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I can't help but notice how language is being used in the current middle east news. 'Home grown' terrorists is a common phrase, which seems to suggest their 'host' country cultivated their views, and individuals being described as 'French jihadists', 'British jihadists' etc etc. It all feels a bit apologist to me.
Surely it would be more truthful to use a phrase like 'Afghan holding French citizenship', 'Somali holding British citizenship' and so on.
Surely it would be more truthful to use a phrase like 'Afghan holding French citizenship', 'Somali holding British citizenship' and so on.
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In reply to cragtaff:
Given that the media tend to report nationality, which is a legal status, and heritage, I.e. They, their parents or even their grandparent came from Algeria, Somalia, Pakistan or wherever, I am not sure what point you are making, except that in your view someone holding for example a British Passport isn't British if they weren't born here or their parents weren't born here. Which is clearly wrong!
Given that the media tend to report nationality, which is a legal status, and heritage, I.e. They, their parents or even their grandparent came from Algeria, Somalia, Pakistan or wherever, I am not sure what point you are making, except that in your view someone holding for example a British Passport isn't British if they weren't born here or their parents weren't born here. Which is clearly wrong!
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In reply to The New NickB:
They are British by technicality, in every other sense they are not. I did say they 'hold British citizenship', which is also correct.
Its the way the words are used to convey a meaning that might be dishonest I query.
They are British by technicality, in every other sense they are not. I did say they 'hold British citizenship', which is also correct.
Its the way the words are used to convey a meaning that might be dishonest I query.
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In reply to cragtaff:
Except for the Mail
"Abaooud, 24 and sporting a slight goatte beard and from Belguim, of Algerian descent where he lives in a modest 3 bedroom terrace in an upcoming area of Brussels, close to local schools where typical house prices are around e300,000 was shot dead yesterday. He was shot in the chest, getting blood all over his Superdry jacket and fashionable Steel and Jelly polo shirt.
Except for the Mail
"Abaooud, 24 and sporting a slight goatte beard and from Belguim, of Algerian descent where he lives in a modest 3 bedroom terrace in an upcoming area of Brussels, close to local schools where typical house prices are around e300,000 was shot dead yesterday. He was shot in the chest, getting blood all over his Superdry jacket and fashionable Steel and Jelly polo shirt.
Post edited at 11:49
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In reply to cragtaff:
Surely there's a difference between being born here (or in France or wherever) and gaining citizenship later in life?
Do you make that distinction, or do one or even two generations have to have been born here to make someone British in your view?
3 of my four grandparents were born in the UK (I think). That British enough for you?
Surely there's a difference between being born here (or in France or wherever) and gaining citizenship later in life?
Do you make that distinction, or do one or even two generations have to have been born here to make someone British in your view?
3 of my four grandparents were born in the UK (I think). That British enough for you?
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In reply to The New NickB:
It's not wrong, its just a different definition of British. One is a narrow legal definition and the other is a broader social/cultural one.
It seems to be that in the social/cultural sense 'British Jihadist' is pretty much a contradiction in terms because Jihad is alien to British and European culture and history. Jihadists don't want to be British they want to be in an Islamic State.
> I am not sure what point you are making, except that in your view someone holding for example a British Passport isn't British if they weren't born here or their parents weren't born here. Which is clearly wrong!
It's not wrong, its just a different definition of British. One is a narrow legal definition and the other is a broader social/cultural one.
It seems to be that in the social/cultural sense 'British Jihadist' is pretty much a contradiction in terms because Jihad is alien to British and European culture and history. Jihadists don't want to be British they want to be in an Islamic State.
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In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
You generally have to have a nationality, the above is probably true in every state in the world. Whether they want to be British, Somali, French, Algerian etc their nationality is what it says on their passport.
> It's not wrong, its just a different definition of British. One is a narrow legal definition and the other is a broader social/cultural one.
> It seems to be that in the social/cultural sense 'British Jihadist' is pretty much a contradiction in terms because Jihad is alien to British and European culture and history. Jihadists don't want to be British they want to be in an Islamic State.
You generally have to have a nationality, the above is probably true in every state in the world. Whether they want to be British, Somali, French, Algerian etc their nationality is what it says on their passport.
In reply to The New NickB:
By common usage it is, but it doesn't seem to fit with the origins of the terms. A nation can exist independent of a state and vice versa. Logically, the concept of nationality should not be synonymous with citizenship. In the context of a largely cultural phenomenon, it seems like a reasonable distinction to make.
> You generally have to have a nationality, the above is probably true in every state in the world. Whether they want to be British, Somali, French, Algerian etc their nationality is what it says on their passport.
By common usage it is, but it doesn't seem to fit with the origins of the terms. A nation can exist independent of a state and vice versa. Logically, the concept of nationality should not be synonymous with citizenship. In the context of a largely cultural phenomenon, it seems like a reasonable distinction to make.
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In reply to MarkJH:
Write a sentence to describe the nationality of an IS bomber born in Algeria, but living in Belgium with a Belgium passport.
> By common usage it is, but it doesn't seem to fit with the origins of the terms. A nation can exist independent of a state and vice versa. Logically, the concept of nationality should not be synonymous with citizenship. In the context of a largely cultural phenomenon, it seems like a reasonable distinction to make.
Write a sentence to describe the nationality of an IS bomber born in Algeria, but living in Belgium with a Belgium passport.
In reply to MarkJH:
Like it or not, there is more than one culture in this, and nearly every other, country.
> In the context of a largely cultural phenomenon, it seems like a reasonable distinction to make.
Like it or not, there is more than one culture in this, and nearly every other, country.
In reply to The New NickB:
How could I if it is not a legal status? Nationality (if aligned to national identity), almost by definition, would have to be largely, subjective.
I'm sure that if you asked them, they would say that their nationality was Islamic.
> Write a sentence to describe the nationality of an IS bomber born in Algeria, but living in Belgium with a Belgium passport.
How could I if it is not a legal status? Nationality (if aligned to national identity), almost by definition, would have to be largely, subjective.
I'm sure that if you asked them, they would say that their nationality was Islamic.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Indeed, that is kind of the point....
> Like it or not, there is more than one culture in this, and nearly every other, country.
Indeed, that is kind of the point....
In reply to MarkJH:
The OP refers to media reporting of nationality.
> How could I if it is not a legal status? Nationality (if aligned to national identity), almost by definition, would have to be largely, subjective.
> I'm sure that if you asked them, they would say that their nationality was Islamic.
The OP refers to media reporting of nationality.
In reply to cragtaff:
In answer to the question "PC or propaganda?", the answer is: neither. "British jihadist" is a factual description of a jihadist that was either born here or at least holds citizenship. Propaganda? Paranoia, more like.
In answer to the question "PC or propaganda?", the answer is: neither. "British jihadist" is a factual description of a jihadist that was either born here or at least holds citizenship. Propaganda? Paranoia, more like.
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
If you were born here you are British by legal definition.
If you come from another country and are given citizenship it is a label of convenience, rather like a ship having a flag of convenience, a country where it is registered.
Being British also (for me) requires embracing British social, cultural and ethical values, upholding those things which are the normative values of Britain.
If you were born here you are British by legal definition.
If you come from another country and are given citizenship it is a label of convenience, rather like a ship having a flag of convenience, a country where it is registered.
Being British also (for me) requires embracing British social, cultural and ethical values, upholding those things which are the normative values of Britain.
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In reply to cragtaff:
I see what you are saying but isnt there a bit of the "no true Scotsman" about your argument? Like it or not, quite a few terrorists are born in, brought up in Britain etc., and hold British passports.
I see what you are saying but isnt there a bit of the "no true Scotsman" about your argument? Like it or not, quite a few terrorists are born in, brought up in Britain etc., and hold British passports.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
No, clear off
> 3 of my four grandparents were born in the UK (I think). That British enough for you?
No, clear off
In reply to cragtaff:
'If you were born here you are British by legal definition'.............is nonsense. Its more about your parentage. For example, my wife is British but was born in Tanzania, and has a UK passport.
'If you were born here you are British by legal definition'.............is nonsense. Its more about your parentage. For example, my wife is British but was born in Tanzania, and has a UK passport.
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In reply to mick taylor:
Is it? Can you be born here and not at least have been legally British for part of your life?
> 'If you were born here you are British by legal definition'.............is nonsense.
Is it? Can you be born here and not at least have been legally British for part of your life?
In reply to mick taylor:
That isn't an example which illustrates it's nonsense to say you're British if you're born here.
Edit: Oh I get you, there's more than one legal definition.
I wouldn't say it's about your parentage though, as my life long half Indian friend's Mum was born in India, and he's as British* as anybody.
*Though I'd struggle to define what being British is when it comes to qualities.
> 'If you were born here you are British by legal definition'.............is nonsense. Its more about your parentage. For example, my wife is British but was born in Tanzania, and has a UK passport.
That isn't an example which illustrates it's nonsense to say you're British if you're born here.
Edit: Oh I get you, there's more than one legal definition.
I wouldn't say it's about your parentage though, as my life long half Indian friend's Mum was born in India, and he's as British* as anybody.
*Though I'd struggle to define what being British is when it comes to qualities.
Post edited at 16:19
In reply to MG:
Its complex, but the statement was incorrect. If you are born here you CAN be British, but it isn't an automatic thing. Stuff here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law#Registration_as_a_Bri...
Its complex, but the statement was incorrect. If you are born here you CAN be British, but it isn't an automatic thing. Stuff here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law#Registration_as_a_Bri...
In reply to Timmd:
'*Though I'd struggle to define what being British is when it comes to qualities'
Agreed. Ethics, qualities, values are all things I struggle with, especially when those people who seem to have the strongest views on what constitutes 'most British' have many values etc that none of my friends, family etc have.
'*Though I'd struggle to define what being British is when it comes to qualities'
Agreed. Ethics, qualities, values are all things I struggle with, especially when those people who seem to have the strongest views on what constitutes 'most British' have many values etc that none of my friends, family etc have.
In reply to cragtaff:
You've mixed up your nouns (naming words) and adjectives (describing words) here.
Afghan is an adjective to they would be an Afghan something, whereas if you were referring to their ethnicity you'd say Afghani.
You got Somali correct but didn't show your working, so that might be random good luck.
I think Afghani British might be best because we describe as (for example) White British not British White, although you can hold dual citizenship in some circs but White isn't a citizenship conferring State.
> Surely it would be more truthful to use a phrase like 'Afghan holding French citizenship', 'Somali holding British citizenship' and so on.
You've mixed up your nouns (naming words) and adjectives (describing words) here.
Afghan is an adjective to they would be an Afghan something, whereas if you were referring to their ethnicity you'd say Afghani.
You got Somali correct but didn't show your working, so that might be random good luck.
I think Afghani British might be best because we describe as (for example) White British not British White, although you can hold dual citizenship in some circs but White isn't a citizenship conferring State.
In reply to cragtaff:
Technical details aside, that's presumably enough to call someone British in a newspaper, isn't it, without being accused of "PC or propaganda". It's just true.
Well the government would disagree. A decade or so ago they started making everyone learn the rules of cricket and sing god save the queen etc to get their citizenship, as a way of "instilling British values". Laughable, yes...
So can you be a British Muslim or not, in your view? What about if you're white, born here, parents born here, but you're a total arsehole - or even a mad jihadi convert - are you British then? I think you need to give up on this idea of 'British Values' defining our nationality, because we don't share a set of values. I don't share my values with religious people, with racists, with Tories and countless other groups who are every bit as British as me.
> If you were born here you are British by legal definition.
Technical details aside, that's presumably enough to call someone British in a newspaper, isn't it, without being accused of "PC or propaganda". It's just true.
> If you come from another country and are given citizenship it is a label of convenience, rather like a ship having a flag of convenience, a country where it is registered.
Well the government would disagree. A decade or so ago they started making everyone learn the rules of cricket and sing god save the queen etc to get their citizenship, as a way of "instilling British values". Laughable, yes...
> Being British also (for me) requires embracing British social, cultural and ethical values, upholding those things which are the normative values of Britain.
So can you be a British Muslim or not, in your view? What about if you're white, born here, parents born here, but you're a total arsehole - or even a mad jihadi convert - are you British then? I think you need to give up on this idea of 'British Values' defining our nationality, because we don't share a set of values. I don't share my values with religious people, with racists, with Tories and countless other groups who are every bit as British as me.
Post edited at 16:46
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In reply to mick taylor:
Damn, I was hoping we could deport Cliff Richard back to India!
> 'If you were born here you are British by legal definition'.............is nonsense. Its more about your parentage. For example, my wife is British but was born in Tanzania, and has a UK passport.
Damn, I was hoping we could deport Cliff Richard back to India!
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