UKC

Hello UKC

Me and a few pals are heading up to Scotland for our annual winter trip in Feb 2016. We usually head to the West Highlands and sometimes further on to the Cairngorms. We're interested in bivvying out, well snow holing really, but have some queries to get the conversation going:

1. Are we likely to get the snow depth required in the West Highlands?
2. If so, is there somewhere particular this is more likely than not? Preferably close to the climbing so we can climb then sleep.
3. If not the West Highlands, any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance
Andy

In reply to AndyCook:

My advice would be - take a tent.

Snow holing seems like a great idea - until you actually do it. Unless its perfect, cold, dry conditions you will be damp, cold and miserable.

Certainly, that is my experience anyway.

In reply to AndyCook:

it's an interesting experience but not particularly practical. Snow holing and climbing gear will be very heavy. creag megy (sp) would be good option plenty snow in the window usually. the climbing needs good stable conditions though.

In reply to AndyCook:

Cairngorm is usually regarded as the best bet, if you search around here you might find find some coordinates of likely spots.

Even with conditions that look good, it can be hard to find a good spot as it depends on wind direction, if you want a hole big enough for 2 people you will need about 1.5-2m of snow depth.

It takes a long time to build a snow hole, especially if you haven't done it before, allow 2-3 hours of hard work. I wouldn't want to do that in the dark after a whole day of climbing, so when I have been snow holing it is a trip in it's own right, not as a quick spot to lie after a days climbing.

In reply to AndyCook:

There'll generally be big deep drifts anywhere in the highlands - and some of these will last all winter and beyond. But you'll have to look for them! Deep gullies in windswept place should be OK. But to spend a comfortable night you need to make sure you are above any freeze level. Otherwise you'll be wet, cold and damp.

They are much quieter than tents - absolutely no flapping and no noise. Once you are in shelter they can be further excavated and altered to suit your every need.

Apart from shovels - which need to be of solid metal (alli) construction and not plastic, and unless you can guarantee you'll only be digging into soft new(ish) snow you may also want to pack a longish saw to cut your way into older hidden snow that has maybe thawed and melted a few times - I';ve always found digging into this stuff almost impossible and back breaking hard work otherwise.

In reply to AndyCook:

I was told by an instructor not to snowhole is Scotland unless it was an emergency, temperature changes can make it either damp or at worst, dangerous.

I've done so twice, once for pleasure in Pyrenees and once in an emergency in Norway. It was foolish to be out without a tent in Norway and the effort of digging a "quinzee" in Spain was about ten times what it would have been to haul a large tent, firewood and someone to cook tea for me.

At the very least take a decent bivy bag and warm sleeping bag

In reply to mp3ferret:


My advice would be to snow hole! I never winter camp now as it is so miserable. Holes are just fantastic and back in the days when I was young and fit I used to do 5 day trips/4 nights out winter climbing. [I couldn't carry the food and fuel for longer trips as well as the lead rack etc]

Did trips like this on the Ben, Lochnagar, various places in the 'Gorms and Glen Coe. If you go really high [down hill walk to the start of the routes....bliss] you'll find something most winters between Jan and April.

I now make a point of holing every winter, usually on a ski tour now as I can't manage the big packs any more. But there is no doubt that it is the very best way to winter climb!!

Go for it and good on yer.

In reply to afghanidan:



Those who can, do. Those that can't instruct

In reply to AndyCook:
Creag Meagaidh offers good snowholing options around the window as mentioned previously, and you are much closer to the routes. i've snowholed several times in Scotland, mainly around the Cairngorms where I have found the cinditiions to be a bit more stable than over to the west.
If you are conscious of your layering when digging and don't get soaked in sweat, and use a bivvy bag to cover your sleeping bag, there is no reason whyh you shouldn't have a comfortable few nights. incredibly quiet compared to camping in a tent, much more spacious than bivvying and has a nice atmosphere when you are all inside with a brew going.
Don't forget a few candles whihc are really effective in the white!
At that time of year, you will probably find quite a few ready excavated holes which you just need to improve slightly. Much less effort, and take advantage of the hard work put in by the WML candidates.

In reply to AndyCook:

Snowholed near Torridon once. Great fun. Very comfortable. Would've been a nightmare with a little less snow. Plan to bivvy and snowhole if you can. Take a few tealight candle things. Good practice for if you ever NEED to snowhole.

Apologies for the slight hijack, but is snowholing something you would tend to try with an instructor or at least someone experienced? The suggestion of it has come up with my walking and skiing mates a couple of times, but none of us have any experience. Given there is a possibility of waking up under collapsed snow or dead from lack of ventilation, is reading up and watching a few videos good enough, or are there too many knacks that need picked up in person?

In reply to AndyCook:

Snowholes are pretty safe:- unless you dig one in the middle of some vast avalanche prone gully. or perhaps under the biggest cornice you can spot.

There is a risk - a small risk of the snow hole roof collapsing. But the normal practice is to mark the top of the snow hole with crossed walking poles/skis etc., etc., to prevent folk walking on the top of it. If you are on a steep/er slope this is unlikely to happen. A good foot or more of solid snow in a domed roof should support someone anyway.

Snow hole roofs don't collapse - in warm, thawing conditions they are more likely to start to sag. and sag, drip, melt and so on.

Don't forget snow is an excellent insulator. it isn't exactly easy to melt a snow hole even when a couple of you are using stoves.

Ventilation? Common practice is to keep a little bit of the entrance open during the night and/or stick an ice axe sized hole through the roof.

I've always made benches and seats inside once the main hole is done so you can sleep on - this stops your mates from standing on you during the night. It also keeps you away from the coldest layer of air.

As a real refinement you extend the hole and make a loo to avoid going outside.

If there are two of you it is a simple matter to dig two separate holes and once you are deep enough into the drift then both turn and dig towards each other. Then block one entrance up once you're through shovelling snow.

In reply to AndyCook:

A good shovel helps but a pan lid will do at a push. Make sure there is snow between you and the rock. Snow is a good insulator, rock less good. And don't forget to start low and dig upwards - push the snow out behind you rather than trying to lift it out. As with all bivvying, go for a five minute walk before getting into your bag - get warm before you get in and you'll stay warm. Get in cold and it won't be as good. Use a pack or two block doors. Give yourself plenty of time to dig. Enjoy.

Out of curiosity when is the earliest in the season you have a reliable chance of finding enough snow to snowhole? I was planning to head up around New Year for a bit of climbing but wasn't expecting there to be enough snow?

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Of course it varies year to year, I got one in 1985 in October, but it was of the emergency type as we didn't make the bothy...................
Normally New Year plus, and as late as June in cornice remains, probably later some years!!

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Two winters ago I made a snow hole in the Loch Avon basin in mid-December for the night. I would say it's never reliable but you can almost always find something.

If you want to make a snow hole then a probe is a big help (and a shovel too!) in making sure you are going to dig into something deep enough.

I would avoid the ones that are in the "usual" places because they are more likely to have been used as a public toilet.

In reply to AndyCook:

Hi everyone

I just wanted to say a massive thank you to everyone who responded to my pretty vague query. The response has generally been more positive than I expected if I'm honest! Some good food for thought.

Andy

In reply to AndyCook:

It's also worth knowing about the Snow White project run by the Cairngorm rangers at the ski station visitor centre.

http://www.cairngormmountain.org/conservation/

Basically pack in pack out - including your poop. Better than being one of those dirty bastards who shite in their ain snowholes.

In reply to AndyCook:

I did it once on a week's winter climbing course at Tulloch Mountaincraft. Nobody told us that in warm conditions we would get soaked digging the hole and I made the amateur error of getting into my sleeping bag with soaked britches thinking they would dry out. Instead my down bag turned into wet bog paper from the waist down and I had a miserable wet cold night under a wet dripping roof. My advice: only do it when the temperature is well below zero. Use a synthetic bag and a Goretex bivvy bag. Be prepared for 2-3 hours of hard, sweaty work. Make the ceiling as smooth as possible so that drips run down the sides.

In reply to Rigid Raider:

I've only ever used down sleeping bags, but a gortex bivvi is a must.
And yes, don't get in wet! With careful management 4 or 5 nights in a row should be perfectly feasible even in Scotland.

If I'm damp/sweaty I lie on top of my bag, steaming, and don't get in until I stop steaming. The fact that I'm now cold doesn't matter in a planned s/hole 'cos my next job is to cook a hot meal. I'd hedge my bets a bit in an emergency, letting most of the vapour steam off, but not getting too cold if I didn't have food/stove with me.

In reply to AndyCook:

Take a bivvy bag. I once made the mistake of using a down sleeping bag (sans bivvy) in a damp snowhole. Never again!