300 reward.
Is this a contract on their life, or do we just need to name them for the £300
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In reply to doylo:
Really sad, hope you catch the culprit, there are some idiots who just don't get it in North Wales at the moment....
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=625633
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=622783
Really sad, hope you catch the culprit, there are some idiots who just don't get it in North Wales at the moment....
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=625633
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=622783
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In reply to Fraser:
How did you know they were Phantom quickdraws??????
I claim my £300 Reward
> Good luck getting them back. That's bad karma to the phantom thief!
How did you know they were Phantom quickdraws??????
I claim my £300 Reward
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In reply to doylo:
Oh ! Ok, , it is just that where I come from, £300 quid reward would indicate that you want the culprit to have a slow death.
> No I don't want them dead. I just want to ask for my quickdraws back.
Oh ! Ok, , it is just that where I come from, £300 quid reward would indicate that you want the culprit to have a slow death.
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In reply to Jim C:
Death by quickdraw (slowly)
> Oh ! Ok, , it is just that where I come from, £300 quid reward would indicate that you want the culprit to have a slow death.
Death by quickdraw (slowly)
In reply to doylo:
It was me.
I'm sorry. I will post them back if you send me the address and the £300.
It was me.
I'm sorry. I will post them back if you send me the address and the £300.
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In reply to doylo:
They are both liars and honest!!. I took them!!!! (at least I'm an honest thief). I only want £200.
Please send to Mr D Perry,,,,.....
They are both liars and honest!!. I took them!!!! (at least I'm an honest thief). I only want £200.
Please send to Mr D Perry,,,,.....
In reply to Dave Perry:
Much as I hate races to the bottom, I really did take them but I'll send them back almost new and for only £100.
Much as I hate races to the bottom, I really did take them but I'll send them back almost new and for only £100.
In reply to Dave Perry:
Actually it was probably these guys - under £40 if you collect.
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/wild-country-xenon-quickdraw-10cm-5-pack-p12328...
Actually it was probably these guys - under £40 if you collect.
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/wild-country-xenon-quickdraw-10cm-5-pack-p12328...
Post edited at 15:29
To clarify a little, over the past 5 or so years there has been a depressingly regular series of thefts of expensive bolt hangers, lower-off rings and quickdraws from limestone and slate crags in N.Wales. It's likely to just be one or two people doing all the damage and it must be someone with a climbing background just by virtue of from where the gear has been stolen.
When Chris discovered that his quickdraws had been stolen he said he'd offer £100 for information that identified the thief and got him his draws back. I told him I'd match his offer, and that Onsight Publishing (N.Wales Limestone guidebook) would also match the offer. Thus making £300. A free flight and trip to a Spanish/French sport crag anyone?
My intention for matching Chris's offer was to create an attractive incentive for somebody who suspects they know who's been going round stealing hardware (quickdraws, rings or hangers) from climbs in N.Wales. I think it's reasonably likely that it's the same person who stole Doylo's quickdraws.
The offer doesn't apply as a cheers-easy 'here's your draws where's my cash'... - though their discreet return would obviously be a good thing. Only information which identifies the hardware thief will be rewarded. Hopefully then we can see if they're in possession of any other expensive hardware which isn't theirs.
N.walians spread the word and let's see if someone knows anything.
When Chris discovered that his quickdraws had been stolen he said he'd offer £100 for information that identified the thief and got him his draws back. I told him I'd match his offer, and that Onsight Publishing (N.Wales Limestone guidebook) would also match the offer. Thus making £300. A free flight and trip to a Spanish/French sport crag anyone?
My intention for matching Chris's offer was to create an attractive incentive for somebody who suspects they know who's been going round stealing hardware (quickdraws, rings or hangers) from climbs in N.Wales. I think it's reasonably likely that it's the same person who stole Doylo's quickdraws.
The offer doesn't apply as a cheers-easy 'here's your draws where's my cash'... - though their discreet return would obviously be a good thing. Only information which identifies the hardware thief will be rewarded. Hopefully then we can see if they're in possession of any other expensive hardware which isn't theirs.
N.walians spread the word and let's see if someone knows anything.
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In reply to pjh:
Hi
Fully support that - and, for clarity, I think everyone making the "I'm Spartacus" noises above understood it as well!
Hope you get the low-life scumbag.
Hi
Fully support that - and, for clarity, I think everyone making the "I'm Spartacus" noises above understood it as well!
Hope you get the low-life scumbag.
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In reply to doylo:
I'd almost go so far as to state that the perpetrator/s are professionals - Thieves !!!!
I'd almost go so far as to state that the perpetrator/s are professionals - Thieves !!!!
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In reply to pjh:
I've spotted a few such reports and the thought that goes through my head each time is: "is it theft, or is it someone with a grievance about bolting?"
I've spotted a few such reports and the thought that goes through my head each time is: "is it theft, or is it someone with a grievance about bolting?"
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In reply to captain paranoia:
You mean common everyday scum or it could be self righteous scum ,
Total arseholes either way - with any luck
karma will strike them down and they will wonder why
You mean common everyday scum or it could be self righteous scum ,
Total arseholes either way - with any luck
karma will strike them down and they will wonder why
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In reply to pjh:
New angle on the thread - how about setting up a reward pot local climbers can throw into help raise the total make it more attractive naming and shaming the scumbags ? I'll happily chuck in £50 towards the price on their neck !
New angle on the thread - how about setting up a reward pot local climbers can throw into help raise the total make it more attractive naming and shaming the scumbags ? I'll happily chuck in £50 towards the price on their neck !
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In reply to Dave Perry:
What about 'bait caves' with ( concealed) cameras to catch the culprits in the act.
> I'd almost go so far as to state that the perpetrator/s are professionals - Thieves !!!!
What about 'bait caves' with ( concealed) cameras to catch the culprits in the act.
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In reply to Jim C:
The thieving b'stards would probably make off with them too!
> What about 'bait caves' with ( concealed) cameras to catch the culprits in the act.
The thieving b'stards would probably make off with them too!
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In reply to broken spectre:
It did happen with our local school who put up cameras to deter vandals that were stolen, however, they were visable (to deter thieves) but did not.
That is why I said concealed cameras.
> The thieving b'stards would probably make off with them too!
It did happen with our local school who put up cameras to deter vandals that were stolen, however, they were visable (to deter thieves) but did not.
That is why I said concealed cameras.
In reply to Jim C:
Avon and Somerset police did something like this and put "capture cars" in vehicle crime hot spots. There would be hidden cameras in the cars and goodies laid out in full view in the vehicle, sat navs, laptops etc, they would have trackers in them. They caught quite a few car thieves.
This sort of think is depressing to hear about, Ken Palmer from memory had all of his draws taken from Brian when he was working it, you would have thought that climbers would have had far more respect. I guess there are bad apples in every barrel.
Avon and Somerset police did something like this and put "capture cars" in vehicle crime hot spots. There would be hidden cameras in the cars and goodies laid out in full view in the vehicle, sat navs, laptops etc, they would have trackers in them. They caught quite a few car thieves.
This sort of think is depressing to hear about, Ken Palmer from memory had all of his draws taken from Brian when he was working it, you would have thought that climbers would have had far more respect. I guess there are bad apples in every barrel.
In reply to Xavierpercy:
Yes it's nice to think climbers are above such behaviour but it only takes a couple of scumbags I guess.
Yes it's nice to think climbers are above such behaviour but it only takes a couple of scumbags I guess.
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In reply to doylo:
Sort of. Someone has to buy these quickdraws off them as well to make it worthwhile, I guess.
Anyway, good luck with it.
jcm
> it only takes a couple of scumbags I guess
Sort of. Someone has to buy these quickdraws off them as well to make it worthwhile, I guess.
Anyway, good luck with it.
jcm
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In reply to doylo:
someone must know who is doing it, i hope you find out who they are and dish some justice. spread the word who he is when you find out and hope all make their days out to be an unenjoyable experience
someone must know who is doing it, i hope you find out who they are and dish some justice. spread the word who he is when you find out and hope all make their days out to be an unenjoyable experience
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In reply to mark s:
I remember somewhere about a group of Canadian MTB ers that put cameras up in a forest to catch a person laying tripwires. They were successful, and i think an appearance in court for perpetrator.
I remember somewhere about a group of Canadian MTB ers that put cameras up in a forest to catch a person laying tripwires. They were successful, and i think an appearance in court for perpetrator.
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In reply to Jim C:
I'm left with an "Indiana Jones" mental image
> What about 'bait caves' with ( concealed) cameras to catch the culprits in the act.
I'm left with an "Indiana Jones" mental image
In reply to doylo:
On a recent long-running crag swag thread, there were several climbers who subscribed to the "if gear is left on the actual rock face, it's fair game" philosophy - they really seemed to believe that it's that simple. Perhaps one of them has your quickdraws.
> Just got back from Llanddulas Cave to find to my dismay 6 quickdraws stolen from a line I've been trying. The line is a horizontal roof route and thus hard to strip.
On a recent long-running crag swag thread, there were several climbers who subscribed to the "if gear is left on the actual rock face, it's fair game" philosophy - they really seemed to believe that it's that simple. Perhaps one of them has your quickdraws.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I think you misunderstood the stance which was being taken on that thread regarding 'left' gear. I may have missed some posts saying otherwise but I don't remember anyone suggesting draws should be taken out of a route which was clearly bring projected.
I think you misunderstood the stance which was being taken on that thread regarding 'left' gear. I may have missed some posts saying otherwise but I don't remember anyone suggesting draws should be taken out of a route which was clearly bring projected.
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In reply to Fraser:
Ho hum. I was playing devil's advocate. I thought that might have been more obvious. Apparently not.
No-one specifically suggested that, no (of course). However, there was more than one post saying "it's quite simple: if it's in the cliff, it's swag", or something very similar. They proposed to implement a simple, black-and-white rule, (apparently) regardless of circumstances. Nothing about a special exemption for people working hard sport routes.
> I don't remember anyone suggesting draws should be taken out of a route which was clearly bring projected.
Ho hum. I was playing devil's advocate. I thought that might have been more obvious. Apparently not.
No-one specifically suggested that, no (of course). However, there was more than one post saying "it's quite simple: if it's in the cliff, it's swag", or something very similar. They proposed to implement a simple, black-and-white rule, (apparently) regardless of circumstances. Nothing about a special exemption for people working hard sport routes.
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Last week I checked my junk mail and alongside the viagra adverts and offers of marriage from Nigerians was an email from http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=203538 this user, accidental thief. He/she said it had been a misunderstanding (hmm) and they would send my quickdraws back to me. I replied but have heard nothing back. As they've set up a new email account to message me anonymously they might not have checked their account as I didn't reply for the first week. Or my message might have gone in their junk mail. So if you see this accidental thief, check your email. I'd like my quickdraws back please.
In reply to doylo:
Why the "hmm"? If it was a deliberate theft you wouldn't think they'd offer to send them back. Unless they're up to something else; trying to get more of your personal information - an elaborate gambit by one of the Nigerian ladies, perhaps?
> He/she said it had been a misunderstanding (hmm) and they would send my quickdraws back to me.
Why the "hmm"? If it was a deliberate theft you wouldn't think they'd offer to send them back. Unless they're up to something else; trying to get more of your personal information - an elaborate gambit by one of the Nigerian ladies, perhaps?
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Because I don't see how clipsticking up to an obvious project and aiding along taking someone else's quickdraws out can be a 'misunderstanding'. More like they've seen it online and felt guilty. Or maybe the email was a wind up.
Because I don't see how clipsticking up to an obvious project and aiding along taking someone else's quickdraws out can be a 'misunderstanding'. More like they've seen it online and felt guilty. Or maybe the email was a wind up.
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In reply to doylo:
Assuming you get your QDs back accept them with good grace and stop griping.
The average scrote does not return stolen gear, even anonymously, and generally doesn't feel guilty about keeping other people's stuff. To you an "obvious project", to someone else maybe abandoned gear littering up the place. You could try leaving a note next time.
If it was a wind up and you don't get your gear back that is rotten luck, you have my sympathy but it is time to move on.
Assuming you get your QDs back accept them with good grace and stop griping.
The average scrote does not return stolen gear, even anonymously, and generally doesn't feel guilty about keeping other people's stuff. To you an "obvious project", to someone else maybe abandoned gear littering up the place. You could try leaving a note next time.
If it was a wind up and you don't get your gear back that is rotten luck, you have my sympathy but it is time to move on.
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In reply to doylo:
I reckon it's a wind up, though I've got faith in the climbing community as a whole eventually finding out where you're stuff went.
I reckon it's a wind up, though I've got faith in the climbing community as a whole eventually finding out where you're stuff went.
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In reply to duchessofmalfi:
I think the issue is that there has been a considerable amount of in situ gear stolen from crags across North Wales, which has to be replaced at great expense to the bolt fund, which would otherwise be able to be spent on replacing old bolts, and creating new routes. This seemed at first to be just another instance of someone profiteering at other people's expense. This is not a victimless crime, nor is it a crime specifically against Doylo. This is a crime against everyone who climbs sport routes in North Wales.
> Assuming you get your QDs back accept them with good grace and stop griping.
I think the issue is that there has been a considerable amount of in situ gear stolen from crags across North Wales, which has to be replaced at great expense to the bolt fund, which would otherwise be able to be spent on replacing old bolts, and creating new routes. This seemed at first to be just another instance of someone profiteering at other people's expense. This is not a victimless crime, nor is it a crime specifically against Doylo. This is a crime against everyone who climbs sport routes in North Wales.
Post edited at 09:53
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In reply to Fraser:
The implication of that is that taking the 2 draws could be justifiable but taking the 6 is not, but that is just one set of values among many. Personally, I wouldn't keep the gear in either case. However, others may not regard any gear left on the crag as off limits. They might say "so what if it's a project; you still chose to leave the gear on the cliff". In my opinion, a prevailing "crag swag" culture (in which no-one can agree on the exact "rules"), only makes such rationalisations and justifications more likely. I think anyone nicking quickdraws from an obvious sport project is a bit of a shit, but I don't think any more highly of someone keeping a novice trad climber's shiny new cam.
> I'd say not. Two draws might be bailing, 6 is being projected
The implication of that is that taking the 2 draws could be justifiable but taking the 6 is not, but that is just one set of values among many. Personally, I wouldn't keep the gear in either case. However, others may not regard any gear left on the crag as off limits. They might say "so what if it's a project; you still chose to leave the gear on the cliff". In my opinion, a prevailing "crag swag" culture (in which no-one can agree on the exact "rules"), only makes such rationalisations and justifications more likely. I think anyone nicking quickdraws from an obvious sport project is a bit of a shit, but I don't think any more highly of someone keeping a novice trad climber's shiny new cam.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Perhaps so, but you're missing the point I was trying to make, namely someone wouldn't mistake 6 insitu draws as having been 'abandoned' (ie. there was no intent to return to retrieve them) whereas with two draws they might.
Perhaps so, but you're missing the point I was trying to make, namely someone wouldn't mistake 6 insitu draws as having been 'abandoned' (ie. there was no intent to return to retrieve them) whereas with two draws they might.
> To you an "obvious project", to someone else maybe abandoned gear
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In reply to bpmclimb:
'Crag swag' would not apply for gear left on a closed sport project - I'd say this is well understood.
'Crag swag' would not apply for gear left on a closed sport project - I'd say this is well understood.
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Probably quite well understood by many, but by no means all - it's obviously not well understood by the climber(s) who nicked the draws! There are also people like me who completely reject "crag swag rules", preferring to assess the ethics of each scenario on a case-by-case basis.
I got involved in this thread because I was struck by the big difference in attitudes between it and recent threads debating crag swag. Yes, six draws in situ on a roof are exceedingly unlikely to have been abandoned, but that is very often the case with cams or multiple bits of other gear left in situ on a trad cliff. It would seem reasonable to use the same definition of "abandoned" in each case, yet there have been a number of "crag swaggers" saying that benightment or heavy rain is no excuse, and the intent to return for the gear makes no difference: once you leave the crag you've lost any claim on the gear. Well, to apply the same standards, presumably sport climbers should clean routes at the end of each day or relinquish ownership of the draws.
I don't know if any of the climbers posting on this thread, freely using the word "crime", and practically baying for the blood of the offender, also subscribe to this draconian variety of crag swag ethics when it comes to trad gear. One would hope not, because that would constitute a particularly glaring double standard.
> 'Crag swag' would not apply for gear left on a closed sport project - I'd say this is well understood.
Probably quite well understood by many, but by no means all - it's obviously not well understood by the climber(s) who nicked the draws! There are also people like me who completely reject "crag swag rules", preferring to assess the ethics of each scenario on a case-by-case basis.
I got involved in this thread because I was struck by the big difference in attitudes between it and recent threads debating crag swag. Yes, six draws in situ on a roof are exceedingly unlikely to have been abandoned, but that is very often the case with cams or multiple bits of other gear left in situ on a trad cliff. It would seem reasonable to use the same definition of "abandoned" in each case, yet there have been a number of "crag swaggers" saying that benightment or heavy rain is no excuse, and the intent to return for the gear makes no difference: once you leave the crag you've lost any claim on the gear. Well, to apply the same standards, presumably sport climbers should clean routes at the end of each day or relinquish ownership of the draws.
I don't know if any of the climbers posting on this thread, freely using the word "crime", and practically baying for the blood of the offender, also subscribe to this draconian variety of crag swag ethics when it comes to trad gear. One would hope not, because that would constitute a particularly glaring double standard.
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In reply to Fraser:
I take your point; however, if we are to take this climber's Email at face value, there seems to have been at least some degree of confusion as to what constitutes abandoned gear. It will be interesting to see how that pans out, and if the draws are returned.
> Perhaps so, but you're missing the point I was trying to make, namely someone wouldn't mistake 6 insitu draws as having been 'abandoned' (ie. there was no intent to return to retrieve them) whereas with two draws they might.
I take your point; however, if we are to take this climber's Email at face value, there seems to have been at least some degree of confusion as to what constitutes abandoned gear. It will be interesting to see how that pans out, and if the draws are returned.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I'm surprised you've been climbing for >20 years and still struggle with this. It really isn't rocket science.
I'm surprised you've been climbing for >20 years and still struggle with this. It really isn't rocket science.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
It certainly wasn't understood by me until a similar thread a few years back. Up until then (probably because I almost exclusively trad climb) I'd have assumed they were abandoned due to some sort of mishap, taken them down if I could, and attempted to find the owner.
> Probably quite well understood by many, but by no means all
It certainly wasn't understood by me until a similar thread a few years back. Up until then (probably because I almost exclusively trad climb) I'd have assumed they were abandoned due to some sort of mishap, taken them down if I could, and attempted to find the owner.
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In reply to Mr Lopez:
That's rather patronising. Let me try to alleviate your surprise by putting it as simply as I can: I think some climbers (not all by any means) use an over-simplified set of "rules" to help justify keeping stuff that doesn't belong to them. Is that really such a far-fetched proposition?
> I'm surprised you've been climbing for >20 years and still struggle with this. It really isn't rocket science.
That's rather patronising. Let me try to alleviate your surprise by putting it as simply as I can: I think some climbers (not all by any means) use an over-simplified set of "rules" to help justify keeping stuff that doesn't belong to them. Is that really such a far-fetched proposition?
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That confusion simply doesn't apply to Doylo's horizontal roof project, regardless of what you read on the internet. You'd have to go to monumental efforts to retrieve a few quick-draws. It's a world away from 'Oh look someone's had to ab off that last crab up there, MINE!' They're a) a pretty handy/cunning climber, b) a scumbag, or c) both.
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In reply to SteveRi:
Agreed - except that you wouldn't think a cunning scumbag would bother with the Email. Curious.
> That confusion simply doesn't apply to Doylo's horizontal roof project, regardless of what you read on the internet. You'd have to go to monumental efforts to retrieve a few quick-draws. It's a world away from 'Oh look someone's had to ab off that last crab up there, MINE!' They're a) a pretty handy/cunning climber, b) a scumbag, or c) both.
Agreed - except that you wouldn't think a cunning scumbag would bother with the Email. Curious.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Given that I haven't heard anything back I'm thinking that the email was a wind up. My faith in human nature was momentarily restored for a while at least.
Given that I haven't heard anything back I'm thinking that the email was a wind up. My faith in human nature was momentarily restored for a while at least.
In reply to doylo:
Given the difficulty of stripping, it seems likely that whoever took the quickdraws is a competent climber (with a belayer?) If that's the case, it's likely that they've been following this thread with a degree of dismay. I suspect your original hypothesis is more likely - they felt guilty. But they're probably more worried about being found out - with the inevitable reactions on here.
[To accidental thief] Why don't you just put the quickdraws in a jiffy bag, bang on some postage and send it somewhere (e.g. a climbing shop - V10?) to be returned to Doylo? Nobody need ever know who you are and you'll feel loads better.
[To Doylo] I can totally understand that you're gutted. But, re faith in human nature, the crag swag thread (exhausting though it was) seemed to indicate that many climbers were highly moral about gear - even if we operated according to sharply differing sets of values.
It would be great if these quickdraws came back to where they belong.
Mick
Given the difficulty of stripping, it seems likely that whoever took the quickdraws is a competent climber (with a belayer?) If that's the case, it's likely that they've been following this thread with a degree of dismay. I suspect your original hypothesis is more likely - they felt guilty. But they're probably more worried about being found out - with the inevitable reactions on here.
[To accidental thief] Why don't you just put the quickdraws in a jiffy bag, bang on some postage and send it somewhere (e.g. a climbing shop - V10?) to be returned to Doylo? Nobody need ever know who you are and you'll feel loads better.
[To Doylo] I can totally understand that you're gutted. But, re faith in human nature, the crag swag thread (exhausting though it was) seemed to indicate that many climbers were highly moral about gear - even if we operated according to sharply differing sets of values.
It would be great if these quickdraws came back to where they belong.
Mick
Post edited at 18:16
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In reply to bpmclimb:
'Crag swag' really comes from trad where gear can become stuck, used for retreat on multipitch or left in-situ when a climber can't get up the route and has to lower off. The ethic doesn't really fit sport climbing very well. Lots of quickdraws on a route will either mean the climb is being projected or perhaps an accident has occurred and the climbers have had to leave quickly. Neither scenario merits the gear being taken.
I wonder if you are not choosing to 'oversimplify the rules'?
'Crag swag' really comes from trad where gear can become stuck, used for retreat on multipitch or left in-situ when a climber can't get up the route and has to lower off. The ethic doesn't really fit sport climbing very well. Lots of quickdraws on a route will either mean the climb is being projected or perhaps an accident has occurred and the climbers have had to leave quickly. Neither scenario merits the gear being taken.
I wonder if you are not choosing to 'oversimplify the rules'?
Post edited at 19:37
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
IMO the ethic doesn't fit anything very well, except perhaps multi-pitch sea cliff and big mountain routes, and even then it can be a rather uncomfortable fit, because climbers have different ideas about what the exact "rules" are.
I think you are selecting scenarios to suit your argument. Wherever crag swag "really comes from", the fact is that these days the ethic is just as often often applied to single-pitch trad, in non-remote locations - which (apart from the issue of stuck gear) is much more similar to sport. Bailing entails leaving gear in both cases, and the intention could equally be to return for it, and the scenario of multiple pieces being left in situ following an accident is equally likely on trad, is it not?
IMO the ethic doesn't fit anything very well, except perhaps multi-pitch sea cliff and big mountain routes, and even then it can be a rather uncomfortable fit, because climbers have different ideas about what the exact "rules" are.
I think you are selecting scenarios to suit your argument. Wherever crag swag "really comes from", the fact is that these days the ethic is just as often often applied to single-pitch trad, in non-remote locations - which (apart from the issue of stuck gear) is much more similar to sport. Bailing entails leaving gear in both cases, and the intention could equally be to return for it, and the scenario of multiple pieces being left in situ following an accident is equally likely on trad, is it not?
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In reply to bpmclimb:
6 quickdraws to bail from sounds unlikely, however you argue it. I'm going by the scenario in the OP which seems like a poor selection for a crag swag discussion.
6 quickdraws to bail from sounds unlikely, however you argue it. I'm going by the scenario in the OP which seems like a poor selection for a crag swag discussion.
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
I explained why I joined the thread on this tack a few posts back, no point repeating myself. Go and look if you can be bothered. There is a clear relevance to this thread in the light of the aforementioned Email. And I never suggested that the 6 draws were placed in order to bail - that would be ridiculous!
I explained why I joined the thread on this tack a few posts back, no point repeating myself. Go and look if you can be bothered. There is a clear relevance to this thread in the light of the aforementioned Email. And I never suggested that the 6 draws were placed in order to bail - that would be ridiculous!
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I think most people and the OP are probably wishing you hadn't.
> I explained why I joined the thread on this tack a few posts back, no point repeating myself.
I think most people and the OP are probably wishing you hadn't.
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In reply to All:
In the olden days it would of been a right pain to sort out left gear and the crag swag ethic would have been more reasonable.
Nowadays with ukc and facebook it's very easy to sort out left gear.
I always post on ukc if I find gear, then if no one claims it you can enjoy your new gear completely guilt free.
This is irrelevant to the op though, that's just blatant theft.
In the olden days it would of been a right pain to sort out left gear and the crag swag ethic would have been more reasonable.
Nowadays with ukc and facebook it's very easy to sort out left gear.
I always post on ukc if I find gear, then if no one claims it you can enjoy your new gear completely guilt free.
This is irrelevant to the op though, that's just blatant theft.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Frankly, you are talking bollocks with regards this particular incident.
Frankly, you are talking bollocks with regards this particular incident.
Post edited at 06:17
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In reply to deacondeacon:
>
Yes, and I don't think it's been long since we last had a crag swag thread!
>
> This is irrelevant to the op though, that's just blatant theft.
Yes, and I don't think it's been long since we last had a crag swag thread!
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In reply to doylo:
You could try emailing UKC - they'#d be able to check the email address that the new account was registered with to see if it looked valid etc
> Given that I haven't heard anything back I'm thinking that the email was a wind up
You could try emailing UKC - they'#d be able to check the email address that the new account was registered with to see if it looked valid etc
In reply to Steve Perry:
Actually, the number of likes and dislikes for my posts don't support that statement. Your post, however, seems to be unpopular. Perhaps that's because it's rude, and doesn't add anything constructive to the discussion.
In reply to Willi Crater:
Ditto.
> I think most people and the OP are probably wishing you hadn't.
Actually, the number of likes and dislikes for my posts don't support that statement. Your post, however, seems to be unpopular. Perhaps that's because it's rude, and doesn't add anything constructive to the discussion.
In reply to Willi Crater:
Ditto.
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Ok, I can't deny that's true. I shall give it a rest now
> Yes, and I don't think it's been long since we last had a crag swag thread!
Ok, I can't deny that's true. I shall give it a rest now
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Fairy nuff. I'm obviously talking bollocks. Wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last.
> Actually, the number of likes and dislikes for my posts don't support that statement. Your post, however, seems to be unpopular. Perhaps that's because it's rude, and doesn't add anything constructive to the discussion.
> In reply to Willi Crater:
> Ditto.
Fairy nuff. I'm obviously talking bollocks. Wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last.
Post edited at 22:29
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In reply to Steve Perry:
Not the same at all, because it's not in any way personal. In any case, it can hardly be described as a hijack; my first contribution was post number 36 in a long-running thread, which had already had several changes of tack, joking around, all sorts of stuff. If that was a hijack, every thread of any size on these forums, without exception, has had multiple hijacks. I understand that you want to come up with some sort of putdown, because I accused you of rudeness, but that's really scraping the barrel!
> and hijacking someone's thread isn't?
Not the same at all, because it's not in any way personal. In any case, it can hardly be described as a hijack; my first contribution was post number 36 in a long-running thread, which had already had several changes of tack, joking around, all sorts of stuff. If that was a hijack, every thread of any size on these forums, without exception, has had multiple hijacks. I understand that you want to come up with some sort of putdown, because I accused you of rudeness, but that's really scraping the barrel!
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In reply to bpmclimb:
If you're using this tact to try and make arguments, you may want to reassess the 'votes'?
> Actually, the number of likes and dislikes for my posts don't support that statement.
>
>
If you're using this tact to try and make arguments, you may want to reassess the 'votes'?
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Ah, have they changed? I thought that might happen as soon as I mentioned it! Hostage to fortune. Well, at least the two obviously rude ones are still in the negative (for the time being).
EDIT: I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks this thread has become tedious. It doesn't seem that there's any more constructive debate to be had, so I'm off.
> If you're using this tact to try and make arguments, you may want to reassess the 'votes'?
Ah, have they changed? I thought that might happen as soon as I mentioned it! Hostage to fortune. Well, at least the two obviously rude ones are still in the negative (for the time being).
EDIT: I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks this thread has become tedious. It doesn't seem that there's any more constructive debate to be had, so I'm off.
Post edited at 13:29
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In reply to bpmclimb:
At the risk of sounding rude I just gave a like for that
> Ah, have they changed? I thought that might happen as soon as I mentioned it! Hostage to fortune. Well, at least the two obviously rude ones are still in the negative (for the time being).
> EDIT: I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks this thread has become tedious. It doesn't seem that there's any more constructive debate to be had, so I'm off.
At the risk of sounding rude I just gave a like for that
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In reply to bpmclimb:
If you had ever been to the crag and saw doylos project it is more than obvious that he was projecting said route - whoever stole them knew exactly what they were doing , no justification possible - they are just scum of the earth and I hope much bad luck for them in Climbing and their life in general ! I would like to see one of their hands chopped off but that's just me ,,,,, I'm sure loads of you want to defend the cretins
If you had ever been to the crag and saw doylos project it is more than obvious that he was projecting said route - whoever stole them knew exactly what they were doing , no justification possible - they are just scum of the earth and I hope much bad luck for them in Climbing and their life in general ! I would like to see one of their hands chopped off but that's just me ,,,,, I'm sure loads of you want to defend the cretins
Post edited at 08:01
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In reply to solomonkey:
I'm sure you're right, and I wasn't defending the actions. It just sparked off a different (but related) train of thought about differences between sport and trad ethics when it comes to gear left on a cliff. My posts were exploring that issue in general, rather than Doylo's original post specifically. Then Doylo posted that the perpetrator had Emailed him, which came as a bit of a surprise; there were various possible explanations for that. FWIW I think Mick's assessment was probably closest to the truth - that it was an almost-complete-scallywag who had a short-lived twinge of conscience, or was worried about reputation.
I'm sure you're right, and I wasn't defending the actions. It just sparked off a different (but related) train of thought about differences between sport and trad ethics when it comes to gear left on a cliff. My posts were exploring that issue in general, rather than Doylo's original post specifically. Then Doylo posted that the perpetrator had Emailed him, which came as a bit of a surprise; there were various possible explanations for that. FWIW I think Mick's assessment was probably closest to the truth - that it was an almost-complete-scallywag who had a short-lived twinge of conscience, or was worried about reputation.
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