UKC

After reading the article in the current issue of the MCofS mag 'Scottish Mountaineer' I still can't get my head around the point of this utterly pointless genre of climbing. How can it not totally trash the rock? Especially 'soft' slate? Why not use your hands and feet like normal climbing and why, or should I say, how can drytoolers say they don't climb future rock climbs when they simply can't possibly know if someone is going to be strong/good/brave enough to climb that piece of rock sometime in the future? Just cos they think it's a shitty quarry doesn't mean everyone does! Someone may want to rock climb there someday but all the rock will have been trashed.
Still to playing with your tools indoors where you can't do any damage!!

In reply to FedUp:

Agree generally but the odd poxy quarry may be ok for it but then again who decides that?

Its sport chipping.

In reply to Yorkspud: if the press stop giving these bloody dry toolers any recognition then we might not get tossers trying it out on our local crags...........Various bits of Earl Crag have been trashed by people who fancy themselves as "dry toolers" ROCK WON'T GROW BACK!

In reply to Removed User: Agreed! I've not got a problem if drytoolers want to play indoors but leave the rock alone please.

In reply to FedUp:
Why drytooling? Well of course to practice for mixed conditions...
Your concerns about ruining the seemingly intensively used british rock might all be very true, still, this discussion to me very much seems to have an air of hatred towards something you don't know.
A few months ago I waved the idea of rock-climbing fully, and thought it was ridiculous to climb up somewhere if you could just as well walk up on the other side. Now that I've started a little climbing myself I quite like it
I think you guys are just all envious of people that are crazy enought to do stuff like this freak here: http://www.eisklettern.ch/index.htm

In reply to Almut Scherer:

Perhaps you should inform yourself a little better before being so judgemental?

In reply to Almut Scherer:

.....and that picture is just the sort of climbing porn that prompts these people to " 'ave-a-go"

In reply to FedUp: It's a bit rich one climber complaining that another facet of the sport is utterly pointless.

The utter pointlessness of climbing is well documented and is inherent in it's appeal.

In reply to Almut Scherer:


Some very very impressive looking stuff and some good photos, its a shame I don't speak German so couldn't understand much of the text, but the pictures speak for themselves.

Nevertheless, this photo grabbed my attention in a different way: http://www.eisklettern.ch/pix_fotos/2002/f_06_400.jpg Perhaps the answer to all our Ben Nevis belay difficulties? No more worried hours spent lashed to a half-in knifeblade, a wobbly no.2 nut and you axes optimistically pushed into some semi-consolidated snow!

In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Climbing is pointless and contrived, agreed. However, climbing stuff with tools and 'poons that could (should?) be climbed with hands and feet takes the biscuit don't you think?

In reply to FedUp:

So this chap http://www.eisklettern.ch/pix_fotos/indexfoto_580.jpg should hang off the crimp with his left hand whilst he puts his crampons on then should he?

In reply to FedUp:

I watched the Black Diamond DVD that came with OTE and was left thinking that it was impressive, in its way, but it just didn't appeal. In particular the indoor training seemed extremely contrived. It really did look as if it would be easier to just drop the picks and use your fingers.

The main skill seemed to be how to rest using figures of 4 in positions where you wouldn't be able to rest climbing without picks. But didn't this used to be known as aid climbing?

Still, as said above, as long as no natural crags are damaged, who am I to say that something is pointless?

In reply to TobyA:
Yeah.

In reply to TobyA:
But if you read my post I was actually refering to pure drytooling routes. Not mixed routes.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

must go now of to chip a few holds so I can get up Brad Pitt

In reply to FedUp: dilution for consumption, thats all drytooling is. Bolting up routes is what it is really about. until now winter climbing was inherently bold, to a greater or lesser degree. DT is just sports climbing. Thats why it will take off here, because worthless individuals unknown in other climbing disciplines (as they lack the skill/balls) can make a name for themselves promoting dt while it is still in its infancy in the uk. Once it takes off here, and it will, many of these individuals will once again fade away as competion becomes more than just a handful of punters. It makes me feel sick that dt is being actively promoted in uk crags. People have used it for training for years (i have) but mostly on dry stone walls and the like, not f88king climbing venues. Whats next? bolt up all the routes in scotland that are mostly dry???

In reply to sandyman:
Couldn't have put it better myself.
Notice how no-one has attempted to seriously defend drytooling on this thread? Is it because there is no defence?

In reply to FedUp: who are you to say what climbing is or isnt?? or how it should or shouldnt be done!

In reply to Anonymous:
Since when was I saying that? Can't I express opinions now eh?

In reply to FedUp:

maybe no one has tried to defend dt because they realise that what they are really defending is only a matter of personal opinion.

just because you think it is wrong does not mean it is. this really comes down to personal philoshopies dosent it.

if you think theres a rock route there what gives you the right to climb it and not the person wishing to climb it dt style.

one final point has to be dont you realise that everytime you climb you damage the rock so if it bothers you that much that the rock is being damaged you probably ought to think about not climbing and letting everyone else be.

live and let live.

In reply to ben: How can I damage the rock everytime I climb?

In reply to FedUp:

take yourself outside and have a word dude...........

In reply to FedUp:

if you need to be asking that question then you probably should have thought about why you posted this thread.

everytime you place a nut chalk a hold or wear your rockshoes you erode the rock. its simple it happpens and it cant be avoided and is therefore generally ignored by the vast majority of climbers. im not saying its wrong. i climb and i do it therefore it would be a bit hypocritical of me to slate you for damaging the rock in this way.

all im saying is why is this kind of damage socially accepted to the point where it is ingnored but damage from other types of climbing socially rejected.

who decides right and wrong.

In reply to ben:
I was being flipant then when I said that comment in the last posting I made.
However the minute damage to the rock 'done in normal use' it totally irrelevant compared to the damage from drytooling. Get real mate. No comparison. It's like comparing the damage done to road surfaces from HGV's and pedestrians.
We all have opinions on this site. Mine is that drytooling is wrong, so live with it.

In reply to FedUp:


i wasnt trying to wind you up but obviously i have. im not sayin dt is right or wrong only that if a person chooses to do it then why do climbers in general not just your goodself have the right to tell them they cant do it.

obviously this topic is something you feel very strongly about as do many others who post on these forums. i am only suggesting that you should live with fact there is no right or wrong in this debate. only the right and wrong individuals allow themselves to percieve.

have you ever read the games climbers play by lito-tejada flores. youd find it intersting. if you work out how it applies to this argument maybe you might not get so aggitated about it. try coonyard mouths off by yvon chouinard too or even anything ever written about robbins and harding or even salthe in yosmite.

this argument is not new and will probably not go away so i will leave you with this final thought

chill out. its only a game.

In reply to FedUp: dry tooling is a completly differant way of climbing all together it takes skill and precision with the placament of your tools being able to climb a non route that would normaly look dirty uninviting and well out of your rock climbing skill is fantastic,

Give it a go and you may change your mind oh and its not for the faint harted

In reply to FedUp: I totally agree, dry tooling in this situation, is the same as bolting in certain venues where someone may be able to freeclimb that piece of rock in the future without bolts. Tools are for ice and snow not rock.
I may be getting old but the old principles still apply.

In reply to Removed User:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=31469#429695

In reply to famous last words: yep your quite right and that was befor i gave it a go now i can't get enough of it i take every thing back and appologise for all that was said.

But its true unless you haven't done it then keep your opinions a little calmer than mine used to be. its magical

In reply to Removed User: Its amazing what can happen in twelve months and a bad winter my ice tools just want to be used

In reply to ben and rob h:


fight fight fight!!! my money's on the little ginger dude!

jude xx

In reply to Removed User:
God where has all the tradition gone out of our Great British climbing.

In reply to FedUp:

Invdividual freedom to do what you like is only acceptable up to the point where it infringes other people's freedom (or words to this effect). Drytooling obviously damages the rock infinitely more than climbing with rubber soled boots or shoes (if you deny this you are just being dishonest), so by destroying existing climbs you infringe the freedom of others.

Already many climbs in popular areas are being ravaged by polishing, after only a few decades the difficulty of certain routes has increased dramatically. Imagine the result of the same amount of dry tooling! Whether it's good fun or not is not the question.

We have an obligation to future generations to treat public domains reasonably, as I'm sure most climbers agree. My conclusion would be to say reserve dry tooling for areas which are not suitable for normal climbing, chalk, soft sandstone sea cliffs, mud slopes etc.

Last question, how long does gear last? Don't you reckon the whole dry tooling fad has been set up by gear manufacturers?

In reply to FedUp:


They are not different things - dry-tooling is a term that originated in the States in the early 90s, particularly as a result of Jeff Lowes ascent of Octupussy and the media interest that generated. It doesn't mean "climbing routes in summer with tools" or even "climbing routes in winter that don't have ice on them at all". It does mean "climbing rock with tools".

In which case I think dry tooling summer routes is pretty silly, contrived, and will cause unnecessary conflict. I think even climbing routes in ice climbing areas that have no ice on them (Scott Muir did a route like this last year in Norway, I think it was in Rjuken) is also contrived and rather silly but if the locals don't object - then each to their own. Dry tooling to link ice features is perfectly sensible, it is simly "mixed climbing". From an aesthetic point of view, I think routes which are 50% or more ice are the best lines, because as someone French (might have been Thierry Renualt) said, what's to stop some one from dry tooling the entire south face of the Midi to get to a 2 mtr icicle at the top.

Whoever said tools are only for snow and ice has clearly never climbed in Scotland!

In reply to FedUp:

What dt is, its impact on the rock etc are one thing. Indeed, many winter routes in scotland are pretty much dry tooling rather than mixed anyway, savage slit often gets done in 'non-winter' conditions and there is a notable lack of turf, for example.

The real issue for me, is not whether it is right or wrong in terms of the actual climbing, its the fact that nearly all routes that are termed 'dry tooling' are f*cking bolted. A route such as savage slit, without bolts, is termed mixed, although in reality there is no difference in the techniques used to climb it.

It seems to me the term dt is used to denote a BOLTED route wheras no bolts render it mixed.

In reply to sandyman: There are lots routes with drytooling on them that are trad protected some onsighted first ascents - Pokamoonshine in the Adronicks (sp?) for example - M 7+ lots of death potential.

In reply to TobyA:

Thats correct toby, just as there are many 'mixed' routes in france and elsewhere that have bolts on them. The point toby, is we are talking about the uk and scotland in particular, not the Adirindaks, France, italy or elswhere. One can always find an exception to the rule but the debate about drytooling has been raised in the light of recent developments in the uk, ie. Wankers bolting routes and claiming its ok as they are dry tooling routes. That raises two issues. One, why is it ok if its a dry tooling route and two, would there have been a different response if it was claimed that it is ok as the route is mixed?

In reply to FedUp:
It's obvious with a sensitive topic such as this that people will either strongly agree or disagree with certain points.
however my main point in question regarding drytooling was and still is this:
Does it, or does it not, excessivly damage the rock in an accelerated and aggressive fashion?
If the answer is 'no' then carry on with what you're doing and tell the likes of me to sod off.
However, if the answer is 'Yes' then surely it has got to stop being promoted and pursued at outdoor venues?
Indoor comps? Fun and not a problem. But surely outdoor drytooling needs to be seriously looked at?

In reply to ben:
Hang on a minute. Chouinard and Robbins both used aid on all their early routes. Then they saw the damage that was being done so they freed everything and stopping aiding.

Dry tooling is aid climbing and should be stopped due to the damage it does. Unfortunately lead climbers nowadays do not have the same ethics as Chouinard and Robbins and seem more interested in self-promotion than climbing ethics.

Steve

In reply to Steve in scotland:


It maybe lots of things but it isn't aid climbing, anymore that conventional Scottish mixed climbing is aid climbing. The standard line will come out soon I expect: "its just yarding about on a pair of bloody great skyhooks". If so we would all be climbing grade VIII wouldn't we?

I don't want to see drytooling on British crags, and I suspect that 95% of other UK climbers agree with me, but I think it is very dangerous for climbers to try and get any other type of climbing "banned" somehow as it sets an unhealthy precedent for all of us, because all climbing damages the rock and the surrounding environment somehow - look at all the pictures of grit bouldering areas and how worn down they are around the boulders. Rather scorn and laughter poured on the participants by their peers seems a much more suitable regulatory method.

In reply to sandyman: There is no place for bolts in the Scottish mountains, but if at the very few possible places in Scotland where you might get an icicle coming down and then clear (non hoared-up) rock underneath (perhaps somewhere like Ben Udlaidh?) I wouldn't object to people dry-tooling to the ice as long as they could do it trad gear.

Its just so not Scotland though is it? One every ten years you might get conditions like that - isn't that Garthwaite route at errrr... the outcrop with Oui Oui on it - with all the rude rock climb names... a bit like what I described. Is the route "Cup of Tea" or something like that? Anyway it probably hasn't been in condition since the FA...

When global warming diverts the Gulf Stream and we have -20 winters we can start discussing this again when Malham becomes the British Vail.

Not protecting Muir or Mcleod, but weren't those routes previously bolted as sports climbs anyway? I've not been to the quarry concerned but most people seem to think its rather awful. I don't think this means they are going to bolt Auchenstarry let alone Poll Dubh.

In reply to TobyA:

I think it is, though. Conditions are no longer the factor - air temperature's almost irrelevant if there's no ice/hoar on the rock.

And you could make a fairly strong case that a lot of Scottish mixed is, in fact, aid climbing of rock except in the most exceptional conditions. It's a continuum anyway. Using tools on ice is quite clearly aid of a sort, justified by the medium/conditions. Turf too - justified if it's frozen. Once you get beyond turf on to rock the variability in condition and the justification of use of tools is much less clear cut (in some cases).
To me, it's winter climbing. And the idea is that the winter conditions present a challenge -and a different climbing medium, rather than an excuse to use tools on something colder, but otherwise not much different to, summer.

In reply to TobyA:
Aren't there a couple of routes on Nevis & on Liathach with a bit of aid &/or mixed to reach ice ? Done several years ago and maybe the aid could be replaced by modern so called dry tooling ? (can't remember names, something on Comb Buttress ?)

In reply to Doug:

"Don't die of ignorance" something like A2 VI,6. I think Nisbet did a newer one there recently as well.

In reply to Li'l Zé: I don't see why dry tooling across a roof to get to VI,6 icicle is less valid than pure rock routes like in the NCs.

Sticky rubber is surely aid as well then?

In reply to TobyA:

Flying Groove is the other. Given that the aid is on large friends, I think freeing it might be a bit tricky to say the least.

On Liathach I think you mean one of the Fowler routes. I think that was freed on one of the international meets a few years ago.

In reply to TobyA:

No point in trying to apply logic to the situation Toby. Folk don't seem to like a balanced viewpoint

In reply to TobyA:

Ultimately, I suppose, yes. A slight difference, as climbers will be shod anyway by and large, and you're just choosing the optimum material. Using tools is a different kind of choice.
Incidentally, chalk is really in the latter category too.
I'm not saying it's inherently wrong because it's aid. Just that the degree of appropriateness varies. And out and out dry tooling (a la F&F) as an end in itself seems to me as daft as setting off up a route on the Etive Slabs armed with sink plungers for each hand.

In reply to Li'l Zé:

Excellent!

What do you call this new kind of climbing and does it have a grading system yet?

You should easily make the next front cover of the MCofS magazine with this!

Steve

In reply to Steve in scotland:

Sanitary tooling. And routes are given WC grades. A sanitary ascent of The Long Reach would be WC12 or so.

An article is in preparation - just need to sort out sponsors and I'm waiting to hear from Homebase and Grahams.

Flushed with success,

z

In reply to TobyA:

I'm not trying to get it banned. Each to their own etc. But I'll keep pointing out that it does more damage to the rock than most other types of climbing. This is obvious already.

Steve

In reply to TobyA:

Someone mentioned Earl Crag above. The dry tooling that has gone on there is not on some grotty groove in the quarry but on one of the few really good easy routes on the main edge. It just looks as if the yobs have been at it.

The standard repost to this is that some people will always go and mess it up for the "responsible" dry-toolers. Bollocks!

Now don't assume that I view winter climbing as requiring full conditions and 10cm of ice cover to be valid, I have done many a mixed route where the "cover" was often nothing more than a dusting of snow or verglass was the only thing preventing rock-boots from being the order of the day. I also feel that the winter ascent of Snickersnack was a brilliant effort. However dry-tooling does appear to be different in that snow or ice are not required so it begs the question: what's the point? Nothing new is being done, save for the amount of damage it is causing a limited resource.

Bob

In reply to Bob:

I agree about Earl Crag, though I suspect it might have had a thin veneer of ice as the scratches are around large footholds which seems a bit strange.
I'm not sure about these D-grade routes. They do seem to be venues or routes ignored by rock-climbers and there must be some specific training benefit to dry tooling but it certainly isn't any kind of breakthrough.

In reply to FedUp:

You 'cant get your head round why people do this utterly pointless genre of climbing', who cares?

As long as the people who do it are able to get their head round it then they (I) dont particularly care whether you understand it or not.

1.I have dry tooled (not much though).
2.I will do so again in the future.
3.I find it enjoyable as a sport and as practise for winter climbing.
4.I have never dry tooled on a route, and take reasonable care not to damage any rock.
5.I honestly dont care whether im dry tooling on a 'future route'. Should we stop building houses because it might be over a future footpath?
6.I refuse to pussy foot round in an attempt to keep everyone happy.
7. Im not hurting anyone, the biggest harm done is the amount of stress your causing yourself.
8.There is LOTS AND LOTS of rock to go round.
9.I dont think ive got to answer to you and dont feel the neccessity to offer any explanation, excuse or reason why i do it.
10.Most importantly; I would be much more likely to be cooperative and understanding to someone who didnt rant and rave about something i enjoy. If you got into a discussion with some dry toolers instead of trying to pursecute them youd get a lot further. I guarantee this. Youre just getting peoples backs up. If you want someone to do something for you, youve got to be nice to them.



When youve climbed every route in the UK and every other ungraded bit of rock is totally featureless then by all means return with your argument and put 'I TOLD YOU SO' at the end of it. Til then, im not bothered.

I might have been bothered if you were more open or less antagonistic.

(you see, youve just got my back up)

Mat

In reply to matnoo:
'If you got into a discussion with some dry toolers instead of trying to pursecute them youd get a lot further.'

Ive since read some (most) of the postings here. You have had a discussion about this, so i take this back.

I do understand the points youre making and do see why youre concerned. But at the end of the day, there arent many dry toolers at all and quite simply- you cant ban it.

Your initial post was a bit provocative, i should have read on, but im tired and going to bed so didnt/dont have time.

Mat

In reply to Dave Garnett:

I also got a copy of the Black Diamond DVD. Pretty impressive from a gymnastics point of view, but it heavily emphasised the mixed and competition sides of ice climbing. The only real ice being climbed was the underside of a glacier, with pre-placed quickdraws. The mixed climbing showed considerable damage to the rock. Overall I thought it was shallow and seemed to be aimed at the wannabe sk8er set of climbing.

I exchanged some fairly lengthy emails with one of the Black Diamond employees about the DVD asking them to also show waterfall or alpine climbing in any future DVDs. Not sure if it did any good though.

In reply to matnoo:



Where exactly?

In reply to TobyA:

1.Off the beaten path in the lakes. Generally speaking, if it doesnt have a path anywhere near it and is covered in shrubs/heather/lichen its game.

2.Dunno, hopefully next time im out with my axes itll be on something more icy.

Mat

In reply to matnoo:
My original posting was provocative I admit. I just wanted to start discussion and I felt the best was was to make someone mad! I mean no malice honest! It's nice to be arrogant on an anonymous forum!
Still f*ckin' hate 'toolers though!

In reply to FedUp:


Muwahahah! *disappears in a puff of smoke*


Mat

In reply to matnoo:
lol

In reply to FedUp:
See Adam Lincoln's link: http://www.scottishclimbs.com/videos.php

Theres a video of someone dry tooling, whats looks to be a climeable line.

In reply to FedUp:
See Adam Lincoln's link: http://www.scottishclimbs.com/videos.php

Theres a video of someone dry tooling, whats looks to be a climeable line.

In reply to matnoo:


Obviously. But not the most compelling justification, surely?

It always amazes me when people wade into ethical debates with this ‘I’ll do what I like, I don’t care what you think and you can’t stop me’ attitude. You might just as well tattoo ‘Knob’ on your forehead and have done with it.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:


Im rationalising what i do with real facts. Im saying dont get pissed off with me (or more to the point the sport) because its not realy a problem.

What do you mean by justification? I dont have to justify it... Its something I enjoy doing that (in my eyes) causes little or no inconvenience to others as long i bear other peoples interests in mind whilst doing it.

Who said we were having an ethical debate? Fedup said he couldnt get his head round why people did it and was a pit pissed about the whole thing, then there was a discussion. What I put were my opinions and a few facts supporting my case. My case being:

Be nice if you want something from someone.
Dry toolers (me for one) take care not to damage rock and generally dont.
Dry toolers dont care about people ranting. We would care more if people were civil.

Tell me, as some people have chronic asthma, do you ride a bike/use publice transport instead of drive a car?

If you dont, isnt that a bit, 'Ill do what i like and you cant stop me' attitude?

Ill decline the tatoo thanks.

Mat.

(oo I like a good argument!)

In reply to matnoo: "Its something I enjoy doing that (in my eyes) causes little or no inconvenience to others as long i bear other peoples interests in mind whilst doing it."

well, by dry tooling you are not bearing other peoples interests in mind, are you?

however, as long as you have your fun mr noo then who cares eh? just dont let me catch you climbing a black winter route or placing bolts on a Scottish mountain cliff

In reply to EB:


Yes i am. I could dry tool on named routes (id much rather do that, i dont have to scrape ming and shit away every 10 seconds), but i dont.

I dry tool out of the way. Much longer walk ins, shitty overgrown routes, crappy rock, I have to hunt for routes too. The only reason I do this is because im considoring other people.


Mat

In reply to simon.a: I have seen this video and the article in the Scottish Mountaineer... Why axes but not crampons???? It's cheating!!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
s ‘I’ll do what I like, I don’t care what you think and you can’t stop me’ attitude. You might just as well tattoo ‘Knob’ on your forehead and have done with it.

I think it's more normal just to have 'Red Bull' emblazoned on the front of your helmet (the one on your head by the way).

"We all have opinions on this site. Mine is that drytooling is wrong, so live with it."

Get a grip. If someone speaks as much shite as you do, people are quite entitled to ask for an explanation. "dry-tooling is wrong" ?! That's it ? That's the scope of your argument ? Pathetic. I suppose bouldering is "wrong" as well, given the untold erosion damage repeated groundfalls cause ? And top-end Scottish mixed climbing, that'll be "wrong" as well, eh Grandad - all that in-situ gear littering every popular crag ? And what about high altitude mountaineering for that matter, you checked out Everest Base Camp lately ? Think about it.

In reply to you dry tool haters:

EZIKIEL 25,17 (from the dry toolers handbook)

The route of the righteous 'tooler is beset on all traverses by the eniquitys of the guidebooks and the tyrany of whinging climbers. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good steel shepherds the hardwear through the valley of darkness, for he is truly my 'toolers keeper and the finder of lost placements. I will strike down upon thee with great axes and furious crampons, those who attempt to nag and bother my brothers, and you will know my name is grivel when i lay my vengeance upon thee.


Mat

In reply to matnoo: You missed the gunshots at the end (perhaps it could be changed to axes smashing on rock).

In reply to matnoo: your a big man, but your out of shape and i do this for a living.