UKC

Get some old climbers together in a pub, and it isn't long before the reminiscing starts.

Then, sooner or later, the tales of epics and survival will be remembered and relished with very little adherence to actual facts, or acknowledgement of how shite those epics were at the time.

However, I'm a firm believer that experiencing and surviving the odd epic, is a very important part of developing and becoming a better climber.

Whether those epics were self inflicted - poor decisions, bad judgement, inexperience, being a dickhead - or bad luck/circumstances - weather, stonefall, avalanche, injury etc, I can't recall ever meeting anyone who hasn't had one.

Obviously what constitutes an epic can be highly subjective and come in varying degrees, from twitching sphincter moments to full on skin of the teeth survival nightmares, but they all teach us some extremely valuable lessons about both climbing and ourselves.

Being able to get ourselves out of a potentially life threatening situation is in my opinion critically important, as too is recognising, that sometimes it's good fortune, not necessarily our skills, which enable us to live and tell the tales.

So in my opinion, epics are a crucial part of the learning curve, but I was wondering whether this opinion is shared by others?

In reply to Goucho:

They are the most reliable way to both build and measure moral fibre.

There's a thread over in "E&A" asking about how to evaluate expedition partners. Clearly the answer is to have a couple of epics with them

In reply to Goucho:


Perhaps they're not part of the learning curve, but actually the essence of climbing?

In reply to davidbeynon:


An old Scottish climbing friend of mine used to say "If you get caught up in a bar fight, see which of your mates is still standing next to you six punches in, and which one has run out of the door. The former is the one you want to be stuck in a shit storm on an alpine north face with, not the latter".

In reply to Goucho:

Most of my "epics" (which, to be fair, weren't epics on the grand scale of things) all happened in my younger days, I'm now a responsible adult, father and husband so am less inclined to put myself in a situation which could escalate.

In reply to Goucho:

Do people still have real epics - or just get the phone out and call for help?


Chris

In reply to galpinos:


I don't think anyone deliberately puts themselves into a situation where an epic is likely - although I suppose certain routes have a higher risk and objective danger.

Unfortunately, epics can often come from left field, and aso tend to show no respect for comfort zones either

In reply to Chris Craggs:

The most annoying thing is people assuming I am having an epic when I think I'm just having a nice evening out on the hill. Getting back after 8pm or even after midnight does not an epic make!

In reply to Chris Craggs:




That's an interesting point Chris?

Maybe instead of battling things out, people just post an SOS on Facebook

In reply to Goucho:

But what if facebook is down or the hill doesn't have wifi? If that doesn't constitute an epic then what does?

In reply to davidbeynon:


I remember an incident in the 70's when a couple of guys were enjoying a nice midnight ascent of Nea in the Pass by moonlight and head torch, only to have their ascent cut short by the arrival of a full contingency of the MRT complete with police car and flashing blue lights.

Someone had seen the headtorches and presumed they were benighted and called 999.

God knows what would happen nowadays.

In reply to Chris Craggs:


Do people still have real bar fights?

In reply to Goucho:

Nowadays there would be a national media outcry for a curfew on hill walking and the installation of warning signs and handrails on all mountain paths

In reply to felt:


Not as many since they closed the Sally in Ambleside

In reply to Goucho:


A friend and I were having an epic on Baggy Point at extreme high tide, with ropes spread all over the place. Unknown to us a tourist on the cliff top called out the coastguard, who arrived below the cliff in boats. Incredibly embarrassing and unfortunate [we didn't need the coastguard].

In reply to Goucho:


Someone called out the rescue after seeing our headlights going up hill at about 6 in the morning (January) in Torridon, that was in 1979.

In reply to Chris Craggs:


You put a 'wink' in there - but I think it's a good question.

To the OP: definitely they're important. It's only when the shit's hitting the fan that you truly find out what kind of person you (and your partners) are. When things go okay, it's easy!

In reply to Doug:


One night sleeping under the stars at Roaches upper tier, it was decided a moonlit ascent of Sloth was in order.

No head torches to ad a frisson of extra excitement.

Runner round cheeseblock, and then just as I swung up onto the first move across the roof the whole place lit up like a football stadium.

I heard my mates shout up to me "F*ck it's Dougie".

When I looked down sure enough, there was the delightful Mr Moller with the biggest bloody torch I'd ever seen in one hand, and a shovel in the other.

I don't know what the speed record across the roof is, but I'm certainly in with a shout.

In reply to Goucho:

I spent my entire climbing life desperately trying to avoid epics but somehow the epics are just about the only bits I really remember. All the easy sunny days are just a very pleasant rosy blur.

In reply to Chris Craggs:


That is a good point. The last time I could have ended up in an epic I called the PGHM, they whisked the injured party away in the chopper and the worst that happened to the rest of us was a ski descent in the dark and a short wait for a friend to pick us up as we has missed the last bus.

I asked the PGHM guy about it and his opinion was, "Better getting one injured skier in the daylight than trying to get one injured skier and 4 hypothermic and tired skiers in the dark." so I felt a bit justified in calling them. It was the first time I'd ever called for a rescue (for me).

In reply to Goucho:



By that I mean I do a lot more bouldering and cragging and a lot less alpine, scottish winter and ski touring so the chance of an epic is a lot smaller. Having an epic at Burbage North would be quite an achievement......

In reply to galpinos:

I know someone who managed to get benighted on Birchens once, but I'm not giving any details unless there's beer involved

In reply to Goucho:

I seem to have less epics as I've gotten older that's for sure, athough I'm not sure whether that's me getting smarter or more timid. Probably the latter.

Anyway, is it only in climbing that we talk about "epics"? I remember my first climbing partner telling me all about "epics" and soon cottoning on that one didn't become a real climber until you'd had the odd epic.

Another thing, can sports climbers even have epics? To answer my own question, I suppose in the right environment e.g 16 pitches up in the alps, abseil retreat only, in a thunderstorm, yes.

In reply to galpinos:

That's of course the correct point of view.

What bothers me, though, is people who might, for example, choose to go 'Fast and Light' (tm) - but, whatever else they choose to leave behind, always take a phone along so that they can get whisked off their terrifying-difficult objective should it, for example, start to rain a bit. Or they decide that they don't like the taste of the sandwiches they've brought along. Or similar ...

It seems increasingly to be a mindset. And a slightly Walter-Mittyish one.

In reply to Rob Parsons:




Does that actually happen though?

We were reasonably well prepared and I'm sure could have extracted ourselves without the aid of the PGHM eventually but i still called them. Does that make my decision more justified than the one you quoted?

In reply to galpinos:

Having an epic at Burbage North would be quite an achievement......

Not on Dover Ellis Chimney when it starts raining

In reply to Rob Parsons:

In my experience (and group of friends), the people going fast and light are usually the ones who don't mind suffering a bit. Your phone is still the most important bit of safety kit you have though!

In reply to Goucho:

Whether they're essential or not they are for most of us inevitable especially given the very loose subjective definition of an epic. My early 'epics' are with hindsight laughably tame and my nearest misses (that I'm aware of) were never very epic.

I'm not sure what I've learned from mine, probably just that so long as nobody dies it'll eventually be looked back upon with some fondness no matter how exasperating, grim or gripping it may be at the time.

jk

In reply to Goucho:

Type 3 fun?

http://www.ducttapethenbeer.com/three-types-of-fun/

Listen to the Dirtbag Diaries series of podcasts - some good stuff there.

N

In reply to Goucho:


I think by definition an epic can't be enjoyed at the time! But as you suggest, one positive thing about them is they tend to make good stories afterwards.

In reply to Goucho:



Agreed. But in my experience a death certainly takes the edge off things.

D.

In reply to Nick Alcock:

But in my experience a death certainly takes the edge off things.

Oh come on! It's a risk sport. If nobody got hurt it wouldn't be any fun now would it?

In reply to Goucho:

Totally need epics! It defines us.
Sole falling off koflach boots sort of stuff though, not mild stuff like following through once at stanage p(l)op

In reply to wilkie14c:

I've always thought an epic really needs to be include either a benightment or near death experience.