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I caught the end of a discussion on the radio this morning talking about age and fitness / health etc. They mentioned that muscle wastage begins at 30 and the rate of wastage increases as we get older.
As I am well over that 30 threshold now (resigned sigh...) that raised a few questions in my mind relating specifically to climbing;
1. Who forgot to tell Ben Moons muscles that they are supposed to be wasting?
2. What have any other older climbers done to help slow down the ageing process and its affect on climbing?
3. I still try and climb and train like I did 25 years ago. Should I just grow old gracefully, don pipe and slippers and get a lawnmower and not get upset that I get tired more quickly and can't do what I used to?
No answers from the under 30's, in fact make that under 40's! You're all too young to understand!
Only tongue in cheek answers need apply.
Cheers,
TJB.
As I am well over that 30 threshold now (resigned sigh...) that raised a few questions in my mind relating specifically to climbing;
1. Who forgot to tell Ben Moons muscles that they are supposed to be wasting?
2. What have any other older climbers done to help slow down the ageing process and its affect on climbing?
3. I still try and climb and train like I did 25 years ago. Should I just grow old gracefully, don pipe and slippers and get a lawnmower and not get upset that I get tired more quickly and can't do what I used to?
No answers from the under 30's, in fact make that under 40's! You're all too young to understand!
Only tongue in cheek answers need apply.
Cheers,
TJB.
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In reply to Climber_Bill:
Simplistically, 'use it or lose it' most likely applies. I take great comfort from a Stevie Haston training article a while back aimed at the more mature athlete where he says that if you used to have it, you can probably get it back. I don't know what that idea is based on but there are plenty of examples to support it. Despite being on the wrong side of 50 (and recovering from a long term injury) I find that when I do find the motivation I can get a lot of fitness, muscle and shape back. It does take longer, but not so much that it seems futile.
Sorry, I only just noticed the tongue in cheek comment: yes, at 30 you are over the hill and no matter how many hours you spend sweating in the gym the only thing you have to look forward to is needing a mirror to see your own wee man. But look on the bright side, it'll soon be opening time
Simplistically, 'use it or lose it' most likely applies. I take great comfort from a Stevie Haston training article a while back aimed at the more mature athlete where he says that if you used to have it, you can probably get it back. I don't know what that idea is based on but there are plenty of examples to support it. Despite being on the wrong side of 50 (and recovering from a long term injury) I find that when I do find the motivation I can get a lot of fitness, muscle and shape back. It does take longer, but not so much that it seems futile.
Sorry, I only just noticed the tongue in cheek comment: yes, at 30 you are over the hill and no matter how many hours you spend sweating in the gym the only thing you have to look forward to is needing a mirror to see your own wee man. But look on the bright side, it'll soon be opening time
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In reply to Removed User:
Thanks for the serious reply as well as tongue in cheek, both good stuff .
Great profile pic. That's set to become my favourite climbing position.
Thanks for the serious reply as well as tongue in cheek, both good stuff .
Great profile pic. That's set to become my favourite climbing position.
In reply to Climber_Bill:
Similar age to you and if anything muscles have gotten a bit bigger recently. Sadly, so has the midriff.
Similar age to you and if anything muscles have gotten a bit bigger recently. Sadly, so has the midriff.
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In reply to Climber_Bill:
I've built up so much muscle as I've got older that my 6 pack is now a 12 pack.
I've built up so much muscle as I've got older that my 6 pack is now a 12 pack.
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In reply to Climber_Bill:
Strength train and eat around 2g protein of every KG of lean body mass.
Grow a beard.
Abs and superior facial hair give you alpha-male status over anyone under 30.
Strength train and eat around 2g protein of every KG of lean body mass.
Grow a beard.
Abs and superior facial hair give you alpha-male status over anyone under 30.
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In reply to Climber_Bill:
I've read that too which makes it all the better when at 42 I knock one of the local 20-30something semi pro or pro riders off the KOM spot on a local hill..... unlike them however I may ache a bit more and take longer to recover from it. What pleases me even more is that the only rider who can match me on hills in our club is over 10 years older than me and he is way fitter than me in every other way. So I agree, you don't stop doing things because you get old, you get old because you stop doing things.
(One of girls in our club is also 8 years older than me and totally chicked me in our club time trial, so super cool, I don't fear growing old)
Cheers
Toby
I've read that too which makes it all the better when at 42 I knock one of the local 20-30something semi pro or pro riders off the KOM spot on a local hill..... unlike them however I may ache a bit more and take longer to recover from it. What pleases me even more is that the only rider who can match me on hills in our club is over 10 years older than me and he is way fitter than me in every other way. So I agree, you don't stop doing things because you get old, you get old because you stop doing things.
(One of girls in our club is also 8 years older than me and totally chicked me in our club time trial, so super cool, I don't fear growing old)
Cheers
Toby
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In reply to Mick Ward:
Ha, but like climbing, technique can more than compensate for physical ineptitude. I had a brief foray into squash when I was about 22 (I was chasing a girl who played, that's my excuse) and was pretty fit from martial arts. My squash instructor was a huge fat bloke more than twice my age. He ran me ragged without even breaking sweat. It was impressive stuff.
> My partner beats good players 50(!) years younger than her at tennis.
> Mick
Ha, but like climbing, technique can more than compensate for physical ineptitude. I had a brief foray into squash when I was about 22 (I was chasing a girl who played, that's my excuse) and was pretty fit from martial arts. My squash instructor was a huge fat bloke more than twice my age. He ran me ragged without even breaking sweat. It was impressive stuff.
In reply to Climber_Bill:
I've decided that it is essential never to make make age an excuse; if someone half my age burns me off it's because they either tried harder, trained harder, had better technique or managed their body better but NEVER because they're younger. Once you start making age an excuse, it's a slippery slope. Those I know who do have rapidly declined into middle aged, overweight decrepitude.
I've decided that it is essential never to make make age an excuse; if someone half my age burns me off it's because they either tried harder, trained harder, had better technique or managed their body better but NEVER because they're younger. Once you start making age an excuse, it's a slippery slope. Those I know who do have rapidly declined into middle aged, overweight decrepitude.
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In reply to Climber_Bill:
There seem to be quite a few climbers who are making the most of post retirement free time and money to keep going at a high standard.
I can work out yr rough age from the obscure 80s band user name!
There seem to be quite a few climbers who are making the most of post retirement free time and money to keep going at a high standard.
I can work out yr rough age from the obscure 80s band user name!
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In reply to Climber_Bill:
Second on the use it or loose it and that's for any age. I think age can be something of a mental thing; if you believe you are over the hill and all that then it's bound to actually manifest itself but if you have the attitude of age not being such a factor then that too will also be apparent. Things just take more time as you get older so knowing that and working with it helps. Somebody who has worked at their fitness throughout their life will surely be better than somebody of the same age who hasn't been quite so dedicated.
As for slippers, not so sure how great they'd be for climbing in.
Second on the use it or loose it and that's for any age. I think age can be something of a mental thing; if you believe you are over the hill and all that then it's bound to actually manifest itself but if you have the attitude of age not being such a factor then that too will also be apparent. Things just take more time as you get older so knowing that and working with it helps. Somebody who has worked at their fitness throughout their life will surely be better than somebody of the same age who hasn't been quite so dedicated.
As for slippers, not so sure how great they'd be for climbing in.
In reply to Mick Ward:
I feel lucky to be married to a similar sort of woman, even when she beats me up hills
Cheers
Toby
I feel lucky to be married to a similar sort of woman, even when she beats me up hills
Cheers
Toby
In reply to Climber_Bill:
Use it or lose it seems to be how it works.
Just been reading an interesting book about aging apparently we begin to lose muscle mass at about age 40 gradually at first and then more rapidly. So between 40-70 we lose about 15% of our lean muscle mass and then up to 30% after that. The weight gets replaced by fat.
But people who stay active and have exercised for most of their lives keep muscle for longer.
There is an interesting photo in the book which I won't post in case it's infringing copyright. But it shows the MRI images of 4 mens legs. A typical fit 40 year old which is mostly muscle, a sedentary 70 year old which is mostly fat and even the muscle is marbled with fat, a 66 year old triathlete which looks pretty similar to the 40 year old and a 76 year old English farmer (could be my dad!) which looks pretty similar to the 40 year old too. Apparently so because it's most similar to the lifestyle our ancestors led with being on their feet all the time.
Use it or lose it seems to be how it works.
Just been reading an interesting book about aging apparently we begin to lose muscle mass at about age 40 gradually at first and then more rapidly. So between 40-70 we lose about 15% of our lean muscle mass and then up to 30% after that. The weight gets replaced by fat.
But people who stay active and have exercised for most of their lives keep muscle for longer.
There is an interesting photo in the book which I won't post in case it's infringing copyright. But it shows the MRI images of 4 mens legs. A typical fit 40 year old which is mostly muscle, a sedentary 70 year old which is mostly fat and even the muscle is marbled with fat, a 66 year old triathlete which looks pretty similar to the 40 year old and a 76 year old English farmer (could be my dad!) which looks pretty similar to the 40 year old too. Apparently so because it's most similar to the lifestyle our ancestors led with being on their feet all the time.
In reply to flopsicle:
Actually her opponents are usually quite a bit older. But perhaps I've said too much already!
[To Toby] She beat me at arm wrestling the same week I did my first F7c - even though my arms are massively bigger than hers'.
As I once commented, "Over 800 hundred years of English rule. I suppose I might as well lie back and enjoy it..."
(Irish) Mick
Actually her opponents are usually quite a bit older. But perhaps I've said too much already!
[To Toby] She beat me at arm wrestling the same week I did my first F7c - even though my arms are massively bigger than hers'.
As I once commented, "Over 800 hundred years of English rule. I suppose I might as well lie back and enjoy it..."
(Irish) Mick
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In reply to PamPam:
Before the iron curtain came down, some eastern climbers used to climb in carpet slippers. I remember seeing someone do Cool Moon E6 (?) at Curbar many years ago in them.
So the answer might be that they're great for climbing in.
> As for slippers, not so sure how great they'd be for climbing in.
Before the iron curtain came down, some eastern climbers used to climb in carpet slippers. I remember seeing someone do Cool Moon E6 (?) at Curbar many years ago in them.
So the answer might be that they're great for climbing in.
Post edited at 07:15
In reply to Climber_Bill:
And hears a link to a FB group I set up that's specifically aimed at sharing knowledge related climbing for the "age-challenged":
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1544072675849853/
And hears a link to a FB group I set up that's specifically aimed at sharing knowledge related climbing for the "age-challenged":
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1544072675849853/
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In reply to Climber_Bill:
Apparently it's all 'think yourself fitter' these days. According to the pointy-heads:
"People who feel young for their age tend to live longer than those who don't. Indeed, it's thought that what psychologists call "subjective age" is likely a pretty accurate marker for a person's actual psychological and physical health. "
From http://digest.bps.org.uk/2015/11/why-do-we-feel-older-on-some-days-than.htm...
Apparently it's all 'think yourself fitter' these days. According to the pointy-heads:
"People who feel young for their age tend to live longer than those who don't. Indeed, it's thought that what psychologists call "subjective age" is likely a pretty accurate marker for a person's actual psychological and physical health. "
From http://digest.bps.org.uk/2015/11/why-do-we-feel-older-on-some-days-than.htm...
In reply to steveriley:
I do think it has a part. I remember some of the girls I worked with whinging non-stop about turning 30 as if it was the end of the world, say things like that enough and you start believing it, then it just gets becomes part of life and who you are. I hate to think how they are going to be at 40, 50 etc. Aging is a fact of life but there is a lot you can do to make it not such a big deal, it just takes a bit of effort be that having a positive attitude to age or putting in the work to being physically fit. But people do love the easy route and unfortunately nothing worth having is easily won.
I do think it has a part. I remember some of the girls I worked with whinging non-stop about turning 30 as if it was the end of the world, say things like that enough and you start believing it, then it just gets becomes part of life and who you are. I hate to think how they are going to be at 40, 50 etc. Aging is a fact of life but there is a lot you can do to make it not such a big deal, it just takes a bit of effort be that having a positive attitude to age or putting in the work to being physically fit. But people do love the easy route and unfortunately nothing worth having is easily won.
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In reply to Climber_Bill:
No reason you can't climb hard well into your 50's and 60's. Any tissue gets weaker if it isn't used. Everything just generally slows down, so you will have to train that extra bit harder, watch your diet a little more, be a little bit more careful with managing injuries. There is no magic number where your body is suddenly headed for the rubbish tip and you might as well give up!
No reason you can't climb hard well into your 50's and 60's. Any tissue gets weaker if it isn't used. Everything just generally slows down, so you will have to train that extra bit harder, watch your diet a little more, be a little bit more careful with managing injuries. There is no magic number where your body is suddenly headed for the rubbish tip and you might as well give up!
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In reply to steveriley:
There's a missing causality here. Thinking doesn't make you fitter. Thinking that age isn't a reason to stop activities, doing those activities, training for those activities does make you fitter. You can't leave out the hard work in the middle. Age if often used as an excuse: "I'm not as fast as I was, but that's because of my age. Oh, yeh, I'm not training as much now either - there's no point at my age."
> Apparently it's all 'think yourself fitter' these days.
There's a missing causality here. Thinking doesn't make you fitter. Thinking that age isn't a reason to stop activities, doing those activities, training for those activities does make you fitter. You can't leave out the hard work in the middle. Age if often used as an excuse: "I'm not as fast as I was, but that's because of my age. Oh, yeh, I'm not training as much now either - there's no point at my age."
1
Speaking personally I have not noticed any slowing up in strength gains from bouldering, climbing and training and consider myself a far stronger climber now than when in my 20's, 30's and 40's. Generally older route climbers aren't going to improve through gains in technique but should be able to convert strength gains into higher grades through weight loss, bouldering, fingerboarding. Consider a dose of tactical free weights work and yoga. Changing habits, avoiding injury and sorting out postural misalignments may be the biggest hurdles. Times running out ...
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In reply to Climber_Bill:
I'm almost 60 and after walking and climbing from age 8 took up mountain biking at age 32 then road cycling at age 55. I think it's true to say that my fitness has been on a steadily increasing curve especially since I hit the road. My son aged 16 is the same height as me and weighs 75% of my body weight and can climb and sprint well but soon fades and I have far more stamina. So as far as I'm concerned I'm fitter than ever and looking forward to 20 years of cycling and walking at least in retirement.
But yes, on a 2 week business trip in Africa (writing this from Lagos) I do find that the muscle tone dies quickly and the belt gets appreciably tighter. It soon returns to normal though when I get back to home diet and the usual DIY and home maintenance tasks.
I'm almost 60 and after walking and climbing from age 8 took up mountain biking at age 32 then road cycling at age 55. I think it's true to say that my fitness has been on a steadily increasing curve especially since I hit the road. My son aged 16 is the same height as me and weighs 75% of my body weight and can climb and sprint well but soon fades and I have far more stamina. So as far as I'm concerned I'm fitter than ever and looking forward to 20 years of cycling and walking at least in retirement.
But yes, on a 2 week business trip in Africa (writing this from Lagos) I do find that the muscle tone dies quickly and the belt gets appreciably tighter. It soon returns to normal though when I get back to home diet and the usual DIY and home maintenance tasks.
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No matter how hard you train, eat healthily, avoid injury, etc you'll lose fitness as you grow 'older'. You might find the occasional exception but for most people it's an unavoidable fact.
The only way to improve with age is if you weren't trying hard enough when you were younger. Shame on you!
So to use an extreme case - someone who did no exercise before the age of 40 would see massive increases in their fitness levels with a relatively modest increase in exercise. A person of the same age who had beasted themselves for many years has to work harder just to try and maintain their current fitness levels. So do bugger all exercise till you are 50 then tell everybody how you're fitter than when you were 20. Or work as hard as you can until you are fifty and then watch your fitness levels begin to fade. You can't train harder, longer or smarter, you can't eat more healthily or work on your technique because you've always done that. And then old age creeps up and nibbles away.
This isn't an excuse to be a sloth but you do need to be realistic. Besides if you are 'old' you probably remember when climbing didn't revolve around training.
The hardest part of getting old is the inability to 'drink six pints and still climb E1'.
pmc - (as poor a climber now as I was at 20)
The only way to improve with age is if you weren't trying hard enough when you were younger. Shame on you!
So to use an extreme case - someone who did no exercise before the age of 40 would see massive increases in their fitness levels with a relatively modest increase in exercise. A person of the same age who had beasted themselves for many years has to work harder just to try and maintain their current fitness levels. So do bugger all exercise till you are 50 then tell everybody how you're fitter than when you were 20. Or work as hard as you can until you are fifty and then watch your fitness levels begin to fade. You can't train harder, longer or smarter, you can't eat more healthily or work on your technique because you've always done that. And then old age creeps up and nibbles away.
This isn't an excuse to be a sloth but you do need to be realistic. Besides if you are 'old' you probably remember when climbing didn't revolve around training.
The hardest part of getting old is the inability to 'drink six pints and still climb E1'.
pmc - (as poor a climber now as I was at 20)
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In reply to baron:
That would be true if it wasn't wrong. which it is.
Some of us have been try-hards throughout and still improving. Throwing the towel in is just that.
Check this out for inspiration xxx.eveningsends.com/climbing/the-day-i-sent-golden-5-14b/
You need it
That would be true if it wasn't wrong. which it is.
Some of us have been try-hards throughout and still improving. Throwing the towel in is just that.
Check this out for inspiration xxx.eveningsends.com/climbing/the-day-i-sent-golden-5-14b/
You need it
1
In reply to baron:
So you weren't trying at 20 and you're not trying now.
See my post from Wednesday 16.51
> No matter how hard you train, eat healthily, avoid injury, etc you'll lose fitness as you grow 'older'............. And then old age creeps up and nibbles away.
> as poor a climber now as I was at 20
So you weren't trying at 20 and you're not trying now.
See my post from Wednesday 16.51
In reply to Robert Durran:
Oh I do try and I am still trying but I'm still no good at it. Climbing that is.
I like to think that it's more of a mental than a physical thing.
Maybe that's just an excuse?
Pmc
Oh I do try and I am still trying but I'm still no good at it. Climbing that is.
I like to think that it's more of a mental than a physical thing.
Maybe that's just an excuse?
Pmc
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In reply to shark: As another try hard who isn't prepared to throw on the towel (despite having done so in the past...) I agree that you can still improve well into your later years, it does get harder and harder. You do find it more difficult to make improvements, but as your knowledge increases you compensate loss of strength with increased old man cunning and technique.
Andy F
Andy F
In reply to shark:
I was going to post a witty reply but then I realised I was talking to a training guru.
I did find your linked article inspirational.
Posting that I'm wrong doesn't add to the discussion without a more detailed critique.
You also have no idea what I need - unless mindreading is another of your hidden talents ( said tongue in cheek in accordance with the OP's wishes).
Pmc
I was going to post a witty reply but then I realised I was talking to a training guru.
I did find your linked article inspirational.
Posting that I'm wrong doesn't add to the discussion without a more detailed critique.
You also have no idea what I need - unless mindreading is another of your hidden talents ( said tongue in cheek in accordance with the OP's wishes).
Pmc
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In reply to baron:
Im no guru but can't accept there isn't one or several angles that you haven't fully exploited yet that wouldn't improve your performance. I can't say what it is but I hang around with elite older climbers - lifers who have been hard it for 30+ -who still are open to finding new methods or weaknesses to know that unless you can play the injury card or are 70, that you can't too. My post may be provocative but if it provokes you to doubt that you aren't past it and do something about it then great
Im no guru but can't accept there isn't one or several angles that you haven't fully exploited yet that wouldn't improve your performance. I can't say what it is but I hang around with elite older climbers - lifers who have been hard it for 30+ -who still are open to finding new methods or weaknesses to know that unless you can play the injury card or are 70, that you can't too. My post may be provocative but if it provokes you to doubt that you aren't past it and do something about it then great
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In reply to shark: I've never been a dedicated climber in terms of training, diet, etc. Watching the likes of Phil Davidson and Joe Healey cruising around Pex Hill many years ago convinced me that I would never be in their league and the level that I was happy with did not need a great deal of training. " Never compete in something you're no good at". Luckily ( or unluckily some might say) there are other sports besides climbing to indulge in.
So my posts were not about me or just about climbing but more a generalisation about age and performance in all sports.
It's sad in a way to watch some athletes who were once at the top of their sport try to compete with younger, fitter people and despite their best efforts failing to do so. Good fun to watch older people burning off youngsters though!
I guess that older people shouldn't stop trying to improve but it's not throwing in the towel to know your limitations (that's disrespectful to the people and the effort and sacrifices that they've put in over the years).
And your not old at 51!
Pmc
So my posts were not about me or just about climbing but more a generalisation about age and performance in all sports.
It's sad in a way to watch some athletes who were once at the top of their sport try to compete with younger, fitter people and despite their best efforts failing to do so. Good fun to watch older people burning off youngsters though!
I guess that older people shouldn't stop trying to improve but it's not throwing in the towel to know your limitations (that's disrespectful to the people and the effort and sacrifices that they've put in over the years).
And your not old at 51!
Pmc
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In reply to baron:
Ok not going to convince but logically you can't be sure those limitations are self limiting beliefs rather than realities unless you've explored every avenue to potentially improve. Anyway I'm sure you still enjoy your climbing.
Ok not going to convince but logically you can't be sure those limitations are self limiting beliefs rather than realities unless you've explored every avenue to potentially improve. Anyway I'm sure you still enjoy your climbing.
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In reply to shark:
Yes, I guess if you never push yourself as hard as you can then you will never know just how good you could have been - or still could be!
And yes I do enjoy my climbing, I hope you achieve your goals as well.
Pmc
Yes, I guess if you never push yourself as hard as you can then you will never know just how good you could have been - or still could be!
And yes I do enjoy my climbing, I hope you achieve your goals as well.
Pmc
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