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Should burning waste in residential areas be legal?

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 SenzuBean 18 Nov 2015
Should it? Is there a need for it in this day and age?
People are compelled to recycle just about everything. Hazardous refuse should be taken to a refuse centre. And if you have garden waste, then you presumably have a garden - therefore you are quite capable of composting it.

Just bloody annoyed with a neighbor who insists on burning their refuse, which makes awful thick smoke that pools around a number of houses - all I can smell and will be able to smell for the next few hours is a burning smell. >_<
 jkarran 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

Call your council, they have people for dealing with this sort of thing. Better yet, speak to your neighbor about it first.
jk
OP SenzuBean 18 Nov 2015
In reply to jkarran:

> Call your council, they have people for dealing with this sort of thing. Better yet, speak to your neighbor about it first.

> jk

I've emailed the council before on other occasions (we were once all but trapped in the house due to the smoke, and I sent a furious email) - and they sent a letter. Doesn't seem to have done anything.

But this time, I'm thinking maybe I want to get involved in changing the law if it doesn't make sense - I don't want to be at the mercy of the council judging it a nuisance on their own accord.
I simply don't see a case for burning waste in a residential area at all - it's simply flytipping into the atmosphere - so would rather put energy into just making it illegal. It would tie in with with the newly announced coal phase out plan.
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 wbo 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean: What sort of waste ? I have a mountain of leaves to get rid of - they don't compost well, and are a mess to burn.

OP SenzuBean 18 Nov 2015
In reply to wbo:

> What sort of waste ? I have a mountain of leaves to get rid of - they don't compost well, and are a mess to burn.

Not sure - wall is too high to see over. It's probably mixed garden waste with accelerant. Whatever it is, it's extremely smoky.

Secondly are you sure leaves don't compost well? Leaves are highly prized and often collected by keen gardeners to make leaf mold: http://www.bbc.co.uk/gardening/basics/techniques/soil_makeleafmould1.shtml
 jkarran 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:
> I've emailed the council before on other occasions (we were once all but trapped in the house due to the smoke, and I sent a furious email) - and they sent a letter. Doesn't seem to have done anything.

Well perhaps try calling them less furiously. You might have to persevere a bit but they do have people and legislation for dealing with this sort of thing.

edit: Ah, when you said you were trapped by acrid smoke I envisaged someone burning old carpet and computer parts. Frankly I think you're over reacting to someone burning their hedge clippings but you might have a case if you're in a smokeless fuel zone. Again, your council is first port of call.

> I simply don't see a case for burning waste in a residential area at all - it's simply flytipping into the atmosphere - so would rather put energy into just making it illegal. It would tie in with with the newly announced coal phase out plan.

Well good luck with that.
jk
Post edited at 13:37
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 Webster 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

In short, yes.

if its just 'guarden waste' then presumably its non toxic and therefore no different to having a BBQ or fire pit in summer. its a dangerous precedent you suggest for banning burning stuff in your guarden!
1
XXXX 18 Nov 2015
In reply to Webster:

Burning garden waste in residential areas, speaking as an asthmatic, is antisocial f*ckwittery of the highest kind. Especially on windless summer evenings.

People for miles around have to shut their windows and stifle to death, washing has to be re washed, children have to come inside and everything stinks.

There is no earthly reason, in an age of green garden waste collections, free council run tips why you can't get rid of it. The only reason is laziness and some misguided sense of being back to nature.

I live in an air quality management area and still people see fit to light semi permanent bonfires of things they are to lazy or cheap to dispose of responsibly.

End rant
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OP SenzuBean 18 Nov 2015
In reply to Webster:
> In short, yes.

> if its just 'guarden waste' then presumably its non toxic and therefore no different to having a BBQ or fire pit in summer. its a dangerous precedent you suggest for banning burning stuff in your guarden!

I know, that's why I'm wondering what legitimate reasons are there to burn garden stuff. I'm thinking that a _start_ would be to ban the burning of things that aren't wood/leaves etc. As jkarran mentioned - it's legal to burn old carpets and computer parts! If you can't dump those into the local stream, then why are you allowed to "dump" them into the air?

Edit: not so fast. Smoke DEFINITELY IS TOXIC! Just because something is "natural" doesn't make it non-toxic. Burnt toast is carcinogenic, so will garden waste. For another fun counterexample - ricin is natural.
Post edited at 13:52
 wbo 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean: I'm inspired ti try composting again tho' there's a fair amount of pine needles mixed in.

Wet garden waste is a disaster to try and burn and way different to a BBQ/firepit



In reply to XXXX:


> There is no earthly reason, in an age of green garden waste collections, free council run tips why you can't get rid of it. The only reason is laziness and some misguided sense of being back to nature.

Except many councils are stopping free green waste collection.
XXXX 18 Nov 2015
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

I didn't say it was free. Composting definitely is.

I guess causing widespread health problems and ruining 100s of people's leisure time and quality of life is definitely worth the £35 per year saving from not paying the council to come and take it away.



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 jkarran 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:
> I know, that's why I'm wondering what legitimate reasons are there to burn garden stuff. I'm thinking that a _start_ would be to ban the burning of things that aren't wood/leaves etc. As jkarran mentioned - it's legal to burn old carpets and computer parts! If you can't dump those into the local stream, then why are you allowed to "dump" them into the air?

No it's not, in most urban areas this is covered by 1950s smog control legislation as is burning garden waste but it's patchy, my street is smokeless but the ones across the road aren't. There are almost certainly other laws which could be applied were the smoke noxious. A friend of mine spent several years enforcing these laws on behalf of Salford council. Call your council and ask what they can do if you really can't cope with it.

> Edit: not so fast. Smoke DEFINITELY IS TOXIC! Just because something is "natural" doesn't make it non-toxic. Burnt toast is carcinogenic, so will garden waste. For another fun counterexample - ricin is natural.

Erm... I'd avoid this line of reasoning when dealing with the council.
jk
Post edited at 15:33
 Brass Nipples 18 Nov 2015
In reply to XXXX:

> I didn't say it was free. Composting definitely is.

> I guess causing widespread health problems and ruining 100s of people's leisure time and quality of life is definitely worth the £35 per year saving from not paying the council to come and take it away.

No different than those who choose to drive around in a car causing far many health problems, early deaths, and ruining people's quality of life.
 jnymitch 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:
There is no specific law to stop a householder burning waste, there are laws concerning the nuisance it may cause and this is the route you will have to go down, in current times of budget cuts you may not get far without collecting the evidence yourself.
If it is a product from business and it is untreated wood, clippings and such then an exemption can be applied for and can be burnt. It is not legal for a business to burn wastes without exemption.

oh and its got to happen a lot to be classed as a nuisance. once or twice is not enough i think.
Post edited at 15:58
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In reply to XXXX:

> There is no earthly reason, in an age of green garden waste collections, free council run tips why you can't get rid of it. The only reason is laziness and some misguided sense of being back to nature.

I've been waiting 10 weeks now for the council to collect garden waste from me. Still no sign they are ever going to do it after several requests online and 3 phonecalls. I don't drive. So looks like I need to spend £100+ on a skip. Or I could burn it I suppose...
 jnymitch 18 Nov 2015
In reply to willworkforfoodjnr:

so long as you don't burn more than 10 tonnes in 24 hours its ok, get some foil and its spuds for tea.
XXXX 18 Nov 2015
In reply to Orgsm:

I've heard burning straw men is particularly noxious.
XXXX 18 Nov 2015
In reply to willworkforfoodjnr:

Compost it? Hippo bags are cheaper than skips if you really need to get rid of it.
Also - try freecycle or gumtree. It's amazing what people will come and get.
Or hire a shredder.
Or ask a neighbour?


1
 krikoman 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

It depends on how often it's happening, how big their garden is and yours I suppose.

Isn't it like someone having a party, it's not always great for you but you make allowances.

Wood ash is great for the garden so maybe they are doing it for a reason.

My mate makes his own charcoal, but lives in a rural area so not such an issue.

The best bet, as suggested above would be to have word, maybe then he could get what he wants at a time that might suit you.

It used to be after 7pm but things may have changed.
 krikoman 18 Nov 2015
In reply to XXXX:

> Compost it? Hippo bags are cheaper than skips if you really need to get rid of it.

> Also - try freecycle or gumtree. It's amazing what people will come and get.

> Or hire a shredder.
You get people complaining about the noise then!!!
 Philip 18 Nov 2015
In reply to krikoman:

I've given up burning garden waste (only perenial weeds, branches and bamboo that won't compost) after whining neighbours moaning about their asmatic son in a house a few 100m away. I say whiney because they have a dirty cat that shits in my veg bed and other people's garden. If there son is unhealthy its probably their poor hygene and their cat.

We've got 14 neighbouring houses to our garden, so I have to keep on good terms with some of them.

The local farmer takes anything away in a trailer now and has a f*ck off big bonfire.
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 Toccata 18 Nov 2015
In reply to XXXX:

> There is no earthly reason, in an age of green garden waste collections, free council run tips why you can't get rid of it. The only reason is laziness and some misguided sense of being back to nature.

Depends how big your garden is. I fill the green bin (emptied fortnightly) and two bulk bags (one to the council tip and one on the compost heap) every time I cut the lawn. That's every week and I can only fit one bulk bag in the car at a time. meaning it is three trips to the tip every fortnight, just on grass cuttings. 30 mile round trip.

So what do I do with the general garden rubbish that accumulates at a rate of about a bulk bag a week? I burn it.

I don't think I'm being lazy, just practical.

 MG 18 Nov 2015
In reply to XXXX:

Banning bonfires seems a bit extreme. They are fun and get rid of stuff that is much too big to go in a bin. Obviously sensitivity is needed - check no washing is out etc. - but the idea children can't go outside if there is a bonfire is nonsense.
1
XXXX 18 Nov 2015
In reply to Toccata:

Compost your grass cuttings. Or don't collect them. Just admit you like burning shit and couldn't care less about anyone else.

Or ask for another bin.
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XXXX 18 Nov 2015
In reply to MG:

No. They are not fun. They are massively irritating and unnecessary
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XXXX 18 Nov 2015
In reply to Philip:

Asthma is a potentially fatal respiratory condition that is not linked to cats or hygiene. You sound like a real nice guy.

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 MG 18 Nov 2015
In reply to XXXX:

> No. They are not fun.

All right you don't like them but many people do, especially children

They are massively irritating and unnecessary

They are no more irritating than many other things people do - noisy mowers, music, growing leylandii etc. And for anyone with a sizable garden they are necessary.

1
 Philip 18 Nov 2015
In reply to XXXX:

> Asthma is a potentially fatal respiratory condition that is not linked to cats or hygiene. You sound like a real nice guy.

I agree about the dangers but about the cats or hygene. Both are considered to set off asthma, in fact as many as 20% of suffers can be triggered by cats.

Some smoke from a far away bonfire on a cold night is not likely to be a risk , more so when their house has an open fire place as do the houses next to it. They were whingers.
 Philip 18 Nov 2015
In reply to XXXX:

> Compost your grass cuttings. Or don't collect them. Just admit you like burning shit and couldn't care less about anyone else.

> Or ask for another bin.

That's what I've done now. £30 one off fee and then they empty botgh every fortnight.
 Yanis Nayu 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

There is already a legal mechanism for dealing with problematic bonfires, as others have said. Banning them would be a disproportionate response.
 Alan M 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:
Nothing stopping you taking a section 82 action under the Environmental Protection Act 1990. If the Council can't prove a Statutory Nuisance and serve a s80 notice due to lack of evidence i.e unable to witness an event etc. You can take action direct at the magistrate court under section 82
Post edited at 19:09
OP SenzuBean 18 Nov 2015
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

You didn't read the rest of the thread then did you?

- The process is to the whim of the council (i.e. it's up to the council officer to decide what a reasonable person would qualify as a nuisance), which is far from ideal. It should just be not the done thing to light smoky fires that still stink 6 hours (and counting) after the fact...
- I didn't suggest blanket banning all bonfires beyond the first post which was designed to make people click (that is naughty on my behalf, apologies). On the contrary - I think fires are a great way to get children into the outdoors and to get them thinking about self-sufficiency, history and the environment. But the law ideally wouldn't be wishy-washy when it comes to fires - at least due to the environmental argument.
1
 Alan M 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:
> You didn't read the rest of the thread then did you?

> - The process is to the whim of the council (i.e. it's up to the council officer to decide what a reasonable person would qualify as a nuisance), which is far from ideal. It should just be not the done thing to light smoky fires that still stink 6 hours (and counting) after the fact...

That isn't technically correct only a court can decide if a nuisance has occured or is likey to occur. The council can serve an abatement notice if the officer is satisfied that a nuisance has occurred or is likely to occur but there is no legal requirement to prosecute. Remember Statutory Nuisance under the EPA 1990 is a criminal act so evidence has to be beyond reasonable doubt.

You can take action yourself under s82 of EPA 1990 on the balance of probabilities. You could try that?
Post edited at 19:23
 Yanis Nayu 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:
If you thought about it more widely, you might understand why it falls within the remit of statutory nuisance and is not subject to a blanket ban.
OP SenzuBean 18 Nov 2015
In reply to Alan M:

> That isn't technically correct only a court can decide if a nuisance has occured or is likey to occur. The council can serve an abatement notice if the officer is satisfied that a nuisance has occurred or is likely to occur but there is no legal requirement to prosecute. Remember Statutory Nuisance under the EPA 1990 is a criminal act so evidence has to be beyond reasonable doubt.

> You can take action yourself under s82 of EPA 1990 on the balance of probabilities. You could try that?

My point still stands that it's a discretionary offense. The fact that it's occasional and I don't die from it likely means it's not worth my time to pursue in court. And again the point (maybe I didn't state it clearly enough) is that I wondered if there's a need for the law to change - and if so then I'd rather put my energy into that, than just my own case. I have to wonder why the after-7pm fires law went away, it would probably suffice.
 Rob Parsons 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

If you want to attempt to sort out the current problem, the first thing to do is to speak to your neighbour.

> ... I wondered if there's a need for the law to change ...

If you want to put your energy into that, go ahead.

It really depends on what outcome(s) you're hoping for, and how much time and effort you're willing to put into it.

 Alan M 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:
The council will not serve an abatement notice on a single event or limited evidence. The person who the notice is served upon has 21 days to appeal the notice through the courts. Obviously if the court finds against the Council officers reasoning then what the Council thought was a nuisance was not meaning that your case is dead and buried unless there is a significant change or intensification in burning episodes etc.

The way to prove nuisance is to show unreasonable disturbance to your enjoyment of your property show that it isn't a one off event, show unreasonable impact etc. Read the common law definitions of nuisance (public and private) both have been incorporated in to s79 EPA 1990 (Statutory Nuisance). You can prove nuisance by documenting the events and the council will use them to support their decision if they serve a notice. The Council officer only actually needs to view one event of smoke nuisance to serve the abatement notice under 'nuisance likely to occur'. However they must witness an event where smoke is unreasonably impacting your property i.e blowing towards your house, just seeing smoke is not a nuisance. The law is clear burning events such as what you describe fall under the nuisance definition and not the definition of prejudicial to health. If the smoke is from a business then the law is different.

What 7PM law? There are by-laws that set restrictions but no restriction under the EPA 1990. It is the smoke that can be the nuisance, not the act of having the fire.

I mention section 82 as if the event is seriously affecting you and or your neighbourhood you and/or your neighbours can take action. You do not need the level of evidence the council needs to take action under section 80 of the EPA1990 as you will not be taking a criminal case. I look at it along the lines of you can't blanket ban/impose a national law on something like what you describe and in my opinion nuisance legislation is appropriate for this type of case.
Post edited at 19:58
OP SenzuBean 18 Nov 2015
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> If you want to attempt to sort out the current problem, the first thing to do is to speak to your neighbour.

> If you want to put your energy into that, go ahead.

> It really depends on what outcome(s) you're hoping for, and how much time and effort you're willing to put into it.

To be honest I'm not sure how that conversation would go. "Hi, I'm your neighbour. I don't know if you know this, but the large smoky fires you light at the back of your property, _right next to my house_, that burn for hours - are kind of a s(&^%y thing to do.".
OP SenzuBean 18 Nov 2015
In reply to Alan M:

> The council will not serve an abatement notice on a single event or limited evidence. The person who the notice is served upon has 21 days to appeal the notice through the courts. Obviously if the court finds against the Council officers reasoning then what the Council thought was a nuisance was not meaning that your case is dead and buried unless there is a significant change or intensification in burning episodes etc.

> The way to prove nuisance is to show unreasonable disturbance to your enjoyment of your property show that it isn't a one off event, show unreasonable impact etc. Read the common law definitions of nuisance (public and private) both have been incorporated in to s79 EPA 1990 (Statutory Nuisance). You can prove nuisance by documenting the events and the council will use them to support their decision if they serve a notice. The Council officer only actually needs to view one event of smoke nuisance to serve the abatement notice under 'nuisance likely to occur'. However they must witness an event where smoke is unreasonably impacting your property i.e blowing towards your house, just seeing smoke is not a nuisance. The law is clear burning events such as what you describe fall under the nuisance definition and not the definition of prejudicial to health. If the smoke is from a business then the law is different.

> What 7PM law? There are by-laws that set restrictions but no restriction under the EPA 1990. It is the smoke that can be the nuisance, not the act of having the fire.

> I mention section 82 as if the event is seriously affecting you and or your neighbourhood you and/or your neighbours can take action. You do not need the level of evidence the council needs to take action under section 80 of the EPA1990 as you will not be taking a criminal case. I look at it along the lines of you can't blanket ban/impose a national law on something like what you describe and in my opinion nuisance legislation is appropriate for this type of case.

Hmm, I guess I'll start documenting again. Thanks for the help.
 Rob Parsons 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

> To be honest I'm not sure how that conversation would go.

Talk to him/her like a normal human being. Don't be angry; just explain what you see as the problem.
Removed User 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

Have you tried to contact your local councillor? He/She may well be able to put pressure on the Council officials to investigate, especially if you can persuade other near neighbours to complain
 krikoman 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

> To be honest I'm not sure how that conversation would go. "Hi, I'm your neighbour. I don't know if you know this, but the large smoky fires you light at the back of your property, _right next to my house_, that burn for hours - are kind of a s(&^%y thing to do.".

Try this, "Hi, I'm <insert name here>, is there any chance you could have your fires later in the day, only my son has asthma and if the winds in the wrong direction it can set his cough off."
 marsbar 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

I like a nice fire occasionally. I don't do it when people have their washing out, or if the windows are open.
Personally I think you are over reacting.
 jnymitch 18 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

I think my allotment rules are quite good, fires can only be on the 1st Wednesday of the month and you have to be with it until it goes out.
aultguish 19 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

No fires after 7pm would be a terrible loss to society. How on earth would we get rid of Witches and Frankenstein??

'Microwave the Witch!'
It just doesn't have the same appeal
OP SenzuBean 19 Nov 2015
In reply to marsbar:

> I like a nice fire occasionally. I don't do it when people have their washing out, or if the windows are open.

> Personally I think you are over reacting.

Do you go around the neighborhood and check everyone's windows are tightly sealed? In my case there are some tiny gaps in the house I've yet to seal (it was originally built as a stable) that let the smoke in. In fact I was still smelling a pungent burning smell as I was falling asleep at midnight yesterday. That's literally 12 hours of smelling something disgusting in my own house for the entire day, despite having the windows closed. I don't think it's fair to say that's an over-reaction. Again, there's a difference between an efficient roaring wood fire that burns itself out in 2 hours, and a smouldering heap of presumably green leaves that could smoke out the most hardy guerilla.
1
 krikoman 19 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

> In fact I was still smelling a pungent burning smell as I was falling asleep at midnight yesterday.

that was probably your pillow, from your fuming head

 marsbar 20 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

I'm not suggesting being annoyed with your neighbours is an over reaction, although talking to them might help more than complaints on here. I'm suggesting that making fires illegal is an over reaction.
Rigid Raider 20 Nov 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

Burning green stuff especially leaves does create a pungent smoke, which irritates some but reminds others of Autumn. I would absolutely defend my right to have a bonfire but I only burn dry wood - old garden fence panels for example - which doesn't create much smoke and with a high combustion temperature sends the fumes hgh into the air anyway. I wouldn't leave a fire of green material smouldering with cool smoke that hangs around at a low level, that is antisocial.

What was antisocial and unacceptable was when we lived in a decent district and a violent drug dealer moved in next door and started having big fires twice a week where he burned plastic (we thought probably drug packaging) household waste and tarred felt from the roof of a big shed he was taking down. It was spring and his huge fires burned a hole right up through the canopy of chestnut trees in his garden. He had three dogs that whined and barked all night and the back garden became a stinking mess of mud with dog crap that never dried out because it was under the trees.

Since he had just finished a 10 year stretch for robbery with violence we didn't tackle him and moved house, fast. The house was re-sold three times in the next four years,
In reply to Rigid Raider:

Dude, your situation is the stuff of nightmares. Glad you managed to sell the house.
 veteye 20 Nov 2015
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

The buyers weren't

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