This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Right, I did my first score class this weekend and amassed a total of 330 points, only to lose them all by coming in too late. I assume this is the punter mistake. Having only run line courses before I was somewhat overwhelmed by the choices I had!
So what are your top tips? How do you know when to start ditching the plan and head for home? I reckon if I'd have missed one checkpoint I'd have managed to sneak in under the 4hrs30mins but would still have lost half of my points.
So what are your top tips? How do you know when to start ditching the plan and head for home? I reckon if I'd have missed one checkpoint I'd have managed to sneak in under the 4hrs30mins but would still have lost half of my points.
In reply to galpinos:
Know the distance plus height gained you can cover for the length of time allowed. Apply that to the map (piece of string). Routes are often set to couple of optimum strategies - hoover up the smaller point cp or go for a few higher scoring ones. I've only run a couple of events where it was possible for the whole course to be completed (by the very best!) but it does happen.
Know the distance plus height gained you can cover for the length of time allowed. Apply that to the map (piece of string). Routes are often set to couple of optimum strategies - hoover up the smaller point cp or go for a few higher scoring ones. I've only run a couple of events where it was possible for the whole course to be completed (by the very best!) but it does happen.
In reply to galpinos:
Experience Now that you've returned late you'll have a better idea of what's feasible.
Other than that - come up with a plan that's easy to vary, with detours off the main route, rather than finding yourself in the far corner of the map with no choice other than head to the finish as fast as possible.
Though yesterday (assuming this was the RAB) was much harder than usual due to the ridiculous head winds on the return stretch!
Well done on getting 330 in any case, I only got 280 before lateness deductions
Experience Now that you've returned late you'll have a better idea of what's feasible.
Other than that - come up with a plan that's easy to vary, with detours off the main route, rather than finding yourself in the far corner of the map with no choice other than head to the finish as fast as possible.
Though yesterday (assuming this was the RAB) was much harder than usual due to the ridiculous head winds on the return stretch!
Well done on getting 330 in any case, I only got 280 before lateness deductions
In reply to galpinos:
If you haven't already entered, then give this ago - it's probably going to be on the same area as yesterday so at least you'll know the terrain.
http://www.explorerevents.co.uk/calendar-of-events/
If you haven't already entered, then give this ago - it's probably going to be on the same area as yesterday so at least you'll know the terrain.
http://www.explorerevents.co.uk/calendar-of-events/
In reply to galpinos:
Couple of points...
1. When I was doing lots of these score events I would put some effort into calibrating myself in two ways: (a) develop a version of Naismiths rule but based on the map you are going to use, I.e., so you just estimate the distance and count the contour lines climb to get the time prediction. Over short distances this can be very useful to judge "how long will it take to pick up that extra control point?" And (b) Learn the speed of you various 'gaits'. You can then use the latter - which takes better account of odd terrain - to modify the former.
2. If I was doing an 8 hour event, I would start with an 8 hour piece of string to get a first guess at a plausible strategy for the day. The string obviously has to guess the average amount of climb and the terrain to some extent, but it's only there as a starting point for a plan. At this point you should also get a idea of how various checkpoint should map onto you time allowance so you don't end up too late. You really need to pay attention to the clock in the early stages and adapt the plan if you're slower or faster than expected.
3. In choosing a route, try to give yourself some options in the latter stages. Are there extras you can pick up towards the end if you have time? Are there controls you can skip if you're late? Don't end up with a long run into the finish. Try to take you gambles early in the day.
4. In planning pay special attention to any potential surprises near the end (when you have little leeway). Is there a potentially awkward stream crossing? Do I have to get through some forest or brashings? Either should ring alarm bells.
5. Basically it's all about make a robust plan with fallback options at the start and constantly reviewing and modifying it as you go round.
Couple of points...
1. When I was doing lots of these score events I would put some effort into calibrating myself in two ways: (a) develop a version of Naismiths rule but based on the map you are going to use, I.e., so you just estimate the distance and count the contour lines climb to get the time prediction. Over short distances this can be very useful to judge "how long will it take to pick up that extra control point?" And (b) Learn the speed of you various 'gaits'. You can then use the latter - which takes better account of odd terrain - to modify the former.
2. If I was doing an 8 hour event, I would start with an 8 hour piece of string to get a first guess at a plausible strategy for the day. The string obviously has to guess the average amount of climb and the terrain to some extent, but it's only there as a starting point for a plan. At this point you should also get a idea of how various checkpoint should map onto you time allowance so you don't end up too late. You really need to pay attention to the clock in the early stages and adapt the plan if you're slower or faster than expected.
3. In choosing a route, try to give yourself some options in the latter stages. Are there extras you can pick up towards the end if you have time? Are there controls you can skip if you're late? Don't end up with a long run into the finish. Try to take you gambles early in the day.
4. In planning pay special attention to any potential surprises near the end (when you have little leeway). Is there a potentially awkward stream crossing? Do I have to get through some forest or brashings? Either should ring alarm bells.
5. Basically it's all about make a robust plan with fallback options at the start and constantly reviewing and modifying it as you go round.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
It was indeed the Rab, just checked the results, you did really well! You may have had deductions but still scored well. I ended up heading up to Black Hill, going in a clockwise direction, most people seemed to be going anti-clockwise. I did see Jasmin Paris calmly trot by looking pretty fresh as I was stumbling about in the tussocks. It was reasonably challenging weather but in the back of mind was the thought, "it's only 4hrs and at the end of it, you get to go home, not sit in a damp tent and do it all over again tomorrow".
My main errors (I think) were:
- I struggled with the 1:30000, I think my head thought it was 1:40000 like normal so judging distance was difficult (I know, use the squares etc...), I kept thinking I was travelling really fast!
- I didn't count for how tired I'd feel at the end - I really slowed from 3hrs15mins to 4hrs (final race to the finish adrenaline picked me up for he last half hour
- I got sucked into a checkpoint I should have abandoned on the way back, not only did it take time I didn't have, the climb up to it blew my legs.
- Not leaving enough time for the "return leg" with extra checkpoint options - I had a too strict route that I tried to stick to and without that flexibility, came unstuck!
It was indeed the Rab, just checked the results, you did really well! You may have had deductions but still scored well. I ended up heading up to Black Hill, going in a clockwise direction, most people seemed to be going anti-clockwise. I did see Jasmin Paris calmly trot by looking pretty fresh as I was stumbling about in the tussocks. It was reasonably challenging weather but in the back of mind was the thought, "it's only 4hrs and at the end of it, you get to go home, not sit in a damp tent and do it all over again tomorrow".
My main errors (I think) were:
- I struggled with the 1:30000, I think my head thought it was 1:40000 like normal so judging distance was difficult (I know, use the squares etc...), I kept thinking I was travelling really fast!
- I didn't count for how tired I'd feel at the end - I really slowed from 3hrs15mins to 4hrs (final race to the finish adrenaline picked me up for he last half hour
- I got sucked into a checkpoint I should have abandoned on the way back, not only did it take time I didn't have, the climb up to it blew my legs.
- Not leaving enough time for the "return leg" with extra checkpoint options - I had a too strict route that I tried to stick to and without that flexibility, came unstuck!
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Round 4 clashes with the Litton Christmas Cracker but I've bookmarked the page for next year!
Round 4 clashes with the Litton Christmas Cracker but I've bookmarked the page for next year!
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
I've just looked at the site. Wow, 50 points lost for each minute over, I won't stand a chance.....
I've just looked at the site. Wow, 50 points lost for each minute over, I won't stand a chance.....
In reply to galpinos:
Unless you are very experienced then a minute or two at the start planning is seldom wasted. Or pick something that is clearly a good start point and walk to it, reading and planning the whole way there, then pick up the pace thereafter.
Know your strengths, are you a poor naver but fast to go for the outliers, or better to pick up the more technical ones. Often I might thrash it across the flat, downhill and power walk the steepest hills, as that is my thinking and map time so once it's faster ground again (for me), I'm off again.
Close to home I will identify a few that are generally low points, but I can pick up if I have time in the bank. I will aim to get back in time for them, but little is lost if I have to head straight to the finish. Also knowing roughly how far the finish is and how long to get back doesn't harm, especially if you fold the map up as you go, it's good to view the bigger picture occasionally to stay on top of things if you are working at an irregular scale.
I try to make a rough circle, but will zig zag a little left and right as I go, to fit in as many as possible. I never go for a roughly straight line out to the farthest and back. A kind of narrow triangle, I think you limit your options and shooting off side wards for extra involves a lot of extra leg work.
Practice, do some shorter normal orienteering score events. Or find some permanent orienteering courses, but treat it as a score and test yourself. It's all about planning, some basic maths etc... all whilst blowing out of your ar$e going uphill, or trying not to go tumbling down one!!
On open starts, don't forget to start your watch, a common mistake of mine where I end up estimating how long I've been going etc... it rarely ends well.
Unless you are very experienced then a minute or two at the start planning is seldom wasted. Or pick something that is clearly a good start point and walk to it, reading and planning the whole way there, then pick up the pace thereafter.
Know your strengths, are you a poor naver but fast to go for the outliers, or better to pick up the more technical ones. Often I might thrash it across the flat, downhill and power walk the steepest hills, as that is my thinking and map time so once it's faster ground again (for me), I'm off again.
Close to home I will identify a few that are generally low points, but I can pick up if I have time in the bank. I will aim to get back in time for them, but little is lost if I have to head straight to the finish. Also knowing roughly how far the finish is and how long to get back doesn't harm, especially if you fold the map up as you go, it's good to view the bigger picture occasionally to stay on top of things if you are working at an irregular scale.
I try to make a rough circle, but will zig zag a little left and right as I go, to fit in as many as possible. I never go for a roughly straight line out to the farthest and back. A kind of narrow triangle, I think you limit your options and shooting off side wards for extra involves a lot of extra leg work.
Practice, do some shorter normal orienteering score events. Or find some permanent orienteering courses, but treat it as a score and test yourself. It's all about planning, some basic maths etc... all whilst blowing out of your ar$e going uphill, or trying not to go tumbling down one!!
On open starts, don't forget to start your watch, a common mistake of mine where I end up estimating how long I've been going etc... it rarely ends well.
Post edited at 16:37
In reply to summo:
I think there's a soft skill involved, a bit like maintaining 'map contact' without constantly checking your map, but chronological, i.e., having a feel for when you are going slower/faster than you should be by your estimate. Initially you have to keep checking your watch and progress, but eventually it becomes more automatic: "Damn, that last couple of km was harder than I expected. Heather deeper? Terrain less runnable than I'd expected? Do I need to adjust my plan? Choose a different route?" It comes with practice.
I think there's a soft skill involved, a bit like maintaining 'map contact' without constantly checking your map, but chronological, i.e., having a feel for when you are going slower/faster than you should be by your estimate. Initially you have to keep checking your watch and progress, but eventually it becomes more automatic: "Damn, that last couple of km was harder than I expected. Heather deeper? Terrain less runnable than I'd expected? Do I need to adjust my plan? Choose a different route?" It comes with practice.
In reply to galpinos:
Better than last year, when you lost all points even if a single second late!
> I've just looked at the site. Wow, 50 points lost for each minute over, I won't stand a chance.....
Better than last year, when you lost all points even if a single second late!
In reply to Marek:
I'd forgotten about the piece of string - yes, a very good idea, I used to do that. These days I can do it by eye, I've obviously done too many of these events!
Another thing I do is to estimate as I go round - about half an hour to the next checkpoint, etc. I'll often base my route on these shorter sections - if I get to the decision-point (path junction or whatever) within a certain time then I'll do that extra control, otherwise the terrain/fitness/whatever is against me so I'll miss it.
I'd forgotten about the piece of string - yes, a very good idea, I used to do that. These days I can do it by eye, I've obviously done too many of these events!
Another thing I do is to estimate as I go round - about half an hour to the next checkpoint, etc. I'll often base my route on these shorter sections - if I get to the decision-point (path junction or whatever) within a certain time then I'll do that extra control, otherwise the terrain/fitness/whatever is against me so I'll miss it.
In reply to Marek:
of course, just like climbing, you know by feel when it's all coming together and when it's not. I think it varies on the person and the mood of the day, sometimes it just happens you can run in and out of controls, without feeling like you are really having to focus on anything, it just all some how happens... on other days it's a full on mental strain concentrating and analysing the whole way round.
> I think there's a soft skill involved, a bit like maintaining 'map contact' without constantly checking your map, but chronological, i.e., having a feel for when you are going slower/faster than you should be by your estimate. Initially you have to keep checking your watch and progress, but eventually it becomes more automatic: "Damn, that last couple of km was harder than I expected. Heather deeper? Terrain less runnable than I'd expected? Do I need to adjust my plan? Choose a different route?" It comes with practice.
of course, just like climbing, you know by feel when it's all coming together and when it's not. I think it varies on the person and the mood of the day, sometimes it just happens you can run in and out of controls, without feeling like you are really having to focus on anything, it just all some how happens... on other days it's a full on mental strain concentrating and analysing the whole way round.
In reply to summo:
...and sometimes you don't feel like you are really having to focus on anything, and end up running off the edge of the map
...and sometimes you don't feel like you are really having to focus on anything, and end up running off the edge of the map
In reply to galpinos:
I find being useless and needing to recover gives plenty of planning time!
My first was the explore event in Old Glossop so know the area gave a good idea of when to bail and head for the pub, I think as some have sort of said it is the ability to turn back and not get suckered into 'just one more' that will allow you to return on time.
And anyway, wheres the fun in being able to get all the points in time on your first one!
I find being useless and needing to recover gives plenty of planning time!
My first was the explore event in Old Glossop so know the area gave a good idea of when to bail and head for the pub, I think as some have sort of said it is the ability to turn back and not get suckered into 'just one more' that will allow you to return on time.
And anyway, wheres the fun in being able to get all the points in time on your first one!
In reply to galpinos:
I disagree with everyone who is saying about pacing, string, altitude gain before you set off. I think the most important thing is to just set off with a general route in mind and have plenty options on the way back.
Make sure you are on your way back after 2 hours. Then in the last couple of hours decide how many of your options you are going to take and constantly reassess your chance of making it by looking at how far it is to go - this is where knowing your likely pace come in - not at the start.
Something which most people miss on the RAB is that so long as you have scored over 240 points it makes sense to be 5 minutes late back, so long as you can use that extra 5 minutes to gain some points. As you only loose 1point/minute for the first 5, and if you score over 240 you are gaining more than 1 point/minute. So work on being back between 4 hours and 4 hours 5 minutes.
I got screwed over at this weekends RAB by some really rough terrain and that headwind on the way back, ended up 8 minutes late and missing out a couple of my options.
Still got enough to win the series though, so I'm pretty pleased!
I disagree with everyone who is saying about pacing, string, altitude gain before you set off. I think the most important thing is to just set off with a general route in mind and have plenty options on the way back.
Make sure you are on your way back after 2 hours. Then in the last couple of hours decide how many of your options you are going to take and constantly reassess your chance of making it by looking at how far it is to go - this is where knowing your likely pace come in - not at the start.
Something which most people miss on the RAB is that so long as you have scored over 240 points it makes sense to be 5 minutes late back, so long as you can use that extra 5 minutes to gain some points. As you only loose 1point/minute for the first 5, and if you score over 240 you are gaining more than 1 point/minute. So work on being back between 4 hours and 4 hours 5 minutes.
I got screwed over at this weekends RAB by some really rough terrain and that headwind on the way back, ended up 8 minutes late and missing out a couple of my options.
Still got enough to win the series though, so I'm pretty pleased!
In reply to ablackett:
But until you've got a few events under your belt, how do you ensure that your general route isn't too long? It can be hard to gauge the length of a route just be glancing at a map. If it is too long then by the time you realise, there may not be any reasonable return options other than retracing your steps and scoring nothing more. I used to find the use of a bit of string was really useful. Measured to my maximum expected distance at that map scale, it could easily be laid on the map to immediately discount my wilder ambitions!
It depends hugely on the terrain and route options, but for a 4 hour event I usually reckon on 2.5 hours before heading for home. On Sunday I was at my farthest point in 2'25", which would have got me back on time if it weren't for that headwind!
> I disagree with everyone who is saying about pacing, string, altitude gain before you set off. I think the most important thing is to just set off with a general route in mind and have plenty options on the way back.
But until you've got a few events under your belt, how do you ensure that your general route isn't too long? It can be hard to gauge the length of a route just be glancing at a map. If it is too long then by the time you realise, there may not be any reasonable return options other than retracing your steps and scoring nothing more. I used to find the use of a bit of string was really useful. Measured to my maximum expected distance at that map scale, it could easily be laid on the map to immediately discount my wilder ambitions!
> Make sure you are on your way back after 2 hours.
It depends hugely on the terrain and route options, but for a 4 hour event I usually reckon on 2.5 hours before heading for home. On Sunday I was at my farthest point in 2'25", which would have got me back on time if it weren't for that headwind!
In reply to ablackett:
I think i need to dial back my ambition as I'm not the best runner and my planned route would have got me 390 points, I got to 330 points worth of checkpoints but should have aimed for maybe 260/280 ish points worth and got back in time.
In reply to the thread:
Thanks fpor all the advice/suggestions. I like the idea of the string but I get a bit "race excited" and normally bound off straight away so not sure I have the discipline to actually use the string whilst vital seconds tick away......
I think i need to dial back my ambition as I'm not the best runner and my planned route would have got me 390 points, I got to 330 points worth of checkpoints but should have aimed for maybe 260/280 ish points worth and got back in time.
In reply to the thread:
Thanks fpor all the advice/suggestions. I like the idea of the string but I get a bit "race excited" and normally bound off straight away so not sure I have the discipline to actually use the string whilst vital seconds tick away......
In reply to galpinos:
Another similar event in the same area
http://saddleworth-runners.co.uk/races/new-chew/
(details not on the site yet but apparently next year's os on Feb 21st)
Another similar event in the same area
http://saddleworth-runners.co.uk/races/new-chew/
(details not on the site yet but apparently next year's os on Feb 21st)
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Cheers!
It's on the radar but not sure whether I'll be able to make it, there's a new mini-galpinos due at the end of Jan so it might come a bit early!
Cheers!
It's on the radar but not sure whether I'll be able to make it, there's a new mini-galpinos due at the end of Jan so it might come a bit early!
1
In reply to galpinos:
That's why the string is so useful. It controls the over-excitement and over-enthusiasm at the start. It's not so much a way of choosing a particular circuit - more a way of eliminating unrealistic or high-risk options.
> Thanks fpor all the advice/suggestions. I like the idea of the string but I get a bit "race excited" and normally bound off straight away so not sure I have the discipline to actually use the string whilst vital seconds tick away......
That's why the string is so useful. It controls the over-excitement and over-enthusiasm at the start. It's not so much a way of choosing a particular circuit - more a way of eliminating unrealistic or high-risk options.
1
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...