UKC

A couple of months ago there was a "discussion" about Israel and Palestine and the protest marches in London.

A number of people told me the marches were anti-Semitic and a few Jewish people said they would be intimidated to join the protest, even though they disagreed with Israeli occupation.

I argued the marches were peaceful, not anti-Semitic and were an education, in that there was a significant number of Jewish people protesting too.

To this end I suggested that some of the people who wouldn't go, because they thought it was anti-Semitism and would be intimidating for Jewish people, should come on the next one and dispel their prejudices.

Well now is you chance https://www.facebook.com/events/485525934982604/

In reply to krikoman:
They're certainly coming off second best in their recent stabbing campaign against unarmed Israeli citizens......what do you hope this march on the Israeli embassy will achieve?

In reply to Morgan Woods:


I though this might get a mention but you're not counting the recent previous 4 weeks, when Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces, many of them women and children, it just hasn't been reported.

It has only now been reported because Jewish people have been involved.

https://www.facebook.com/palestinesolidarityuk/photos/a.212319155478021.500...

10th October
http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=768153

there was a woman killed at a check point a couple of weeks ago, she was behind a steel fence, about waist high, the Israeli soldiers said she had a knife and was trying to stab them, from about 20 feet away, this wasn't reported either.

While I don't condone violence, it's not hard to see why it might happen, Last month around 40 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces many of them children. No one seems to care, it's not mentions in the news here, so how do they publicise their plight. After the bombardment last year in Gaza millions of pound of rebuilding aid was promised by many countries, hardly any of this aid has been got through to the people who need it. Israel bombed the only power station in Gaza and now controls what power they get and when they get it.

In reply to krikoman:

And this

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-israel-plants-armed...

In reply to krikoman:

You may wish to take your complaints to Allah's clerical fuknut, in Gaza.?
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/5098.htm

In reply to dek:
yes but this is after weeks of killings by Israeli forces, what are they supposed to do?

We are only hearing about this now because Israeli's have been stabbed, so the tactic has worked. It doesn't make it right but how do the Palestinians get justice.

two weeks ago a 12 year old boy was shot in the face with a "sponge" bullet.

These are school girl FFS! https://www.facebook.com/ShehabAgency.MainPage/videos/1208108629231555/


All our government does is to introduce legislation to prohibit councils from boycotting Israeli goods!!


And there's always some fuck saying shite no one wants to say, but Israel is state sponsored killing, backed up by us and the USA.

That video you posted, might have been some bloke in his own bedroom with an audience of his cat! There's no context to it at all. It might have been some bloke paid by Israeli's to rant while they film.

In reply to krikoman:



What actually happened was they disguised themselves as stone throwers so they could cut out and arrest the instigators. Good tactics.

In reply to krikoman:

About a mile from where I live, yesterday two Palestinians attacked a bus, killed one Israeli and wounded many others. I have not have much time for your nonsense right now. Here is a link to photos, a video and a description. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/351480/video...

In reply to krikoman:


Jews - liars with money to pay for liars to spread their lying lies.

Tell us again how it won't be anti-semitic on Saturday.

In reply to krikoman:
There is also a graphic video on Youtube and other media of a Palestinian yesterday running down with a car a 60 year old rabbi at a bus stop, jumping out of his car, and continuing the attack with meat cleaver until the rabbi was dead. The terrorist was shot dead to stop him. I won't give you a direct link, since it shows the death of two people. If you really want, google 'cctv footage palestinian attack bus stop'

In reply to MikeTS:

It's almost as if they are unhappy with the way they are treated by Israel. What with the bulldozing of their homes, the open air prison that is Gaza, the murder of unarmed men women & children alike, etc.

The gall of these Palestinian terrorists to try to fight back.

In reply to Removed User:

The Palestinian who killed the Rabbi was employed an engineer with Bezeq, the major Israeli telecoms company. He even used the company car. He lived in Jerusalem so had equal rights to all other inhabitants of Jerusalem. Not a Gazan or someone with a house bulldozed!
But more seriously, I am shocked that you believe killing a Rabbi at a bus stop is considered morally legitimate resistance.
More likely he had listened to PA president Abbas who said a month ago '“Every drop of blood spilled in Jerusalem is pure, every shahid [martyr] will reach paradise, and every injured person will be rewarded by God.'

In reply to Removed User:

Occupied people fight back against occupation SHOCK!

Yesterday I walked through the Friends of Israel protest outside the Palestinian Mission in Hammersmith, and the pro-Pal counter protest (the two sides were well separated by the police). Spoke to a chap who was a Director of Zionist Federation UK. He told me that there is no occupation in Palestine, that all of the West Bank belongs to the Jews and he thinks best solution is for the Arabs to be 'transferred' to a neighbouring country. One very depressing conversation.

In reply to Owen W-G:

Again, killing a Rabbi at a bus stop is a morally acceptable act to you?

In reply to krikoman:

This literally happened an hour ago. A Palestinian ran at a checkpoingt outside the old city with a knife.
http://www.msnbc.com/jos--d-az-balart/watch/police--no-doubt-man-posed-immi...

In reply to MikeTS:

Certainly not!

Is a 48y illegal occupation, one that Israel seemingly intends to continue into perpetuity, morally acceptable to you?

In reply to Owen W-G:
>One very depressing conversation.

Depressing, but neither the official policy Israel, which signed onto a two state solution, and is waiting for Abbas to come back to negotiations, nor the opinion of about 2/3 of Israelis who want a stable two state solution, i.e a clear separation of the communities.

In reply to Owen W-G:

I wish you would answer my question. When you do, I will try to explain that the accusation of a 48y illegal occupation is dangerously simplistic.

In reply to MikeTS:

What's your question? Was it "Again, killing a Rabbi at a bus stop is a morally acceptable act to you?"

If so I answered with Certainly not!

As for the official policy of Israel being 2SS, that is a total joke and you know it!

I quote the Likud party platform:
a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”
b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”

Likud's senior partner in ruling coalition, Bayit Yehudi, is even more staunchly opposed to 2SS and promotes annexation of most of the West Bank.

In reply to krikoman:

Breaking news. Another stabbing attack, on a 70 year old Israeli woman at the Jerusalem central bus station. Description, photos, video
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/201895#.Vh5_55R96Uk

In reply to Owen W-G:



Why qualified with 'If so' . I just told you where to watch video of his death!

In reply to Owen W-G:



The Likud party policy is irrelevant. It has 25% of seats in the Knesset. Less than the Labour Party in Parliament and I am sure it has some weird policy statements. And I am sure I could find some obnoxious ones in the Conservative positions too if I could be bothered. Every knows that party policy statements have nothing to do with actual government policy world wide.

In reply to MikeTS:

Israel is fooling nobody. Its ruling coalition is vehemently opposed to 2SS. Anyone who claims otherwise is either a liar or deluded.

In reply to krikoman:

850 years ago, a small relatively peaceful country was targeted by a military force of warlike foreigners. They came and went across the years. 400 years ago a determined settler campaign changed the entire cultural nature of a large section of the country. Huge numbers of native people fled to countries near and far across the centuries. Some of those who stayed behind fought hard to resist the incomers and their foreign masters.

Today, these running sores still bring division, emigration, conflict and death. They challenge the skills of politicians and diplomats from around the world.

With Ireland on our doorstep and in our headlines even this week, do we really have to wait until the 28th century to understand that it is wrong to steal somebody else's country?

In reply to Jim Fraser:

Your comment seems vague and and somewhat missing in detail.
It would be great if you could fill in other bits of information such as but not limited to; who the very first people to live in that area where and who came after them; what the archeological evidence says about who lived there; the roman conquest; the Arab invaders of the 7th century AD; the ottoman rule; the British mandate. Such information would enable us to have a better understanding of who took land from who, a common occurrence in those times and who might actually have a claim to that small piece of land.

In reply to MikeTS:

of course its not. its an appalling, senseless, repulsive addition to the nihilistic spiral of despair that the israelis and palestinians seem locked into.

but in response to your comments about the background of the attacker, and the comments you attribute to abbas- i dont believe you think educated middle class palestinians with good jobs are brainwashed automatons following their leaders edicts any more than i do. and its probably more productive to ask why someone like that would effectively engage in murder/suicide. what level of rage, despair and hopelessness need to come together to drive someone to do that?

well, more productive if you actually want to stop it happening again. because stopping 6 million people gaining access to sharp cutlery is going to prove tricky. and to most rational outsiders, going some way to address the issues that lead to this sort of act, such as the continued building of settlements, and the collective punishment of populations (or something so close to this it is essentially indistinguishable in practice), would seem utterly obviously the right thing to do to make israeli citizens safer. it is so very telling that this is not the path the israeli government takes; instead, it becomes ever more like a boot, stamping on a human face, forever.

In reply to Jim Fraser:


What a bizarrely bent reading of history.

What actually happened was that 1378 years ago the Mohammadeans forced the capitulation of a city, a city that they used to pray to. Their leader claimed to have visited the city in a dream, on a flying horse, who then flew him up to heaven, where he met the prophets of the Jews, who told him to go back to the Jews and tell them to follow him and not the old prophets. The Jews refused to follow him and so the Mohammadeans hated the Jews, stopped praying towards the city and choose their old city to pray to instead.

Unable to steal their religion, the Mohammadeans decided that the next best option was to steal their holy site instead. They renamed it al Aqsa and built their own Edifice in the place of the Temple.

1378 years later the Jews tried to access their old site, as they had done before and the Mohammadeans reacted with violence, throwing stones and fireworks at the Jews because they still hated them and didn't want Jews in the Edifice.


Or their country, their religion and their holy sites?

In reply to krikoman:

The whole antisemitism broad brush is still in use from the war. If we take the example of the mafia we can talk freely about the Russian mafia or Sicilian mafia for what they are. But it's much more difficult to criticize certain aspects of the Zionists without the anti-Semitic argument been applied.

In reply to John Simpson:

Things change from criticism to anti semitism if they fall into one of the three Ds:

Demonisation, ie blowing things out of proportion by comparing Israel to nazi germany or South Africa apartheid
Double standard ie ignoring the war crimes of other countries and soley focusing and bringing attention to Israel. Eg the UN
Delegitimisation denying Israelis existence or right to exist

In reply to Hodgey:

Well.... No, no really...

Israel = Country in the middle East
Israeli = Citizen of Israel
Anti-semitism = Hostility to or prejudice against Jews

You join the dots.

I could be anti-israeli policies, but not anti-semitist. If Israel happened to be the Promised Land of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster i could still be anti-israeli policies, but that wouldn't mean i was Anti-Spaghettiiist.

Get it? One is a country, the other a religion/ethnic group. Point of fact, there are thousands of Jews living in my neighbourhood, and most of them are anti-israeli policies. Are they anti-semitic Jews?

If i go on a march to protest at the Rwandan Embassy about genocide and human rights infringements, does that make me a white supremacist? They are all black there after all...

In reply to winhill:


Think you need to reread it after looking at the last sentence again.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:


Jeez, 'forever' is like, really long, you know?

I don't have the answer myself, but let's not be silly.

jcm

In reply to Hodgey:

>Delegitimisation denying Israelis existence or right to exist

Bollocks. That isn't antisemitism. ( at least assuming you meant 'Israel's right to exist'. I don't know what 'Israelis right to exist' means.)

jcm

In reply to winhill:


He's talking about Ireland but you knew that, didn't you?

In reply to MikeT

Just 26% of Israelis believe Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s commitment to the two-state solution is genuine.

http://m.jpost.com/?Mobileid=1#article=6017OTQ1RkYyMDQ2Mjg5RkJCNTJCNDVFQTk4...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



Yes. Eventually the sun will become a red giant and swallow up the earth in a fiery death. So that wasnt meant literally, it was a reference to Orwell, as you'll be well aware

Nor to I think that living in present say Palestine is an exact parallel to living in Oceania in 1984, before anyone starts.

My comment was 'becoming ever more like'- in that each phase of violence by Palestinians appears to lead to the Israelis taking ever more control over the basics of everyday life in the occupied territories- movement of people and goods, access to power and medicines; and ever more severe violence in return, the targeting of which appears to be inconsistent at best. The direction of travel of this process seems to be in one direction only. And given that it seems to be a basic human instinct to resist perceived oppression, it leads to ever more desperate and pathetic attempts to resist, which are met with ever harsher reprisals

The point of 1984 was that the state controlled not just the practical aspects of life, but citizens inner thoughts too, and the will to resist was destroyed. If Israel continues with its current approach, the only way it will succeed in stopping the sort of random acts of terror like those that have happened recently is to utterly destroy the will of Palestinians to resist their perceived occupation. If that occurs then parallels with Orwell will indeed be accurate, and a boot stamping in a mans face seems a fair enough metaphor.

And never mind a dystopian future, the present for Palestinians, and Israelis to be honest too, looks dystopian enough

In reply to MikeTS:


By arrest, so you mean shoot?

You like the rest of the world seem to be focusing on what's happening NOW. The reason Israeli's are being killed is for the last month, at least, the Israeli's have been killing women and children.

The very fact that they think it's OK to kill children, or any one for that matter, for throwing stones FFS!! should tell you something about what's happened.

If you can't see the Palestinian deaths as worth something to then it's you prejudices that may need examining.

Funny how there is video of Israeli's being killed yet, three weeks ago, the woman who supposedly had a knife was at an army check point where you might expect there to be cameras.

In reply to winhill:



Why are you putting words in my mouth, because that's how you want to see the protest?

The example was to show that the video had no context and could well have be paid for by anyone, but you knew that any way, you just chose to believe I was being anti-Semitic.

How do you know I'm not Jewish? Or does being Jewish, in your eyes, mean you have to agree with everything the Israeli government does?

Luckily there will be many Jewish people who choose to speak out and will be there on Saturday protesting a vociferously as any Palestinian.

Someone asked me the other day, "What about all the other killings in the world,are you just protesting because it the Jews?"

To which I said, "are you only NOT protesting because it's the Jews?" Which they then agreed it was because of that. A lot of people are frightened of being labelled anti-Semitic, but I learned long ago that this was a tactic used to prevent people from voicing their opinion. It ended up backfiring on them as more and more people decided to take a stand about the injustice of the situation.

Why don't you come down and find out, instead of making your mind up before hand?

In reply to Hodgey:



What like this you mean ? https://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=767468



I don't think we should ignore ANY war crimes, you don't discount one because another crime is happening elsewhere.


Agreed, it's the stealing of more land, the occupation and the blockading of Gaza (8 years and counting) that is not legitimate.

In reply to krikoman:
Are you as exercised about the maelstrom in Syria as you are about the comparatively stable situation in Israel? After all, Israel is a relatively open society with freedom of the press and opinion, courts that work, some civil strife but nothing remotely like the mayhem over its borders, in Syria, Lebanon and Egypt. In fact those Syrian citizens in the Golan heights are probably, ironically, the part of the Syrian population in the best situation at the moment, quite a few of them have applied for and received Israeli citizenship.

If not why not, is it just because you like slipping into your left-wing comfort zone, simple tales of black hats, white hats, moral absolutes and neat (but totally unworkable and insane), solutions? Because you are quite happy to insult and belittle Christianity or Judaism because you know that the response will be a hurt shrug, but would never dare to utter the slightest even faintly critical comment about "the religion of peace" or its "prophet" because you know the response would come from an AK 47 or a bomb? That you are in fact motivated by cowardice and self-righteousness, not high-minded morality?

Any chance whatever you might develop a sense of proportion, or do you just want the last relatively viable country in the region to join the others in chaos and human suffering?

In reply to Simon4:


Yes why shouldn't I be?

But you're using the second argument, after the anti-Semitism one fails, that of "never mind what we're doing, look what they are up to!!!"

well it doesn't wash, one bad deed isn't wiped out because someone else does another bad deed or even a worse bad deed.

Why have you turned this into a religion issue, my protest isn't that Jews are killing Muslims, it's that one party Israel are killing women and children without trial.

I wonder how long you keep taking shit before you DO something.

Why is Gaza still a prison camp 8 years on? It's about human dignity and respect.

My original post was to encourage people on UKC who because they were Jewish did attend previous marches because they mistakenly thought they would be a target of other marchers anger. When if fact it was the very opposite of that, Jewish people on the protest were thanked and respected for voicing their disdain at the actions of the Israeli government.

You can bleat on all you like about Jews and anti-Semitism, it isn't working any more people are seeing through the false claims and speaking out anyway.

If you want a sense of proportion why not ask the Israeli government why a 12 year old child was shot in the face for throwing a stone, why that child is classed as a terrorist for throwing a stone and why 500 children were killed last year during Israel's bombing of Gaza.

Like I said above "are you only NOT protesting because it's the Jews?" or do you happen to agree that protesters should be shot without trial or that people should be imprisoned for years without standing trial or that there should be one rule for some and another rule for others depending on your ethnicity?

In reply to krikoman:

That group of people whose sole participation in Jewish communal activities is writing to the Islington Chronicle about the ills of the Israeli government. What thrilling company you keep.

In reply to Mike Highbury:
Not really sure what you mean but, do you mean these guys?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta#/media/File:Members_of_Neturei_...


Because they were there at every protest I went to.

In reply to Mike Highbury:

You seem to be using the same broad brush, that paints all protesters as anti-Semites, to paint the Jewish protesters as all the same, there were many different Jewish groups from many parts of the UK, I was taking to a group from Scotland, don't see what they have to do with Islington.

Again this isn't about not liking Jews it about humanity and care for a fellow human beings who are being oppressed.

Stuff like this, http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/david-amos-gun-wielding...

While the rest of the world says fuck all http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/hillary-clinton-palestinians


Or am I making all of this up?

In reply to Simon4:


or do you just want the last relatively viable country in the region to join the others in chaos and human suffering?

This is precisely what I don't want. But is also, tragically, precisely where the last relatively viable country in the region seems inexorably to be heading, with the current Israeli government's policies and responses to events playing a full part in steering it that way.

The reason so many people are dismayed by Israels actions is not just because they sympathise with the Palestinians, though there is much to fuel such sympathy. It is also because they sympathise with the Israelis too, and see their governments actions as self defeating and harmful to their current and future security.

And also because they take Israels claims about being a western democracy at face value and hold the country to same standards they would other such nations. And are disappointed when it is found to come up very short of those standards indeed. The level of force and apparent lack of accountability in its use by Israeli police and security forces would not be accepted if it were used against a European population. And it is contributing to the sickening spiral of violence with no winners, only bereaved on all sides.

How very, very depressing.

In reply to krikoman:


In this case, shot to disable and then arrest

In reply to Owen W-G:




It depends I think on what form of 2 state solution you are talking about. I am sure he would be happy to see a stable, democratic, liberal Palestine that did not send murders and missiles into Israel. But. My point is that he represents a minority. Most polls still show a belief (decreasing) in a two state solution.

In reply to krikoman:



Gaza is a tragedy created by Hamas on its own people in the name of Islamic extremism.

The only limitations on imports from Israel are weapons, and also they try to ensure that dual use materials (like cement) are to be used for non-military purposes. Currently Israel supplies the majority of Gaza's electricity and water: even though they are not being paid for it.

If you want to complain, go to Egypt. It has bulldozed all houses along the Gaza - Egypt border, and flooded the tunnels with sewage. Unlike Israel, it allows nothing across the border because it is fighting a bloody conflict with a coalition of ISIS and Hamas in the Sinai.

In reply to krikoman:




But, of course, you didn't answer the question. Why are you not posting about Eritrea or North Korea? Why are you nor running threads about the Chinese occupation of Tibet? Why are you not vociferous about the plight of millions of ME refugees?

Why are did you select for your anger (and lies) the only state for Jews in the world?

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Many studies have shown (perversely) that suicide bombers and similar are not driven by being degraded economically and society. A disproportionate number are in fact well educated and employed. This is an interesting article by an Israeli Arab
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6669/palestinian-terrorists
He found the same pattern, that the Palestinians conducting stabbing attacks are often privileged.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:



You have no way of comparing. No Western democracy has been subjected to anything close to the amount of wars and terrorism that Israel has. Personally I think that Israel has done well to retain a democracy where, for example, the 20% Arab population has full citizenship rights. The classic example is that an Arab High Court judge recently sent the the President of Israel to jail for sexual harassment.

If the UK suffered from months of Muslims running over, throwing rocks at, knifing, and shooting non-Muslims (the situation for the last year in Israel) I suggest the UKIP would be elected in landslide.

In reply to krikoman:



Because stones kill and maim. Whatever the age of the thrower.

From Wikipedia

On 5 June 2001, Yehuda Shoham, a 5-month-old baby, was killed when a rock hurled by stone-throwing Palestinians crashed through the window of the car he was riding in, crushing his skull.
On 23 September 2011, Asher (25) and Yonatan Palmer were killed when the car Asher was driving was attacked by stone-throwing Palestinians, causing it to crash killing him along with his infant son.
On 14 March 2013, the Biton's family car was attacked, near neighboring village of Kif el-Hares, with stones which caused it to get out of control and collide with a truck. Adele Biton was critically injured along with her mother and 3 sisters who were moderately injured, and died two years later
On 14 September 2015 Alexander Levlovich (64) died early morning after Palestinian attackers pelted the road he was driving on with rocks as he was returning home from a dinner celebrating Rosh Hashana, the Jewish New Year.

In reply to MikeTS:
I'm guessing thousands of Palestinians have been killed since 5 June 2001. Do they count?

In reply to elsewhere:


Of which how many were a) terrorists b) prevented from leaving missile launch sites which the Israelis were targeting by terrorists c) supporters of terrorists
And don't forget that if not for the military superiority of the Israelis not only would the body count for Israel be higher as Hamas targets civilian areas but also the Palestinian count as the missile accuracy saves the civilian lives of those around terrorist buildings

In reply to Hodgey:

You can't possibly be serious. If one side in the palestine/israel situation are terrorists it's not the palestinians.

In reply to Removed User:

Terrorist - a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims.
Doesn't that sound vaguely like what's going at the moment. Never mind that they are indiscrimate of women or children.
There is and always has been an invitation to Abbas to come to an solution an tall. However he seems to be set on further inciting hatred through lies about the Temple Mount.

In reply to Hodgey:
So basically it's the other side's fault.

Which gets you absolutely nowhere.

For me it was well summed up above as...

... ever more like a boot, stamping on a human face, forever

That sums up "progress" since the oslo peace accord 21 years ago.

In reply to MikeTS:

You had to go back to 2001 FFS!

You are either blind or just don't want to see what's going on and Israel's disproportionate response. If it was av true democracy and all the people in it treated equally then there'd be Israeli children terrorists too, but they never get prosecuted for burning olive trees or throwing stones at Palestinians..

It wasn't that long ago Bibi was telling the world there will never be a two state solution.

So much for him wanting peace!!! I suggest you read up on some of his foreign ministers speeches before you blame the Palestinians for not wanting peace.

In reply to Hodgey:




See abvoe re forgeign minister.

And if you have kids imagine this scenario, "where's little Hodgey?"
"Dead!"
"Dead, how come?"
"He threw stone at a demo, so the coppers shot him. Turns out he was a terrorist"
"Ah! Fair enough then."

In reply to MikeTS:


Not as often as bullets, there are more Palestinians killed in the week previous to this latest conflict than all the people on your list. In fact there are probably more international journalist killed than you list.

In reply to MikeTS:


So there are six coppers standing around a 16 year old boy but the way they choose to subdue him, so they can arrest him is to hold him on he ground and shoot him in the leg.

If you think this is OK then I can only hope you receive the same treatment at some time in the near future.

In reply to MikeTS:



i dont accept this. in 1984 the IRA came within a whisker of assassinating the British government. there was another attempt in 1991, when downing street was mortar bombed. the queen's cousin was successfully assassinated. there were major bombs in several british mainland cities, with a severe death toll; and deaths in northern ireland ran at epidemic proportion. over 3500 people were killed, and over 50% of these were civilians.

i can personally recall crossing the border between the republic and the north on a minor road in 1993, and the car being searched by a soldier with an assault rifle, while another had his assault rifle ready to train on us at a moments notice. that night, a bomb went off in the town we were staying in.

claiming that no other western democracy has faced a terrorist threat close to what israel faces is just not correct; it underestimates the utter lethality of the terrorism associated with the irish troubles. i;m not aware that any palestinian terrorist has come as close to assassinating the israeli government as the IRA came to assassinating the british government

and the british did resort to unacceptable strategies faced with this- internment, shoot to kill. but they did not send tornados to cluster bomb suspected IRA targets in the Falls road, nor did a british frigate shell derry. and when the army did overstep its mark, at bloody sunday, we have had inquiries lasting decades into it.

thats how a western democracy responds to a severe terrorist threat. by trying to stay within the limits of the law, and by investigating itself when it falls short.

it also shows how a western democracy successfully deals with a terrorist threat- and it wasnt by killing and killing republicans until they behaved themselves.

oh, and i dont buy the line that the palestinian leaders are somehow impossible to negotiate with; that's just dehumanisation. this is a political conflict, over resources and land, just as the troubles were, and the only way it is ever going to be solved is by proper negotiations that acknowledge and deal with the wishes of both sides.

and while illegal settlement building continues the way it has, israel clearly has no intention of entering into such negotiations.

cheers
gregor

In reply to MikeTS:



hmmm. given the source of the information:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Gatestone_Institute

i'll take the conclusions with a pinch of salt. or certainly the slant that is put on them. i'm certain that the palestinians who are murdering jews are indeed doing it because they hate them. the real question is, why do they hate jews? i've no doubt part of it is indeed coming from a culture of antisemitism, with disgusting lies about the history of the jewish people and their activities today playing a part.

but that sort of banal racism is widespread, and doesnt seem to lead to epidemics of random stabbings of jewish people anywhere else. the sort of immediate, overwhelming hatred that drives people to kill a stranger, knowing that they will die in turn, isnt the province of tinfoil hat internet conspiracy theorists. if you want to understand why its palestinians killing israeli jews, then ignoring the effects of 60 years of israel's approach to counterterrorism has had is going to leave you with a massive hole in your understanding.

which then forces you to take the view that these people are just un-understandable and different from 'civilised' people. which makes it easier to justify treating them as a bit less human than you. which just feeds that vicious spiral of hatred, despair and violence.

and leads to lots more dead palestinians and israelis. i dont understand why both sides seem prepared to settle for that, but thats what seems to be happening.

edit: and re the background of the attackers, not having 'suffered harsh lives', and having cellphones and internet access- i'm not sure what's being argued here- that the trappings of materialist wealth make people blind to injustice and suffering in their fellow citizens? the article fundamentally misunderstands human motivations, and says more about the author and their values than it does about those being written about.

given how small palestine is, both geographically, and in population, and given the death toll over the last 30 years among palestinians, its hard to believe that these terrorists (i have no problem calling them that) have not had some experience of a family member, or friend, or neighbour, suffering injury or death due to the actions of the israeli security services. they can certainly watch the news and see their 'people' being meted out harsh treatment and injustice on a daily basis. the fact they dont live in a mud hut and can watch youtube is probably scant consolation to them.

if thats the sort of skewed and insightless nonsense that is forming opinions among israelis then the wedge between the sides is just going to get wider, and the suffering for all will go on

best wishes
gregor

In reply to MikeTS:



your other posts made valid points, and are worthy of debate. but this line of whataboutery, with its implication that criticism of israel's actions = antisemitism is unhelpful and just a form of ad hominem

i dealt with this at length when it was repeatedly raised by a regular poster on this subject during threads about the gaza crisis last year. here is the link, the relevant post is by me on 6th august 2014. suffice it to say, its nothing about israel being a state for Jews.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=594354&v=1#x7844131


edit: but not the post this link takes you to - its the really long post upthread from that, you'll know it when you see it....

In reply to krikoman:

Well, having waded through this thread, would I be right in assuming that no great leaps forward have been made?

I suspect if Isreal and the surrounding countries were nuked from orbit any survivors would pick up any handy implement and start clubbing each other to death.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:


You mean you dealt with it by making a cheap unsupported slur? Hardly the work of an intelligent commentator, more you simply went for you're more racist than me.

Thanks for digging that shit up again, good to see you've progressed since.

In reply to krikoman:



Still obsessed with the money? In the tin foil hat world of the conspiracy theorist it's rare to see someone make the allegation that a faked video was paid for, the fakery usually being the salient point and yet here you do it twice, you've normalised it.


It makes no difference if you're Jewish or not.

You can still churn out the same old rubbish, it's not been reported because of the ebil BBC (although they've been reporting the trouble at al Aqsa for weeks), that the Jews are killing women and children, the Jews started it.

The truth of the current situation is that the rabidly racist Palestinians decided that the Jews were trying to take over al-Aqsa and started a fight because of a nonsense rumour (that was started just to start a fight - it's nothing more than Are you looking at my bird?).

But this is hardly news because the muslims are always doing this, supported by muslims and their apologists world wide.

In reply to Mike Highbury:


No, I assumed he was talking about the Crusades!

Still bent though , the Pope told the Norsemen to sort out the Irish, nowt to do with the English - it was Catlick v Catlick.

The Norsemen took Albion as well, yet it burns so deep with the Irish, whilst the English seem to have moved on.

In reply to winhill:
nice to speak to you again too, winnie...

as i point out, the relevant post to this discussion is upthread from the one the link takes you to.

but the 'slur' you reference was neither cheap (in terms of time spent on the various threads leading up to it) nor unsupported, as anyone with enough time on their hands to plough through the various threads back then will see.

as for digging it up, no worries- i think thats one of the great features of ukc, everyone can look back and see what you said- and i'd encourage people to look at what you actually did say back then. my particular favourite was where you said you would 'not indulge me by responding to every point you think you've made in these very long posts'- well, you didnt even indulge me by responding to *any* point. And in fact still haven't, even with a second bite at the cherry...

It also saves me the trouble of having to compose a new response from scratch when people raise the same red herrings time after time.

and thanks for the compliment- practice makes perfect they say. i can't say the same for you- still using the old ad hominem strategy as a way to divert attention from the fact you don't actually engage with the points people raise. As can be seen on this thread.

New thread, same old winhill...

but, nice to hear from you- for a while i thought you might be ignoring me or something... glad to see thats not the case,

best wishes
gregor

In reply to winhill:


Pope Adrian IV aka Nicholas Breakspear. Lots of places around St Albans named after him for some reason.

In reply to Ridge:


I think both sides are even more confident the other is entirely to blame.

In reply to KevinD:


He made the beer in Henley run on time.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:


No, responding to a post on one subject by saying 'Yeah, well, You did something bad somewhere' is classic ad hom, it serves no other purpose.

Still trying to get your head round that one.

What about this.
youtube.com/watch?v=8rYCQjQkRGs&

In reply to krikoman:


Let me ask you, in a culture where the head of the palestinian authority is praising the terrorists as martyrs and they hand out sweets when there's a murder, if your throwing rocks at a group of civilians or soldiers, it's not just a bit of fun they know that if a rock hits somone it could kill, so why isn't a soldier justified to shoot first, isn't that self defense.

And for everyone's info no army gets it right all the time. A soldiers life is difficult even more so if your being attacked by people who have such a hatred for you they will blow themselves up to kill you. Dealing with that and making desicions in split seconds and we have the audacity to sit in our homes and judge those who are defending other people and putting their lives on the line.

In reply to Hodgey:
and we have the audacity to sit in our homes and judge those who are defending other people and putting their lives on the line.

You think soldiers should be above criticism and the law?

In reply to winhill:


Not when it's the same subject, and the same response. Then its entirely reasonable to point out you have a consistent pattern of engagement with threads on this subject. Which is not to engage at all with the criticisms of Israels actions, but instead to suggest that any criticism of Israel has its roots in the antisemitism of the poster. If that's not an ad hom strategy you follow, I struggle to see what is.

Indeed you even put a figure on it in the previous exchanges- i think it was 98% of criticism of Israel was antisemitic, in your view. I pushed hard to get from you what a legitimate criticism of Israel would look like, but with no success.

And a year on, here we are again- your contribution is derailing the thread off of analysis of what's happening in Israel and the occupied territories, and turning it into a personal dispute. Again, its notable that you did pick up on the post that ukc links to, but not the one above which I direct you to- ignore the substance, play the man, sadly that appears to be the limit of your engagement in this issue.

But go on, prove me wrong- nothing would give me more pleasure In relation to this thread than to have a serious debate with you, as you are clearly well informed, and have a strongly held position. So I'd be interested to see your thoughts on any of the following subjects:

- what is your position on the issue of settlers taking land in the occupied territories? Do you think the Israeli govts tactic support of this undermines overall security for Israelis as a whole? Do you think there is any intention to pursue a 2 state solution from the Israeli side? Does Israels antiterrorism strategy in your view play any part in increasing hostility towards Israelis and make it easier for the genuine well of antisemitism found in many cultures in the region to gain traction? Is the Israeli response in your view proportionate? Do you believe that the terrorist threat faced by Israel is unique, or do you accept that in terms of will and capability the threat posed by Irish republicanism was of a similar magnitude? And the big one, what would a non-antisemitic criticism of the policies pursued by the Israeli govt look like

As noted, I'd be delighted to debate any or all of these with you, and on the issues rather than our personalities.

Best wishes

Gregor

Edit: and a couple of other points - what do you believe the intention of Hamas is? The destruction of the state of Israel, the genocide of the Jewish people? Or do you think there is a prospect they could be engaged in negotiations which would lead to a stable, secure existence for Israelis and Palestinians? What would Hamas have to do for Israel to sign up to such a process? What do you think Israel would have to do to persuade Hamas to adopt a purely political strategy?

Obviously I'm not expecting a response to all of these, we have other calls on our time- but any would be a start...

In reply to Hodgey:


No, it's closer to murder.

Live fire on stone throwers is far beyond rules of engagement far beyond what uk military used in Northern Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan or uk police during riots. More generally democratic countries do not use live fire in response to stones.

In reply to elsewhere:

Indeed.

And yet, the motivation of Palestinians is held by many to be purely down to their own inherent racism, and nothing to do with their lived experience of interactions with those acting on behalf of the Israeli state.

Note: this does not mean that many Palestinians are not in fact racist; nor does it justify violence on Israelis. But if people want to understand the motivation of those carrying out the violence, then ignoring a major contributory factor is going to lead them to unhelpful conclusions

Best wishes

Gregor

In reply to winhill:



OK let's forget about the proposition that this bloke might have been paid to make the video, let's continue that he was in his own bathroom with his cat as the audience. My point being the video had no context whatsoever it showed one bloke, who was god knows where!!

Where as the woman who got shot a couple of weeks ago, the video there showed 2 soldiers pointing guns at her from the other side of a metal fence.

In reply to krikoman:

@Hodgey try this you might learn something http://972mag.com/israels-scapegoat-problem/112769/
50 years!!!

To everyone else.
I realise there are some people here who either don't care or refuse to see what's really happening but this post wasn't really for you, unless you'd like to break some of the prejudices you hold and actually come and see that the protesters aren't rabid anti-Semites or fanatical Muslim would be suicide bombers. When in fact they are ordinary everyday people from all walks of life, who care and believe that this has gone on too long and we need to put pressure on the people who can actually make a difference.

The original post was aimed at someone on UKC who, sometime last year, said they were Jewish and liked the idea of the protest but were frightened they'd be a target for hatred and anti-Semitism if they turned up.

Like I said at the time nothing could be further from the truth, they'd have been congratulated and thanked.

Well now is you chance https://www.facebook.com/events/485525934982604/

To the others who think the protesters are anti-Semitic - Jew haters then you are welcome to keep your head clean of any doubt, keeping thinking it's Jews against the world. I realise this post or this protest isn't going to change you mind because you don't want it too.

But you could come down and have a look see if you prejudices are true at least, see how many different Jewish groups are there and then you can call them "bad" Jews or maybe they are anti-Semitic too.

See you there, I'll be the one with the Palestinian flag

In reply to krikoman:




What he said, as you well know (I am NOt a Bibi supporter) was that he did not expect peace. It was a prediction, not an aspiration . And the reason of course was the palestininan history or walking away from peace negotiations and inciting violence.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:




In the current knife attacks, the reason given by the protagonists and the inciters is that they hate Israeli Jews because of a false claim that Israel is changing the status quo at Al Aqsa. I cannot understand why people thousands of miles away, and largely ignorant of the issues, attribute to people different motives from the ones screamed out in videos and attacks. Why not believe what they say - they want to kill Jews?

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:


You still avoid my question. I am not doing whataboutery. I suspect anti-semitism but of course anyone like you competent in social media can skirt this with impunity.
So I am still trying to find out why you have selected Israel as your issue..

In reply to Hodgey:

FYI this is basically the EU test of anti-semitism
I think krikoman fails number 2.

In reply to elsewhere:



All deaths are a tragedy. Which is why a child with a rock that can kill can be a terrorist.

In reply to MikeTS:

See your No.2 above.

And yes I am as concerned about any other war crime, though we (the UK and US governments) haven't supported the others like we have Israel for the last 48 years, when we have the power to speak out, and choose not to.


And you're blaming the whole of the UN for being anti-Semitic. FFS!! talk about tinfoil hats.

In reply to MikeTS:


What he said, as well you know!!! Was http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-election-2015/1.647212 which give lie to everything he'd been saying previously, blaming the Palestinians for not wanting peace or discussion regarding a two state system.

In reply to krikoman:



What exactly? Are you waving Tibet flags outside the Chinese embassy? Are you helping Eritrean refugees? Haveyou tried to enter North Korea to protest? Frankly, I don't believe that you care about much else.

In reply to krikoman:


This was an incorrect report by Haarez (which is even more anti-Zionist than you!).
Bibi clarified it a month later, as I tried also to explain above. “I haven’t changed my policy,” Netanyahu insisted. “I never retracted my speech at Bar-Ilan University six years ago calling for a demilitarized Palestinian state that recognizes a Jewish state.”

“What has changed is the reality,” he continued. “[Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas] the Palestinian leader refuses to recognize the Jewish state and has made a pact with Hamas that calls for the destruction of the Jewish state, and every territory that is vacated today in the Middle East is taken up by Islamist forces. We want that to change so that we can realize a vision of real, sustained peace. I don’t want a one-state solution. I want a sustainable, peaceful two-state solution, but for that, circumstances have to change.”

In reply to MikeTS:


You are free to believe what you will, you obviously believe that Israel can do no wrong and that anybody who speaks out against Israel's actions are anti-Semitism.

So I BELIEVE nothing could change your mind or even make you question the actions or Israel or that the Palestinians might have some valid grievances, but like I said you can believe what you like, if it makes you feel better to believe I'm and anti-Semite and that everyone on the protest is anti-Semitic too then that is you prerogative, you can keep your blinkers on as long as you like, it doesn't make what you say true.

But once again you are using the "whataboutary" argument, which not three posts ago you said you weren't!!

In reply to krikoman:
I think you misunderstand the term whataboutary. It is used to establish a form of moral equivalence. So person A can say 'this country is bad' and person B counters 'not true, what about countries B and C who do the same.'

My question to you is still why you appear to be an activist against only Israel? It is a simple question, surely?

In reply to MikeTS:

Israel's denial of 'lies' that it is trying to change status quo on Temple Mount is undermined by fact that it has been granting Temple Mount access to activists and organisations who's objectives are specifically to change the status quo on the Temple Mount, including groups dedicating to building a 3rd Temple on the site.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/temple-mount-activist-to-mark-botched-assassin...
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Likud-Youth-ascend-to-Temple-Mou...

In reply to MikeTS:


How am I supposed to prove this? Do you want copies of letters I've send to my MPs or reciepts for donantions to charities and support groups.

Listen you've branded me an anti-Semite, nothing I say is going to change your view so you are free to continue to think that. You can keep saying it until you die, it's not going got make it true. You're insulting and prejudiced in equal quantities, shame on you!

Regardless of my Jewish friends and family members.

Even if I was anti-Semitic, what about all the Jewish group who will be protesting tomorrow too?

Are they anti-Semitic?

And in relation to your insinuation earlier that it was one group from Islington, again I suggest you come and see for yourself, if you are wrong about that then you just might be wrong about a number of other things.

In reply to MikeTS:
Attempts to change focus on Israel's human rights abuses and dismissal of international law and opinion towards people's 'obsession' with Israel is a shallow attempt to avoid difficult questions with implication that activist has sinister motives in their unique hostility towards Israel.

There are a number of reasons why Israel gets more attention than other, larger conflicts.
1. Britain's historical role in the region and responsibility for current conflict stemming from Mandate era and before.
2. Britain's long term interest in the region from its heritage as a Christian nation, and involvement dating back to crusades.
3. Fact that Israel is supposedly 'one of us', oriented towards western culture, being a trade partner, Israel playing EU football etc. Israel is a friend, unlike Hamas or China for instance, and its behaviour is judged by our moral standards. Israel wouldn't have it any other way.
4. Israel itself holds itself to high standards, being a light unto nations, having most moral army in world etc.

I'll add a fifth, and more personal reason for unique fascination with conflict. Anyone interested in ancient history of Middle East can view the I-P conflict as part of the continuity of that history. For anyone interested in history, I-P is a fascinating real-time soap opera being played out in a historical setting.The politics of the conflict remains an ever-present theme in international politics. For instance the role that demonstrable support for Israel has to play in US politics is bizarre, and will be questioned by historians in years to come.

You ask why activitists are uniquely obsessed with Israel. Turn that on its head. Why are US politicians too uniquely obsessed with Israel?

In reply to MikeTS:

There are many and varied possible criticisms of the pro-Palestianian supporters here, but asking 'why Israel' is completely the weakest and most irrelevant. It's the slight that gets thrown at people working on *any* issue/topic, and is flawed in so many ways as to make it a lazy and pointless question.

In reply to MikeTS:


Self evidently your last words are true. The question is, why do they hate Jews so much they are willing to trade a materially acceptable existence for certain death in a hail of Israeli bullets in order to actually do so?

From what I can see, your perspective is that this nothing more than straightforward racism, fed by the swirl of poisonous material about Jews that undoubtedly pollutes the Internet, and goaded by misrepresentation of Israels actions re the al aqsa by Palestinian leaders. There appears to be no place in your formulation for the impact living under occupation, and at times sustained military attack, and relentlessly expanding settlement, has on the world view and attitudes of Palestinians, and the contribution this could make to the hatred that fuels these, and other, attacks

As an outsider who tries to maintain an impartial view (just being in disagreement with you does not mean I am therefore an unequivocal supporter of the Palestinians) this looks like a convenient mental sleight of hand to avoid having to deal with the consequences of the latter position. And sadly, given that the process of interaction between the Palestinian population and Israeli security forces appears to be on a negative spiral, with ever more desperate acts of violence leading to ever more repressive responses, until this is taken into account, it looks like both sides are locked into a cycle of misery for the foreseeable future,

Best wishes

Gregor

In reply to MikeTS:
I've told you- see my post last night, where I link back to a similar thread last year. I wrote a rather lengthy essay setting out about 6 reasons why this conflict generates greater reaction that many others. No apologies for the length- it's a complex issue and can't be reduced to sound bites. Read that then get back to me. I'd cut and paste, but still haven't worked out how to do that on this device.

And- this isnt the only conflict I post about. If I'm recognised for anything on here, its probably as the person that argued ad nauseam with Bruce Hooker about the Falkland Islands, on several threads over a number of years. the fact i havent recently is mostly due to bruce being banned, i suspect.

and, The fact I'm arguing about Israel and the palestinians on this thread, and not about another conflict, is mainly because this is a thread about Israel and the Palestinians...

So, if you are genuinely interested in why I, and I expect many others, do become more involved in debates on this subject than ones on say, south Sudan, then read the post I linked to,

Best wishes

Gregor

In reply to MikeTS:

The classification and shooting of children as terrorists is morally bankrupt.
That's no double standard as it would be condemned if it happened in any democracy that is supposed to be respected for not behaving like a dictatorship or murderous regime.

In reply to elsewhere:

Yes I'd missed that.

If that is a widely held view among mikes compatriots, then the terrorists have already won.

In reply to elsewhere:
A child throwing rocks with his mates at heavily armed occupation forces in occupied territories is not really a terrorist by any dictionary definition.

Israel's supporters are comforted to call these kids terrorists as it eases the cognitive dissonance generated when the IDF shoots them.

In reply to MikeTS:


I noticed you've change your language there, I was an anti-Semite yet Haarez are anti-Zionist. It appears, like Israel you have double standards depending upon who you are talking about, Palestinians throwing rocks are terrorists, Isreali kid throwing rocks; settlers.

Meanwhile in the rest of the world "settlers" are called insurgents.

How do you explain this?

In reply to elsewhere:


Complete bullshit - check out the Human Rights Watch report from about 10 years ago when there was a fashion for using underage suicide bombers, Al Aqsa Martyrs, Islamic Jihad, Hamas all condemned for the practice.

Bear in mind that for many islamic communities children reach adulthood at 15 - see India's Personal Law for example.

In reply to winhill:


Indeed. And most people would class dead 14 and 15 year olds as victims of disgusting grooming and abuse, and every bit as much victims of terrorism as the others their actions killed. And wwould class their abusers ie hamas et al as the terrorists.

The approach you appear to be taking has echoes of the way the abuse scandals that have hit many northern cities in England were seen- with the underage girls involved labelled as willing participants in a range of criminality. But of course they weren't, not in any meaningful way; they were victims of abuse being conducted on an industrial scale, with the authorities attitudes enabling rather than tackling it.

Of course tge parallels are not exact; in thr child suicide bombers examples there are other victims too. But underneath there is the same process: vulnerable children being groomed by vile adults to engage in acts that will harm, indeed kill, them by adults whoae evil is beyond description. Calling such children terrorists rather than tragic victims just adds to the list of their abusers and solves nothing

Best wishes

Gregor

In reply to winhill:

>>The classification and shooting of children as terrorists is morally bankrupt.



OK let's clarify things a little more, forgive me for stealing your words. "The classification and shooting of children as terrorists, FOR THROWING STONES, is morally bankrupt.

Can we at least be in agreement with this statement?

And then there's always the imprisonment without trial or is that OK too?

In reply to krikoman:

How was the march?

In reply to winhill:

All sorts of odious people view children as combatants. I don't have to use their views to justify my own.


Almost the same as the uk then where we have all sorts of ages in law but consensus on 16.

In reply to Sir Chasm:


It was OK, would have been better with a few more people there, another 200,000 would have been nice, but never mind.

There's always next time.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:


Rubbish, you're just making shit up here.

Barely 2 weeks ago a 15 year old from Blackburn was sentenced to Life in Australia for directing an Anzac Day beheading plot.

There was no outcry over his extradition, his sentence the same. He was 14 at the time of the offence.

Don't you guys keep up with this stuff? Or do you just reinvent a new narrative each time it comes up for discussion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-33702185

In reply to elsewhere:


Of course not, although you may find it helpful if you did use their views.

What do we do with 'children' (we have no clue as to how you're defining that) who commit terrorism offences?

Rename the crime as Diddicide and pretend it's something else?

Or do we charge them with terror offences but not refer to them as terrorists? So we call them Diddymen instead?

There's no moral point being made here at all.

In reply to winhill:






Probably best not to claim others are "making shit up" or "reinventing a new narrative" when you misinterpret/misrepresent what happened.

His sentence, though "life", was a minimum 5 years.
He wasn't extradited, but dealt with in the UK.

And as an aside, that report refers to him being groomed and also states The youth had found an online jihadist community through his first smartphone which "filled a void" caused by problems he was having at school and at home as well as a degenerative eye condition.

In reply to winhill:


but throwing stones isn't a terrorist offence is it?

It especially isn't when it's some Jewish boy throwing the stones.

Mean while in the real world https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/21377-israel-demolished-...

Now that could well be classed as terrorism.

And this poor lass wasn't really a terrorist either, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie but she's still dead.

http://www.euromedmonitor.org/en/article/962/Euro-Med-Monitor-report:-Israe...

In reply to winhill:

I don't regard them as moral paragons to emulate by classifying children as terrorists or combatants.


Strangely enough I define children as 16. Wierd huh? Hardly out of line with the uk consensus I mentioned.

Treat them like children who commit crime.

>Rename the crime as Diddicide and pretend it's something else?

Call it what it is - stone throwing. Don't pretend it is anything else.


Every other elected government has decided that lethal force or live fire is not proportionate for stone throwing.
Every other elected government thinks live fire is not a morally justified policy for stone throwing.

Shooting or not shooting people is definitely a moral issue.

In reply to elsewhere:


I'm not sure where your consensus comes from 18 is the age of majority in most developed couintries - you can't even join a climbing wall before 18, without a guardian signing for you.



Ah, you mean stone throwing - nothing to do with calling children terrorists then?

In reply to off-duty:


I put up a link so people could follow it for themselves, hardly an attempt to misrepreent anything.


Actually I capitalised Life to show it was a proper noun, you know, it means it refers to something specific, in this case a jurisdictions particular concept of a life sentence.


My bad, I thought I read he was interviewed in Australia, oh dear.


That's mitigation, what's it got to do with whether it's morally bankrupt to refer to him as a terrorist.

Although the court seems to have been particularly unsympathetic to his claims that his eye made him do it.

In reply to winhill:

As off duty says, best tone down the accusatory rhetoric when your grasp of the facts looks shaky at best. Don't you guys ever actually read the links you post...?

And: being groomed into committing an offence clearly doesn't absolve the criminal responsibility for the act. It does offer a valid mitigating factor at the point of sentencing, which looks like was the case in the example you (mis)quoted. And at some point this young man will be released from prison: which do you think will be a more useful framework to adopt when working with him between now and then, and more likely to make society safer on his release- that he's a bad terrorist who deserves to be treated harshly, or that he's a vulnerable young man who needs to be helped to find an identity that doesn't involve cutting people's heads off?

Winhill, perhaps if you stopped swearing and engaged with the discussion constructively instead of posting your usual cocktail of dismissive hostility and accusations of antisemitism, these threads might be a more interesting place. It seems unlikely that you actually enjoy posting the drive-by ad hominems that make up your intermittent contributions to all threads on Israel/Palestine, as that would be odd... In times gone by both Bruce hooker and Shona/naedanger/etc could dish out a fine line in barbed comment; but they actually had something to say as well, if you could get past the rudeness. It would be more interesting if you did too,

Best wishes

Gregor

In reply to winhill:

If that's the case then you're extending the definition of children towards 18 and making it even less justifiable to shoot them.


Are you drunk? When I post using words like 'stone throwing', 'children' and 'terrorist' then it has something to do with 'stone throwing', 'children' and 'terrorist'.

In reply to winhill:




Probably recent graduates, of the Hamas summer school, for baby Islamonazis?
http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-paramilitary-camps-prepare-teens-for-mar...

In reply to winhill:

Ps you keep moving the goalposts here- the debate started with the labelling of stone throwing children as terrorists- you then brought up the issue of child suicide bombers. Now when I address that, you link to an incident of incitement to commit terrorist acts on another continent from Israel.

So, bringing back to what was originally being talked about- do you consider children throwing stones at security services as terrorists, and is the use of live fire a legitimate tactic in dealing with this?

And re child suicide bombers- without doubt they have carried out a terrorist act ; that doesn't preclude them from at the same time being victims. It surely takes a hard heart not to feel dismay at both the victims of such bombers, and the stupid and senseless loss of the life of a child who suffered the ultimate form of abuse at the hands of the people he/she trusted.

Best wishes
Gregor

In reply to dek:

if what that article says is true, what do you think Israels response should be?

In reply to winhill:



Not sure how you reach that facetious conclusion. Given the sentences handed down for other terrorist plots, something made the judge take a lenient view. Perhaps UK judges do view vulnerable children both as perpetrators and victims at the same time, and adjust their decisions accordingly?

Cheers
Gregor

In reply to elsewhere:



What you posted , on Friday at 13:49

was

The classification and shooting of children as terrorists is morally bankrupt.

Not these children, all children, I've simply shown that is not the case in Law. Why children should not be classified as terrorists, whatever their actions, you haven't explained.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:


What wouldn't it be 'true'? You've asserted you know a lot of the 'crimes' the Israels commit, why aren't you informed regarding Hamas terror camps?
Are you saying the Arab kids are being 'abused' in the jihadi camps, where they are taught to kill Jews, it looks as though they are all happy to be there, best ask Corbyn, after all he says they are his 'friends' in the middle east?
Oddly enough, he refused to grant an interview the the Jewish paper in London, who wanted his opinion.
Btw
How would 'you' like the Israelis to respond, to training camps for Junior jihadis?

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:


Ooh someone said Shit! It's this sort of sanctimonious bollocks that stopped me engaging with your shit in the first place, the rest of your post, is a typical 'my shit don't stink' ad hominem, you just think the phrase doesn't apply to you.

best passive/ aggressive wishes

In reply to winhill:

Funny how guardianistas are 'horrified' when adulterers are 'stoned'...but it's just 'kids' when the target of hundreds of adults, doing the same, hoping for the same outcome are Jewish?

In reply to dek:

I asked you first dek...

Come on, instead of just sniping from the sidelines, actually contribute to the debate: if Hamas is turning out thousands of kids indoctrinated into hating Israel and trained to engage in violence against it, what should Israels response be?

In reply to winhill:



If you say so. Though your regular metaphorical flouncing out of the room always seems conveniently timed to avoid having to actually address any of the issues of the debate, after your 'smearing as antisemitic' gambit is called out...

Cheers
Gregor

Ps I don't think you said shit often enough in that last sentence- could you fit a few more into your next post...

In reply to dek:



Funny how you have to fall back on lazy stereotyping and creating straw men...

Any chance of an argument that isn't riddled with fallacies?

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:



Oh if you insist.....'crowd control' y'know? same as other elected governments do in that part of the world, not that there's many elected left.

Now, you've avoided mentioning the video, and epidemic of 'Stabbing Jihad'.The 'Kinkyman' asserted it's nothing but a bloke in his bedroom, with a video, citing mohammeds slaughter of the 'Jews'. ...whadya reckon eggy, just another coincidence Jews again are having meat cleavers, and knives stuck in them?......what to do?

Ps, Eggy
I reckon Win hill's forgotten far more about Religion, dogma and terror, in the middle east, than you'll ever, get you opinionated coating around.

In reply to dek:

Crowd control? Can you be more specfic?

Hard to follow the middle bit of your post- are you suggesting i don't think that the people murdering Jews are antisemites who hate Jews? Because that would be daft- of course they are!

I dealt with this in reply to mikeTS upthread a couple of nights ago- see my answer to him.

And re winhill, that's possibly true, but he never seems to post enough to tell. He's certainly the best as swearing though...



Gregor

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/a6692536.html
I laughed and I shouldn't have....

In reply to PeterM:

It's not just that one though is it, the IDF shot a Jewish fella the other day, because he looked like an Arab.

The Soma;i Jews have been protesting against their unequal treatment by the Israeli government.

In reply to dek:


What's up with you?? FFS!

Please don't put words into my mouth, I realise you're supporting Isreal here but there's no need to use their tactics too.

I didn't assert anything, I merely postulated that given there is no context in the video, it could easily be some bloke in his own bathroom, I open to other suggestions. Maybe he was at Mecca and had an audience of 2 million, but the video doesn't show anyone else except him, there's no indication of anyone else being there at all.

Where as we have seen a number of videos where Israeli forces have either beaten the wrong people up, believing them to be Arabs or we've seen people shot and then knives dropped on the floor near them after the fact.

You also seem to have missed the point that this recent wave of violence come after weeks of such attacks on Palestinians, but we wouldn't want to muddy things with facts would we?

My! Netanyahu is a bit of a lying cnut!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/21/netanyahu-under-fire-for-pales...

That justifies the slaughter....

In reply to PeterM:





Well why not, he's found the reason after 70+ years, it make you wonder why reason he was using before he discovered this recent information, unless he's just been sat on it keeping it for when it might come in useful.

It really makes you think how anyone, especially governments, could believe a word he says, sometimes the fantasy takes over I think.