UKC

I went to a new wall last night, and had a "fun" experience while leading. The wall's about 10m high, with 4 bolts and then the anchor. The spacing seemed a bit weird, roughly:

x anchor x
2m
x bolt
1.5m
x bolt
1.5m
x bolt
2m
x bolt
3m
_ ground _

Moving off from the final bolt, I fell off and (gently) collided with my belayer. At the time, this was quite surprising, but in hindsight it shouldn't have been:

* belayer weighs 50% what I weigh - inevitable she would be lifted
* final bolt is 4m above first bolt; rope stretch + slack + 3m of rope between belayer and first bolt added is probably around 4m

Now I'm wondering:

1. should the belayer have been attached to the floor?
2. should the belayer have extra weight attached?
3. could the bolting be improved?
4. surely the last bolt is the safest place to fall off... so what would happen if I fell earlier?
5. will she ever belay me again?

In reply to humptydumpty:







6. Should I lose some weight?

In reply to humptydumpty:

At that weight difference, yes, one of those depending on which the wall has (or someone else hanging onto the back of or clipped to the belayer's harness if they don't). Being a heavier climber (18st ish) who climbs with lighter people (no more than 13st), I've thought about this a lot, and in practice it seems to me that when leading in most wall settings that the belayer can be no less than two thirds of the weight of the climber before an unsafe situation is created (e.g. the belayer flying up and hitting the first bolt, thus possibly causing you to be dropped or equipment failure) if you don't use a ground anchor or weight bag.


Possibly, but it's by the by, as the safety issue is greater lower down.


You'd probably have decked. FWIW, when leading I always assume I won't be caught until I've got second in, though a few people I know are quick enough to react (which requires a very quick take in, sitting down or running backwards to get the rope tight) and have caught me off the first clip.


I have no idea.

In reply to humptydumpty:

A sandbag, used carefully (lanyard length and positioning) sounds like a good idea with a belayer that light.
jk

In reply to Lusk:


7. Who will put me together again?

In reply to Neil Williams:

Thanks, useful info. I'm trying to get into falling off, but this experience wasn't particularly encouraging. Sandbag sounds ideal, but I'll probably be looking for another wall as they don't have them in this place. What do you do when you're outside?!

In reply to humptydumpty:
>What do you do when you're outside?!

Make a ground anchor for the belayer using trad gear or bolts on a convenient boulder if there are any.

In reply to humptydumpty:


Cock up my ropework so the drag would catch me even if my belayer were asleep

More seriously: Mostly climb with people my size, get some extra drad from the clips/rock, pick and choose where I'm extra careful not to fall and still occasionally get it wrong ending in a big fall and a collision with the belayer.

jk

In reply to humptydumpty:

With that kind of weight difference I'd defiantly have the belayer use a ballast bag /ground anchor of some kind, if you'd have fallen off by the 3rd bolt there is a decent chance you'd have decked out. Even climbing on higher walls where hitting the floor isn't going to be an issue for most of the climb it's still not pleasant for your belayer to be hauled into the air.

Outside, assuming you're stuck with the same partner you can always tie them down to a large rock or tree to stop them being hauled to far into the air / rock face.

In reply to humptydumpty:
Varies between taking the risk, relying on the fact that you tend to get more rope drag outdoors thus providing a bit of friction, pairing up so I have the heavier belayer, having someone hang onto the back of the harness, finding something e.g. a tree to anchor off, or just not leading (because I'm a massive wuss)

If the wall doesn't have sandbags/ground anchors and they don't object to you doing it, you could fill a rucksack with heavy stuff and use that, though there is the risk of it failing as it's not designed for that purpose. Or suggest the wall get some - they really should!

In reply to humptydumpty:
50% is a big weight difference, you're belayer'll go flying every time....

climbing trad there's almost always something to tie your belayer to (stop them running away :-D)
trees, bushed, rocks, upsidedown gear near the floor..... (we've once used a stack of stones piled up over a sling......)
I (or really my belayer) do this all the time......
when you're on the ground, it doesn't necessarily need to be a bomber full anchor, a single bit of ok gear is fine: it's only there to add to the belayer's weight.

there's a wall local to us that refuses to supply sandbags because of some dumb BS: a.n. other 1/4 wit at another wall did their back in lifting a sandbag, tried to sue, etc. etc. therefore this place won't supply them. Instead they have bolts attached to the base of the wall; it's just a pity that these bolts are attached above waist height........ Useless!

In reply to daWalt:


Anchoring in front of the belayer seems dangerous anyway - surely that sends the belayer head first into the wall?

In reply to humptydumpty:

Quite, they need to be on the floor.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Even the floor in front of the belayer is bad, right? i'd expect the following order:

anchor | belayer | wall

In reply to humptydumpty:

I think many people do not realise how long a fall will be.

I had a sobering experience at Kilnsey while belaying a friend who fell off while trying to clip a bolt above his head on a warm up. He fell about 25ft which seemed a horrendous distance until we did the maths. His feet were about a foot above the last bolt (1ft) he was trying to clip at arms' length (silly, I know, but it's where he always clips it from). He's a tall lad so, say, 7ft from toes to finger tips, (total 8ft) plus rope coming back down to his harness, say ,another 3ft (total 11ft). Double that before the rope comes tight on the bolt (22ft) add a bit for stretch, and the fact I was feeding him slack for the clip. Then add a bit more for my being pulled forward by the momentum he picked up in a 20ft+ fall and it suddenly makes sense that he fell so far despite his feet being a mere foot above the last bolt. Thank God it was Kilnsey so not much for him to hit.
1. Lesson 1 Don't clip at arm's length unless you really have to and don't do it on a polished warm up you are complacently confident you could do with your eyes shut

2. Lesson 2 You're probably going to fall further than you think, even on bolts

In reply to humptydumpty:

aye well... complaining to the wall staff was to total waste of time; they were insistent that what they have is adequate.
on reflection I should have challenged them to test it out for themselves with a suitably loaded weight bag.

but grnd anchors anywhere on floor is ok, and on the wall at ankle level is alright too; i'v seen this in a couple dl of places.
you just stand side on, tight against the wall.

In reply to humptydumpty:

meeting the climber part way up the wall is part of the fun of being a small belayer

In reply to daWalt:



Good point - will try to remember this.

In reply to ceri:

Not everyone enjoys it that much, sadly! And I dread to think how I would feel belaying someone 30 stone...

In reply to Wiley Coyote:




Although I get where you are coming from, you fall the same distance whether you clip at waist or from below. It is just that you get nearer the ground it you clip low, which is logical as you fell off lower and travelled the same distance. The main difference is that clipping high can encourage the belayer to keep a lot of stack in the system.

In reply to humptydumpty:

My missus said they were only allowed a 20kg weight difference when she learnt to climb in Germany. In reality a flying belayer is only a problem if they're not used to it and the first bolt is low enough for them to hit hard.

In reply to David Coley:

I don't get that. The big problem here was that he had pulled up all the extra slack to clip above his head. Let's say the bolts were 8ft apart so that much is inevitable at some stage no matter where you clip from but by clipping at full stretch he also pulled up the extra rope coming back down to his harness making 8ft plus approx 3 ft making a total of 11ft of rope out and so a fall of 22ft plus slack and stretch.

If he had not done that and fallen from the same point he'd have had about 4ft out making a fall of 8ft plus slack and stetch. And if he'd pressed on and clipped at waist level his worst case scenario would have been 8ft of rope out making a fall of 16ft plus slack and stretch)

Or am I missing something?

In reply to humptydumpty:

I generally stay very close to the wall until the fourth bolt has been clipped at my local wall. This is probably overkill but protects against really bad clipping of the fourth bolt. On all bolts below that I only promise to keep my climber off the ground if they clip properly... However on the ~10m walls at my wall there are at least 5 bolts!

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

assume bolts 2m apart, not that it matters.
Example 1. you fall with the bolt at your waist, fall = 4m
Example 2. you fall reaching for the bolt from below. Assume , not that it matters: with your feet at the same height as the last bolt.

You waist is about 1m above the lower bolt. you pull up slack to clip. There is then 3m of rope out (2m to upper bolt, 1m back to your waist). You fall. You end up 3m below the last bolt, and you fell this 3m, plus the 1m your waist was above the bolt. Total = 4m

So in both examples you fall the same distance, but in the second case you end up lower down, which is reasonable 'cos you fell from lower down the route.

The force on the belayer is the same in both cases.

Clipping from the waist might be better if there is something to hit, because you might not travel far enough to hit it. Clipping low might be if the holds are better, but also if you would hit the ledge anyhow, because you will not have fallen so far, and hence be travelling at a lower speed.

In reply to humptydumpty:

I used to belay someone twice my weight, some walls have sand bags, others you need a sling and krab to clip to the floor or the bottom of the wall. The floor anchors aren't always obvious, sometimes covered to stop trip hazard so do ask the wall staff. I dont like the bottom of the wall ones, I was taught to have the bag behind me but clipped to the front of the harness.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

You're missing something...

Of your 11 feet of slack , 3 feet of it was already going down. There's 8 foot of rope that changes from up to down in both cases - giving you a fall of 16 foot + distance for belayer moving + extra slack + rope stretch... Easy to get to about 25 foot from all that lot.

From experience there probably is some extra distance you fall when clipping high - but it's because you're pulling through arm-loads of slack and your belayer is giving you more than you need - it's that extra bit that drops you further.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:


this is where you went wrong. You simply took 11ft and doubled it. That only works if ALL of the rope out is because you have gained height.

If you clip a bolt, then pull up 10ft of slack, but don't climb up 10ft, you will not fall 20ft. The extreme case is if you simply clip a bolt, pull up 10ft and jump off. You will only fall 10ft. (Plus stretch etc.) Traversing is the same.

Don't feel bad, in my experience 90% of climbers do not know this.

In reply to David Coley:



Aha. The dull thud you just heard was the penny dropping. I see now that the length of the fall would be the same since the plummeting climber starts from lower down the crag. However, he does end up nearer the ground since, as you correctly say, the length of the fall is the same in both cases. So, working on the basis that in most cases height is safety, I'd still go for a waist clip unless I was on bombproof jugs pulling up yards of slack.

Thanks for the maths/geometry lesson. O levels seem a very long time ago....

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

I had to model this with a piece of string before I was convinced.

Al

In reply to humptydumpty:

It's certainly not ideal. Ideally you want a straight line up to the first bolt as you say.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:


Well put. I didn't understand David's point until I read that. Interesting.

I'd also add that pulling up rope to clip overhead is both slower and more strenuous than clipping when level with a bolt. However you then have a top rope for the next few moves, and if there's a lot of rope out and the moves are hard then having the weight of the rope pulling you up rather than down is an advantage. Plus the psychological advantage of having a rope above you.

Ultimately it seems like the best clipping position is always defined by the rock: where the best hand and footholds are, though its not always obvious when the climbing is near one's limit.

In reply to stp:


I'd agree - if you are very secure in your position, why not clip (or for that matter place gear) high? Often, though, if clipping high on a wall feels insecure it's because you're lower than the setter intended

In reply to humptydumpty:


It's interesting that you seem less concerned than her. Since its your life shouldn't it be: would you let her?

I climbed with someone much lighter than me earlier this year and it was great. She was a very good belayer and the difference in weight meant I was guaranteed a soft catch. However the weight difference definitely wasn't 50% which is an unusually large percentage.

Another issue is what's it like when you're belaying her? Are you able to still give her a dynamic belay? Last year I was belayed by someone heavier than me and when I fell unexpectedly I was stopped far too abruptly. I ended up with bruised ribs that took several weeks to heal. So that's another possible risk to consider when climbing with someone much lighter. This is especially true if you're using an autolocking belay device. You might need to practice giving her dynamic belay, usually by moving forward or jumping upward when the rope comes tight.

In reply to stp:

For me it's a bit of both. I do get concerned about injuring a lighter belayer by taking a heavier fall, and that's not just because slamming them against the wall might cause me to be dropped, it's also because I don't like hurting people. Indeed, I'd say that concern outweighs the concern for my own safety, but maybe that's just me


As I mentioned upthread (through lots of experimentation) 2/3 of the climber's weight does seem to be the point where a ground anchor or weight bag is necessary to be safe.


Yes, this is something I (as a nearly 18 stone climber) very much need to think about when belaying most of the people I climb with, the heaviest of whom is only about 13.5 stone.

In reply to stp:


I didn't really see it that way. She's using an auto-locker, and can't go past the first bolt. So while I get a soft catch or possibly land on her head, she can smack into the wall and have a person fall on top of her. I know which I'd choose!



See point 6 above



Worth considering. I use an ATC XP, but I should probably turn it round to low-friction mode. I'll try a little jump or step; presumably this is harder to do when the fall isn't anticipated. Not much falling off going on yet, but we'll see how we get on.

In reply to humptydumpty:




I don't believe that for most belayers and most falls an ATC gives a softer catch than a grigir, especially for an unplanned fall. From what I have noted, people seem happier to attempt a soft catch when using a grigri than with a belay plate. This is only logical: knowing the thing is going to lock means stepping into the wall, jumping up in the air etc. feels a little less worrying. Outside, rather than at the wall, the ground is often covered in trip hazards; tripping whilst catching a fall on a belay plate isn't a good idea.

In reply to humptydumpty:

This reminds me of a session we had at headend quarry. With no experience I went with a friend and our two children aged 8 & 10yrs old. He set things up and the kids had a great time climbing top rope etc. Another friend of mine turned up and had a go. 3/4 of the way up he slipped off and I was catapulted into the wall pretty fast. I was both shocked and stunned at how violently it happened. Never been like that before with my 3.5st daughter falling off. I am about 13-14st so not light weight. Mate is probably 12st.

Then the other friend pointed out that as the kids are so light it makes life a bit easier to have a pully running at the top (On some walls with thick ropes I have seen me feeding the rope through to let them down).

In reply to David Coley:




But it's the fact you end up closer to the ground that is the most important thing. Avoiding contact with the ground is pretty fundamental. Someone reading what you wrote might, without understanding the implications, might think that you are saying overhead clipping makes no difference.

In reply to humptydumpty:

Definitely need a ground anchor or ballast. Based on experience I'd have said 1/3 weight difference is the upper limit for no ground anchor/ballast.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


Hence I included the sentence: "So in both examples you fall the same distance, but in the second case you end up lower down, which is reasonable 'cos you fell from lower down the route."

I don't want anyone to get the wrong end of the stick, but I would like to remove the falsehood, which is common, that clipping high means you fall further because of the added length of rope between your waist and the clip.

A ground fall is an interesting example, particularly at walls. Often you are so close to the ground (first or second clip) that you will hit the ground no matter what when clipping a bolt. Hence you want to protect your ankles by making sure your are as low on the wall as possible. I normally cheat if the moves are hard by clipping the first two bolts by using the holds of an easier route and then down climb. Otherwise I almost most always clip low on the first 2 bolts. Outside is different as the second bolt is often a long way up.

In reply to David Coley:

I think the phrase "clip low" may be misleading as well. I think you use it to mean "clipping from below the bolt", rather than "clipping when the bolt is low relative to the climber". Without context, I'd have assumed the latter meaning.

In reply to humptydumpty:


Yep, clipping from below the bolt.

In reply to David Coley:

You fall further if you clip low because rope stretch.

In reply to Donald82:

Why?

In reply to andrewmcleod:


Well I guess you have another 1m of rope too stretch. However the fall factor is therefore lower, so the stretch per metre of rope will be less.

Someone should stick it into the rope model on www.multipitchclimbing.com and plot a graph.

In reply to humptydumpty:
hi
I know the feeling for the full effect fall of outside...

weighing down the belayer is good. Ataltach weight to belay loop of harness. Do not clip anything to harness itself and definitely not the handy clip thing at back.

If you pull the front and back of harness you'll get crushed kidneys....

In reply to alasdair19:





Yeah I'm aware of the risk, but that loop at the back looks very tempting to the uninformed - much stronger than the gear loops on my harness.

In reply to David Coley:

If the distance between the bolts is d, then as you say, a blown clip from anywhere between the two bolts will, before rope stretch, result in a fall of length 2d. But if the leader's waist is h feet above the lower bolt, he will end up hanging (2d-h) feet below that bolt (without rope stretch) if the clip is blown. In other words, the "clipping height" h is subtracted from the worst-case below-bolt level of 2d you'd get from falling with waist at the second bolt but no clip.

So, if you climb up to waist high to the second bolt and fall without clipping, you end up d feet below the first bolt, but the distance you can end up below the first bolt can increase to a (possibly unattainable) maximum of 2d as the blown clip is made from lower and lower positions. (All this without rope stretch.)

Rope stretch blunts the distinctions, e.g. higher clipping heights give higher stopping positions without rope stretch, but then there is more rope stretch because of higher fall factors. That said, in the range of values that are of interest, I don't think the fall factor changes all that much. The amount of variation in the fall factor in different scenarios depends on the ratio of the bolt spacing to the distance of the lower bolt from the ground. For example, if the bolt spacing is half the distance of the lower bolt to the ground, then the fall factor varies from about 0.5 to 0.7. Once the bolts are way above the ground, the difference in fall factors will be negligible.

All told, my gut feeling is that if there is something to hit, you are better off clipping high (i.e. waist close high bolt) and hope that rope stretch doesn't do you in.

This is all for sport climbing. With half ropes properly managed by the belayer, there is no penalty for blowing a clip, which actually makes me wonder whether some sport climbs with dangerous starts might be better done with half ropes.

In reply to David Coley:

Good point. Didn't think of that

Maybe depends how high up you are when you fall?

If your really high the fall factor's pretty much the same but you've an extra meter. If you're low fall factor's significantly higher.