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"Quarried grit is easier than natural grit"........Someone said this to me recently and I found myself agreeing, but I now wonder if I believe it. I seem to have done more of my harder leads on quarried than natural but wonder if this is just me and fewer opportunities to climb natural grit . I can think of routes on both rocks I have avoided as I expected them to be really tough. Wonder if this is a consensus view or not?
In reply to tmawer:
Well I don't think you'll get any sort of consensus as they are effectively two different rock types with regard to style so some people will climb better on one rather than the other.
Personally though I find climbing at Millstone always feels harder than Bamford. But then climbing at Hobsons Moor always feels easier than the natural grit in Chew Valley.
Well I don't think you'll get any sort of consensus as they are effectively two different rock types with regard to style so some people will climb better on one rather than the other.
Personally though I find climbing at Millstone always feels harder than Bamford. But then climbing at Hobsons Moor always feels easier than the natural grit in Chew Valley.
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In reply to tmawer:
Less weathered, sharper edges, less rounded holds, cracks less flared & more amenable to gear.
Quarried easier every time.
Less weathered, sharper edges, less rounded holds, cracks less flared & more amenable to gear.
Quarried easier every time.
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In reply to tmawer:
Don't believe that quarried grit is easier than natural. I imagine most climbers these days have been heavily influenced by indoor walls which are in my opinion much more similar to quarried grit than the vagaries of natural, and therefore quarried grit feels easier.
Don't believe that quarried grit is easier than natural. I imagine most climbers these days have been heavily influenced by indoor walls which are in my opinion much more similar to quarried grit than the vagaries of natural, and therefore quarried grit feels easier.
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In reply to Mark Collins:
I would have agreed with that - in fact I thought it myself - in the old days of vertical, crimpy brick edge climbing walls. They were perfect training for vertical, crimpy quarried grit. Modern climbing walls I would have thought less so.
I would have agreed with that - in fact I thought it myself - in the old days of vertical, crimpy brick edge climbing walls. They were perfect training for vertical, crimpy quarried grit. Modern climbing walls I would have thought less so.
Post edited at 14:57
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In reply to tmawer:
Quarried grit often requires you to be fitter (often steep, relentless crack lines etc) but natural grit requires a lot more use of less positive marginal holds, so my supposition is that the fitter you are, the easier quarried grit is and the better your are, the easier natural grit is.
I find natural grit easier......
Quarried grit often requires you to be fitter (often steep, relentless crack lines etc) but natural grit requires a lot more use of less positive marginal holds, so my supposition is that the fitter you are, the easier quarried grit is and the better your are, the easier natural grit is.
I find natural grit easier......
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In reply to tmawer:
I find quarried grit easier at pretty much any grade, but that is because I have always climbed much more on quarried grit than natural grit. I guess this is one of the reasons why we have grade disagreements.
I find quarried grit easier at pretty much any grade, but that is because I have always climbed much more on quarried grit than natural grit. I guess this is one of the reasons why we have grade disagreements.
In reply to tmawer:
These days I'm getting spanked by both natural and quarried with equal regularity
These days I'm getting spanked by both natural and quarried with equal regularity
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In reply to tmawer:
Whether it's easier or not doesn't matter. Far more important is that it's so much BETTER...
Whether it's easier or not doesn't matter. Far more important is that it's so much BETTER...
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In reply to tmawer:
I don't think it's easier or harder, just different.
Personally I think natural grit requires a bit more versatility in technique and balance than quarried, but quarried requires a bit more strength and stamina.
I don't think it's easier or harder, just different.
Personally I think natural grit requires a bit more versatility in technique and balance than quarried, but quarried requires a bit more strength and stamina.
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In reply to jon:
That's just heresy Jon
> Whether it's easier or not doesn't matter. Far more important is that it's so much BETTER...
That's just heresy Jon
Post edited at 16:07
In reply to tmawer:
Are your harder leads cracks?
On a lot of the cracks, even though the grade may be hard for you, you know that you can get good runners and be safe.
So I would say rather than being easier to climb its easier to push yourself.
I am sure most people would be the same being able to push themselves on routes that are "hard but well protected"
Are your harder leads cracks?
On a lot of the cracks, even though the grade may be hard for you, you know that you can get good runners and be safe.
So I would say rather than being easier to climb its easier to push yourself.
I am sure most people would be the same being able to push themselves on routes that are "hard but well protected"
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In reply to tmawer:
I found it more amenable at first because I came to grit from welsh rock and it seemed the skill set transferred more easily but as I got used to it (the natural) I found it fine. I know a couple of people who find the natural stuff more to their liking.
I found it more amenable at first because I came to grit from welsh rock and it seemed the skill set transferred more easily but as I got used to it (the natural) I found it fine. I know a couple of people who find the natural stuff more to their liking.
Post edited at 16:19
In reply to Mark Collins:
This is the point I've been making for ages with regard to jamming. It's not that jamming has got any harder, or even the average climber has become worse at jamming, it's that climbing walls are helping people train more at other aspects - use of small, positive crimpy holds for example. And because climbing grades are all relative, if you improve at one aspect, climbs which focus on that aspect will appear easy for the grade, and those which don't, will seem hard for the grade.
> Don't believe that quarried grit is easier than natural. I imagine most climbers these days have been heavily influenced by indoor walls which are in my opinion much more similar to quarried grit than the vagaries of natural, and therefore quarried grit feels easier.
This is the point I've been making for ages with regard to jamming. It's not that jamming has got any harder, or even the average climber has become worse at jamming, it's that climbing walls are helping people train more at other aspects - use of small, positive crimpy holds for example. And because climbing grades are all relative, if you improve at one aspect, climbs which focus on that aspect will appear easy for the grade, and those which don't, will seem hard for the grade.
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In reply to tmawer:
I think it's a completely spurious comment to say that one medium is easier than another. At the same grade, things will feel appropriately difficult based on your personal experience and strengths.
Except on Peak Limestone where everything is just f*cking hard even if you're Ondra.
I think it's a completely spurious comment to say that one medium is easier than another. At the same grade, things will feel appropriately difficult based on your personal experience and strengths.
Except on Peak Limestone where everything is just f*cking hard even if you're Ondra.
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In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
I prefer the natural stuff because it tends at my punter grade of VS toward less steep with more rests!! But I do get a buzz when I nail a steep quarry classic like S Crack S Crack (VS 4c) in ways that rounded slabby Peak classics just don't deliver.
I prefer the natural stuff because it tends at my punter grade of VS toward less steep with more rests!! But I do get a buzz when I nail a steep quarry classic like S Crack S Crack (VS 4c) in ways that rounded slabby Peak classics just don't deliver.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
I wish. I get the impression small, positive crimpy holds - or anything else relevant to training for actual climbing - are an endangered species at climbing walls these days, being rooted out in favour of jugs, blobs and volumes that provide more tendon friendly fun.
Furthermore, I'm a very average climber and I'm definitely worse at jamming than I was in the 1980s.
> climbing walls are helping people train more at other aspects - use of small, positive crimpy holds for example.
I wish. I get the impression small, positive crimpy holds - or anything else relevant to training for actual climbing - are an endangered species at climbing walls these days, being rooted out in favour of jugs, blobs and volumes that provide more tendon friendly fun.
Furthermore, I'm a very average climber and I'm definitely worse at jamming than I was in the 1980s.
In reply to tmawer:
Always found quarried grit harder. Mainly because of the lack of slabby stuff, but also find quarried cracks to be a bit slicker and more unforgiving than natural ones.
Always found quarried grit harder. Mainly because of the lack of slabby stuff, but also find quarried cracks to be a bit slicker and more unforgiving than natural ones.
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In reply to Chris Harris:
No, allowing for different styles of climbing they're pretty well matched grade for grade.
Quarried grit is more straightforward though. What you see is pretty much what you get and so it requires a deal less cunning than some natural grit routes do.
T.
> Less weathered, sharper edges, less rounded holds, cracks less flared & more amenable to gear.
> Quarried easier every time.
No, allowing for different styles of climbing they're pretty well matched grade for grade.
Quarried grit is more straightforward though. What you see is pretty much what you get and so it requires a deal less cunning than some natural grit routes do.
T.
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In reply to petegunn:
Have climbed a number of cracks around my limit on quarried grit, such as Twicker, The Grader, Wilton Wall, Billy Whizz but have not managed to get myself on the equivalents on natural grit such as Emerald Crack, Sentinel Crack, The Dangler........perhaps just more intimidated by them?
Have climbed a number of cracks around my limit on quarried grit, such as Twicker, The Grader, Wilton Wall, Billy Whizz but have not managed to get myself on the equivalents on natural grit such as Emerald Crack, Sentinel Crack, The Dangler........perhaps just more intimidated by them?
In reply to tmawer:
I tend to get more intimidated by quarried grit. Probably to do with the height. At Millstone I always feel like the crag is looming over me!... much more friendly at the wide open natural edges and as a result seem to find them easier. Having said that, I agree with the comments above that they really are two completely different mediums so hard to compare.
I tend to get more intimidated by quarried grit. Probably to do with the height. At Millstone I always feel like the crag is looming over me!... much more friendly at the wide open natural edges and as a result seem to find them easier. Having said that, I agree with the comments above that they really are two completely different mediums so hard to compare.
In reply to tmawer:
I've not tried Emerald Crack but Sentinel Crack is ridiculous. I think it's just an outlier.
> Have climbed a number of cracks around my limit on quarried grit, such as Twicker, The Grader, Wilton Wall, Billy Whizz but have not managed to get myself on the equivalents on natural grit such as Emerald Crack, Sentinel Crack, The Dangler........perhaps just more intimidated by them?
I've not tried Emerald Crack but Sentinel Crack is ridiculous. I think it's just an outlier.
In reply to tmawer:
Maybe the steep and sustained routes on quarried grit are harder as there is less friction, but the slabby routes are easier as there are more positive holds. Compare Millstone with Yarncliffe for example.
Maybe the steep and sustained routes on quarried grit are harder as there is less friction, but the slabby routes are easier as there are more positive holds. Compare Millstone with Yarncliffe for example.
In reply to Jimbo C:
Aren't yarncliffe and millstone a very similar style of climbing. Both being quarried grit, with similar 'just off vertical slabs?
Aren't yarncliffe and millstone a very similar style of climbing. Both being quarried grit, with similar 'just off vertical slabs?
In reply to tmawer:
How much grit is actually 'natural', and how much is quarried but older quarries? Parts of Stanage are quarried but I'm not sure I could identify which parts (although I have only been to Stanage once or twice).
How much grit is actually 'natural', and how much is quarried but older quarries? Parts of Stanage are quarried but I'm not sure I could identify which parts (although I have only been to Stanage once or twice).
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In reply to MischaHY: Lets be honest, all limestone is harder and better than any scrittle at the same grade. Shitstone is conditions dependant bollocks.
Andy F
Andy F
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Just different! If you train indoors on crimps then quarried will feel easier but you may struggle on traditional cracks and jamming. I find Natural grit seems to be more about awkward problems, slopers, cracks and jamming but I'm generalising of course!
In reply to andy farnell:
Wash your mouth out, young man!
> Lets be honest, all limestone is harder and better than any scrittle at the same grade. Shitstone is conditions dependant bollocks.
> Andy F
Wash your mouth out, young man!
In reply to Morty:
Why? Lets be honest, in the UK the average grade on grit is probably VS. At most. Apart from the boulderers, for the 3 days a year its 'in condition'. On UK trad lime it'll be HVS/E1 at least, and on UK lime sport it'll be F7a or above. Probably.
Those who go 'Ooooh the Grit is great' are mostly cowbell carrying Ron hill and red sock wearing beardy bumblies. Possibly.
Andy F
> Wash your mouth out, young man!
Why? Lets be honest, in the UK the average grade on grit is probably VS. At most. Apart from the boulderers, for the 3 days a year its 'in condition'. On UK trad lime it'll be HVS/E1 at least, and on UK lime sport it'll be F7a or above. Probably.
Those who go 'Ooooh the Grit is great' are mostly cowbell carrying Ron hill and red sock wearing beardy bumblies. Possibly.
Andy F
Post edited at 20:05
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In reply to andy farnell:
Exactly! All of that ironmongery acts as a handicap. Add one grade per size 11 hex and one grade per Stanage walk-in. Add an extra grade per inch of beer belly and two grades for every half an hour sat around drinking coffee and eating pork pies. Your average VS feels like E10.
Exactly! All of that ironmongery acts as a handicap. Add one grade per size 11 hex and one grade per Stanage walk-in. Add an extra grade per inch of beer belly and two grades for every half an hour sat around drinking coffee and eating pork pies. Your average VS feels like E10.
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In reply to Orgsm: More people on average climb harder on the lime. Climbing harder means you are a better climber and therefore having more fun. Bimbling up VDiff grit chimneys or yarding between slopey breaks isn't real climbing.
Quarried grit is alright, only because it occasionally feels like limestone.
Andy F
Quarried grit is alright, only because it occasionally feels like limestone.
Andy F
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In reply to andy farnell:
must be because the lime is easier
> More people on average climb harder on the lime.
>
>
must be because the lime is easier
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Maybe its because there are so many easy climbs on grit, but the nature of limestone (often steep and unrelenting with small hand and foot holds) means it mainly provides routes in the higher grades.
Andy F
> must be because the lime is easier
Maybe its because there are so many easy climbs on grit, but the nature of limestone (often steep and unrelenting with small hand and foot holds) means it mainly provides routes in the higher grades.
Andy F
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In reply to andy farnell:
Isn't it more a reflection of the lack of decent easy stuff on limestone. I could spend the next 10 minutes typing out a list of Grit Stone desperates but I don't have the time. Anyway what about all those other rock types which actually provide a good range of quality at all grade (Rhyolite, granite) surely your not going to claim they are inherently lower grade than limestone?
> More people on average climb harder on the lime. Climbing harder means you are a better climber and therefore having more fun. Bimbling up VDiff grit chimneys or yarding between slopey breaks isn't real climbing.
> Quarried grit is alright, only because it occasionally feels like limestone.
> Andy F
Isn't it more a reflection of the lack of decent easy stuff on limestone. I could spend the next 10 minutes typing out a list of Grit Stone desperates but I don't have the time. Anyway what about all those other rock types which actually provide a good range of quality at all grade (Rhyolite, granite) surely your not going to claim they are inherently lower grade than limestone?
In reply to andy farnell:
A friend (and fan of limestone) once described it as (and I paraphrase badly) 'find a hold, pull hard'. Limestone is also nasty, often loose stuff with boring horizontal bedding (in Portland at least) and horrible polish.
Igneous rocks (preferably fine-grained granite or look-a-likes) are the only true path to righteousness!
> Lets be honest, all limestone is harder and better than any scrittle at the same grade. Shitstone is conditions dependant bollocks.
> Andy F
A friend (and fan of limestone) once described it as (and I paraphrase badly) 'find a hold, pull hard'. Limestone is also nasty, often loose stuff with boring horizontal bedding (in Portland at least) and horrible polish.
Igneous rocks (preferably fine-grained granite or look-a-likes) are the only true path to righteousness!
In reply to andy farnell:
Hi Andy
Long time fan, first time caller. Here's my question: Out of your pathological hatreds of Franco Cookson and gritstone, which is more irrationally all-consuming?
Keep up the good work!
Hi Andy
Long time fan, first time caller. Here's my question: Out of your pathological hatreds of Franco Cookson and gritstone, which is more irrationally all-consuming?
Keep up the good work!
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
There also comes a point that you have to alter grades to reflect a major trend if routes are to be graded for the "average climber" and the average climber has become worse at jamming compared to non-jamming climbing or you could downgrade everything except jamming routes but I cant see that happening.
> This is the point I've been making for ages with regard to jamming. It's not that jamming has got any harder, or even the average climber has become worse at jamming, it's that climbing walls are helping people train more at other aspects - use of small, positive crimpy holds for example. And because climbing grades are all relative, if you improve at one aspect, climbs which focus on that aspect will appear easy for the grade, and those which don't, will seem hard for the grade.
There also comes a point that you have to alter grades to reflect a major trend if routes are to be graded for the "average climber" and the average climber has become worse at jamming compared to non-jamming climbing or you could downgrade everything except jamming routes but I cant see that happening.
Post edited at 10:44
In reply to andrewmcleod:
And hope the hold doesn't snap off......
> ....... 'find a hold, pull hard'. .........
And hope the hold doesn't snap off......
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In reply to andy farnell:
Limestone is for painters and decorators.
Gritstone is for artists.
> Lets be honest, all limestone is harder and better than any scrittle at the same grade. Shitstone is conditions dependant bollocks.
> Andy F
Limestone is for painters and decorators.
Gritstone is for artists.
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In reply to Valkyrie1968:
I don't hate Franco, I just don't understand where he gets his grades. I don't hate the grit, after all, anything is better than southern sandstone.
Andy F
> Hi Andy
> Long time fan, first time caller. Here's my question: Out of your pathological hatreds of Franco Cookson and gritstone, which is more irrationally all-consuming?
> Keep up the good work!
I don't hate Franco, I just don't understand where he gets his grades. I don't hate the grit, after all, anything is better than southern sandstone.
Andy F
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In reply to deacondeacon:
At first glance they look similar. I find Millstone to be harder, maybe it's nearer to vertical. Yarncliffe has quite a lot of small holds that you don't see until you are on them but they're really positive. I've not found the same at Millstone, maybe I just need to do more climbs there.
> Aren't yarncliffe and millstone a very similar style of climbing. Both being quarried grit, with similar 'just off vertical slabs?
At first glance they look similar. I find Millstone to be harder, maybe it's nearer to vertical. Yarncliffe has quite a lot of small holds that you don't see until you are on them but they're really positive. I've not found the same at Millstone, maybe I just need to do more climbs there.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Yep, I heard lime was overgraded. A lime E3 is about grit HVS.
> must be because the lime is easier
Yep, I heard lime was overgraded. A lime E3 is about grit HVS.
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In reply to tmawer:
Done two soft E4s and a few E3s and E2s on natural grit. Also done Regent Street E2 at millstone and no others I think. I'd probably disagree that quarried is easier, but it does have more protection. Thinking about the E1s I've done on quarried like the embankments and delectable direct I'd say they are harder than the likes of Stanage e1s
Done two soft E4s and a few E3s and E2s on natural grit. Also done Regent Street E2 at millstone and no others I think. I'd probably disagree that quarried is easier, but it does have more protection. Thinking about the E1s I've done on quarried like the embankments and delectable direct I'd say they are harder than the likes of Stanage e1s
In reply to tmawer:
That thing right of Master's Edge is on quarried grit.Most 'natural'grit has been quarried.
That thing right of Master's Edge is on quarried grit.Most 'natural'grit has been quarried.
In reply to paul mitchell:
Do you mean that most natural grit routes have been quarried of that most natural grit crags have quarried bits? For instance, I know that marble wall and Apparent North at Stanage was quarried and I could believe that via media bay was quarried a long time ago, but surely not any of the rounded slopey things around them. Surely not any of Bamford?
Do you mean that most natural grit routes have been quarried of that most natural grit crags have quarried bits? For instance, I know that marble wall and Apparent North at Stanage was quarried and I could believe that via media bay was quarried a long time ago, but surely not any of the rounded slopey things around them. Surely not any of Bamford?
In reply to paul mitchell:
I really doubt most natural grit has been quarried. For sure most of the well known natural crags have quarried sections but I doubt that's the majority.
You've got me thinking tho'
I really doubt most natural grit has been quarried. For sure most of the well known natural crags have quarried sections but I doubt that's the majority.
You've got me thinking tho'
Post edited at 10:36
In reply to tmawer:
Quarried grit often seems longer with more endurance based difficulty. Natural grit seems more bouldery and intense. If you train/climb indoors gaining a bit of endurance is fairly easy which might help with quarried grit routes, but is likely to have less benefit with natural grit.
I think natural grit would favour those who are naturally strong but don't train climb indoors much.
Quarried grit often seems longer with more endurance based difficulty. Natural grit seems more bouldery and intense. If you train/climb indoors gaining a bit of endurance is fairly easy which might help with quarried grit routes, but is likely to have less benefit with natural grit.
I think natural grit would favour those who are naturally strong but don't train climb indoors much.
In reply to stp:
I think I was ok at crimping and jamming,, and less good at smearing, using rounded holds, or being bold....all if which makes quarried grit somewhat more suited to me.
I think I was ok at crimping and jamming,, and less good at smearing, using rounded holds, or being bold....all if which makes quarried grit somewhat more suited to me.
In reply to Cake:
It's right next to the layby parking.
There's a really nice looking E5 but I've only looked at it, haven't climbed it.
It's right next to the layby parking.
There's a really nice looking E5 but I've only looked at it, haven't climbed it.
In reply to stp:
I'm consistently amazed by the opinion that training indoors doesn't help with outcrop grit. There are slopers indoors too, you know
I'm consistently amazed by the opinion that training indoors doesn't help with outcrop grit. There are slopers indoors too, you know
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