UKC

Logbook red point/head point discrepancy

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 deacondeacon 24 Oct 2015
Is it possible that we could get the logbooks to show 'hp' instead of 'rp' when we've headpointed a trad route?
Sorry if the question has already been asked before.
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OP deacondeacon 26 Oct 2015
In reply to deacondeacon:

Bump
1
 remus Global Crag Moderator 26 Oct 2015
In reply to deacondeacon:

Is it really that different? It's just different names depending on whether its trad or sport, the underlying idea ('after practice') is the same.
1
 Nick Russell 26 Oct 2015
In reply to remus:

> Is it really that different?

I'd argue that it is quite different, but not in a way that would be resolved by labelling all trad routes after practice as 'head point' and all sport routes after practice as 'redpoint'. To me, the distinction is between practicing the moves because you're going to hurt yourself if you fall of (head point) or practicing the moves because they're really hard (redpoint).

For example, I led Low Profile (E5 6b) at Avon after practice (all on lead, but still practice). It's safe enough that I wasn't worried about injury if I fell, but I needed to figure out the sequence on the headwall to be able to do it. I suppose you could argue that the route in question is pegged-up pseudo-sport, but I think I'd feel the same way about a safe route protected by bomber wires. Actually, case in point would be Mirage (E3 6a), which I also led 'clean after practice'

Of course, I agree completely with you when you say
> the underlying idea ('after practice') is the same.
This is more a response to the OP suggesting that drawing the head point/redpoint line sharply and the trad/sport boundary (itself quite a blurry line) wouldn't necessarily solve the problem. In fact, I think the current solution ('clean after practice') neatly avoids the issue!

I don't normally get into arguments about definitions... I suppose I can justify it here because it's not an argument yet!
1
OP deacondeacon 27 Oct 2015
In reply to remus:
> Is it really that different? It's just different names depending on whether its trad or sport, the underlying idea ('after practice') is the same.

You're right, it's not that different at all, except that they have established names. Headpoint for trad, redpoint for sport, and a slight change to the logbook could smooth this out.
Post edited at 04:35
OP deacondeacon 27 Oct 2015
In reply to deacondeacon:

Also am I missing something, getting dislikes for this, as well as Nick getting a dislike? If you're going to dislike a post at least make a comment on why. I genuinely have no idea what there is to take umbrage to.
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 HeMa 27 Oct 2015
In reply to deacondeacon:

> Also am I missing something, getting dislikes for this, as well as Nick getting a dislike?

I believe someone disagrees with you... but not enough to warrant a reply.

As for the headpoint/redpoint thing. Well, I'm on the same line as Nick, to me headpoint is only used for routes that you got absolutely wired (on toprope)... So generally bold & dangerous.

Where as a redpoint is climbing something hard but safe.

And "Lead, clean after practice", is in my opinion good enough... after all, that is the definition of redpoint... which has a longer history as a climbing term than headpoint.

If you'd want these options to show, then where is pinkpoint?
 Andy Farnell 27 Oct 2015
In reply to HeMa:

> As for the headpoint/redpoint thing. Well, I'm on the same line as Nick, to me headpoint is only used for routes that you got absolutely wired (on toprope)... So generally bold & dangerous.

> Where as a redpoint is climbing something hard but safe.

> And "Lead, clean after practice", is in my opinion good enough... after all, that is the definition of redpoint... which has a longer history as a climbing term than headpoint.

You can always add 'placed gear on lead' or 'on prepared gear' in the comment box.

> If you'd want these options to show, then where is pinkpoint?

Or Preston point But seriously, the definition of pinkpoint has fallen by the way. Back in't day, when I were't youth, pinkpoint meant 'a redpoint with the gear in place', which was inferior to a redpoint 'placing all the gear on the successful lead'. But now redpoint covers all the bases.

Andy F

Andy F

 HeMa 27 Oct 2015
In reply to andy farnell:

> Or Preston point But seriously, the definition of pinkpoint has fallen by the way. Back in't day, when I were't youth, pinkpoint meant 'a redpoint with the gear in place', which was inferior to a redpoint 'placing all the gear on the successful lead'.

Yeah, I do know the history of pinkpoint... and infact I do know it is used from time to time.



 Nick Russell 27 Oct 2015
In reply to deacondeacon:

> Also am I missing something, getting dislikes for this, as well as Nick getting a dislike?

I think this is why UKC were reluctant to implement the like/dislike system in the first place : people use it to excuse themselves from expressing a real point in writing. At least somebody has a sense of humour about it, immediately 'disliking' your post expressing an objection to unqualified dislikes!

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 Andy Farnell 27 Oct 2015
In reply to HeMa:

> Yeah, I do know the history of pinkpoint... and infact I do know it is used from time to time.

It might be used occasionally in your neck of the woods, but I've not heard it used since the early/mid 90's.

Andy F
 HeMa 27 Oct 2015
In reply to andy farnell:

Not often,

I seem to recall it was used on rather sketchy FAs, where some of the gear was preplaced, because it was so peculiar or next to impossible place whilst on lead.
 Andy Farnell 27 Oct 2015
In reply to HeMa: Sounds similar to a headpoint with gear in place. I'm talking about sport routes. Originally a redpoint was going from bottom to belay, placing the clips as you went. A pinkpoint was doing it with clips in place and a Preston point was having the first 2 bolts clipped. Nowadays redpoint covers all the bases, with a few comments e.g. 'I did it with the first preclipped as I didn't want to break my ankle on that gnarly start'.

Andy F

 HeMa 27 Oct 2015
In reply to andy farnell:

> Sounds similar to a headpoint with gear in place. I'm talking about sport routes. Originally a redpoint was going from bottom to belay, placing the clips as you went. A pinkpoint was doing it with clips in place and a Preston point was having the first 2 bolts clipped. Nowadays redpoint covers all the bases, with a few comments e.g. 'I did it with the first preclipped as I didn't want to break my ankle on that gnarly start'.

> Andy F

You got it wrong... pinkpoint covers both cases... preplaced gear & draws on the route. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_climbing_terms#P)

Naturally not used anymore for sport, but occasionally for trad. After all, the general consensus is that when bolt clipping on easier routes (~F7s or easier) you place the draws as you climb (and OS the thing). But on harder routes, you'll prolly have fixed draws... or you dogged them there.
 Andy Farnell 27 Oct 2015
In reply to HeMa:

I'd say those definitions are in line with what I was describing. Pink = clips in, Red = placing clips on the lead.

Andy F
 HeMa 27 Oct 2015
In reply to andy farnell:

They are... but as said, pink also refers to trad with preplaced gear.
 Andy Farnell 27 Oct 2015
In reply to HeMa: Fair enough. Only used the terms in a sport context, but using them for trad seems fair, if a little antiquated.

Andy F


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