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I'm trying to update my aging collection of quickdraws ! I'm looking at quickdraws specifically for sport climbing. Light weight would be good. Any advice?
In reply to apw:
I'd go for keylock ones; most non-wire gates seem to be that now, so it's not hard nor mean that they will be expensive. Keylocks are easier to unclip from bolts when lowering off and less likely to catch your fingers etc in falls. I'm really happy with the DMM ones I have http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/dmm-shadow-dmm-alpha-and-dm... particularly the Shadows are brilliant all rounders and reasonably light, but there are plenty of good alternatives from other firms.
I'd go for keylock ones; most non-wire gates seem to be that now, so it's not hard nor mean that they will be expensive. Keylocks are easier to unclip from bolts when lowering off and less likely to catch your fingers etc in falls. I'm really happy with the DMM ones I have http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/dmm-shadow-dmm-alpha-and-dm... particularly the Shadows are brilliant all rounders and reasonably light, but there are plenty of good alternatives from other firms.
In reply to apw:
Been looking too, check out Petzl Spirit Express, seem to be one of the lightest (sub 100g per draw) The only downside I can see is that they do have the old style straight spine.
I don't have any yet so can't comment as to use.
Best,
S
Been looking too, check out Petzl Spirit Express, seem to be one of the lightest (sub 100g per draw) The only downside I can see is that they do have the old style straight spine.
I don't have any yet so can't comment as to use.
Best,
S
In reply to apw: As you've already been told - Petzl Spirit - assuming money is no one object.
Otherwise, loads of decent options made in the UK from DMM. If you're on a budget Decathlon often have OK ones from Camp or Simond at really cheap prices and Go Outdoor have been stocking some nice Mammut sport draws recently.
FWIW I recently bought a full set of DMM Alpha Sport as I could get them far cheaper than the Petzls. However, have not yet used them as I keep going Trad climbing instead!
Otherwise, loads of decent options made in the UK from DMM. If you're on a budget Decathlon often have OK ones from Camp or Simond at really cheap prices and Go Outdoor have been stocking some nice Mammut sport draws recently.
FWIW I recently bought a full set of DMM Alpha Sport as I could get them far cheaper than the Petzls. However, have not yet used them as I keep going Trad climbing instead!
In reply to apw:
For sport climbing light weight is far less important than ease of clipping and ease of grabbing. And non-hooking keylock noses as already mentioned.
Petzl Spirits - as also already mentioned - seem to be generally regarded as the gold standard, but the newer Djinns look really good too and are cheaper.
The Alpha Easy from Grivel looks like the ne plus ultra for ease of grabbing
For sport climbing light weight is far less important than ease of clipping and ease of grabbing. And non-hooking keylock noses as already mentioned.
Petzl Spirits - as also already mentioned - seem to be generally regarded as the gold standard, but the newer Djinns look really good too and are cheaper.
The Alpha Easy from Grivel looks like the ne plus ultra for ease of grabbing
In reply to apw:
I picked petzl spirits up off the internet for about £11 a draw and they are great. I don't see any downsides to them....
I picked petzl spirits up off the internet for about £11 a draw and they are great. I don't see any downsides to them....
In reply to AlanLittle:
A friend bought a couple of these for the very reason they're made but found them to be terrible to use. I think the plastic sleeve proved slippier than fabric to grab so he's ditched them and he's gone back to standard bones. I'd been tempted by them myself but after his review, I'll pass. Some folk might like them of course, so you pays your money....
> The Alpha Easy from Grivel looks like the ne plus ultra for ease of grabbing
A friend bought a couple of these for the very reason they're made but found them to be terrible to use. I think the plastic sleeve proved slippier than fabric to grab so he's ditched them and he's gone back to standard bones. I'd been tempted by them myself but after his review, I'll pass. Some folk might like them of course, so you pays your money....
In reply to apw:
A lot of people like the clipping action on the new WC Proton quickdraw. And as mentioned before, the clipping action is what really makes or breaks (not literally) a sports draw.
A lot of people like the clipping action on the new WC Proton quickdraw. And as mentioned before, the clipping action is what really makes or breaks (not literally) a sports draw.
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In reply to Ysgo:
I bought some WC Protons earlier this year, they are well designed and excellent to use with an easy clipping action.
> A lot of people like the clipping action on the new WC Proton quickdraw. And as mentioned before, the clipping action is what really makes or breaks (not literally) a sports draw.
I bought some WC Protons earlier this year, they are well designed and excellent to use with an easy clipping action.
In reply to Christheclimber:
I used Chris's protons, for the first time along with my alpha sports, for two weeks in Kalymnos, both were excellent draws and very little between them
Cheers
I used Chris's protons, for the first time along with my alpha sports, for two weeks in Kalymnos, both were excellent draws and very little between them
Cheers
In reply to apw:
If you can afford some the DMM revolver biners offer numerous advantages for sport climbing. Reduced rope wear, softer falls, easier to bounce back up when you're hanging in space, reduced rope drag etc. Expensive but the cost is at least offset a bit by the fact rope will last longer. Definitely worth having at least a couple.
The only caveat is don't use them too low down if you've got a belayer significantly lighter than you.
If you can afford some the DMM revolver biners offer numerous advantages for sport climbing. Reduced rope wear, softer falls, easier to bounce back up when you're hanging in space, reduced rope drag etc. Expensive but the cost is at least offset a bit by the fact rope will last longer. Definitely worth having at least a couple.
The only caveat is don't use them too low down if you've got a belayer significantly lighter than you.
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In reply to apw:
My sport rack is predominantly DMM Alphas and Shadows, usually the long 18cm ones. Good for dogging and pretty durable. Not too heavy either - I'm usually working routes so weight isn't really an issue but they're fine for onsighting, even on long 30-40m stamina-fests abroad. I've got some BD ones too but I'll always reach for my DMMs first, especially the Shadows (because they're purple and I'm a girl).
My sport rack is predominantly DMM Alphas and Shadows, usually the long 18cm ones. Good for dogging and pretty durable. Not too heavy either - I'm usually working routes so weight isn't really an issue but they're fine for onsighting, even on long 30-40m stamina-fests abroad. I've got some BD ones too but I'll always reach for my DMMs first, especially the Shadows (because they're purple and I'm a girl).
In reply to stp:
>the DMM revolver biners offer numerous advantages for sport climbing. Reduced rope wear, softer falls, easier to bounce back up when you're hanging in space, reduced rope drag etc.
Interesting ideas, hadn't thought of any of that. I have one, which I use occasionally at the back of a roof.
>the DMM revolver biners offer numerous advantages for sport climbing. Reduced rope wear, softer falls, easier to bounce back up when you're hanging in space, reduced rope drag etc.
Interesting ideas, hadn't thought of any of that. I have one, which I use occasionally at the back of a roof.
In reply to AlanLittle:
Yeah that's another good use for them. I think they're great. Just a bit expensive. I've got about 5 now coz I particularly like the way that falls feel. I think the lack of friction at the biner nose means that the whole of the rope absorbs the shock. With a normal biner the high friction means that more of the shock is on the short, or climber side of the rope.
I don't think DMM market them particularly well. The marketing all seems aimed at the trad climbing, though personally I think they're even more useful for sport climbing where one typically takes far more falls.
Yeah that's another good use for them. I think they're great. Just a bit expensive. I've got about 5 now coz I particularly like the way that falls feel. I think the lack of friction at the biner nose means that the whole of the rope absorbs the shock. With a normal biner the high friction means that more of the shock is on the short, or climber side of the rope.
I don't think DMM market them particularly well. The marketing all seems aimed at the trad climbing, though personally I think they're even more useful for sport climbing where one typically takes far more falls.
2
In reply to stp:
You are doing a good job, Steve. I am going to buy some now.
> Yeah that's another good use for them. I think they're great. Just a bit expensive. I've got about 5 now coz I particularly like the way that falls feel. I think the lack of friction at the biner nose means that the whole of the rope absorbs the shock. With a normal biner the high friction means that more of the shock is on the short, or climber side of the rope.
> I don't think DMM market them particularly well. The marketing all seems aimed at the trad climbing, though personally I think they're even more useful for sport climbing where one typically takes far more falls.
You are doing a good job, Steve. I am going to buy some now.
1
In reply to apw:
I have one DMM Revolver that I have only used once on trad and experienced the issue raised above of the krab turning and neutralising its usefulness. IMO if you use double ropes and longer slings rope drag should never be an issue. It's been moved to my sport rack where I have used it on the lower offs to save wear and tear on the rope. I have noticed that some people use them on the 1st bolt which also looks like a good idea when circumstances allow so I will be buying another, probably a screw gate version.
Al
I have one DMM Revolver that I have only used once on trad and experienced the issue raised above of the krab turning and neutralising its usefulness. IMO if you use double ropes and longer slings rope drag should never be an issue. It's been moved to my sport rack where I have used it on the lower offs to save wear and tear on the rope. I have noticed that some people use them on the 1st bolt which also looks like a good idea when circumstances allow so I will be buying another, probably a screw gate version.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
>DMM Revolver... I have noticed that some people use them on the 1st bolt which also looks like a good idea when circumstances allow so I will be buying another, probably a screw gate version.
Er, why? Surely at the first bolt friction is a good thing if it helps to keep your belayer on the ground, and impact force is not the major consideration because it's a bolt? Or am I missing something?
>DMM Revolver... I have noticed that some people use them on the 1st bolt which also looks like a good idea when circumstances allow so I will be buying another, probably a screw gate version.
Er, why? Surely at the first bolt friction is a good thing if it helps to keep your belayer on the ground, and impact force is not the major consideration because it's a bolt? Or am I missing something?
In reply to apw:
BTW if you're an exceptionally cowardly sport climber like me, then in addition to your normal sport draws you'll also want a Beal Panic or a Kong Frog.
Basically a hybrid quickdraw / short clipstick.
BTW if you're an exceptionally cowardly sport climber like me, then in addition to your normal sport draws you'll also want a Beal Panic or a Kong Frog.
Basically a hybrid quickdraw / short clipstick.
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In reply to AlanLittle:
I believe it is used when the belayer is forced to stand a little way out from the base of the climb, to reduce friction because of the angle, but perhaps someone who currently practices this could enlighten us further.
Al
I believe it is used when the belayer is forced to stand a little way out from the base of the climb, to reduce friction because of the angle, but perhaps someone who currently practices this could enlighten us further.
Al
Post edited at 14:10
In reply to GridNorth:
In theory - definitely. In practice - I did some routes (up to 7c) using Revolver quickdraws and I didn't notice any significant difference. Alert belayer that's giving you (just) enough slack is far more important than any friction-reducing quickdraw
In theory - definitely. In practice - I did some routes (up to 7c) using Revolver quickdraws and I didn't notice any significant difference. Alert belayer that's giving you (just) enough slack is far more important than any friction-reducing quickdraw
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In reply to GridNorth:
I use one on first bolt, is to ease wear when lowering more than anything else.
I use one on first bolt, is to ease wear when lowering more than anything else.
In reply to lithos:
So would you consider using one at the lower off as well or is this likely to introduce too little friction I wonder. Has anyone tried it? I'm all for saving wear and tear on my rope but I suspect this may be another one of those "None Issues"
Al
So would you consider using one at the lower off as well or is this likely to introduce too little friction I wonder. Has anyone tried it? I'm all for saving wear and tear on my rope but I suspect this may be another one of those "None Issues"
Al
Post edited at 15:44
In reply to GridNorth:
good call i don't but it's not a bad idea. dont do a lot of top roing on sports crags. I dont find lack of friction an issue, maybe with a really light belayer and slick plate.
they are also quite heavy so getting rid of it first clip (and i sometimes have a small screwgate on bolt end as well) is ok, and expensive.
good call i don't but it's not a bad idea. dont do a lot of top roing on sports crags. I dont find lack of friction an issue, maybe with a really light belayer and slick plate.
they are also quite heavy so getting rid of it first clip (and i sometimes have a small screwgate on bolt end as well) is ok, and expensive.
In reply to chrissyboy:
What about when the sling wears out?
Alternatively these look interesting
http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=2647
What about when the sling wears out?
Alternatively these look interesting
http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=2647
In reply to stp:
I heard a rumour that Adrian Berry (might have been someone else, it was only a rumour) took a load to Raven Tor when they first came out to experiment with them. Found the rope drag was significantly reduced, but when he fell off two thirds of the way up the route, he came awfully close to the ground. Not enough friction so the rope stretched more than it normally would, plus the soft belay actually pulled his belayer up to the first bolt.
I heard a rumour that Adrian Berry (might have been someone else, it was only a rumour) took a load to Raven Tor when they first came out to experiment with them. Found the rope drag was significantly reduced, but when he fell off two thirds of the way up the route, he came awfully close to the ground. Not enough friction so the rope stretched more than it normally would, plus the soft belay actually pulled his belayer up to the first bolt.
In reply to Ysgo:
Yeah I've had the same experience. Obviously a softer fall always means a slightly longer fall. But if the belayer is much lighter they do get pulled up even further. When climbing with a much lighter friend last year I didn't use them, at least on crucial bolts, since she would just get yanked up too far.
Yeah I've had the same experience. Obviously a softer fall always means a slightly longer fall. But if the belayer is much lighter they do get pulled up even further. When climbing with a much lighter friend last year I didn't use them, at least on crucial bolts, since she would just get yanked up too far.
In reply to AlanLittle:
I like to use them on first bolt to reduce friction as long as long as I judge it safe to do so. Depends on the route, the difficulty of that section of climbing, the weight of my belayer and position of the bolts. But the first bolt is often the one where most friction is encountered because the belayer may stand back a bit.
A few weeks ago I did a route where the first crux was 1st to 2nd bolt. I fell off just before the second bolt, my belayer got yanked up and I was close to the ground. I considered changing the biner to a normal one to shorten the fall. But decided not to. I had taken the max fall and didn't hit the ground and decided I preferred the longer softer fall to a shorter harsher one. When there's less rope out the falls tend to be even harder because there's less rope to stretch and soften the fall.
But generally its definitely something to be very aware of when using these biner's, particularly if your belayer is lighter than you are.
> Surely at the first bolt friction is a good thing if it helps to keep your belayer on the ground, and impact force is not the major consideration because it's a bolt? Or am I missing something?
I like to use them on first bolt to reduce friction as long as long as I judge it safe to do so. Depends on the route, the difficulty of that section of climbing, the weight of my belayer and position of the bolts. But the first bolt is often the one where most friction is encountered because the belayer may stand back a bit.
A few weeks ago I did a route where the first crux was 1st to 2nd bolt. I fell off just before the second bolt, my belayer got yanked up and I was close to the ground. I considered changing the biner to a normal one to shorten the fall. But decided not to. I had taken the max fall and didn't hit the ground and decided I preferred the longer softer fall to a shorter harsher one. When there's less rope out the falls tend to be even harder because there's less rope to stretch and soften the fall.
But generally its definitely something to be very aware of when using these biner's, particularly if your belayer is lighter than you are.
In reply to stp:
interesting discussion, I'd replace the 1st biner with a single beefy screwgate alone if worried about decking to reduce fall length (obs being careful with orientation etc) maybe a revolver locker (not sure i have one!)...
interesting discussion, I'd replace the 1st biner with a single beefy screwgate alone if worried about decking to reduce fall length (obs being careful with orientation etc) maybe a revolver locker (not sure i have one!)...
In reply to apw:
I've been doing a lot of sport climbing lately while traveling so I've used my own gear and a lot of other people's gear. Means I've used a whole different bunch of draws. I've really liked the petzl spirits. Key lock makes cleaning routes so much easier and the dog bone is nice and chunky for when you're feeling a bit French.
I've been doing a lot of sport climbing lately while traveling so I've used my own gear and a lot of other people's gear. Means I've used a whole different bunch of draws. I've really liked the petzl spirits. Key lock makes cleaning routes so much easier and the dog bone is nice and chunky for when you're feeling a bit French.
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