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I have recently bought a Montane Extreme Smock and into the idea of "pile lined Pertex". Due to my Gore-Tex Pro jacket failing on me and the fact that I never found it was very comfortable, I run quite hot while moving and then cool quickly when stationary. This is exacerbated by the fact that hard shells can't breath very well. I am hopefully going to get a replacment jacket and I have good ME salopettes. But I am over the so called "breathable waterproof" shell thing.
My dilema now is I have to find some solution to staying comfortable and warm on my lower half.
Thinking this through there are multiple posibilites:
Firstly
I already own a pair of "softshell" trousers (Mamot Scree pants) and like them. Wearing a base layer or not depending on the weather. I wondered if anybody aplies the idea of a belay jacket to their lower half? When moving there is no overheating and you can staying moderatly dry from wicking, the material evapourating any moisture and when stopped layering with insulaed pants. These would have to be Light, warm (primaloft gold would work well), A weather resistant fabric with high wind resistance and quick drying would be perfect with tough panels, full side zips would allow easy adornment on belays while fully cramponed up with a light internal baffle which has velcro along it so there is no need to zip up on the belay for quick on and off. I havn't found anything that really fits the bill yet.
Secondly
What are peoples experiences using "pile lined Pertex" or something similar on there bottom half? I think it is a definate option. But from some reading it seems they can be too warm for our climate, certainly out with the winter season. Another of my worries is that whilst also using a similar style top, trousers that may be cool enough for active use would be a little inadiquite when not moving. When using something like this a hard shel sort of defeats the pont due to it's drawbacks and the inherant benifits of "pile lined Pertex", however that could be a good comprimise.
Thirdly
Begrudgeingly useing hardshell trousers with some kind of highwicking combination with fleice and base layers underneath.
Lastly
Wear what I already own, which I don't like the idea of either.
Food for thought. Anyway if anyone has a system they would like to recomend I'd very much like to hear it.
Rather than a piece of clothing that is effective I am looking for a concept that works for me through out the seasons and can be adapted to any aplication. But in this instance I am talking about winter, aimed at walking and climbing in the mountains. I didn' mention my only criteria is to be comfortable, not always toasty and not always bone dry but be a comforatble as possible
Thanks
Matt
Post edited at 20:23
In reply to ModerateMatt:
I remember my mate Whisky bragging about his buffalo salopettes under his buffalo special six on a winter walk in the peak . He quickly overheated ,and ,for once shut up. Result.
They're pretty light are the salopettes. Why not walk in using lighter trousers, then chuck some buff salopettes on to climb in?
I remember my mate Whisky bragging about his buffalo salopettes under his buffalo special six on a winter walk in the peak . He quickly overheated ,and ,for once shut up. Result.
They're pretty light are the salopettes. Why not walk in using lighter trousers, then chuck some buff salopettes on to climb in?
In reply to Dave the Rave:
Cheers Dave. I hadn't thought of that. They do weigh over 1Kg so are heavier than other options if they are carried more than worn but that would do what I am asking.
Cheers
Cheers Dave. I hadn't thought of that. They do weigh over 1Kg so are heavier than other options if they are carried more than worn but that would do what I am asking.
Cheers
Post edited at 20:19
In reply to ModerateMatt:
Regarding the primaloft, montane make prism pants which I believe are primaloft filled like the prism jacket is
Regarding the primaloft, montane make prism pants which I believe are primaloft filled like the prism jacket is
In reply to ModerateMatt:
For the UK, I wear a pair of Regatta cargo trousers, and in the Alps I add some Ron Hills underneath.
For the UK, I wear a pair of Regatta cargo trousers, and in the Alps I add some Ron Hills underneath.
3
In reply to ModerateMatt:
Concept......?
System........?
Hardshell/ softshell / high-wicking, fleece, base layers, light internal baffle for your lower half.
.......Overthinking this a wee bit, sometimes you're a bit warm, sometimes a bit cold.....?
.......You don't want an effective system, why not ?
The grammar and rationality Police will finish you off before the elements will.
ps. Are you Mountain Spirit, reinvented?
Concept......?
System........?
Hardshell/ softshell / high-wicking, fleece, base layers, light internal baffle for your lower half.
.......Overthinking this a wee bit, sometimes you're a bit warm, sometimes a bit cold.....?
.......You don't want an effective system, why not ?
The grammar and rationality Police will finish you off before the elements will.
ps. Are you Mountain Spirit, reinvented?
1
1
In reply to ModerateMatt:
We're all different. What works for me won't work for you necessarily.
My concept is thin for summer. Thicker for winter and if cold add a layer. Simple!
We're all different. What works for me won't work for you necessarily.
My concept is thin for summer. Thicker for winter and if cold add a layer. Simple!
2
In reply to ModerateMatt:
I agree that while top halves are well covered by a huge choice of clothing, legs are always a problem, whether walking or skiing. I tend to stick with the tried and tested Ron Hills in all but the coldest weather, adding insulated salopettes when downhill skiing. But for winter walking and ski touring there's always a question mark over what will give protection without causing overheating.
Cyclists have got it sorted with a variety of shorts, 3/4 shorts and full length tights either Roubaix lined or unlined.
I agree that while top halves are well covered by a huge choice of clothing, legs are always a problem, whether walking or skiing. I tend to stick with the tried and tested Ron Hills in all but the coldest weather, adding insulated salopettes when downhill skiing. But for winter walking and ski touring there's always a question mark over what will give protection without causing overheating.
Cyclists have got it sorted with a variety of shorts, 3/4 shorts and full length tights either Roubaix lined or unlined.
In reply to climber34neil:
These prism trousers have been a question in my mind for winter also, especially on the belays as I run extremely cold. Any user feedback on these would be appreciated.
These prism trousers have been a question in my mind for winter also, especially on the belays as I run extremely cold. Any user feedback on these would be appreciated.
In reply to ModerateMatt:
Paramo do an overlayering trouser i.e. 'belay trousers'.
http://www.paramo-clothing.com/en-gb/explore-range/product/?pk=441DC653-5AF...
Paramo do an overlayering trouser i.e. 'belay trousers'.
http://www.paramo-clothing.com/en-gb/explore-range/product/?pk=441DC653-5AF...
4
In reply to ModerateMatt:
Do your legs sweat that much? I've overheated in hard shells before for sure but not to any great disadvantage apart from temporary mild discomfort. Softshells when it's dry, hardshells when it's wet. Simple.
Do your legs sweat that much? I've overheated in hard shells before for sure but not to any great disadvantage apart from temporary mild discomfort. Softshells when it's dry, hardshells when it's wet. Simple.
2
In reply to olddirtydoggy:
I haven't used them so I don't know about how they actually perform but I also just noticed that they do a flux trouser as well which has 60g primaloft gold so warmer still
I haven't used them so I don't know about how they actually perform but I also just noticed that they do a flux trouser as well which has 60g primaloft gold so warmer still
1
In reply to IPPurewater:
Yup, on a more constructive note, just returned from a very windy and fairly wet walk round Redmires, High Neb and Higgar, forgot how nice Paramo kit feels compared to other waterproofs , so + 1 for Paramo .
> Paramo do an overlayering trouser i.e. 'belay trousers'.
Yup, on a more constructive note, just returned from a very windy and fairly wet walk round Redmires, High Neb and Higgar, forgot how nice Paramo kit feels compared to other waterproofs , so + 1 for Paramo .
In reply to ModerateMatt:
UK winter conditions are often so variable over a day that I accept that at times I will be too hot / too cold. Carrying clothing for every single eventuality would mean a huge rucksack and / or a porter to carry it all.
Personally I use a lighter weight of softshell trousers for warmer conditions and a heavier weight for colder conditions. I also run hot so only need wicking leggings in very cold conditions such as alpine winter.
I then use lightweight full length zip overtrousers if rainy / very wet or I am likely to be static on belays for long periods.
UK winter conditions are often so variable over a day that I accept that at times I will be too hot / too cold. Carrying clothing for every single eventuality would mean a huge rucksack and / or a porter to carry it all.
Personally I use a lighter weight of softshell trousers for warmer conditions and a heavier weight for colder conditions. I also run hot so only need wicking leggings in very cold conditions such as alpine winter.
I then use lightweight full length zip overtrousers if rainy / very wet or I am likely to be static on belays for long periods.
In reply to Ade in Sheffield:
I had a similar quest last year and also settled on Paramo trousers. I ended up with the Enduro trousers (heavily discounted), but I'd go for the Cascada II if I had my time again as the 'crampon patches' are a joke, and generally the extra cost isn't warranted. I also overheat massively and basically melt if walking in hard shell trousers, but having 3/4 vents made the Enduro just about cool enough for walking, and warm enough for standing around on a cold belay (they claim you can bivvy in them). I think buffalo would be far too hot.
I also mistakenly bought the Montane Extreme jacket a few years ago. For me it's just far too warm to wear on the walk in, and far too bulky to carry, so it's now demoted to winter working/basecamp and roadside euro-ice (but I love it when it does work as just being able to wear it and not worry about what happens is ideal). One day I might get around to adding upper arm/pit zips and it might become used in a wider range of conditions. I think venting pockets is a fundamentally flawed idea (what's the point in pockets which a) let in the cold when you want to warm your hands, and b) can't be used to store things as you want them flapping open half the time).
Edit: Also, I think belay trousers would be far too much faff to keep taking off and putting on, and anything light enough to warrant being carried most of the time is just going to get destroyed by pointies, rock etc..
I had a similar quest last year and also settled on Paramo trousers. I ended up with the Enduro trousers (heavily discounted), but I'd go for the Cascada II if I had my time again as the 'crampon patches' are a joke, and generally the extra cost isn't warranted. I also overheat massively and basically melt if walking in hard shell trousers, but having 3/4 vents made the Enduro just about cool enough for walking, and warm enough for standing around on a cold belay (they claim you can bivvy in them). I think buffalo would be far too hot.
I also mistakenly bought the Montane Extreme jacket a few years ago. For me it's just far too warm to wear on the walk in, and far too bulky to carry, so it's now demoted to winter working/basecamp and roadside euro-ice (but I love it when it does work as just being able to wear it and not worry about what happens is ideal). One day I might get around to adding upper arm/pit zips and it might become used in a wider range of conditions. I think venting pockets is a fundamentally flawed idea (what's the point in pockets which a) let in the cold when you want to warm your hands, and b) can't be used to store things as you want them flapping open half the time).
Edit: Also, I think belay trousers would be far too much faff to keep taking off and putting on, and anything light enough to warrant being carried most of the time is just going to get destroyed by pointies, rock etc..
Post edited at 17:48
1
In reply to ModerateMatt:
Neo shell trousers. Genuinely breathable and waterproof. Nice and comfy enough to wear on their own as your only trouser in warmer seasons.
I've considered a pair of the Montane Flux pants but I think I'd dissolve in my own sweat with them on. Same softshell trousers year round with full leg base layer in winter and neo shell in top when required.
Neo shell trousers. Genuinely breathable and waterproof. Nice and comfy enough to wear on their own as your only trouser in warmer seasons.
I've considered a pair of the Montane Flux pants but I think I'd dissolve in my own sweat with them on. Same softshell trousers year round with full leg base layer in winter and neo shell in top when required.
1
In reply to ModerateMatt:
I own softshell Mamot Scree pants as well as you, quite good but just a bit on the light side for winter in not being as water and wind proof than thicker softshells, have been looking for suitable upgrade myself but having shortish legs find the addition of ankle zips on most makes them unsuitable for shortening, the Scree pants being available in a short leg.
I own Paramo Torres synthetic insulated pants and like them as I usually spend a bit of time sitting about trying to recover or take pictures. Rab do a version in Primaloft Gold called Photon pants which look good, my Torres pants and a Blizzard survival bag could come in handy if I ever get stuck up a hill.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=628078
I own softshell Mamot Scree pants as well as you, quite good but just a bit on the light side for winter in not being as water and wind proof than thicker softshells, have been looking for suitable upgrade myself but having shortish legs find the addition of ankle zips on most makes them unsuitable for shortening, the Scree pants being available in a short leg.
I own Paramo Torres synthetic insulated pants and like them as I usually spend a bit of time sitting about trying to recover or take pictures. Rab do a version in Primaloft Gold called Photon pants which look good, my Torres pants and a Blizzard survival bag could come in handy if I ever get stuck up a hill.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=628078
Post edited at 20:49
In reply to ModerateMatt:
Excellent idea. I like the idea of a belay jacket lower equivalent. However I think the best thing for this would just be to forget the idea of trousers and wear a long skirt instead. It would be far quicker to put on, Could be far more waterproof (because it doesn't need ventilation), and would allow for toilet breaks easily too. I'll be second to wear one if you go first.
> I already own a pair of "softshell" trousers (Mamot Scree pants) and like them. Wearing a base layer or not depending on the weather. I wondered if anybody aplies the idea of a belay jacket to their lower half? When moving there is no overheating and you can staying moderatly dry from wicking, the material evapourating any moisture and when stopped layering with insulaed pants. These would have to be Light, warm (primaloft gold would work well), A weather resistant fabric with high wind resistance and quick drying would be perfect with tough panels, full side zips would allow easy adornment on belays while fully cramponed up with a light internal baffle which has velcro along it so there is no need to zip up on the belay for quick on and off. I havn't found anything that really fits the bill yet.
Excellent idea. I like the idea of a belay jacket lower equivalent. However I think the best thing for this would just be to forget the idea of trousers and wear a long skirt instead. It would be far quicker to put on, Could be far more waterproof (because it doesn't need ventilation), and would allow for toilet breaks easily too. I'll be second to wear one if you go first.
In reply to SenzuBean:
When aid climbing in winter was popular, we solved the problem of the bored cold belayer.
Karrimat
Sleeping bag
Duvet
Flask
Biscuits
Newspaper.
> Excellent idea. I like the idea of a belay jacket lower equivalent. However I think the best thing for this would just be to forget the idea of trousers and wear a long skirt instead. It would be far quicker to put on, Could be far more waterproof (because it doesn't need ventilation), and would allow for toilet breaks easily too. I'll be second to wear one if you go first.
When aid climbing in winter was popular, we solved the problem of the bored cold belayer.
Karrimat
Sleeping bag
Duvet
Flask
Biscuits
Newspaper.
2
In reply to SenzuBean:
Some years ago IIRC it was Marmot that did belay shorts - supposedly much quicker and easier to get on and off and were said to really work. But of course they looked bizarre so disappeared after one season.
Some years ago IIRC it was Marmot that did belay shorts - supposedly much quicker and easier to get on and off and were said to really work. But of course they looked bizarre so disappeared after one season.
In reply to TobyA:
Well, it's my a**e that seems to get cold, so I wear a pair of long cycling-type shorts over my base layer, (without the pad of course). I got 'em from M&S, sold as under-crackers. Combine those with my Cioch bespoke climbing troos (basically Paramo, but made to fit me, a real novelty), and I am comfortable on the belay. Can be vented for the walk-in.
Use the same combination for winter walking, but with variable weight walking trousers depending on conditions, usually with a hard shell by necessity.
As the man says above, there is no perfect combination, you just have to work with what you have.
> Some years ago IIRC it was Marmot that did belay shorts - supposedly much quicker and easier to get on and off and were said to really work. But of course they looked bizarre so disappeared after one season.
Well, it's my a**e that seems to get cold, so I wear a pair of long cycling-type shorts over my base layer, (without the pad of course). I got 'em from M&S, sold as under-crackers. Combine those with my Cioch bespoke climbing troos (basically Paramo, but made to fit me, a real novelty), and I am comfortable on the belay. Can be vented for the walk-in.
Use the same combination for winter walking, but with variable weight walking trousers depending on conditions, usually with a hard shell by necessity.
As the man says above, there is no perfect combination, you just have to work with what you have.
In reply to iksander:
Which are pretty popular on the continent for cross country skiing. Most brands do a primaloft pair of shorts or skirt. It'd be a faff with a harness though. Most brands also do primaloft "belay trousers", eg ME do compressor trousers but they are aimed at bigger higher altitude stuff than Scotland.
Which are pretty popular on the continent for cross country skiing. Most brands do a primaloft pair of shorts or skirt. It'd be a faff with a harness though. Most brands also do primaloft "belay trousers", eg ME do compressor trousers but they are aimed at bigger higher altitude stuff than Scotland.
In reply to TobyA:
Hmmm... my homemade salopette liners might work for that; 3/4 length to reach the top of ski boots, but can be opened up at the sides and closed with velcro tabs. Luckily for me, I was wearing these when I ended up in intensive care at Briancon, after skiing off a 10m drop in Serre Chevalier. My Gore-tex salopettes also had full-length side zips, so they didn't need to cut anything off...
They also look awful when not worn inside salopettes...
Hmmm... my homemade salopette liners might work for that; 3/4 length to reach the top of ski boots, but can be opened up at the sides and closed with velcro tabs. Luckily for me, I was wearing these when I ended up in intensive care at Briancon, after skiing off a 10m drop in Serre Chevalier. My Gore-tex salopettes also had full-length side zips, so they didn't need to cut anything off...
They also look awful when not worn inside salopettes...
In reply to TobyA:
XC and downhill ski racing apparel actually still sells that kind of stuff... So thinsulate/synthdown overshorts with full zips on both sides (so can be taken off, without takin' off your skis).
That said, Klättermusen (and perhaps some others as well) are now making "belay" skirts. That is an insulated (down or synth) skirt with a full sidezip... And they are unisex models, not for ladies only...
I might be tempted to make one myself (Climashield Apex ~160 g/m2 is not too expensive @ Shelby)...
As for gettin' sweaty balls in hardshell troos... yes, but that was during warm spring touring season in the sun... I was also sweating on the upper body, despite only having a thin wickin' t-shirt on. When winter climbing, that has never been a problem (quite the opposite, actually).
But I have sort of found the best troos for winter climbing. Patagucci Mixed Guide pants (or something similar 'Ryx Alpha Comps). Mixture of hardshell where there's alot of contact with cold/wet stuff... and then softshell where there aint. Looks good to boost, in bright red (old Patagucci) or bright Lime green/Yellow (new 'Ryx).
XC and downhill ski racing apparel actually still sells that kind of stuff... So thinsulate/synthdown overshorts with full zips on both sides (so can be taken off, without takin' off your skis).
That said, Klättermusen (and perhaps some others as well) are now making "belay" skirts. That is an insulated (down or synth) skirt with a full sidezip... And they are unisex models, not for ladies only...
I might be tempted to make one myself (Climashield Apex ~160 g/m2 is not too expensive @ Shelby)...
As for gettin' sweaty balls in hardshell troos... yes, but that was during warm spring touring season in the sun... I was also sweating on the upper body, despite only having a thin wickin' t-shirt on. When winter climbing, that has never been a problem (quite the opposite, actually).
But I have sort of found the best troos for winter climbing. Patagucci Mixed Guide pants (or something similar 'Ryx Alpha Comps). Mixture of hardshell where there's alot of contact with cold/wet stuff... and then softshell where there aint. Looks good to boost, in bright red (old Patagucci) or bright Lime green/Yellow (new 'Ryx).
In reply to HeMa: Just the thing for sweaty balls Dave Macleod climbing in a kilt
http://davemacleod.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/other-week-mentioned-fun-wee-shoo...
http://davemacleod.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/other-week-mentioned-fun-wee-shoo...
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