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I'm off to the Cairngorms next March and I was looking at hiring a guide for a couple of days.
I just happened to read the terms and conditions of one guide stating that if he/she cancels due to bad weather then there is no refund and that adequate insurance for this should be taken out before the booking.
Is this normal practise? I've hired a couple of guides before and with at least one of them this was certainly not the case.
Thanks
I just happened to read the terms and conditions of one guide stating that if he/she cancels due to bad weather then there is no refund and that adequate insurance for this should be taken out before the booking.
Is this normal practise? I've hired a couple of guides before and with at least one of them this was certainly not the case.
Thanks
In reply to BStar:
Seems a bit unreasonable. Do they offer the opportunity to chose another date free of charge in such an eventuality?
On a similar vein I booked a hot air balloon trip with a group of friends in September. Their T&C state no refunds in the event of adverse weather such as high winds, but you have 12 months to re-book as many times as necessary until you get a flight. So far we have had 4 cancellations and are delaying it now until the spring.
Seems a bit unreasonable. Do they offer the opportunity to chose another date free of charge in such an eventuality?
On a similar vein I booked a hot air balloon trip with a group of friends in September. Their T&C state no refunds in the event of adverse weather such as high winds, but you have 12 months to re-book as many times as necessary until you get a flight. So far we have had 4 cancellations and are delaying it now until the spring.
In reply to Trangia:
Yup, sounds unfair as defining a bad weather is a challenge itself. Also, is it based on the forecast or the actual weather?
I understand that the guide does not earn anything if the day is re-booked, but I would assume that it's the nature of the business.
Yup, sounds unfair as defining a bad weather is a challenge itself. Also, is it based on the forecast or the actual weather?
I understand that the guide does not earn anything if the day is re-booked, but I would assume that it's the nature of the business.
In reply to PPP:
"PARTICIPANTS SHOULD ARRANGE CANCELLATION INSURANCE & ACCIDENT COVER AS REQUIRED.
We will endeavour to ensure that your course runs as planned. However, we reserve the right to modify the content of a course due to prevailing weather or other conditions and will always try to offer a suitable alternative itinerary or location. In the event of a cancellation by <Guides Company> due to weather conditions no refund can be offered."
It certainly does seem unfair, as I know first hand that the Scottish winter weather can be harsh at best.
"PARTICIPANTS SHOULD ARRANGE CANCELLATION INSURANCE & ACCIDENT COVER AS REQUIRED.
We will endeavour to ensure that your course runs as planned. However, we reserve the right to modify the content of a course due to prevailing weather or other conditions and will always try to offer a suitable alternative itinerary or location. In the event of a cancellation by <Guides Company> due to weather conditions no refund can be offered."
It certainly does seem unfair, as I know first hand that the Scottish winter weather can be harsh at best.
In reply to BStar:
To be fair, I took a look at their website (SMS acronym) and the itineraries don't look too good. I did not have many courses over my climbing years, but apart from avalanche awareness, there isn't many things you couldn't learn yourself or your mates could show you few things.
P.s. their description recommends to take this: "Waterproof Trousers – Gore-tex or shoft-shell". If someone recommends to use soft shell trousers (ignoring the spelling mistake) as waterproof trousers for Scottish winter, then you shouldn't be going out in bad weather!
To be fair, I took a look at their website (SMS acronym) and the itineraries don't look too good. I did not have many courses over my climbing years, but apart from avalanche awareness, there isn't many things you couldn't learn yourself or your mates could show you few things.
P.s. their description recommends to take this: "Waterproof Trousers – Gore-tex or shoft-shell". If someone recommends to use soft shell trousers (ignoring the spelling mistake) as waterproof trousers for Scottish winter, then you shouldn't be going out in bad weather!
3
In reply to PPP:
>
Do they mean paramo type, rather than what I'd regard as a soft-shell
>
> P.s. their description recommends to take this: "Waterproof Trousers £ Gore-tex or shoft-shell". If someone recommends to use soft shell trousers (ignoring the spelling mistake) as waterproof trousers for Scottish winter, then you shouldn't be going out in bad weather!
Do they mean paramo type, rather than what I'd regard as a soft-shell
In reply to BStar:
None of the guys I know who work in Scotland operate on this basis.
Bad weather = rearrangement to another convenient time.
None of the guys I know who work in Scotland operate on this basis.
Bad weather = rearrangement to another convenient time.
1
In reply to BStar:
Given the fickleness of Scottish weather I'm surprised that a cancellation policy due to weather is available anyway? Have you looked into this?
As PPP says loss of earnings due to bad weather must be in the nature of the business and as I've said it seems unfair to penalise the client. If such insurance is available why doesn't the guide take it out on an annual basis?
My career was that of a surveyor. Sometimes heavy snowfall made it impossible to carry out a survey as the outside surfaces of the building, drain covers etc which meant days, sometimes even weeks, when a proper survey couldn't be undertaken. I always offered my clients a full refund, or an offer to do it free of further charge after the thaw, or a limited internal survey only which excluded any liability for the outside condition of the building. It was the nature of the business.
Any guides on this forum care to comment on this issue?
Given the fickleness of Scottish weather I'm surprised that a cancellation policy due to weather is available anyway? Have you looked into this?
As PPP says loss of earnings due to bad weather must be in the nature of the business and as I've said it seems unfair to penalise the client. If such insurance is available why doesn't the guide take it out on an annual basis?
My career was that of a surveyor. Sometimes heavy snowfall made it impossible to carry out a survey as the outside surfaces of the building, drain covers etc which meant days, sometimes even weeks, when a proper survey couldn't be undertaken. I always offered my clients a full refund, or an offer to do it free of further charge after the thaw, or a limited internal survey only which excluded any liability for the outside condition of the building. It was the nature of the business.
Any guides on this forum care to comment on this issue?
In reply to PPP:
I have never paid for instruction, coaching or guiding.
Got some advice ( and inspiration ) from the accomplished older members of the mountaineering club but was generally self taught.
As such, I can assure you that learning by the school of hard knocks in the mountains is quite trying and actually unnecessary.
With hindsight, I wish I had gone on some courses in my youth.
Many of my climbing mates went on to become guides, most of them took some pretty big knocks learning the hard way like myself, I have been relatively lucky.
> To be fair, I took a look at their website (SMS acronym) and the itineraries don't look too good. I did not have many courses over my climbing years, but apart from avalanche awareness, there isn't many things you couldn't learn yourself or your mates could show you few things.
I have never paid for instruction, coaching or guiding.
Got some advice ( and inspiration ) from the accomplished older members of the mountaineering club but was generally self taught.
As such, I can assure you that learning by the school of hard knocks in the mountains is quite trying and actually unnecessary.
With hindsight, I wish I had gone on some courses in my youth.
Many of my climbing mates went on to become guides, most of them took some pretty big knocks learning the hard way like myself, I have been relatively lucky.
3
In reply to PPP:
I think you are over exaggerating the point somewhat there. I see water proof trousers as something which are rarely needed to be carried with membrane based soft shell trousers (membranes without holes), and needed to be carried less often than not with my non membrane based soft shells.
> P.s. their description recommends to take this: "Waterproof Trousers £ Gore-tex or shoft-shell". If someone recommends to use soft shell trousers (ignoring the spelling mistake) as waterproof trousers for Scottish winter, then you shouldn't be going out in bad weather!
I think you are over exaggerating the point somewhat there. I see water proof trousers as something which are rarely needed to be carried with membrane based soft shell trousers (membranes without holes), and needed to be carried less often than not with my non membrane based soft shells.
1
In reply to BStar:
hello
for clarity are you considering hiring a BMG Guide?
Or an MIC /WML
regards
Alasdair
hello
for clarity are you considering hiring a BMG Guide?
Or an MIC /WML
regards
Alasdair
In reply to BStar:
It's hardly unfair, is it ? the conditions are pretty clearly stated so your choice depends on ( their cost + insurance) versus someone who has a different policy and you don't need insurance.
It's hardly unfair, is it ? the conditions are pretty clearly stated so your choice depends on ( their cost + insurance) versus someone who has a different policy and you don't need insurance.
In reply to Rick Graham:
Perhaps depends exactly what you mean by 'big knocks' (!), but for me the early days out on easy winter routes with mates, learning and making decisions ourselves, were great adventures then and treasured memories now. We all get a bit more experienced at some point but you never get back those early days of just going out and finding out for yourself.
I would say that winter skills courses can be valuable, if only for learning to axe arrest.
Perhaps depends exactly what you mean by 'big knocks' (!), but for me the early days out on easy winter routes with mates, learning and making decisions ourselves, were great adventures then and treasured memories now. We all get a bit more experienced at some point but you never get back those early days of just going out and finding out for yourself.
I would say that winter skills courses can be valuable, if only for learning to axe arrest.
In reply to BStar:
I think you'll find that there is no one absolute policy. It's really up to each individual guide, unless things have changed. I made my living guiding full time in the Alps for the last 27 years (retired this year... ). My own policy was that if a CLIENT cancelled then there would normally be no refund. Obviously if there were really good reasons - a bereavement or something like that then I'd either make an exception or offer them another week. Clients should always take out a cancellation insurance to cover the unexpected anyway, before parting with any money, so if for instance they injure themselves before the booking they'd be covered. If on the other hand it's ME that cancels then that's completely different. I don't see how a guide can cancel even if the weather is forecast to be atrocious and expect the client to automatically forfeit their money. Most guides - certainly myself - would always either grit their teeth and try to do something despite the weather or offer some other sort of activity. Or indeed negociate with the client to find a solution. Maybe offer the client another week...
I think you'll find that there is no one absolute policy. It's really up to each individual guide, unless things have changed. I made my living guiding full time in the Alps for the last 27 years (retired this year... ). My own policy was that if a CLIENT cancelled then there would normally be no refund. Obviously if there were really good reasons - a bereavement or something like that then I'd either make an exception or offer them another week. Clients should always take out a cancellation insurance to cover the unexpected anyway, before parting with any money, so if for instance they injure themselves before the booking they'd be covered. If on the other hand it's ME that cancels then that's completely different. I don't see how a guide can cancel even if the weather is forecast to be atrocious and expect the client to automatically forfeit their money. Most guides - certainly myself - would always either grit their teeth and try to do something despite the weather or offer some other sort of activity. Or indeed negociate with the client to find a solution. Maybe offer the client another week...
1
In reply to BStar: Have you rung them to ask as any amount of pontificating on here is not going to replace asking them first hand. It might just be that they word their t's and c's in a very harsh formal way to cover themselves if it really is so bloomin awful... worth the ask surely? On here you will get plenty of nay sayers perfectly happy to diss guides in general at a moments notice...
In reply to BStar:
At the end of the day it's their business and they can basically do what they want to do regarding policy. If they are busy and have lots of clients they can afford to be picky and make sure they get paid. I'm pretty sure most guides would find a way to give their client a great day though and teach them plenty so it's probably not often they need to cancel. If you know where to look you can get out and climb most days in winter. Andy Nesbit seems to be out nearly every day!!!
At the end of the day it's their business and they can basically do what they want to do regarding policy. If they are busy and have lots of clients they can afford to be picky and make sure they get paid. I'm pretty sure most guides would find a way to give their client a great day though and teach them plenty so it's probably not often they need to cancel. If you know where to look you can get out and climb most days in winter. Andy Nesbit seems to be out nearly every day!!!
In reply to BStar:
What Jon said.
I'd never cancel on someone and keep their money. The weather might dictate plan A has to change to plan B,C,D... and sometimes the option of rearranging. In fact I've taken a booking for the beginning of December today for a few days guided rock climbing, but I made it very clear the weather might not play ball so we may have to change our plans / rearrange / refund.
I'm only an MIA, not a guide, but my principles would be the same.
What Jon said.
I'd never cancel on someone and keep their money. The weather might dictate plan A has to change to plan B,C,D... and sometimes the option of rearranging. In fact I've taken a booking for the beginning of December today for a few days guided rock climbing, but I made it very clear the weather might not play ball so we may have to change our plans / rearrange / refund.
I'm only an MIA, not a guide, but my principles would be the same.
In reply to alasdair19:
I was looking to hire an MIC guide.
In reply to Casa Alfredino:
I've not contacted him/her, I was on there website browsing for prices and noticed the small print as such. To me it doesn't exactly sound fair, but I wasn't sure if this was standard practice.
Has anyone on the forum had any experience of cancelled guided days?
I was looking to hire an MIC guide.
In reply to Casa Alfredino:
I've not contacted him/her, I was on there website browsing for prices and noticed the small print as such. To me it doesn't exactly sound fair, but I wasn't sure if this was standard practice.
Has anyone on the forum had any experience of cancelled guided days?
In reply to BStar:
If you don't like the conditions then don't hire them.
I seldom cancel days in winter, as it always seems possible to teach something, or just have a good wild day out.
If you don't like the conditions then don't hire them.
I seldom cancel days in winter, as it always seems possible to teach something, or just have a good wild day out.
5
In reply to matt pigden:
Well, not really...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_Terms_in_Consumer_Contracts_Regulation...
I would argue that since the contract term in question (no refund for a weather cancellation):
a) has not been individually negotiated,
b) is not the main basis of the contract (which is providing guiding services in exchange for payment), and
c) provides significant detriment to the client and significant benefit to the guide,
the term might very well be unfair and could protentially be challenged.
> At the end of the day it's their business and they can basically do what they want to do regarding policy.
Well, not really...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_Terms_in_Consumer_Contracts_Regulation...
I would argue that since the contract term in question (no refund for a weather cancellation):
a) has not been individually negotiated,
b) is not the main basis of the contract (which is providing guiding services in exchange for payment), and
c) provides significant detriment to the client and significant benefit to the guide,
the term might very well be unfair and could protentially be challenged.
Post edited at 10:11
In reply to BStar:
Just talk to them. 99% chance they're very reasonable people and that clause is just in their to cover their ass in case they get a dickhead client ("You mean i won't necessarily be able to stand on top of Ben Nevis at 12:34 on 12th January? I want my money back!").
Just talk to them. 99% chance they're very reasonable people and that clause is just in their to cover their ass in case they get a dickhead client ("You mean i won't necessarily be able to stand on top of Ben Nevis at 12:34 on 12th January? I want my money back!").
In reply to BStar:
Hi Folks and especially BStar!
As it is my business you are discussing I thought I would join in if you don't mind.
I am totally open to feedback from clients regarding this issue, I know as mountain professionals it is something my colleagues and I discuss a lot as it is a very difficult issue for us.
As you know Scottish winter is a fickle beast and there are absolutely days when you may not be able to complete a planned objective due to weather conditions (especially if this is climbing related). However as professionals I believe that as a community we are extremely good at adapting our plans and providing a safe, enjoyable, learning experience in any conditions. It might sometimes be quite different from the plan, but navigation, avalanche awareness trip planning, climbing technique coaching, ropework skills are all things that can be covered at low level, or even inside if needed.
To this end I can say that I have only ever cancelled a day on the hill with a client once, this was due to hurricane Baw'bag (as it was known in Scotland!) crossing when I was planning to bag a couple of munros on Skye with a return client. It was obvious we were not going to make it anywhere near the summit, the client had little interest in a low level teaching day in those conditions and we had seen this coming a week or so in advance. On this occasion We were able to rearrange the dates, with no additional cost, no problem.
To not be able to provide an alternative day of some kind would be extremely rare, although not impossible, if this were to happen we would take reasonable steps to rearrange dates or offer some kind of credit for a future booking. This would be arranged on an individual basis if and when it ever happened.
The cancellation policy I have is there to protect me, my main aim is to make it clear that if the day is cancelled by the client at short notice, no refund would be given. I have driven across the country to meet a client, to get a phone call as I am waiting, to be told that they are not coming, the day has still cost me, so no refund, sorry. As I said above, in the very rare unlikely position of cancelling myself I would do everything reasonable to help rearrange, but somewhere there needs to be a bottom line, this is it.
To AndrewMacleoud, Thanks for the link, this is something I will look into and think about my wording. The original wording is something I stole directly from a much senior guide.
Also thanks for the head's-up regarding the spelling mistake, I will get onto it asap!
I hope this helps to answer your questions, if you have more, please give me a call or an email directly.
I will also soon be starting the UKC winter conditions updates, all I am waiting for is some winter!!
Thanks all
Ian Stewart (MIC)
stewartmountainskills.com
Hi Folks and especially BStar!
As it is my business you are discussing I thought I would join in if you don't mind.
I am totally open to feedback from clients regarding this issue, I know as mountain professionals it is something my colleagues and I discuss a lot as it is a very difficult issue for us.
As you know Scottish winter is a fickle beast and there are absolutely days when you may not be able to complete a planned objective due to weather conditions (especially if this is climbing related). However as professionals I believe that as a community we are extremely good at adapting our plans and providing a safe, enjoyable, learning experience in any conditions. It might sometimes be quite different from the plan, but navigation, avalanche awareness trip planning, climbing technique coaching, ropework skills are all things that can be covered at low level, or even inside if needed.
To this end I can say that I have only ever cancelled a day on the hill with a client once, this was due to hurricane Baw'bag (as it was known in Scotland!) crossing when I was planning to bag a couple of munros on Skye with a return client. It was obvious we were not going to make it anywhere near the summit, the client had little interest in a low level teaching day in those conditions and we had seen this coming a week or so in advance. On this occasion We were able to rearrange the dates, with no additional cost, no problem.
To not be able to provide an alternative day of some kind would be extremely rare, although not impossible, if this were to happen we would take reasonable steps to rearrange dates or offer some kind of credit for a future booking. This would be arranged on an individual basis if and when it ever happened.
The cancellation policy I have is there to protect me, my main aim is to make it clear that if the day is cancelled by the client at short notice, no refund would be given. I have driven across the country to meet a client, to get a phone call as I am waiting, to be told that they are not coming, the day has still cost me, so no refund, sorry. As I said above, in the very rare unlikely position of cancelling myself I would do everything reasonable to help rearrange, but somewhere there needs to be a bottom line, this is it.
To AndrewMacleoud, Thanks for the link, this is something I will look into and think about my wording. The original wording is something I stole directly from a much senior guide.
Also thanks for the head's-up regarding the spelling mistake, I will get onto it asap!
I hope this helps to answer your questions, if you have more, please give me a call or an email directly.
I will also soon be starting the UKC winter conditions updates, all I am waiting for is some winter!!
Thanks all
Ian Stewart (MIC)
stewartmountainskills.com
14
In reply to remus:
A few years ago I bumped into a mate of mine and his clients at the Vignettes hut. They were all looking very pleased with themselves... they were all wearing identical baseball caps. Embroidered on the side was an adaption of Ed Hillary's famous quote 'Pigne d'Arolla - we knocked the bastard off! 4 August 2005.' (note, I can't remember the real date, but it was spot on!)
> You mean i won't necessarily be able to stand on top of Ben Nevis at 12:34 on 12th January? I want my money back!
A few years ago I bumped into a mate of mine and his clients at the Vignettes hut. They were all looking very pleased with themselves... they were all wearing identical baseball caps. Embroidered on the side was an adaption of Ed Hillary's famous quote 'Pigne d'Arolla - we knocked the bastard off! 4 August 2005.' (note, I can't remember the real date, but it was spot on!)
In reply to ian stewart:
Hi Stewart,
Thanks for your reply, and I would just like to say that this thread was never meant as a personal attack or dig at your business, as above, I was looking through the guides available and wasn't sure if your T+Cs were standard ones and generally accepted as a few other websites don't even state them.
I think if worded slightly differently it would give more confidence in booking; rearranging dates at worse and changing the objective of the day is what I would expect, but at present it sounds like you could cancel if it's a bit windy with no repercussions!
Again, this wasn't intended to be a man/business hunt, and I appreciate your response.
Thanks
BStar
Hi Stewart,
Thanks for your reply, and I would just like to say that this thread was never meant as a personal attack or dig at your business, as above, I was looking through the guides available and wasn't sure if your T+Cs were standard ones and generally accepted as a few other websites don't even state them.
I think if worded slightly differently it would give more confidence in booking; rearranging dates at worse and changing the objective of the day is what I would expect, but at present it sounds like you could cancel if it's a bit windy with no repercussions!
Again, this wasn't intended to be a man/business hunt, and I appreciate your response.
Thanks
BStar
6
In reply to BStar:
Slight tangent and not being nerdy but there are no MIC guides. MICs are winter mountain instructors, (who often guide in the UK) and Guides are, well as described and they also instruct.
There's a huge raft of UK hill, mountain and climbing qualifications these days, almost one for everybody and paying customers often don't understand who they're getting. Any opportunity to offer up some clarity. Peace and love.
Slight tangent and not being nerdy but there are no MIC guides. MICs are winter mountain instructors, (who often guide in the UK) and Guides are, well as described and they also instruct.
There's a huge raft of UK hill, mountain and climbing qualifications these days, almost one for everybody and paying customers often don't understand who they're getting. Any opportunity to offer up some clarity. Peace and love.
5
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