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The wall I frequent in Milton Keynes has several many routes that are labeled the same grade, say 6a, but which feel quite different from each other. Also they feel different to me at 5' 7" then they do to my parner at 5'4".
What I'd like to know is how are the grades set? Given the number of factors that need taking into account (or would do if it were real climibg on rock), does sombody decide in advance to set up a 6b and then put the holds where they think they should go to make it that grade or do they put some holds in difficult places (that only they can just reach!) and then get sombody esle to assess what grade they think it is?
(I understand the grading system, just interested in how the routes are set up.)
Post edited at 18:26
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In reply to doc_h:
I think as well as the general erraticness of grades below 6a, height is possibly more of a factor for easy routes. Harder routes tend to be dynamic moves from hold to hold - if you are shorter you just need to be a bit more dynamic! Easier routes are often step up on hold, stretch upwards to next hold, step up on next hold - if you are too short to statically do the moves then you are often basically reduced to jumping, which can make the problem much harder than for a taller person.
I am 5' 7" and generally don't have problems with easier routes and reach, but only just - climbers who are 5' 5" or less often find the 'easy' routes really hard because there is a hold they can't quite reach - or more often a series of holds they can't quite reach. This is partly bad setting though (from a particular routesetter of a similar height to me I think).
I think as well as the general erraticness of grades below 6a, height is possibly more of a factor for easy routes. Harder routes tend to be dynamic moves from hold to hold - if you are shorter you just need to be a bit more dynamic! Easier routes are often step up on hold, stretch upwards to next hold, step up on next hold - if you are too short to statically do the moves then you are often basically reduced to jumping, which can make the problem much harder than for a taller person.
I am 5' 7" and generally don't have problems with easier routes and reach, but only just - climbers who are 5' 5" or less often find the 'easy' routes really hard because there is a hold they can't quite reach - or more often a series of holds they can't quite reach. This is partly bad setting though (from a particular routesetter of a similar height to me I think).
Post edited at 20:02
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In reply to doc_h:
At our wall routes are set, everybody has a winge, then a very loose consensus is arrived at in which everyone is roughly equally unhappy....sorted!
At our wall routes are set, everybody has a winge, then a very loose consensus is arrived at in which everyone is roughly equally unhappy....sorted!
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In reply to doc_h:
I think harder routes may also need a bit more technical ability as well, I've seen plenty of higher grade routes present many different problems to climbers ranging from the need for some dynamic moves, the need for some tricky positioning in order to progress or moves that don't help with arms and fingers getting fatigued, overhangs, to the holds themselves. How you mix different elements up can make the route. I know some routes that present a challenge because of the variety of challenges and you have to be a well rounded climber to do well at them because they don't just consist of one or two hold types or they throw in a difficult hold where really you are there wishing you had something with a little more purchase.
I think harder routes may also need a bit more technical ability as well, I've seen plenty of higher grade routes present many different problems to climbers ranging from the need for some dynamic moves, the need for some tricky positioning in order to progress or moves that don't help with arms and fingers getting fatigued, overhangs, to the holds themselves. How you mix different elements up can make the route. I know some routes that present a challenge because of the variety of challenges and you have to be a well rounded climber to do well at them because they don't just consist of one or two hold types or they throw in a difficult hold where really you are there wishing you had something with a little more purchase.
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In reply to doc_h:
As a general answer. It's just based on the experience of a setter. Which tends to be more accurate at around their climbing grade.
I.e. a setter who climbs 8a is understandablly more likely to get the grade slightly wrong when setting a 6a than a setter who climbs 7a.
Grade is dictated by what colours are either side (so you can't set a red next to a red), so you may only have 6 colours with which to set 6 routes.
If they're all jugs, you'll likely not be setting any 7cs. Equally if they're all tiny crimps/slopers, you'll not be setting 5+s.
Then from experience you'll judge, 'i'll probably get a 6b from these'. Then after setting, it may be more like a 6a+, or a 6b+ depending how it goes.
Though quite often someone will find a route harder or easier, depending on the style of route. Dynamic/static/powerful/technical etc.
As a setter at 5'6 I frequently get complaints that my routes are too reachy. Where another setter at the same wall, and at the same grade doesn't.
As a general answer. It's just based on the experience of a setter. Which tends to be more accurate at around their climbing grade.
I.e. a setter who climbs 8a is understandablly more likely to get the grade slightly wrong when setting a 6a than a setter who climbs 7a.
Grade is dictated by what colours are either side (so you can't set a red next to a red), so you may only have 6 colours with which to set 6 routes.
If they're all jugs, you'll likely not be setting any 7cs. Equally if they're all tiny crimps/slopers, you'll not be setting 5+s.
Then from experience you'll judge, 'i'll probably get a 6b from these'. Then after setting, it may be more like a 6a+, or a 6b+ depending how it goes.
Though quite often someone will find a route harder or easier, depending on the style of route. Dynamic/static/powerful/technical etc.
As a setter at 5'6 I frequently get complaints that my routes are too reachy. Where another setter at the same wall, and at the same grade doesn't.
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In reply to doc_h:
This intrigues me also - if any route setters are out there I would like to know what comes first - the route or the grade?
Also do you set a move at a time or the whole route then tweak holds to adjust to the grade?
> What I'd like to know is how are the grades set? .... does somebody decide in advance to set up a 6b and then put the holds where they think they should go to make it that grade or do they put some holds in difficult places ....... and then get somebody else to assess what grade they think it is?
This intrigues me also - if any route setters are out there I would like to know what comes first - the route or the grade?
Also do you set a move at a time or the whole route then tweak holds to adjust to the grade?
In reply to keith-ratcliffe:
At our wall we try to have a spread of grades and so start off with a grade in mind that fits the overall plan, however it's difficult to be accurate and so a planned 6a may become harder or easier depending on the holds carried up. We are volunteer route setters at our wall with some taller and some shorter setters and create quite a mix of routes.
At our wall we try to have a spread of grades and so start off with a grade in mind that fits the overall plan, however it's difficult to be accurate and so a planned 6a may become harder or easier depending on the holds carried up. We are volunteer route setters at our wall with some taller and some shorter setters and create quite a mix of routes.
In reply to doc_h:
I think most walls are fairly random below 6a, ie. up to 5+. Probably because the setter doesn't climb those grades. (The worst setters don't put much thought into these routes, go for a general size of hold, and grade based on hold surface area.)
I think most walls are fairly random below 6a, ie. up to 5+. Probably because the setter doesn't climb those grades. (The worst setters don't put much thought into these routes, go for a general size of hold, and grade based on hold surface area.)
In reply to doc_h:
Isn't your real question the validity of the grade? And the answer is - it may not be valid!
Two examples from a (very well known wall) I used to frequent some years ago.
A 6b which was top-end 7a. Not just my opinion but that of several others (with about 200 years of climbing experience between us!)
A 6c traverse which was... well, a mite taxing and took some effort for success. I asked one of the staff/setters about it. His reply? "Oh, it's really 7b+. No-one's done it yet. I don't know what X was thinking. She could only do the first five moves." Yet it was still marked as 6c. A fair few egos must have been deflated. Luckily, I can't afford much of an ego these days!
So, when you see a grade on a wall, it might simply be wrong...
Mick
> What I'd like to know is how are the grades set?
Isn't your real question the validity of the grade? And the answer is - it may not be valid!
Two examples from a (very well known wall) I used to frequent some years ago.
A 6b which was top-end 7a. Not just my opinion but that of several others (with about 200 years of climbing experience between us!)
A 6c traverse which was... well, a mite taxing and took some effort for success. I asked one of the staff/setters about it. His reply? "Oh, it's really 7b+. No-one's done it yet. I don't know what X was thinking. She could only do the first five moves." Yet it was still marked as 6c. A fair few egos must have been deflated. Luckily, I can't afford much of an ego these days!
So, when you see a grade on a wall, it might simply be wrong...
Mick
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In reply to doc_h:
In real climbing on real rock there is almost always a nubbin or a slot that can be used extra to the obvious holds, that is why some wall climbers can climb 7a on the wall but struggle on a HVS outside.
In real climbing on real rock there is almost always a nubbin or a slot that can be used extra to the obvious holds, that is why some wall climbers can climb 7a on the wall but struggle on a HVS outside.
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In reply to doc_h:
I think they know roughly what they are aiming to set, but then do the precise grade after climbing it.
Big Rock's grading is a bit all over the place, I agree. They seem to find it particularly difficult to get grades on the feature wall to be representative of the rest of the wall.
I think they know roughly what they are aiming to set, but then do the precise grade after climbing it.
Big Rock's grading is a bit all over the place, I agree. They seem to find it particularly difficult to get grades on the feature wall to be representative of the rest of the wall.
In reply to doc_h:
Interesting question.
My 8yr old daughter lead climbs at about 6a-6c roped quite happily at our local wall (Penrith). This wall seems to be set by local mountaineering club and as such doesn't seem to be trying to attract the numbers other walls do. I believe the climbers set the walls as their own challeneges and do not soften the grades. We also climb at Kendal which again if it says 6c, usually means it is.
We have been on the regional training programme recently so have been to quite a few walls like Red Goat, Huddersfield, Leeds amongst others. The most recent trip was to Huddersfield which I really enjoyed. Excellent facility and lovely staff. But as soon as I saw the wall, their 6a's were really really easy. To the point where there was a 7a I was keen for my daughter to try but unfortunately she was just to drained. Her team mate who climbs at same level went ahead and bagged his first 7a
I mentioned this to the manager and he said that they intentionally set them on the easier side of the grades as it encourages climbers to come back and keep upping their grades. Fair enough but it must be a big shock when they go to other walls. Once again, the actual wall and the climbing were one of the best we have found so it wasn't detrimental.
I dont have any issue with grades, because my daughter is small and light, its better to look at the moves involved in a climb rather than the grade. I have seen her struggle on a 5a which has a huge move on it and then run up a 6c which relied on small pinches and overhangs.
Interesting question.
My 8yr old daughter lead climbs at about 6a-6c roped quite happily at our local wall (Penrith). This wall seems to be set by local mountaineering club and as such doesn't seem to be trying to attract the numbers other walls do. I believe the climbers set the walls as their own challeneges and do not soften the grades. We also climb at Kendal which again if it says 6c, usually means it is.
We have been on the regional training programme recently so have been to quite a few walls like Red Goat, Huddersfield, Leeds amongst others. The most recent trip was to Huddersfield which I really enjoyed. Excellent facility and lovely staff. But as soon as I saw the wall, their 6a's were really really easy. To the point where there was a 7a I was keen for my daughter to try but unfortunately she was just to drained. Her team mate who climbs at same level went ahead and bagged his first 7a
I mentioned this to the manager and he said that they intentionally set them on the easier side of the grades as it encourages climbers to come back and keep upping their grades. Fair enough but it must be a big shock when they go to other walls. Once again, the actual wall and the climbing were one of the best we have found so it wasn't detrimental.
I dont have any issue with grades, because my daughter is small and light, its better to look at the moves involved in a climb rather than the grade. I have seen her struggle on a 5a which has a huge move on it and then run up a 6c which relied on small pinches and overhangs.
Post edited at 13:18
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In reply to doc_h:
most walls set route circuits within bands of grade, they sometimes then note if they are high in the banding or low, or perhaps roughly middle. I guess this covers ar$e and gives them a get out clause because as has been said everybody has different body shapes and strengths and weaknesses. But I'd use them as a guide only, a rough finger in the air. Use them very generally to judge how your doing.
most walls set route circuits within bands of grade, they sometimes then note if they are high in the banding or low, or perhaps roughly middle. I guess this covers ar$e and gives them a get out clause because as has been said everybody has different body shapes and strengths and weaknesses. But I'd use them as a guide only, a rough finger in the air. Use them very generally to judge how your doing.
Post edited at 15:53
In reply to doc_h:
At my local wall the setters set routes aiming for a certain grade. There is a new routes board and the setter marks it with their suggested grade and then the first ten climbers who complete the route mark what grade they think. At the end, a consensus grade is then given by staff and this is marked onto the route's line board. Usually it's a fair reflection of what the majority of climbers would think, but can still be wrong .
At my local wall the setters set routes aiming for a certain grade. There is a new routes board and the setter marks it with their suggested grade and then the first ten climbers who complete the route mark what grade they think. At the end, a consensus grade is then given by staff and this is marked onto the route's line board. Usually it's a fair reflection of what the majority of climbers would think, but can still be wrong .
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In reply to Mick Ward:
No not really, I don't mind what route I climb on an indoor training wall so long as it feels good and is at the top end of my ability so I can get better. Accordingly, what grade it's been assigned doesn't really matter either (except as a rough guide) as it won't translate to the 'real' climbing I do on rock. No my question really was, as keith-ratcliffe said, which comes first, the grade or the route? On real rock its obvious, the route is there and somebody grades it but when you start with a blank wall....?
Interesting replies for everyone though, thank you, especially to the route setters who replied. Now if Rick from Big Rock could chime in that would get it from the horse's mouth!
> Isn't your real question the validity of the grade? And the answer is - it may not be valid!
No not really, I don't mind what route I climb on an indoor training wall so long as it feels good and is at the top end of my ability so I can get better. Accordingly, what grade it's been assigned doesn't really matter either (except as a rough guide) as it won't translate to the 'real' climbing I do on rock. No my question really was, as keith-ratcliffe said, which comes first, the grade or the route? On real rock its obvious, the route is there and somebody grades it but when you start with a blank wall....?
Interesting replies for everyone though, thank you, especially to the route setters who replied. Now if Rick from Big Rock could chime in that would get it from the horse's mouth!
In reply to Climbing Pieman:
I stormed (slight exaggeration ) up to the desk at awesome asking who DW or something similar was and suggesting they must be at least 6foot five as i couldn't do any of their routes clean. Turned out DW was 5foot and a bit and i was just crap.
I stormed (slight exaggeration ) up to the desk at awesome asking who DW or something similar was and suggesting they must be at least 6foot five as i couldn't do any of their routes clean. Turned out DW was 5foot and a bit and i was just crap.
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In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
I stormed (slight exaggeration ) up to the desk at awesome asking who DW or something similar was and suggesting they must be at least 6foot five as i couldn't do any of their routes clean. Turned out DW was 5foot and a bit and i was just crap.
Perhaps DW couldn't climb the routes clean either.
I stormed (slight exaggeration ) up to the desk at awesome asking who DW or something similar was and suggesting they must be at least 6foot five as i couldn't do any of their routes clean. Turned out DW was 5foot and a bit and i was just crap.
Perhaps DW couldn't climb the routes clean either.
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
Small route setters set routes which lead to long reaches for people of average or taller stature. We have this at our wall and it seems to be that the footholds they place are in an awkward position for taller climbers, meaning poor features for feet and stiff/long pulls are often needed. Great delight is then taken by them as they take their revenge for those routes which they struggle on!
Small route setters set routes which lead to long reaches for people of average or taller stature. We have this at our wall and it seems to be that the footholds they place are in an awkward position for taller climbers, meaning poor features for feet and stiff/long pulls are often needed. Great delight is then taken by them as they take their revenge for those routes which they struggle on!
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In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
or the actual height of DW wasnt all that relevant because routes get set while sitting on a rope using ascenders???? The setter has not neccesarily done all the moves themselves.
or the actual height of DW wasnt all that relevant because routes get set while sitting on a rope using ascenders???? The setter has not neccesarily done all the moves themselves.
Post edited at 09:00
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In reply to pebbles:
As I noted earlier:
"Oh, it's really 7b+. No-one's done it yet. I don't know what X was thinking. She could only do the first five moves."
Mick
As I noted earlier:
"Oh, it's really 7b+. No-one's done it yet. I don't know what X was thinking. She could only do the first five moves."
Mick
In reply to doc_h:
I've seen a lot of variation in grades between walls. Even more pronounced is the variation between routes inside and out - with, grades also differing between areas outside.
Part of this, I'm sure, is that individual climbers have different strengths and weaknesses, and different styles. Likewise routesetters. Also, you get used to certain kinds of hold and move. E.g. climbing somewhere where they've grippy paint on their boards, or features, versus somewhere with smooth plywood; similarly, moving from limestone to grit, or doing a "very trad" chimney from the early C20, originally done in big boots, versus a face climb established in the 1990s. I'm also used to a fairly clean gym; when I go to an indoor wall that's filthy, and the crimps are covered in black slime, that makes a difference - though I try to think of it as training for green grit and greasy rock .
I think sometimes you need to acclimatise, and you tend to learn something when you meet with these disparities. But, I think the best thing is to get to a point where you can set your own aims and challenges, understanding the route and your abilities and weaknesses (which does not = height), and being content with a good climb, even if it's "a grade lower" than "what you usually climb". Conversely, the worst thing is blaming the routesetter, who, despite their mountain of qualifications, is often being paid minimum wage to take our whining in between kiddies parties...
Also, it all becomes irrelevant when you get outside and realise that there's no way you're going to turn a heelhook into a high rockover, on a matched crimp, well above your last piece of gear/boulder mat. Whatever you can do inside, climbing outside's pretty mental (in one sense or another).
My 2c.
I've seen a lot of variation in grades between walls. Even more pronounced is the variation between routes inside and out - with, grades also differing between areas outside.
Part of this, I'm sure, is that individual climbers have different strengths and weaknesses, and different styles. Likewise routesetters. Also, you get used to certain kinds of hold and move. E.g. climbing somewhere where they've grippy paint on their boards, or features, versus somewhere with smooth plywood; similarly, moving from limestone to grit, or doing a "very trad" chimney from the early C20, originally done in big boots, versus a face climb established in the 1990s. I'm also used to a fairly clean gym; when I go to an indoor wall that's filthy, and the crimps are covered in black slime, that makes a difference - though I try to think of it as training for green grit and greasy rock .
I think sometimes you need to acclimatise, and you tend to learn something when you meet with these disparities. But, I think the best thing is to get to a point where you can set your own aims and challenges, understanding the route and your abilities and weaknesses (which does not = height), and being content with a good climb, even if it's "a grade lower" than "what you usually climb". Conversely, the worst thing is blaming the routesetter, who, despite their mountain of qualifications, is often being paid minimum wage to take our whining in between kiddies parties...
Also, it all becomes irrelevant when you get outside and realise that there's no way you're going to turn a heelhook into a high rockover, on a matched crimp, well above your last piece of gear/boulder mat. Whatever you can do inside, climbing outside's pretty mental (in one sense or another).
My 2c.
Post edited at 14:25
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In reply to doc_h:
At my local wall the route setter gives a grade. Sometimes the staff then jump on the routes to check the grade and change it where needed. Sometimes they don't. If enough people moan about a grade then it usually gets changed. There's also a sheet of paper where people can suggest a different grade too.
Though it always seems to me people only moan about grades that are too hard and rarely, if ever, when a route's grade is too soft. So if the walls took too much notice of people the grades would always be going up.
Height of course will make a difference but this is true outdoors too. But with more featured rock this is less likely to happen. Smooth rock or unfeatured plywood walls make this far more likely.
At my local wall the route setter gives a grade. Sometimes the staff then jump on the routes to check the grade and change it where needed. Sometimes they don't. If enough people moan about a grade then it usually gets changed. There's also a sheet of paper where people can suggest a different grade too.
Though it always seems to me people only moan about grades that are too hard and rarely, if ever, when a route's grade is too soft. So if the walls took too much notice of people the grades would always be going up.
Height of course will make a difference but this is true outdoors too. But with more featured rock this is less likely to happen. Smooth rock or unfeatured plywood walls make this far more likely.
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