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Hey,
So obviously I know that half ropes are meant to be used in a pair when trad climbing etc, but if being used single as more of a scrambling/ abseiling/ alpine rope would a 9mm one still hold your weight if you did happen to take a sudden fall?
Thanks guys
So obviously I know that half ropes are meant to be used in a pair when trad climbing etc, but if being used single as more of a scrambling/ abseiling/ alpine rope would a 9mm one still hold your weight if you did happen to take a sudden fall?
Thanks guys
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In reply to mark s:
Not with an appropriate belay device they wouldn't.
> yeah but its the person belaying who would struggle a bit more
Not with an appropriate belay device they wouldn't.
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In reply to Toby Benson:
Half ropes are fully rated to take a factor 2 fall, no worries. On ice skinny ropes can be better as they stretch more and lower the peak force on what can be less solid gear than in rock.
The downsides are:
- they will take fewer factor 2 falls than a rope rated for single rope use.
- they will cut through more easily if run over a sharp edge.
- they would wear out more rapidly is used for repeated lower factor falls in sport climbing.
All ropes should be used with a belay device appropriate to the rope diameter.
In summary, no worries - and I have done exactly this many times.
Half ropes are fully rated to take a factor 2 fall, no worries. On ice skinny ropes can be better as they stretch more and lower the peak force on what can be less solid gear than in rock.
The downsides are:
- they will take fewer factor 2 falls than a rope rated for single rope use.
- they will cut through more easily if run over a sharp edge.
- they would wear out more rapidly is used for repeated lower factor falls in sport climbing.
All ropes should be used with a belay device appropriate to the rope diameter.
In summary, no worries - and I have done exactly this many times.
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In reply to JJL:
It's a bit more nuanced than that. The UIAA half rope test was specifically designed such that 5 falls (the minimum) was approximately equivalent to 1 fall in the existing single rope test which is a factor 1.77 fall. This 5:1 ratio is still roughly valid when looking at the specs for triple rated ropes.
Also, being pedantic, factor 2 falls are actually not the worst case. It is worse for the rope when some gear is actually in place.
Anyway, most half ropes SHOULD easily hold at least one massive fall. However with thinner ones nearer to the limits of the standard, it is not guaranteed that they will hold a second fall and it isn't even completely certain they'd hold one fall with a very, very heavy climber (>>80kg).
Not great advice.
First, not all half ropes are remotely equal. There is around a three fold spread in the number of test falls between some of the thinnest ropes compared to more substantial ones.
Second, not all climbers are remotely equal. Again there is probably a three fold spread between the weights of the lightest climbers compared to the heaviest.
I'd probably be happy leading relatively hard rock on something like a single 8.5mm Mammut Genesis (I weigh 60kg) but conversely I'd not be at all happy climbing the same rpute with a 110kg partner on something much thinner like a single 8.1mm Beal Iceline.
> Half ropes are fully rated to take a factor 2 fall, no worries.
It's a bit more nuanced than that. The UIAA half rope test was specifically designed such that 5 falls (the minimum) was approximately equivalent to 1 fall in the existing single rope test which is a factor 1.77 fall. This 5:1 ratio is still roughly valid when looking at the specs for triple rated ropes.
Also, being pedantic, factor 2 falls are actually not the worst case. It is worse for the rope when some gear is actually in place.
Anyway, most half ropes SHOULD easily hold at least one massive fall. However with thinner ones nearer to the limits of the standard, it is not guaranteed that they will hold a second fall and it isn't even completely certain they'd hold one fall with a very, very heavy climber (>>80kg).
> In summary, no worries - and I have done exactly this many times.
Not great advice.
First, not all half ropes are remotely equal. There is around a three fold spread in the number of test falls between some of the thinnest ropes compared to more substantial ones.
Second, not all climbers are remotely equal. Again there is probably a three fold spread between the weights of the lightest climbers compared to the heaviest.
I'd probably be happy leading relatively hard rock on something like a single 8.5mm Mammut Genesis (I weigh 60kg) but conversely I'd not be at all happy climbing the same rpute with a 110kg partner on something much thinner like a single 8.1mm Beal Iceline.
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In reply to Toby Benson:
If in good condition, almost certainly YES.
However it could get cut through if the rock is particularly sharp and even if survives and the belayer holds the fall it might not survive a second or third massive fall...
However if you asked the same thing about really thin half ropes (near 8mm or thinner), things become less certain especially with much heavier climbers, steeper terrain and some wear to the rope...
> would a 9mm one still hold your weight if you did happen to take a sudden fall?
If in good condition, almost certainly YES.
However it could get cut through if the rock is particularly sharp and even if survives and the belayer holds the fall it might not survive a second or third massive fall...
However if you asked the same thing about really thin half ropes (near 8mm or thinner), things become less certain especially with much heavier climbers, steeper terrain and some wear to the rope...
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
Hey! That's not that heavy - the average English man weighs 83kg, and Welsh 84kg!
> ...it isn't even completely certain they'd hold one fall with a very, very heavy climber (>>80kg).
Hey! That's not that heavy - the average English man weighs 83kg, and Welsh 84kg!
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In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
Ropes don't snap they get cut through, abraided or damaged by acid. There has never been a case of a modern climbing rope failing by another vector in the field.
http://theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/About_Ageing_of_Climbing_Ropes.pdf
I think the max falls stars are some what misleading. The test is with a fully static non slip belay loading the same rope section over an edge in successive falls. In the real world belay plates slip at a few kn, belayers move and absorb force, climbers bodies absorb force and exactly the same part of the rope doesn't get loaded over an edge repeatedly in a short time period with a factor 1.7 fall.
Ropes don't snap they get cut through, abraided or damaged by acid. There has never been a case of a modern climbing rope failing by another vector in the field.
http://theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/About_Ageing_of_Climbing_Ropes.pdf
I think the max falls stars are some what misleading. The test is with a fully static non slip belay loading the same rope section over an edge in successive falls. In the real world belay plates slip at a few kn, belayers move and absorb force, climbers bodies absorb force and exactly the same part of the rope doesn't get loaded over an edge repeatedly in a short time period with a factor 1.7 fall.
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In reply to humptydumpty:
But not (hopefully) the average climber.
> Hey! That's not that heavy - the average English man weighs 83kg, and Welsh 84kg!
But not (hopefully) the average climber.
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In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
I stand by my advice. With friction and other "give" in the system, especially for scrambling/abseiling/alpine that the OP is doing, this is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
I stand by my advice. With friction and other "give" in the system, especially for scrambling/abseiling/alpine that the OP is doing, this is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
In the real world, a slip on a scramble is unlikely to be felt by the belayer !
In the real world, a slip on a scramble is unlikely to be felt by the belayer !
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In reply to Toby Benson:
Its fine to use in cases where you don't see your self relying on it in the same way you would a single rope in technical pitched climbing. The risk here isn't really it snapping, its more that risk of the rope being cut through in some way. You have to remember its quite common in climbing falls for the majority / all of the fall to be arrested by one of a pair of ropes anyway and we don't see cases of these failing other than being cut through. I guess if you were falling repeatedly on to a single half rope you may see its energy absorption characteristics deplete at a faster rate than a single rope, to some extent permanently .
For scrambling, glacier and abseiling purposes generally a 9mm rope is ideal.
Its fine to use in cases where you don't see your self relying on it in the same way you would a single rope in technical pitched climbing. The risk here isn't really it snapping, its more that risk of the rope being cut through in some way. You have to remember its quite common in climbing falls for the majority / all of the fall to be arrested by one of a pair of ropes anyway and we don't see cases of these failing other than being cut through. I guess if you were falling repeatedly on to a single half rope you may see its energy absorption characteristics deplete at a faster rate than a single rope, to some extent permanently .
For scrambling, glacier and abseiling purposes generally a 9mm rope is ideal.
Post edited at 08:13
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In reply to BnB:
Would whoever disliked (x2) this post care to explain their logic. Using a bugette with 8.5mm ropes I've caught my 90kg partner on a number of occasions. The weight usually on a single strand. If anything, the extra stretch makes the catch softer.
> Not with an appropriate belay device they wouldn't.
Would whoever disliked (x2) this post care to explain their logic. Using a bugette with 8.5mm ropes I've caught my 90kg partner on a number of occasions. The weight usually on a single strand. If anything, the extra stretch makes the catch softer.
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In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
I don't think that's really true. The issue is ropes being cut, a half rope will hold a massive fall if it's not cut or abraded, there's no "should" about it. I don't think there's every been a case of a rope snapping in action, they don't really do that. If a rope takes a lot of falls it loses elasticity which reduces their effectiveness at absorbing energy raising the peak force on all parts of the system and the liklihook they'll rip gear or hurt like f*ck when it comes tight. They don't snap after a few falls.
To the OP it depends how likely you are to fall, there is a much bigger chance that in a scrambly situation with less gear, bigger fall potential and more sharp rock for the rope to go over that it will get damaged in a fall. If you're moving fast and light and are in the mind set of the rope is just an extra back up to not falling off, to protect short sections of technical ground or to have for abseiling (so you might as well use it elsewhere) then a half rope is a legitimate choice. If you're expecting to use it (i.e. fall) then you have to weigh up the risks involved in using a rope in a way it's not best suited for.
> Anyway, most half ropes SHOULD easily hold at least one massive fall. However with thinner ones nearer to the limits of the standard, it is not guaranteed that they will hold a second fall and it isn't even completely certain they'd hold one fall with a very, very heavy climber (>>80kg).
I don't think that's really true. The issue is ropes being cut, a half rope will hold a massive fall if it's not cut or abraded, there's no "should" about it. I don't think there's every been a case of a rope snapping in action, they don't really do that. If a rope takes a lot of falls it loses elasticity which reduces their effectiveness at absorbing energy raising the peak force on all parts of the system and the liklihook they'll rip gear or hurt like f*ck when it comes tight. They don't snap after a few falls.
To the OP it depends how likely you are to fall, there is a much bigger chance that in a scrambly situation with less gear, bigger fall potential and more sharp rock for the rope to go over that it will get damaged in a fall. If you're moving fast and light and are in the mind set of the rope is just an extra back up to not falling off, to protect short sections of technical ground or to have for abseiling (so you might as well use it elsewhere) then a half rope is a legitimate choice. If you're expecting to use it (i.e. fall) then you have to weigh up the risks involved in using a rope in a way it's not best suited for.
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In reply to Sharp:
You seem to be slightly missing my point. Half ropes are just not tested with regards to their ability to hold a 'worst case' fall. They are tested in a manner that is believed to be representative of a single massive fall but using higher reps and lower weights. As such, I feel 'should' is the correct term to use.
Completely agree.
I was also trying to emphasis that half ropes vary massively from those just passing the standard through to ones that would be fairly close to passing the single rope standard. Unlike what another poster implied, the test results for a half rope will have a fairly big influence over what it is or is not "best suited for".
> I don't think that's really true. The issue is ropes being cut, a half rope will hold a massive fall if it's not cut or abraded, there's no "should" about it.
You seem to be slightly missing my point. Half ropes are just not tested with regards to their ability to hold a 'worst case' fall. They are tested in a manner that is believed to be representative of a single massive fall but using higher reps and lower weights. As such, I feel 'should' is the correct term to use.
> If you're expecting to use it (i.e. fall) then you have to weigh up the risks involved in using a rope in a way it's not best suited for.
Completely agree.
I was also trying to emphasis that half ropes vary massively from those just passing the standard through to ones that would be fairly close to passing the single rope standard. Unlike what another poster implied, the test results for a half rope will have a fairly big influence over what it is or is not "best suited for".
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In reply to Toby Benson:
Yeah but they're easier to cut on sharp or abrasive rock and harder to control in an ordinary plate. Your call.
jk
> would a 9mm one still hold your weight if you did happen to take a sudden fall?
Yeah but they're easier to cut on sharp or abrasive rock and harder to control in an ordinary plate. Your call.
jk
In reply to Toby Benson:
I have lobbed onto a 8.5mm half pitched climbing its fine just don't make a habit of it. One thing to keep in mind is that rope stretch will be huge.
I have lobbed onto a 8.5mm half pitched climbing its fine just don't make a habit of it. One thing to keep in mind is that rope stretch will be huge.
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In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
Thats just not good enough. Your advice here is normally excellent but because of your wording in that post you imply a significant risk of a half rope snapping for a heavy climber with a big rack taking a FF2... that just doesn't happen. You're also very very rude to the average man by saying that as a climber they would be very very heavy.
Thats just not good enough. Your advice here is normally excellent but because of your wording in that post you imply a significant risk of a half rope snapping for a heavy climber with a big rack taking a FF2... that just doesn't happen. You're also very very rude to the average man by saying that as a climber they would be very very heavy.
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In reply to Toby Benson:
Risk assessment innit?
I've happily used single 9mm for scrambly routes with a bit of abbing when there are no sections that need to be pitched e.g. winter aonach eagach, and on alpine routes where the majority is long snow plodding.
For other routes where there is more pitching and/or greater likelihood of a higher FF fall, then maybe a single 9 is not appropriate - its your call.
FWIW I see Go Outdoors are doing Edelrid Perfect 8.3 in 50 or 60m at £60 and £70 respectively at the moment, with a further 10% discount available. I'm very much tempted by one of these for scrambly UK mountaineering and easy alpine routes.
N
Risk assessment innit?
I've happily used single 9mm for scrambly routes with a bit of abbing when there are no sections that need to be pitched e.g. winter aonach eagach, and on alpine routes where the majority is long snow plodding.
For other routes where there is more pitching and/or greater likelihood of a higher FF fall, then maybe a single 9 is not appropriate - its your call.
FWIW I see Go Outdoors are doing Edelrid Perfect 8.3 in 50 or 60m at £60 and £70 respectively at the moment, with a further 10% discount available. I'm very much tempted by one of these for scrambly UK mountaineering and easy alpine routes.
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In reply to cousin nick:
There is no risk assessment for ropes in good nick. Single 9mm are perfectly safe and are even designed specifically as such if double/triple rated. Ropes only snap in climbing if previously damaged or if run weighted over sharp edges or abrasive rock. Half ropes/thinner single ropes do wear out quicker if they take lots of big falls (they lose elasticity so they shock load the climber more, so should be retired from lead use)
There is no risk assessment for ropes in good nick. Single 9mm are perfectly safe and are even designed specifically as such if double/triple rated. Ropes only snap in climbing if previously damaged or if run weighted over sharp edges or abrasive rock. Half ropes/thinner single ropes do wear out quicker if they take lots of big falls (they lose elasticity so they shock load the climber more, so should be retired from lead use)
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
Blimey. If every climber heading out for a day's trad, alpine or scrambling stood on the scales I suspect that quite a lot would weigh more than 12st 8lb with rucksack, harness, rack etc and if you add in ice axe and crampons (as the OP suggested Alpine) its not that odd!
> But not (hopefully) the average climber.
Blimey. If every climber heading out for a day's trad, alpine or scrambling stood on the scales I suspect that quite a lot would weigh more than 12st 8lb with rucksack, harness, rack etc and if you add in ice axe and crampons (as the OP suggested Alpine) its not that odd!
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In reply to Toby Benson:
You can use a half as a single. It's just not really the done thing by the internet warriors. What i will say is the stretch is horrible when abbing on them and ascending even worse. Other than that. Use it and have fun.
You can use a half as a single. It's just not really the done thing by the internet warriors. What i will say is the stretch is horrible when abbing on them and ascending even worse. Other than that. Use it and have fun.
In reply to Offwidth:
Unless someone has ready access to a drop tower (or has more luck than I've had tracking down some relevant test data online), I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
For half ropes which only just meet the standard (e.g. hold 6 UIAA/CE test falls @55kg) I am just not particularly convinced they would even hold one test fall at elevated test weights in the range 100-120kg (equivalent to climbers weighing 110kg-132kg).
I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this but I don't think expressing these concerns is scaremongering or alarmist in the absence of any data to the contrary.
Unless someone has ready access to a drop tower (or has more luck than I've had tracking down some relevant test data online), I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
For half ropes which only just meet the standard (e.g. hold 6 UIAA/CE test falls @55kg) I am just not particularly convinced they would even hold one test fall at elevated test weights in the range 100-120kg (equivalent to climbers weighing 110kg-132kg).
I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this but I don't think expressing these concerns is scaremongering or alarmist in the absence of any data to the contrary.
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
FF2s are rare but not that rare. If the rest of the system didn't take some of the shock load rope snaps might be more common but when these ropes are used all the time and by some pretty heavy climbers with big racks with no record I know of a rope having snapped just from the shock load I fail to see the need for such dire warnings. Its obviously vital people avoid big FF values as much as they can and other gear has commonly snapped in such situations (eg clipping in a direct to sling at a belay point and climbing above it for another piece is really dangerous; old worn harnesses are dangerous; old sun bleached slings on rap points are lethal as they can snap under very low shock loads).
FF2s are rare but not that rare. If the rest of the system didn't take some of the shock load rope snaps might be more common but when these ropes are used all the time and by some pretty heavy climbers with big racks with no record I know of a rope having snapped just from the shock load I fail to see the need for such dire warnings. Its obviously vital people avoid big FF values as much as they can and other gear has commonly snapped in such situations (eg clipping in a direct to sling at a belay point and climbing above it for another piece is really dangerous; old worn harnesses are dangerous; old sun bleached slings on rap points are lethal as they can snap under very low shock loads).
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
I´m led to believe Jim Sterling of Sterling ropes did some full drop tests on half ropes to get ideas on the impact forces, whether any broke I don´t know. Maybe ask him.
There´s quite a lot of info on how the 55kg mass was derived and what happens when the mass is changed here:- http://outdoors.stackexchange.com/questions/1942/ideal-and-minimal-rope-dia...
Personally I find my 7.8´s scary but I have lead a route just on one strand, the chance that my belayer could impose much force on his end of the rope is zero anyway In the lab it might break but in the field there´s no chance, you´d probably hit the ground.
I´m led to believe Jim Sterling of Sterling ropes did some full drop tests on half ropes to get ideas on the impact forces, whether any broke I don´t know. Maybe ask him.
There´s quite a lot of info on how the 55kg mass was derived and what happens when the mass is changed here:- http://outdoors.stackexchange.com/questions/1942/ideal-and-minimal-rope-dia...
Personally I find my 7.8´s scary but I have lead a route just on one strand, the chance that my belayer could impose much force on his end of the rope is zero anyway In the lab it might break but in the field there´s no chance, you´d probably hit the ground.
In reply to jimtitt:
Interesting post.
The graph there suggests a 9 fall half rope should only just survive 1 UIAA fall with a 115 kg climber. Some of the super skinny ropes are actually weaker than that, beal ice line only gets 6 falls which would suggest that a single stand may not survive 1 UIAA fall with a 100kg climber (including all ice climbing gear etc)
In real circumstances a dynamic climbing rope has never just snapped as far as we know, still it shows how close to the limits these thin ropes are pushing things.
Interesting post.
The graph there suggests a 9 fall half rope should only just survive 1 UIAA fall with a 115 kg climber. Some of the super skinny ropes are actually weaker than that, beal ice line only gets 6 falls which would suggest that a single stand may not survive 1 UIAA fall with a 100kg climber (including all ice climbing gear etc)
In real circumstances a dynamic climbing rope has never just snapped as far as we know, still it shows how close to the limits these thin ropes are pushing things.
Post edited at 14:44
In reply to CurlyStevo:
There are two other major factors... the different energy absorption of the belay system with climbers and the state of the rope. UIAA test conditions are clearly too strict compared to real climbers falls of high FF. Even I've witnessed a couple of smallish FF2 falls from above hanging belays (one due to incompetance, the other bravery) so if the margins were that small we should be seeing deaths if we deal with big climbers with trad racks and old ropes.
There are two other major factors... the different energy absorption of the belay system with climbers and the state of the rope. UIAA test conditions are clearly too strict compared to real climbers falls of high FF. Even I've witnessed a couple of smallish FF2 falls from above hanging belays (one due to incompetance, the other bravery) so if the margins were that small we should be seeing deaths if we deal with big climbers with trad racks and old ropes.
Post edited at 15:11
In reply to Offwidth:
Sure but fall factors are only an approximation to the physics even if you were talking uiaa falls (of different lengths), it's not actually true a 20cm (insert what you like here) fall factor 1.7 fall will exert the same max forces on a rope / climber that a 120m one will.
Also if the force was really getting that high the rope would snap it would be slipping at the belay plate without regards to all the other other factors.
Sure but fall factors are only an approximation to the physics even if you were talking uiaa falls (of different lengths), it's not actually true a 20cm (insert what you like here) fall factor 1.7 fall will exert the same max forces on a rope / climber that a 120m one will.
Also if the force was really getting that high the rope would snap it would be slipping at the belay plate without regards to all the other other factors.
Post edited at 15:38
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Sorry, what I meant by small is a small proper fall, not a slump on the belay. Both roughly a few body lengths above the belay so over 20 feet on a vertical wall; ie at least as much as the 2.3m test (~15 foot fall?). When I talk to climbers about fall factors most are clueless so its lucky ropes don't snap that easily.
Sorry, what I meant by small is a small proper fall, not a slump on the belay. Both roughly a few body lengths above the belay so over 20 feet on a vertical wall; ie at least as much as the 2.3m test (~15 foot fall?). When I talk to climbers about fall factors most are clueless so its lucky ropes don't snap that easily.
In reply to jimtitt:
I had a quick look at that data online and I got the impression none broke.
Many thanks for the link. That was exactly the sort of thing I was trying to find.
At least it confirms that I'm not the only person saying that climber weight should be a major factor in rope choice.
The graphs also seem to back up my hypothesis that some half ropes would fail to hold a test fall with 100kg+ (which even if it has limited relevence to real life falls it is still thought provoking).
I'm sure you're correct. In a big fall, the large elongations involved are probably more of a real world issue.
I did find some test data on single ropes with weights higher than 80kg and elongations of 40+% were recorded alongside very high forces - http://itrsonline.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Weber-Hudson1999...
> I´m led to believe Jim Sterling of Sterling ropes did some full drop tests on half ropes to get ideas on the impact forces, whether any broke I don´t know. Maybe ask him.
I had a quick look at that data online and I got the impression none broke.
> There´s quite a lot of info on how the 55kg mass was derived and what happens when the mass is changed here:- http://outdoors.stackexchange.com/questions/1942/ideal-and-minimal-rope-dia...
Many thanks for the link. That was exactly the sort of thing I was trying to find.
At least it confirms that I'm not the only person saying that climber weight should be a major factor in rope choice.
The graphs also seem to back up my hypothesis that some half ropes would fail to hold a test fall with 100kg+ (which even if it has limited relevence to real life falls it is still thought provoking).
> Personally I find my 7.8´s scary but I have lead a route just on one strand, the chance that my belayer could impose much force on his end of the rope is zero anyway In the lab it might break but in the field there´s no chance, you´d probably hit the ground.
I'm sure you're correct. In a big fall, the large elongations involved are probably more of a real world issue.
I did find some test data on single ropes with weights higher than 80kg and elongations of 40+% were recorded alongside very high forces - http://itrsonline.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Weber-Hudson1999...
In reply to Offwidth:
and that belay devices limit the peak force so its almost impossible to snap them?
and that belay devices limit the peak force so its almost impossible to snap them?
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
It´s not the elongation that I´d think is of concern it is the highly probable failure of the belay device/belayer. I only know of one device capable of achievieving the impact forces produced by the UIAA test and that is using a thick single rope, the chances of producing substantial enough forces on a thin half rope appear to be impossible using any available belay device. The chances of actually reasonably stopping a substantial FF2 fall (without suffering rope burns or allowing an excessively long distance) with an appropriate rope is minimal so with a skinny most unlikely.
>
> I'm sure you're correct. In a big fall, the large elongations involved are probably more of a real world issue.
>
It´s not the elongation that I´d think is of concern it is the highly probable failure of the belay device/belayer. I only know of one device capable of achievieving the impact forces produced by the UIAA test and that is using a thick single rope, the chances of producing substantial enough forces on a thin half rope appear to be impossible using any available belay device. The chances of actually reasonably stopping a substantial FF2 fall (without suffering rope burns or allowing an excessively long distance) with an appropriate rope is minimal so with a skinny most unlikely.
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