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David Lama has made the first ascent of Avaatara, 9a, in the Baatara Gorge, Lebanon. According to the video, he was the first to climb here, and hence, the route is the first way out of the hole.Certainly looks like an amazing place.
A photo taken from behind a waterfall that showed the...
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In reply to UKC News:
Given the numerous complaints on his facebook links and elsewhere why are you still saying "according to the video he was the first to climb here" I know it's true but its also true he wasn't the first to climb there and some people are clearly pissed off he's claiming that (and with the style of ascent he used for his route).
Given the numerous complaints on his facebook links and elsewhere why are you still saying "according to the video he was the first to climb here" I know it's true but its also true he wasn't the first to climb there and some people are clearly pissed off he's claiming that (and with the style of ascent he used for his route).
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In reply to UKC News:
I think that this has been discussed even before it was 'News'.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=626103
I think that this has been discussed even before it was 'News'.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=626103
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In reply to Andy Say:
What a dire thread that was. It's good to see so many UKC experts on climbing in Lebanon.
Can a Lebanese local from the national Lebanese climbing or mountaineering council answer some queries to enlighten future UKC ranting one way or another:
1) Is the gorge a trad venue or sport or a mixture of both?
2) Were there any existing routes in that sink hole and if so how many and were they trad or sport or a mixture of both?
3) What is the local Lebanese concensus about Lama's route? Is it seen as a positive thing or a retrograde, unwelcome step and future routes should be established on a trad only basis?
What a dire thread that was. It's good to see so many UKC experts on climbing in Lebanon.
Can a Lebanese local from the national Lebanese climbing or mountaineering council answer some queries to enlighten future UKC ranting one way or another:
1) Is the gorge a trad venue or sport or a mixture of both?
2) Were there any existing routes in that sink hole and if so how many and were they trad or sport or a mixture of both?
3) What is the local Lebanese concensus about Lama's route? Is it seen as a positive thing or a retrograde, unwelcome step and future routes should be established on a trad only basis?
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In reply to Offwidth:
Yes, but some were the same people as on here and they are clearly the green ink brigade.
> some people are clearly pissed off he's claiming that (and with the style of ascent he used for his route).
Yes, but some were the same people as on here and they are clearly the green ink brigade.
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In reply to winhill:
It's not part of the green ink brigade to point out he and his well funded sponsors somehow failed to overlook all previous activity there. The climbing world is pretty interconnected and even from the point of view of modesty (apparently not David or Red Bull's strong point) most might say we are not aware of previous activity rather than claiming firsts. The combination with yet another scandal indicates more a tolerated blight on climbing than unfair potshots.
It's not part of the green ink brigade to point out he and his well funded sponsors somehow failed to overlook all previous activity there. The climbing world is pretty interconnected and even from the point of view of modesty (apparently not David or Red Bull's strong point) most might say we are not aware of previous activity rather than claiming firsts. The combination with yet another scandal indicates more a tolerated blight on climbing than unfair potshots.
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In reply to Offwidth:
So you then now of existing routes climbing through the sinkhole?
Or in the gorge where the sinkohole is? Because AFAIK there's quite a bit of existing (bolted) routes in the gorge... but not on the actual sinkhole.
> ...most might say we are not aware of previous activity rather than claiming firsts.
So you then now of existing routes climbing through the sinkhole?
Or in the gorge where the sinkohole is? Because AFAIK there's quite a bit of existing (bolted) routes in the gorge... but not on the actual sinkhole.
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In reply to HeMa:
Unless those complaining of being there first made it up which seems a bloody odd thing for a climber to do. He is obviously the first person to redpoint a bolted route out of the hole but that's not the claim. Redbull is also clearly headlining undiscovered for the gorge itself on its pages.
Unless those complaining of being there first made it up which seems a bloody odd thing for a climber to do. He is obviously the first person to redpoint a bolted route out of the hole but that's not the claim. Redbull is also clearly headlining undiscovered for the gorge itself on its pages.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Yes it is. If you're that bothered about commercialism knit your own rope, otherwise try to take a grown up approach to sponsorship.
He was aware of previous activity because the Lebanese guys that had dismissed it as unclimbable before were there for the first ascent! That's why you get the funny spelling of Avatar, to make it sound Arabie.
What exactly is the scandal and who exactly, (names and location please) objected to the style of ascent? Otherwise all you are doing is simply shit stirring the now brown ink. A very poor reaction from you.
> It's not part of the green ink brigade to point out he and his well funded sponsors somehow failed to overlook all previous activity there.
Yes it is. If you're that bothered about commercialism knit your own rope, otherwise try to take a grown up approach to sponsorship.
> The climbing world is pretty interconnected and even from the point of view of modesty (apparently not David or Red Bull's strong point) most might say we are not aware of previous activity rather than claiming firsts. The combination with yet another scandal indicates more a tolerated blight on climbing than unfair potshots.
He was aware of previous activity because the Lebanese guys that had dismissed it as unclimbable before were there for the first ascent! That's why you get the funny spelling of Avatar, to make it sound Arabie.
What exactly is the scandal and who exactly, (names and location please) objected to the style of ascent? Otherwise all you are doing is simply shit stirring the now brown ink. A very poor reaction from you.
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In reply to winhill:
Interesting... didn't realise Red Bull made ropes (or that critising climbing sponsors for having form on bad behaviour made one a luddite).
Interesting... didn't realise Red Bull made ropes (or that critising climbing sponsors for having form on bad behaviour made one a luddite).
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In reply to Offwidth:
Remember the guy who claimed (and truly believed) he had onsight soloed the Indian Face? Non-climbers and cimbers have very different concepts of what is what.
He claims to be the first to climb in the sinkhole and out of it, and that is most likely what has happened, short of maybe somebody having jumared up a rope hung from the top before, but yet again that is not what we (or Lama) would consider "climbing out of the sinkhole", and sure does not count as a trad ascent either...
> Unless those complaining of being there first made it up which seems a bloody odd thing for a climber to do
Remember the guy who claimed (and truly believed) he had onsight soloed the Indian Face? Non-climbers and cimbers have very different concepts of what is what.
> He is obviously the first person to redpoint a bolted route out of the hole but that's not the claim.
He claims to be the first to climb in the sinkhole and out of it, and that is most likely what has happened, short of maybe somebody having jumared up a rope hung from the top before, but yet again that is not what we (or Lama) would consider "climbing out of the sinkhole", and sure does not count as a trad ascent either...
In reply to Offwidth:
'Luddite'?? What's luddism (a frequently misunderstood or abused term) got to do with anything in this discussion?
> Interesting... didn't realise Red Bull made ropes (or that critising climbing sponsors for having form on bad behaviour made one a luddite).
'Luddite'?? What's luddism (a frequently misunderstood or abused term) got to do with anything in this discussion?
Post edited at 19:52
In reply to Rob Parsons:
Someone who rejects a new technology? It's almost as bad as pedants who fail to recogniss words can seperate from their etymolgy
Someone who rejects a new technology? It's almost as bad as pedants who fail to recogniss words can seperate from their etymolgy
Post edited at 20:04
In reply to Rob Parsons:
Pretty much any modern dictionary says both meanings are valid. You need to watch this:
vimeo.com/15412319
Pretty much any modern dictionary says both meanings are valid. You need to watch this:
vimeo.com/15412319
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In reply to Offwidth:
A beautiful response to a tedious and and frequently annoying habit. Thanks for sharing.
A beautiful response to a tedious and and frequently annoying habit. Thanks for sharing.
In reply to Rob Parsons:
That's socio-political history.
And that particular episode spawned a word which has come to have meaning in modern language. And the meaning of words is dynamic. And books of grammar should be descriptive, not prescriptive.
I hope you're cool with that...
> That's not what luddism was about.
That's socio-political history.
And that particular episode spawned a word which has come to have meaning in modern language. And the meaning of words is dynamic. And books of grammar should be descriptive, not prescriptive.
I hope you're cool with that...
In reply to captain paranoia:
This is some more good information on spotting pedants:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/aug/15/steven-pinker-10-grammar-rules...
I remain more interested in dealing with the misuse of climbing as an adrenaline based advertising tool, than obeying archaic (and often incorrect) language rules.
This is some more good information on spotting pedants:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/aug/15/steven-pinker-10-grammar-rules...
I remain more interested in dealing with the misuse of climbing as an adrenaline based advertising tool, than obeying archaic (and often incorrect) language rules.
In reply to Cusco:
My guess is that if you live in Lebanon the trad vs sport debate is not high on your list of concerns.
> Can a Lebanese local from the national Lebanese climbing or mountaineering council answer some queries to enlighten future UKC ranting one way or another:
My guess is that if you live in Lebanon the trad vs sport debate is not high on your list of concerns.
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In reply to Offwidth:
You have completely missed the point: the objection isn't on a point of grammar; it's to do with saving the true meaning of a word which has important historical context in Britain.
Your posting of the ponderous, pretentious, pompous, prolix pontifications and pronouncements (see what I did there?) of the poltroon Stephen ('Why use one word, when six will do?' ) Fry to support your case is frankly bizarre: one thing we know about him is that he's ignorant of even very recent history - witness his crazy comments on Auschwitz.
However, I will leave you to have the last word; you seldom disappoint on that score!
You have completely missed the point: the objection isn't on a point of grammar; it's to do with saving the true meaning of a word which has important historical context in Britain.
Your posting of the ponderous, pretentious, pompous, prolix pontifications and pronouncements (see what I did there?) of the poltroon Stephen ('Why use one word, when six will do?' ) Fry to support your case is frankly bizarre: one thing we know about him is that he's ignorant of even very recent history - witness his crazy comments on Auschwitz.
However, I will leave you to have the last word; you seldom disappoint on that score!
Post edited at 13:42
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In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Unless you live in the Lebanon and are keen on climbing (such individuals do exist you know) in which case it probably is.
> My guess is that if you live in Lebanon the trad vs sport debate is not high on your list of concerns.
Unless you live in the Lebanon and are keen on climbing (such individuals do exist you know) in which case it probably is.
In reply to Rob Parsons:
All amateurish alliteration aside, I bet Mr Fry would whoop your ass 'doing the dozens'.
You are wrong and wrong headed about my usage and its influence on the story of Ned Ludd and co: I'd wager the new version of the word does more than some school history classes to keep the story alive and sticking to the version correct to the etymology would achieve little given the current rareness of anti-technological employment related riots.
Apologies for getting the last word so late ... day job 'n' all
All amateurish alliteration aside, I bet Mr Fry would whoop your ass 'doing the dozens'.
You are wrong and wrong headed about my usage and its influence on the story of Ned Ludd and co: I'd wager the new version of the word does more than some school history classes to keep the story alive and sticking to the version correct to the etymology would achieve little given the current rareness of anti-technological employment related riots.
Apologies for getting the last word so late ... day job 'n' all
In reply to UKC News:
Hello All,
i have just seen the several comments coming out regarding ''Avaatara" and the fact that there are some people who complained about Lama not being the first to climb in the gorge.
As Jad Khoury, personally i guess i could be one of the few that could answer this debate and settle it.
In order to put thing into perspective, i will be posting the following facts about the rock climbing in Lebanon in the last 10 years almost:
1- Rock climbing in Lebanon has been developped since the early 2000's by the french army bolting routes for the lebanese army training purposes. This has been one of the seeds of the current climbing community. most lebanese climbers started climbing on these routes.
2- Most of the climbing in Lebanon consists of Sport Climbing, Bouldering and DWS. Trad is very rare but can be found, as the nature of the rock does not always allow for natural cracks.
3-Prior to 2009 there was very few development being done in matter of bolting new routes (which is very accepted here as the rock is limestone same as found in france, italy, spain and greece. I totally understand the ethics in the UK and sometimes other parts of the world where bolts are prohibited, as for Lebanon it is quite different).
4- Since 2009, 'Rock Climbing Lebanon' the registered local rock climbing association, has been raising the development standards and working on putting Lebanon the world rock climbing map.
Chabot visited lebanon in 2010, followed by brittany griffith, Sam Elias, Andrew Bisharat, Boone Speed and now David Lama.
Regarding the route Avaatara please find the following answers for your questions:
-Is the gorge a trad venue or sport or a mixture of both? the gorge is a touristic destination, with commercial companies that run paid abseiling and zip line activities. with the in-existence of an entity to regulate these businesses, un-professionalism could sometimes lead to accidents that i sincerely hope that would not happen.
There were not even 1 single climbing route (sport or trad) prior to Avaatara. the only climbing sector is 5 mins drive close to the sink hole location. So the whole area does not qualify of being a sport or trad venue, it is a unique location having the honor of hosting THE hardest climbing route in Lebanon currently.
-Were there any existing routes in that sink hole and if so how many and were they trad or sport or a mixture of both? the only scramble done on this location is a very easy gulley that was used as a climbing test for a yearly climbing session done by an outdoor activities company.
-What is the local Lebanese concensus about Lama's route? Is it seen as a positive thing or a retrograde, unwelcome step and future routes should be established on a trad only basis? Prior to the set up of the whole thing, being a part of the project and representing the lebanese rock climbers community, i recommended and demanded that Redbull would communicate the project to the local municipality of Chatine which is the location of the Sink hole. The acceptance of the municipality, the local residents and civilian society organizations such as local associations is a very important side that we took as a priority. As for the local rock climbers community, every climber has found that this route has been a very positive point to promote the good side and image of lebanon.
Of course bolting a route in a unique location could sometimes represent a burden if it gets unaccepted by the local community, this was not the case of the smiling locals every day that saw us at the location.
It is important to point out that the amount of trash from tourists and abseiling clubs sometimes cannot be imagined, this is a bad side of the location being touristic. before the ascent, we had to work to haul more than 20 trash bags full of garbage (200kg+) of all types that are impacting the location more than 10 bolts or even less which originally are not something regarded as bad here in Lebanon.
As for the people claiming in their comments on face book that they were the first to climb in that location, jugging up a rope following a caving or rappeling day does not qualify of being bolted sport route. it is important to mention that this location as well as other locations in Lebanon are sometimes littered with hundreds caving 8mm bolts that are used for training and that does not look well on the eyes...
Being a French 9a route, and the first of its grade in Lebanon. the whole community in Lebanon is very proud of it, as well as the magical video that was shot to show the best image of Lebanon. I am not sure if every person on this website has heard of Lebanon, maybe you've heard about Lebanon through the war media stating that it is still a war torn country.
Truth is, Lebanon is paradise despite all the issues that happened 30 years ago involving war and killing.
Lebanon in 2015 invites you to visit it and climb on the best routes limestone can offer.
I invite you to check my blog and to read more about rock climbing in Lebanon: http://rockclimbinglebanonblog.blogspot.com/
Best Regards,
Jad Khoury
Hello All,
i have just seen the several comments coming out regarding ''Avaatara" and the fact that there are some people who complained about Lama not being the first to climb in the gorge.
As Jad Khoury, personally i guess i could be one of the few that could answer this debate and settle it.
In order to put thing into perspective, i will be posting the following facts about the rock climbing in Lebanon in the last 10 years almost:
1- Rock climbing in Lebanon has been developped since the early 2000's by the french army bolting routes for the lebanese army training purposes. This has been one of the seeds of the current climbing community. most lebanese climbers started climbing on these routes.
2- Most of the climbing in Lebanon consists of Sport Climbing, Bouldering and DWS. Trad is very rare but can be found, as the nature of the rock does not always allow for natural cracks.
3-Prior to 2009 there was very few development being done in matter of bolting new routes (which is very accepted here as the rock is limestone same as found in france, italy, spain and greece. I totally understand the ethics in the UK and sometimes other parts of the world where bolts are prohibited, as for Lebanon it is quite different).
4- Since 2009, 'Rock Climbing Lebanon' the registered local rock climbing association, has been raising the development standards and working on putting Lebanon the world rock climbing map.
Chabot visited lebanon in 2010, followed by brittany griffith, Sam Elias, Andrew Bisharat, Boone Speed and now David Lama.
Regarding the route Avaatara please find the following answers for your questions:
-Is the gorge a trad venue or sport or a mixture of both? the gorge is a touristic destination, with commercial companies that run paid abseiling and zip line activities. with the in-existence of an entity to regulate these businesses, un-professionalism could sometimes lead to accidents that i sincerely hope that would not happen.
There were not even 1 single climbing route (sport or trad) prior to Avaatara. the only climbing sector is 5 mins drive close to the sink hole location. So the whole area does not qualify of being a sport or trad venue, it is a unique location having the honor of hosting THE hardest climbing route in Lebanon currently.
-Were there any existing routes in that sink hole and if so how many and were they trad or sport or a mixture of both? the only scramble done on this location is a very easy gulley that was used as a climbing test for a yearly climbing session done by an outdoor activities company.
-What is the local Lebanese concensus about Lama's route? Is it seen as a positive thing or a retrograde, unwelcome step and future routes should be established on a trad only basis? Prior to the set up of the whole thing, being a part of the project and representing the lebanese rock climbers community, i recommended and demanded that Redbull would communicate the project to the local municipality of Chatine which is the location of the Sink hole. The acceptance of the municipality, the local residents and civilian society organizations such as local associations is a very important side that we took as a priority. As for the local rock climbers community, every climber has found that this route has been a very positive point to promote the good side and image of lebanon.
Of course bolting a route in a unique location could sometimes represent a burden if it gets unaccepted by the local community, this was not the case of the smiling locals every day that saw us at the location.
It is important to point out that the amount of trash from tourists and abseiling clubs sometimes cannot be imagined, this is a bad side of the location being touristic. before the ascent, we had to work to haul more than 20 trash bags full of garbage (200kg+) of all types that are impacting the location more than 10 bolts or even less which originally are not something regarded as bad here in Lebanon.
As for the people claiming in their comments on face book that they were the first to climb in that location, jugging up a rope following a caving or rappeling day does not qualify of being bolted sport route. it is important to mention that this location as well as other locations in Lebanon are sometimes littered with hundreds caving 8mm bolts that are used for training and that does not look well on the eyes...
Being a French 9a route, and the first of its grade in Lebanon. the whole community in Lebanon is very proud of it, as well as the magical video that was shot to show the best image of Lebanon. I am not sure if every person on this website has heard of Lebanon, maybe you've heard about Lebanon through the war media stating that it is still a war torn country.
Truth is, Lebanon is paradise despite all the issues that happened 30 years ago involving war and killing.
Lebanon in 2015 invites you to visit it and climb on the best routes limestone can offer.
I invite you to check my blog and to read more about rock climbing in Lebanon: http://rockclimbinglebanonblog.blogspot.com/
Best Regards,
Jad Khoury
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In reply to Jad Khoury:
Thanks for such a comprehensive reply explaining the local perspective! Very interesting to hear.
Thanks for such a comprehensive reply explaining the local perspective! Very interesting to hear.
5
In reply to Jad Khoury:
Agree with TobyA. Thank you for coming on here and putting everything in perspective. Obviously David Lama has had bad press in the past... but the past is the past. We all make mistakes. Hopefully we learn from them, put them right if we can, move on.
I found it very hard to believe that a F9a on limestone would be wrecking a trad climbing venue, but, without visiting the venue, you don't know for sure. This thread needed someone from the Lebanon coming on and telling us the situation.
I worked in Beirut for a few months in the mid-1990s. It was being rebuilt at the time. My heart went out to those rebuilding it. Despite the carnage of war, you could see why it was once known as the Paris of the middle East.
I lived in Hamra. Back then I seemed to be the only Westerner living there. I felt totally safe. The Lebanese people were absolutely lovely - so unlike many of their neighbours. I knew there must have been loads of climbing, up in the hills, but never managed to have the time to go looking. (The work was pretty full-on!) So it's great that the climbing potential is finally being realised.
I hope that peace remains in the Lebanon - that people come and climb, forget their differences, celebrate their commonality. We're all on this planet together. Our commonality is far more important than our differences.
Mick
Agree with TobyA. Thank you for coming on here and putting everything in perspective. Obviously David Lama has had bad press in the past... but the past is the past. We all make mistakes. Hopefully we learn from them, put them right if we can, move on.
I found it very hard to believe that a F9a on limestone would be wrecking a trad climbing venue, but, without visiting the venue, you don't know for sure. This thread needed someone from the Lebanon coming on and telling us the situation.
I worked in Beirut for a few months in the mid-1990s. It was being rebuilt at the time. My heart went out to those rebuilding it. Despite the carnage of war, you could see why it was once known as the Paris of the middle East.
I lived in Hamra. Back then I seemed to be the only Westerner living there. I felt totally safe. The Lebanese people were absolutely lovely - so unlike many of their neighbours. I knew there must have been loads of climbing, up in the hills, but never managed to have the time to go looking. (The work was pretty full-on!) So it's great that the climbing potential is finally being realised.
I hope that peace remains in the Lebanon - that people come and climb, forget their differences, celebrate their commonality. We're all on this planet together. Our commonality is far more important than our differences.
Mick
6
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