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We've just had a new garage and office built by a German building company, and the result has been everything you don't get from a British builder.
The job came in on budget, on time and to a faultless and very impressive standard of finish.
There were no problems, the team were charming, highly skilled and wonderfully efficient.
And, despite all materials and a 6 man team coming from Germany, the job was completed for £10k less and 5 weeks quicker than we were quoted by a number of British builders.
So is it that German builders are better trained and qualified, or is it simply that they have more pride and professionalism than British builders?
The job came in on budget, on time and to a faultless and very impressive standard of finish.
There were no problems, the team were charming, highly skilled and wonderfully efficient.
And, despite all materials and a 6 man team coming from Germany, the job was completed for £10k less and 5 weeks quicker than we were quoted by a number of British builders.
So is it that German builders are better trained and qualified, or is it simply that they have more pride and professionalism than British builders?
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In reply to Goucho:
The latter, and it isn't restricted to builders.
Flaming ahead
> So is it that German builders are better trained and qualified, or is it simply that they have more pride and professionalism than British builders?
The latter, and it isn't restricted to builders.
Flaming ahead
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In reply to Goucho:
Depends what the job is really. Run of the mill builders are pants on the whole in the UK, but I use local stone mason, sparky and plasterers who are exceptional. They do a lot of work on listed buildings so I guess it goes with the territory.
Depends what the job is really. Run of the mill builders are pants on the whole in the UK, but I use local stone mason, sparky and plasterers who are exceptional. They do a lot of work on listed buildings so I guess it goes with the territory.
In reply to Goucho:
In my experience, once you've 'tapped into a seam' of trades people who know one another who are good at their jobs, the people you get end providing a good service, even if the first person you go to isn't free at the time. I guess it helps to live in a small city, where people are more interconnected and networking is easier.
In my experience, once you've 'tapped into a seam' of trades people who know one another who are good at their jobs, the people you get end providing a good service, even if the first person you go to isn't free at the time. I guess it helps to live in a small city, where people are more interconnected and networking is easier.
Post edited at 13:04
In reply to Goucho:
There is a house near me that has recently been renovated and it looks great.
In the front garden there is a sign which proudly announces "This house has been upgraded and renovated by German Builders!"
I think you are right. Many foreign workers who have come to the uk are good. They have a great work ethos. The girl who lives in the flat opposite mine recently had it totally redecorated by two Polish guys. They hardly spoke a word of English but were on time, quick, polite and efficient. They have done a great job. She originally tried to get quotes from English painters and decorators. Several failed to turn up at all having made an appointment to come out and quote, and of those that did, all were much more expensive than the Poles.
A large percentage of the staff in local pubs and restaurants are Polish. They tend to be friendly and efficient, and are popular with the locals.
There is a house near me that has recently been renovated and it looks great.
In the front garden there is a sign which proudly announces "This house has been upgraded and renovated by German Builders!"
I think you are right. Many foreign workers who have come to the uk are good. They have a great work ethos. The girl who lives in the flat opposite mine recently had it totally redecorated by two Polish guys. They hardly spoke a word of English but were on time, quick, polite and efficient. They have done a great job. She originally tried to get quotes from English painters and decorators. Several failed to turn up at all having made an appointment to come out and quote, and of those that did, all were much more expensive than the Poles.
A large percentage of the staff in local pubs and restaurants are Polish. They tend to be friendly and efficient, and are popular with the locals.
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In reply to Goucho:
There are a lot of poor tradesmen in this country. My Dad who's a retired old school plumber thinks it's because the level of intelligence that feeds into the trades is lower than what it was. Can't speak for Germany but if you look at the average set of builders on the sites that I have worked on you can understand where he's coming from. That's not to say everyone is stupid but there are a fair few neanderthals out there.
There are a lot of poor tradesmen in this country. My Dad who's a retired old school plumber thinks it's because the level of intelligence that feeds into the trades is lower than what it was. Can't speak for Germany but if you look at the average set of builders on the sites that I have worked on you can understand where he's coming from. That's not to say everyone is stupid but there are a fair few neanderthals out there.
Post edited at 13:26
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In reply to Goucho:
IMHO it is both a market issue (British customers on average are less demanding and have a lower standard for housing) and a cultural/social bias (manual jobs tend -unjustifiably- to be ignored by smart and motivated people more than in the past, when education was not as accessible and most were forced to invest their cleverness in manual craftmanship)
IMHO it is both a market issue (British customers on average are less demanding and have a lower standard for housing) and a cultural/social bias (manual jobs tend -unjustifiably- to be ignored by smart and motivated people more than in the past, when education was not as accessible and most were forced to invest their cleverness in manual craftmanship)
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In reply to Goucho:
lots of British builders are one man bands often juggling multiple jobs at the same time with a couple of labourers who probably have no quals, not ideal for anyone. Partly indicative of the low value we place on skilled manual labour in this country, just ask the steel workers.
lots of British builders are one man bands often juggling multiple jobs at the same time with a couple of labourers who probably have no quals, not ideal for anyone. Partly indicative of the low value we place on skilled manual labour in this country, just ask the steel workers.
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As expat myself (not a builder however) I can say that you have to go extra mile to compete with locals.
To be successful you have to make it cheaper or make it better. Or both.
And we, immigrants, don't have a lot of backup like benefits, state, social network. Financially we are much more vulnerable than locals, so doing job properly is the only way to make sure that we are more attractive workforce.
Post edited at 16:26
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In reply to jethro kiernan:
So in other words, taking on jobs they can't handle, using people who are unqualified, and bodging everything - that's just being crap at your job.
Partly indicative of the low value we place on skilled manual labour in this country, just ask the steel workers.
I'd hardly decribe the rates builders charge low value - exactly the opposite in fact - especially considering the quality of work usually delivered.
> lots of British builders are one man bands often juggling multiple jobs at the same time with a couple of labourers who probably have no quals, not ideal for anyone.
So in other words, taking on jobs they can't handle, using people who are unqualified, and bodging everything - that's just being crap at your job.
Partly indicative of the low value we place on skilled manual labour in this country, just ask the steel workers.
I'd hardly decribe the rates builders charge low value - exactly the opposite in fact - especially considering the quality of work usually delivered.
Post edited at 16:24
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In reply to odari:
I wonder which came first, low expectations, or crap builders?
> IMHO it is both a market issue (British customers on average are less demanding and have a lower standard for housing) and a cultural/social bias (manual jobs tend -unjustifiably- to be ignored by smart and motivated people more than in the past, when education was not as accessible and most were forced to invest their cleverness in manual craftmanship)
I wonder which came first, low expectations, or crap builders?
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In reply to Goucho:
I think he means low value in the sense of skilled manual labour being valued less than white collar work, being perceived as less worthwhile as a career.
My English carpenter is a guild of Master Craftsmen member, and he puts a lot of thought and background knowledge into his work, from having studied in Finland and taught it there too.
> I'd hardly decribe the rates builders charge low value - exactly the opposite in fact - especially considering the quality of work usually delivered.
I think he means low value in the sense of skilled manual labour being valued less than white collar work, being perceived as less worthwhile as a career.
My English carpenter is a guild of Master Craftsmen member, and he puts a lot of thought and background knowledge into his work, from having studied in Finland and taught it there too.
Post edited at 16:34
In reply to jimjimjim:
I guess it's partly a result of there being less openings for people to do low skilled manual labour work too, as well as there being less apprenticeship openings for people who are otherwise intelligent, in not being naturally suited to white collar work. The people who'd be suited to it can't find the pathways into that kind of work as easily, and the people who wouldn't find work anywhere else in the job market as it now is can end up going into practical work, which I guess reinforces the perception that it's something which only people who aren't very intelligent do, too.
It seems like practical work needs to become more aspirational, so it's perceived as being just as worth while as having a degree and all that, more apprenticeships out there would improve the skill level across the board, I guess. Having done dry stone walling, and helped install timber supports for roofing, and worked out the angles, it is using your brain to do practical things, but just in a different way. Practical people need to not feel less intelligent and perhaps a bit down on themselves about their jobs.
> There are a lot of poor tradesmen in this country. My Dad who's a retired old school plumber thinks it's because the level of intelligence that feeds into the trades is lower than what it was. Can't speak for Germany but if you look at the average set of builders on the sites that I have worked on you can understand where he's coming from. That's not to say everyone is stupid but there are a fair few neanderthals out there.
I guess it's partly a result of there being less openings for people to do low skilled manual labour work too, as well as there being less apprenticeship openings for people who are otherwise intelligent, in not being naturally suited to white collar work. The people who'd be suited to it can't find the pathways into that kind of work as easily, and the people who wouldn't find work anywhere else in the job market as it now is can end up going into practical work, which I guess reinforces the perception that it's something which only people who aren't very intelligent do, too.
It seems like practical work needs to become more aspirational, so it's perceived as being just as worth while as having a degree and all that, more apprenticeships out there would improve the skill level across the board, I guess. Having done dry stone walling, and helped install timber supports for roofing, and worked out the angles, it is using your brain to do practical things, but just in a different way. Practical people need to not feel less intelligent and perhaps a bit down on themselves about their jobs.
Post edited at 16:46
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In reply to Timmd:
Nope, Roger. But there's a guy called Steve who did half a mile of dry stone walling for Stoke Hall over the Summer
Nope, Roger. But there's a guy called Steve who did half a mile of dry stone walling for Stoke Hall over the Summer
> Is your local stone mason called Steve by any chance?
In reply to Goucho:
A bit part of the difference in skill level, is the fact that building isn't really regulated in the UK. Any D.I.Y.er can buy a van and start up as a builder. The majority of customers out there can't tell the difference between work that's done properly and work that's been bodged! They just see shiny and new, and are over the moon with it.
A bit part of the difference in skill level, is the fact that building isn't really regulated in the UK. Any D.I.Y.er can buy a van and start up as a builder. The majority of customers out there can't tell the difference between work that's done properly and work that's been bodged! They just see shiny and new, and are over the moon with it.
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In reply to Goucho:
I would love to disagree with you but in all honesty I can't,I'm a builder and both me and my partner are qualified upto h.n.c.when we came into the trade (bricklayers) it was hard going and you had to really work your arse off and be flawless at everything,college was very technical and foreman would pull the slightest mistake which would have to be taken down and redone correctly.things have mo vex on now and everything is money based.the quicker the better,the trades have been de-skilled to make it easier as there is a shortage of tradesmen (apparently).we have an apprentice who is doing his n.v.q level 3 in brickwork,I looked at his syllabus and was surprised there's no chimney/fireplace/bullseye in it and he told me the other day his tutor was skipping the arches as they didn't have time ?.colleges will qualify anyone who's on the course because they get a lump sum for everyone who qualifies.another reason the trades have gone down hill is the fact that schools never promote them to students,everyone with half a brain is told they must go to university so all that's left for the trades is underachievers.trades have been devalued so it's obvious the standards are gonna drop.
I would love to disagree with you but in all honesty I can't,I'm a builder and both me and my partner are qualified upto h.n.c.when we came into the trade (bricklayers) it was hard going and you had to really work your arse off and be flawless at everything,college was very technical and foreman would pull the slightest mistake which would have to be taken down and redone correctly.things have mo vex on now and everything is money based.the quicker the better,the trades have been de-skilled to make it easier as there is a shortage of tradesmen (apparently).we have an apprentice who is doing his n.v.q level 3 in brickwork,I looked at his syllabus and was surprised there's no chimney/fireplace/bullseye in it and he told me the other day his tutor was skipping the arches as they didn't have time ?.colleges will qualify anyone who's on the course because they get a lump sum for everyone who qualifies.another reason the trades have gone down hill is the fact that schools never promote them to students,everyone with half a brain is told they must go to university so all that's left for the trades is underachievers.trades have been devalued so it's obvious the standards are gonna drop.
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In reply to ScottTalbot:
And that seems so obvious and yet so often gets ignored. People look in yellow pages, phone 6 names at random, only get replies from 2 and then go with the cheapest and the one who oddly can also start immediately....and that is someone who they will be asking to work on the single most valuable asset they have?
Dad was a builder, brother took over the firm and in about 50 years of trading they never advertised by more than a sign on the van and an ad in the village newsletter. If you want him, my brother normally has around 12 months of work ahead of him. He must just be lucky I suppose.
Skills are in shorter supply for sure right now. I have always worked in the larger end of the construction sector (schools, hospitals, hotels, office etc etc), and getting the right people with the right skills for that work can be just as tricky as in the domestic market.
Nationality is not the issue. Checking out who you are trusting, making it clear what you are expecting and be prepared to pay reasonably for what you want are more important in my experience.
> A bit part of the difference in skill level, is the fact that building isn't really regulated in the UK. Any D.I.Y.er can buy a van and start up as a builder.
And that seems so obvious and yet so often gets ignored. People look in yellow pages, phone 6 names at random, only get replies from 2 and then go with the cheapest and the one who oddly can also start immediately....and that is someone who they will be asking to work on the single most valuable asset they have?
Dad was a builder, brother took over the firm and in about 50 years of trading they never advertised by more than a sign on the van and an ad in the village newsletter. If you want him, my brother normally has around 12 months of work ahead of him. He must just be lucky I suppose.
Skills are in shorter supply for sure right now. I have always worked in the larger end of the construction sector (schools, hospitals, hotels, office etc etc), and getting the right people with the right skills for that work can be just as tricky as in the domestic market.
Nationality is not the issue. Checking out who you are trusting, making it clear what you are expecting and be prepared to pay reasonably for what you want are more important in my experience.
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In reply to Wsdconst:
Thanks for the 'trade' insight.
Personally I'm always in awe of real craftsmanship, and have nothing but respect for those skilled tradesman - far more impressive (and important) IMHO than the herds of pencil pushing bean counters in offices.
Unfortunately, they seem to be as rare as a banker who can get 2+2 to make 4.
Thanks for the 'trade' insight.
Personally I'm always in awe of real craftsmanship, and have nothing but respect for those skilled tradesman - far more impressive (and important) IMHO than the herds of pencil pushing bean counters in offices.
Unfortunately, they seem to be as rare as a banker who can get 2+2 to make 4.
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In reply to Goucho:
Another thing is when your working abroad you don't really have anything else to do but work.i did a stint in Denmark and worked everyday as many hours as I could.i had no social life/family or anything else to get in the way.i was there to work and earn money so that was my mindset.i think this is the attitude of the foreign workers that come to Britain,as well as that fact they've actually got the drive to up and leave their homeland and try to make it somewhere else.
Another thing is when your working abroad you don't really have anything else to do but work.i did a stint in Denmark and worked everyday as many hours as I could.i had no social life/family or anything else to get in the way.i was there to work and earn money so that was my mindset.i think this is the attitude of the foreign workers that come to Britain,as well as that fact they've actually got the drive to up and leave their homeland and try to make it somewhere else.
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In reply to Wainers44:
Quite. I dare say you're not likely to find a jack-the-lad jobbing builder from Germany whose going to come over and make you a shonky over-budget garage. There was, I imagine, a large degree of selection beyond nationality in the OPs choice...
> Nationality is not the issue. Checking out who you are trusting, making it clear what you are expecting and be prepared to pay reasonably for what you want are more important in my experience.
Quite. I dare say you're not likely to find a jack-the-lad jobbing builder from Germany whose going to come over and make you a shonky over-budget garage. There was, I imagine, a large degree of selection beyond nationality in the OPs choice...
Post edited at 23:16
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In reply to Wsdconst:
>the trades have been de-skilled to make it easier as there is a shortage of tradesmen (apparently).we have an apprentice who is doing his n.v.q level 3 in brickwork,I looked at his syllabus and was surprised there's no chimney/fireplace/bullseye in it and he told me the other day his tutor was skipping the arches as they didn't have time ?.colleges will qualify anyone who's on the course because they get a lump sum for everyone who qualifies.
Same in my game. I have put 2 lads through 4 year apprenticeships, both up to Betec diploma level.
The quality of work they made in the machine and bench fitting shop was both simple and crap but they passed with flying colour's. I pulled their tutor about it and was told the surface finish was the best possible on the machine's.
The tolerances were up to 1/2mm???
When I went to tech collage 20 some years ago I would have failed for that quality work and out tolerances were in the 10thou range.
Recently I found my dad's old training notes from the 60s, he was making 3 and 4 jaw chucks and lathe beds to a tolerance of a couple of thou that made my training look crap.
>the trades have been de-skilled to make it easier as there is a shortage of tradesmen (apparently).we have an apprentice who is doing his n.v.q level 3 in brickwork,I looked at his syllabus and was surprised there's no chimney/fireplace/bullseye in it and he told me the other day his tutor was skipping the arches as they didn't have time ?.colleges will qualify anyone who's on the course because they get a lump sum for everyone who qualifies.
Same in my game. I have put 2 lads through 4 year apprenticeships, both up to Betec diploma level.
The quality of work they made in the machine and bench fitting shop was both simple and crap but they passed with flying colour's. I pulled their tutor about it and was told the surface finish was the best possible on the machine's.
The tolerances were up to 1/2mm???
When I went to tech collage 20 some years ago I would have failed for that quality work and out tolerances were in the 10thou range.
Recently I found my dad's old training notes from the 60s, he was making 3 and 4 jaw chucks and lathe beds to a tolerance of a couple of thou that made my training look crap.
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In reply to Goucho:
So your very own Auf Wiedersehen, Pet , in reverse?
So your very own Auf Wiedersehen, Pet , in reverse?
In reply to Goucho:
1970 I worked in Bavaria for 2 years (apprentice), at a time when much of British Labour was at its lowest ebb with unions ruling and much idleness in industry.
I couldn't believe how hard German builders and tradesmen worked, a different league altogether from the UK manual worker. My boss would just supply them with crates of beer each day and jobs were done in record time.
It was quite an eye opener to a young British lad. I can't comment on the present time, but back then they put the Brits to shame, but had the motivation to rebuild their country post war?
1970 I worked in Bavaria for 2 years (apprentice), at a time when much of British Labour was at its lowest ebb with unions ruling and much idleness in industry.
I couldn't believe how hard German builders and tradesmen worked, a different league altogether from the UK manual worker. My boss would just supply them with crates of beer each day and jobs were done in record time.
It was quite an eye opener to a young British lad. I can't comment on the present time, but back then they put the Brits to shame, but had the motivation to rebuild their country post war?
In reply to wintertree:
We invited quotes and scheduling in from 6 building companies based on very detailed specs from the architect on construction and materials.
2 of the companies couldn't even be arsed to turn up to discuss the job when they said they would - this was a 6 figure budget job by the way.
Of the 4 that did, one of them never got round to sending a quote, and the other 3 only supplied 'ballpark' quotes and wouldn't commit to any timescales.
Our architect then mentioned a German company one of his clients had used, so we got in touch with them.
Within a week, they had sent someone over with a comprehensive resume including references and details of other work they had done for us to check out. 3 days later we received an extremely detailed quote - a copy of which was also sent to the architect - including a detailed time schedule, number (and names) of who would be working on it along with their resumes.
As I mentioned in my OP, they were highly impressive and did a fabulous job.
In all my years of using British builders on a variety of building projects, none of them have come close to the German company we have just used.
> Quite. I dare say you're not likely to find a jack-the-lad jobbing builder from Germany whose going to come over and make you a shonky over-budget garage. There was, I imagine, a large degree of selection beyond nationality in the OPs choice...
We invited quotes and scheduling in from 6 building companies based on very detailed specs from the architect on construction and materials.
2 of the companies couldn't even be arsed to turn up to discuss the job when they said they would - this was a 6 figure budget job by the way.
Of the 4 that did, one of them never got round to sending a quote, and the other 3 only supplied 'ballpark' quotes and wouldn't commit to any timescales.
Our architect then mentioned a German company one of his clients had used, so we got in touch with them.
Within a week, they had sent someone over with a comprehensive resume including references and details of other work they had done for us to check out. 3 days later we received an extremely detailed quote - a copy of which was also sent to the architect - including a detailed time schedule, number (and names) of who would be working on it along with their resumes.
As I mentioned in my OP, they were highly impressive and did a fabulous job.
In all my years of using British builders on a variety of building projects, none of them have come close to the German company we have just used.
In reply to Goucho:
Having a house in the southwest completely rebuilt by bunch of British builders right now. They have been excellent so far, albeit heavy on the KitKats! They don't have a website and they don't advertise - apparently they choose you, you don't choose them!
Having a house in the southwest completely rebuilt by bunch of British builders right now. They have been excellent so far, albeit heavy on the KitKats! They don't have a website and they don't advertise - apparently they choose you, you don't choose them!
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In reply to Goucho:
So, is there any standard or regulating body you can look for to insure you're getting a builder of a certain standard in the UK, or is it just a case of trying to get a recommendation?
So, is there any standard or regulating body you can look for to insure you're getting a builder of a certain standard in the UK, or is it just a case of trying to get a recommendation?
In reply to Goucho:
Perhaps "If only British education, training, management and attitudes towards skilled tradesmen were the same as in Germany" might have been a better thread title. As Dax H pointed out, if qualifications have been eroded to the point any numpty can pass then what do we expect? Groucho's issue seems more to be with the lack of professionalism in the management of the companies, something that is endemic in UK companies. It's not just the building trade.
Perhaps "If only British education, training, management and attitudes towards skilled tradesmen were the same as in Germany" might have been a better thread title. As Dax H pointed out, if qualifications have been eroded to the point any numpty can pass then what do we expect? Groucho's issue seems more to be with the lack of professionalism in the management of the companies, something that is endemic in UK companies. It's not just the building trade.
Post edited at 11:19
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In reply to Dax H:
I know what you mean,it's like colleges just go through the motions with the enthasis being put on getting them qualified instead of actually teaching them anything.attitudes need to change towards tradesmen,we shouldn't be viewed as thick idiots,I chose to do this,I passed my exams at school and could have done a-levels, but I was fascinated with making things.to build a large building from lumps of clay and make it not only functional but beautiful still gets me excited and gives me joy(sad I know).when I was learning my trade I actually loved the learning and bought as many books as I could which I still have and use for reference.another thing that amuses me is how surprised people are that I'm better at maths than they are,of course I am I spend half my life doing it. On the other hand though when someone's having a major catastrophe at home and is clueless about what to do,all of a sudden you become the best thing since sliced bread(family especially)
I know what you mean,it's like colleges just go through the motions with the enthasis being put on getting them qualified instead of actually teaching them anything.attitudes need to change towards tradesmen,we shouldn't be viewed as thick idiots,I chose to do this,I passed my exams at school and could have done a-levels, but I was fascinated with making things.to build a large building from lumps of clay and make it not only functional but beautiful still gets me excited and gives me joy(sad I know).when I was learning my trade I actually loved the learning and bought as many books as I could which I still have and use for reference.another thing that amuses me is how surprised people are that I'm better at maths than they are,of course I am I spend half my life doing it. On the other hand though when someone's having a major catastrophe at home and is clueless about what to do,all of a sudden you become the best thing since sliced bread(family especially)
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In reply to Wsdconst:
I was the opposite, I left school with nothing and everyone including me thought I was as thick as 2 short planks.
I nailed technical collage though because I was interested and have breezed through every test, exam and training I have done since.
I often think about doing my GCSEs (wasn't allowed to take them because I stood no chance of passing) but with the hours I put in running my business I'm likely to breakdown if I take more on.
> I chose to do this,I passed my exams at school and could have done a-levels, but I was fascinated with making things.
I was the opposite, I left school with nothing and everyone including me thought I was as thick as 2 short planks.
I nailed technical collage though because I was interested and have breezed through every test, exam and training I have done since.
I often think about doing my GCSEs (wasn't allowed to take them because I stood no chance of passing) but with the hours I put in running my business I'm likely to breakdown if I take more on.
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In reply to Wsdconst:
Standards have ,and will continue to drop.
I'm a joiner,and often see houses going up in no time.
Me and a few fellow joiners and builders have long been of the opinion that if a house is going up too quick ,corners and standards are being cut.
Was working with a Lancashire plumber here in Jockland this week ,and he was saying the standard of work on the big sites down his way ,was shocking.
The Germans always seem to be ahead with tool and building technique innovations ,which is good.but speed of construction is not what it's all about.
Standards have ,and will continue to drop.
I'm a joiner,and often see houses going up in no time.
Me and a few fellow joiners and builders have long been of the opinion that if a house is going up too quick ,corners and standards are being cut.
Was working with a Lancashire plumber here in Jockland this week ,and he was saying the standard of work on the big sites down his way ,was shocking.
The Germans always seem to be ahead with tool and building technique innovations ,which is good.but speed of construction is not what it's all about.
Post edited at 17:24
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